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Re: SV: SV: SV: [ANE-2] Re: Qeiyafa discoveries

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  • Xianhua
    Many thanks! Sincerely yours, Xianhua 2012-05-10 ... Prof. Xianhua Wang, PhD School of History and Culture Sichuan University, CHINA
    Message 1 of 30 , May 10, 2012
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      Many thanks!

      Sincerely yours,

      Xianhua
      2012-05-10

      ---
      Prof. Xianhua Wang, PhD
      School of History and Culture
      Sichuan University, CHINA

      At 15:53 on 2012-05-10, "Niels Peter Lemche"<npl@...> wrote:

      >Dear Xianhua,
      >
      >London would always be a superb place but I do not know the people there now-a-days. I can ask Philip Davies for names.
      >Here we have such activities in Copenhagen as well as in Aarhus. Aarhus is mostly classical archaeology but also have a fine tradition in Scandinavian archaeology (as does Copenhagen qua the National Museum), but the Niebuhr department may have something to offer. But still, London is presumably the best place for Middle Eastern studies.
      >
      >English language will not be a problem wherever you choose.
      >
      >NP
    • eliot braun
      Raz et al.   We live in the real world, unfortunately. I myself would like to see no reason for salvage work, but that is not realistic, as you all probably
      Message 2 of 30 , May 10, 2012
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        Raz et al.
          We live in the real world, unfortunately. I myself would like to see no reason for salvage work, but that is not realistic, as you all probably know. Recently I received a blog on the terrible problem of looting. I agree that it is a problem, but I also think, and I've stated this, that the bulk of destruction of the archaeological record around the world is due to development by officially sanctioned polities. Far more is destroyed by govts. than by looters in most countries. That is a crime that our successors will castigate us for. 
           Raz you are thinking of your experiences in Israel. I have news for you. They are virtually the same around the world in the ANE and in the Americas, where I've been occasionally. Salvage work is an art. You cannot imagine what I felt like when I worked at Yiftah'el in Israel and realized that in less than a week they were about to destroy the site! It prompted me to take a bulldozer (yes, a damnded bulldozer) to dig a deep trench to see what, if anything might be destroyed. I ended up destroying a part of a PPNB house, and saving a large part of the site for ca. 20 years until recently when another group did some more work. I paid a very heavy personal price for that and for writing that I thought that there was entirely too much digging going on; I still do. 
           Raz, you are a gadfly, which we need, but had you had the real feel for salvage work you might have stayed and contributed. I did it for 28 years and I'm proud that I managed, despite some really difficult times, to do some work I'm proud of. 
            
         
        Eliot Braun, Ph D
        Sr. Fellow WF Albright Institute of Archaeological Research, Jerusalem
        Associate Researcher Centre de Recherche Français de Jérusalem
        PO Box 21, Har Adar 90836 Israel
        Tel 972-2-5345687, Cell 972-50-2231096


        ________________________________
        From: Raz Kletter <kletterr@...>
        To: ANE-2@yahoogroups.com
        Sent: Thursday, May 10, 2012 9:13 AM
        Subject: Re: [ANE-2] Re: Qeiyafa discoveries


         
        Eliot,
        Salvage excavations must too be made in a scientific pace - just like
        Tel Rehov (an example not in dispute). In 95% of salvage excavations, there
        is no justification at all for pressuring the archaeologists to finish
        fast. If a house or a road or some military installation will be finished a
        month or two earlier/ later, it affects mainly budgets, and even that,
        by very few percents.
        Very few excavations are urgent, when delays are life-threatening or
        cause considerable public inconvenience; but these are *rare*.
        The pressures "to finish fast no matter what" are many times supported
        or even produced by archaeologists in power, who do not understand or do
        not care for archaeology, but for budgets and profits. They do not let
        excavation managers decide the pace of excavation. This is true everywhere,
        but especially for salvage excavations of "private" university companies,
        whose profits go to the pockets of universities and archaeological
        departments.
        A person who created and continues to encourage this system complains
        now about a hasty pace of excavation; but only because its finds do not fit
        his theory. The word for it is hypocricity.
        In addition, even for Megiddo, one could find squares or loci excavated
        faster than the pace set as an example.
        Regardless: Douglas, you will end up eating your hat for lunch. An
        occupation layer must be excavated with the same meticolous care,
        whether the site has 1 layer or 1456. Removing fast a late layer in order
        to expose the Iron Age is an archaeological sin. With some other points I
        sympathise; but in these matters your defence ends up a discrimination.
        Raz Kletter

        [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]




        [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
      • Niels Peter Lemche
        Dear Eliott, If you or somebody can find it, Dario Pfoh wrote a hilarious play about this fifty years ago (saw it in 1962). It has to do with a situation in
        Message 3 of 30 , May 10, 2012
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          Dear Eliott,

          If you or somebody can find it, Dario Pfoh wrote a hilarious play about this fifty years ago (saw it in 1962). It has to do with a situation in Italy where salvation excavations may delay a building project for several years.

          Maybe somebody here knows the title.

          Niels Peter Lemche



          -----Oprindelig meddelelse-----
          Fra: ANE-2@yahoogroups.com [mailto:ANE-2@yahoogroups.com] På vegne af eliot braun
          Sendt: den 10 maj 2012 18:53
          Til: ANE-2@yahoogroups.com
          Emne: Re: [ANE-2] Re: salvage archaeology

          Raz et al.
            We live in the real world, unfortunately. I myself would like to see no reason for salvage work, but that is not realistic, as you all probably know. Recently I received a blog on the terrible problem of looting. I agree that it is a problem, but I also think, and I've stated this, that the bulk of destruction of the archaeological record around the world is due to development by officially sanctioned polities. Far more is destroyed by govts. than by looters in most countries. That is a crime that our successors will castigate us for. 
             Raz you are thinking of your experiences in Israel. I have news for you. They are virtually the same around the world in the ANE and in the Americas, where I've been occasionally. Salvage work is an art. You cannot imagine what I felt like when I worked at Yiftah'el in Israel and realized that in less than a week they were about to destroy the site! It prompted me to take a bulldozer (yes, a damnded bulldozer) to dig a deep trench to see what, if anything might be destroyed. I ended up destroying a part of a PPNB house, and saving a large part of the site for ca. 20 years until recently when another group did some more work. I paid a very heavy personal price for that and for writing that I thought that there was entirely too much digging going on; I still do. 
             Raz, you are a gadfly, which we need, but had you had the real feel for salvage work you might have stayed and contributed. I did it for 28 years and I'm proud that I managed, despite some really difficult times, to do some work I'm proud of. 
              
           
          Eliot Braun, Ph D
          Sr. Fellow WF Albright Institute of Archaeological Research, Jerusalem
          Associate Researcher Centre de Recherche Français de Jérusalem
          PO Box 21, Har Adar 90836 Israel
          Tel 972-2-5345687, Cell 972-50-2231096


          ________________________________
          From: Raz Kletter <kletterr@...>
          To: ANE-2@yahoogroups.com
          Sent: Thursday, May 10, 2012 9:13 AM
          Subject: Re: [ANE-2] Re: Qeiyafa discoveries


           
          Eliot,
          Salvage excavations must too be made in a scientific pace - just like
          Tel Rehov (an example not in dispute). In 95% of salvage excavations, there
          is no justification at all for pressuring the archaeologists to finish
          fast. If a house or a road or some military installation will be finished a
          month or two earlier/ later, it affects mainly budgets, and even that,
          by very few percents.
          Very few excavations are urgent, when delays are life-threatening or
          cause considerable public inconvenience; but these are *rare*.
          The pressures "to finish fast no matter what" are many times supported
          or even produced by archaeologists in power, who do not understand or do
          not care for archaeology, but for budgets and profits. They do not let
          excavation managers decide the pace of excavation. This is true everywhere,
          but especially for salvage excavations of "private" university companies,
          whose profits go to the pockets of universities and archaeological
          departments.
          A person who created and continues to encourage this system complains
          now about a hasty pace of excavation; but only because its finds do not fit
          his theory. The word for it is hypocricity.
          In addition, even for Megiddo, one could find squares or loci excavated
          faster than the pace set as an example.
          Regardless: Douglas, you will end up eating your hat for lunch. An
          occupation layer must be excavated with the same meticolous care,
          whether the site has 1 layer or 1456. Removing fast a late layer in order
          to expose the Iron Age is an archaeological sin. With some other points I
          sympathise; but in these matters your defence ends up a discrimination.
          Raz Kletter

          [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]




          [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]



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        • eliot braun
          After 38 years of working archaeology in Israel I will say that never, during 28 of them when I worked for the govt. was I told, hinted at or otherwise
          Message 4 of 30 , May 10, 2012
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            After 38 years of working archaeology in Israel I will say that never, during 28 of them when I worked for the govt. was I told, hinted at or otherwise influenced to subvert my perception of the archaeological record. Not only that, but while in the early years of the state there was a major push towards finding the past of ancient Israel and Jews, it is long since gone! One need only look at the lists of publications of Israeli institutions to understand that. In Israel there is a spate of work being done on Byzantine and later Islamic periods with no bias one way or the other. While a small collection of Israelis and Palestinians seem to have political axes to grind, my experience is that most are intent on revealing the past, as best as may be done. There are certainly no directives towards anything else. Any such idea is just another canard, one in a long line of canards that arrive from certain directions at regular intervals. I suggest that
            people take a good look at the publications of other countries in the region and see that nationalistic interpretations are not at all confined to Israeli publications. It's just that certain people seem only to pick up only on them because they have very specific agendas put blinders on them. Narrow horizons do not make for good scholarship. 

            Eliot Braun, Ph D.
            Sr. Fellow WF Albright Institute of Archaeological Research, Jerusalem
            Associate Researcher Centre de Recherche Français de Jérusalem
            PO Box 21, Har Adar 90836 Israel
            Tel 972-2-5345687, Cell 972-50-2231096


            ________________________________
            From: Niels Peter Lemche <npl@...>
            To: "ANE-2@yahoogroups.com" <ANE-2@yahoogroups.com>
            Sent: Thursday, May 10, 2012 10:33 AM
            Subject: SV: [ANE-2] Re: Qeiyafa discoveries


             
            I know of the European project, we up here were competitors but lost.

            Otherwise I will not interfere with your process of running backwards. Any politicians in the family?


            Now to see how this kind of archaeology is seen among Scandinavian archaeologists, let me quote from the introduction to Oestigaard, "Political Archaeology ..." (p.7):

            "Biblical archaeology and Israeli national archaeology are branches of archaeology with little impact in the general archaeological debate because its practitioners are only dealing with a little time segment and certain specific problems in the Middle East. But as a result of this, these branches of archaeology have an almost exclusive hegemony in the knowledge production upon which Israel bases its nation state. The general attitude towards biblical archaeology and Israel's past within the archaeological circles in Northern Europe is that the past is politically misused in the Middle East and that biblical archaeology research and Israeli nationalist archaeology are biased. When I started working with biblical archaeology very few of my colleagues understood why I bothered. Biblical archaeological approaches to the past are not "scientific" and its scholars are not part of the theoretical discourse, with the consequence that there was, allegedly, no
            need to worry."

            But again, how this discussion strayed from its home to ANE-2 is past my knowledge.

            At least everything along this line should be cc to Biblical studies.

            Niels Peter Lemche





            -----Oprindelig meddelelse-----
            Fra: ANE-2@yahoogroups.com [mailto:ANE-2@yahoogroups.com] På vegne af Douglas Petrovich
            Sendt: den 10 maj 2012 03:50
            Til: ANE-2@yahoogroups.com
            Emne: [ANE-2] Re: Qeiyafa discoveries

            Niels,

            On the contrary, nothing I said is horrible talk. Obviously you (and Raz) read a bit too much into my words, which would not be the first time (though perhaps not for Raz). To you both, I would state unequivocally that I never advocated an un-careful or imprecise approach to excavation. I simply stated the obvious: the time it takes to excavate per meter is vastly different between a site with 26 occupational levels and a site with 2 occupational levels. Any on-list archaeologist who chimes in would agree with this, I would venture my lunch money.

            But even with this as a given, the speed with which a team digs down depends on a myriad of factors: number of diggers; experience, strength, and fitness of diggers; daily hours of work; temperature during work hours; time of year; types of tools; lengths of breaks; type of soil; system of record-keeping; etc., etc.

            “He is destroying his evidence without even being able to document what he is doing.”

            This implies a dubious presupposition: the certainty of the presence of actual, artifactual evidence. If he is digging down from ground level, and there are no occupational levels until the Hellenistic period, what evidence is there to find? Whether he knows that ahead of time or not, which he very well may, is even somewhat irrelevant.

            On one of my digs, I began a square from virgin soil and did not reach any occupational level until the Persian period. We dug at a solid clip until we reached that level, at which time we slowed down tremendously. This is how archaeology works. There is no requirement to wet-sift soil that has no artifactual evidence in it, and there is no need to dig it with a trowel on hands and knees.

            This is especially true when the chief archaeologist on the dig knows that there is no occupational level where you’re digging, and he/she wants you to “move along” rapidly. I had to do this on numerous occasions, which is difficult because of my meticulous personality. However, when the chief excavator is confident, and calls the shots, it is time to dig faster and deeper with each thrust of the shovel.

            This is simply reality in the archaeological world. It may seem different in a 5th-floor office, but so be it. During such times of digging, the only artifacts that are found, anyway, are those out of stratigraphical sequence, such as random potsherds or scarabs. But as to whether Garfinkel has destroyed any of his evidence is a curious claim to make without specific evidence to support the charge. Did he commit any archaeological faux pas? I do not know, but I cannot accept your claim uncritically. If higher criticism teaches us anything, it is to be a critical thinker. So I would suggest that we be so and do so with Garfinkel.

            “With Garfinkel's speed he could easily go through 2 or 3 layers without recognizing it.”

            This sounds ominous, but the point becomes mute if no wrong practices were practiced, and if no phases were missed. Moreover, even if, for example, he plowed through a Byzantine squatter’s layer because he wanted to get to the Iron-Age levels, all he does in effect—as far as the Iron-II (and/or late Iron-I) evidence goes, anyway—is invalidate evidence from the Byzantine layer; the value of his work on the Iron-Age level(s) is NOT automatically invalidated or compromised.

            Any suggestions to the opposite are just illogical and misleading to those who read the reports that we fieldworkers prepare. Could Garfinkel have done a sloppy job on the Iron-Age levels? Sure, it is possible. However, the speed with which he arrived at that level, and the potential damage he may have done to potentially later phases, has nothing to do with determining how well he excavated the Iron levels, or whether we can judge his findings to be untrustworthy. Niels, you really need to be careful with your criticisms and evaluations here.

            “And as some of the layers at Megiddo are up to a meter deep, this is not an excuse for being sloppy.”

            Agreed. But you are preaching to the choir here.

            “If there is no money enough--and money is certainly also a problem at Megiddo--then there is no money, and the excavation has to wait for another day.”

            I was not referring to Finkelstein’s Megiddo dig at all, though certainly he has less problems with support-raising than 99.9% of the chief archaeologists out there, especially with people such as Eric Cline behind and involved with his dig.

            No, I was referring to Finkelstein’s “Reconstructing Ancient Israel” project, which is funded by the coffers of the European Research Council. This is a multi-million-dollar goldmine designed to propagate (exponentially!) his late-date, non-united-monarchy perspective. Everybody digging in Israel knows about this, and I would be shocked if it is news to you. The $65,000 question, of course, is how many scholars Finkelstein put on the payroll who oppose his views. How do you spell “objective scholarship”, again?

            “Garfinkel is destroying out [sic] past and I suggest that there is a special political reason for doing it.”

            This accusation is pure silliness unless there is evidence to prove otherwise.

            “As his aim is to prove the Bible right, he of course know in advance what he will find.”

            Come on, Niels, how do you know this? If I can hear confirmation of this from several Israeli archaeologists from varying camps, such as Aren Maeir or the like, then I would consider this potentially credible. Until then, the only thing I have to say is that I wonder how many archaeologists you have accused similarly who have not produced evidence that compromises major positions you hold or agendas you have.

            Yours for the enjoyment of the process,

            Doug Petrovich
            Toronto, Canada

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          • aren
            NPL and others, The noxious and obnoxious tone that you and some of the other contributors have reverted to in this thread, and the overall generalizations
            Message 5 of 30 , May 14, 2012
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              NPL and others,
              The noxious and obnoxious tone that you and some of the other contributors have reverted to in this thread, and the overall generalizations about biblical archaeology is quite embarrassing - but mainly towards you! While there is properly-done archaeology and poorly-done archaeology in Israel - and in many other places, I believe that there is your fare share of properly-done and poorly-done biblical studies - and not all agree on who should be placed where in this latter field. People in glass houses should not throw stones...

              Your overall vilification of biblical archaeology betrays, more than anything else, a deep lack of knowledge of what is going on in archaeology of Israel nowadays, and the fact that in many issues, some of the most advanced inter-disciplinary studies in archaeology are being conducted today in Israel (just follow the amount of articles from Israel published in the Journal of Archaeological Science).

              Also, the amount of large scale international funding for several such projects (such as the ERC project that Israel and Steve run, but others, including several of mine) is excellent evidence of this as well.

              If you want anyone to take you seriously (and sometimes I wonder about this) - deal with specific complaints in a serious manner. For example, just mentioning S. Zand's book (which is a horribly-researched book with such profound lack of knowledge, riddled with mistakes and misconceptions, by a 2nd rate scholar who was not even very good when he published about the history of French cinema - not to mention history of earlier periods) as evidence of how other opinions are attacked, does not make your remarks correct - or his shoddy research worthwhile repeating.


              Aren Maeir
              Card-carrying, proud member of the Cabal of Biblical Archaeologists.
            • Niels Peter Lemche
              Aren, I simply don t agree with what is happened in Jerusalem. AS you know well, I have a series of friends in Tel Aviv, Finkelstein, Ussishkin, Herzog, and I
              Message 6 of 30 , May 14, 2012
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                Aren,

                I simply don't agree with what is happened in Jerusalem. AS you know well, I have a series of friends in Tel Aviv, Finkelstein, Ussishkin, Herzog, and I find most of what they do OK. But when it comes to biblical archaeology, and a methodology used by Garfinkel, it is worse than no archaeology. I have been quoting a Scandinavian archaeologist lately, and a number of time. When he told his colleagues that he was dealing with biblical archaeology, they asked him why? It had nothing to contribute to the discourse of modern archaeology. I think you should address this contempt from colleagues rather than start a flame war here. My friends in archaeology here and in Israel will most likely agree.

                Interesting that you should mention Shlomo Sand (whose name you mispelled) on a day when he seems to have been attacked physically. Says something about the intellectual climate in your country. The first part of his book is interesting, the second part probably very speculative. But I understand that you defend your story. Most people would do so. Mine is different, and it doesn't help to use invectives.

                Hope this will end a discussion that is not fit for ANE-2. We both have free access to the list. Don't misuse it.

                Niels Peter Lemche

                -----Oprindelig meddelelse-----
                Fra: ANE-2@yahoogroups.com [mailto:ANE-2@yahoogroups.com] På vegne af aren
                Sendt: den 14 maj 2012 22:11
                Til: ANE-2@yahoogroups.com
                Emne: SV: [ANE-2] Re: salvage archaeology

                NPL and others,
                The noxious and obnoxious tone that you and some of the other contributors have reverted to in this thread, and the overall generalizations about biblical archaeology is quite embarrassing - but mainly towards you! While there is properly-done archaeology and poorly-done archaeology in Israel - and in many other places, I believe that there is your fare share of properly-done and poorly-done biblical studies - and not all agree on who should be placed where in this latter field. People in glass houses should not throw stones...

                Your overall vilification of biblical archaeology betrays, more than anything else, a deep lack of knowledge of what is going on in archaeology of Israel nowadays, and the fact that in many issues, some of the most advanced inter-disciplinary studies in archaeology are being conducted today in Israel (just follow the amount of articles from Israel published in the Journal of Archaeological Science).

                Also, the amount of large scale international funding for several such projects (such as the ERC project that Israel and Steve run, but others, including several of mine) is excellent evidence of this as well.

                If you want anyone to take you seriously (and sometimes I wonder about this) - deal with specific complaints in a serious manner. For example, just mentioning S. Zand's book (which is a horribly-researched book with such profound lack of knowledge, riddled with mistakes and misconceptions, by a 2nd rate scholar who was not even very good when he published about the history of French cinema - not to mention history of earlier periods) as evidence of how other opinions are attacked, does not make your remarks correct - or his shoddy research worthwhile repeating.


                Aren Maeir
                Card-carrying, proud member of the Cabal of Biblical Archaeologists.



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              • aren
                NPL, I apologize for my tone as well, but sometimes a load shout is needed to quiet a crowd... The fact that there may be archaeologists in Scandinavia that
                Message 7 of 30 , May 14, 2012
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                  NPL,
                  I apologize for my tone as well, but sometimes a load shout is needed to quiet a crowd...
                  The fact that there may be archaeologists in Scandinavia that have a misconceptions about what biblical archaeology is, still does not give license make generalizations about the field.
                  I as well don't agree with much of what Yossi Garfinkel has written about Qeiyafa, but definitely do agree with some of what he writes. I don't think that Yossi defines what biblical archaeology is today. In fact, more than anything else, the stuff that he touted last week is a part of this field that is fortunately, rapidly disappearing. There is a lot of excellent, first rate work going on in the field, which many (and perhaps you as well) seem not to be aware of, perhaps since a lot is published in purely archaeological professional forums.

                  Aren Maeir
                • Niels Peter Lemche
                  Dear Aren, Thank you for the clarification. The attitude up here has been that biblical archaeologists have a very limited idea of what is going on in textual
                  Message 8 of 30 , May 14, 2012
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                    Dear Aren,

                    Thank you for the clarification. The attitude up here has been that biblical archaeologists have a very limited idea of what is going on in textual studies but have simply been equating the biblical text with historical truth seeking for its confirmation in the ground. And it made no difference whether you spoke to Nordic archaeologists or archaeologist engaged in the classical or Oriental world. Many did not see into their own mind where national history also became a guideline. I guess that the reason has been that modern history appeared in combination with the new national states after the French revolution, and archaeology provided the illustrations of that history.

                    The archaeologist we brought with us the last time I came with my students (in 2010) was very upset because of what he saw and listened to. He has never dug in Israel but in Jordan and Syria where the Danes have been quite active. He is also a specialist in Stone Age archeology.

                    Why don't you arrange a conference between you people and some European archaeologists? That could help a lot. There need to be an exchange. I am in no doubt that you have a lot to contribute to such a discussion.

                    By the way, I think that I heard that Garfinkel's special area is not the Iron Age but much earlier. It may explain why he made those mistakes.

                    Further, BAR has a quote supposingly by me of saying that biblical archaeologists are low life. Well, it was a summary of a discussion found in Oestigaard, and not anything I endorsed. But I believe that Shanks did not understand the context.

                    All the best

                    Niels Peter Lemche



                    -----Oprindelig meddelelse-----
                    Fra: ANE-2@yahoogroups.com [mailto:ANE-2@yahoogroups.com] På vegne af aren
                    Sendt: den 15 maj 2012 04:33
                    Til: ANE-2@yahoogroups.com
                    Emne: SV: [ANE-2] Re: salvage archaeology

                    NPL,
                    I apologize for my tone as well, but sometimes a load shout is needed to quiet a crowd...
                    The fact that there may be archaeologists in Scandinavia that have a misconceptions about what biblical archaeology is, still does not give license make generalizations about the field.
                    I as well don't agree with much of what Yossi Garfinkel has written about Qeiyafa, but definitely do agree with some of what he writes. I don't think that Yossi defines what biblical archaeology is today. In fact, more than anything else, the stuff that he touted last week is a part of this field that is fortunately, rapidly disappearing. There is a lot of excellent, first rate work going on in the field, which many (and perhaps you as well) seem not to be aware of, perhaps since a lot is published in purely archaeological professional forums.

                    Aren Maeir



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                  • aren
                    NPL, I regularly am in contact, and collaborate and publish, with quite a few European archaeologists, both those who are connected closely with the
                    Message 9 of 30 , May 15, 2012
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                      NPL,
                      I regularly am in contact, and collaborate and publish, with quite a few European archaeologists, both those who are connected closely with the archaeology of the ANE, as well as those working mainly in other periods and cultures, and have not come across any of the attitude that you speak of. I would believe this indicates only a lack of knowledge on the part of the Scandinavian archaeologists...

                      Unfortunately, in general, I have the felling that there is a lot of negative generalizations about Israel in Scandinavia nowadays, not only in relationship to archaeology...

                      Aren Maeir
                      gath.wordpress.com


                      --- In ANE-2@yahoogroups.com, Niels Peter Lemche <npl@...> wrote:
                      >
                      > Dear Aren,
                      >
                      > Thank you for the clarification. The attitude up here has been that biblical archaeologists have a very limited idea of what is going on in textual studies but have simply been equating the biblical text with historical truth seeking for its confirmation in the ground. And it made no difference whether you spoke to Nordic archaeologists or archaeologist engaged in the classical or Oriental world. Many did not see into their own mind where national history also became a guideline. I guess that the reason has been that modern history appeared in combination with the new national states after the French revolution, and archaeology provided the illustrations of that history.
                      >
                      > The archaeologist we brought with us the last time I came with my students (in 2010) was very upset because of what he saw and listened to. He has never dug in Israel but in Jordan and Syria where the Danes have been quite active. He is also a specialist in Stone Age archeology.
                      >
                      > Why don't you arrange a conference between you people and some European archaeologists? That could help a lot. There need to be an exchange. I am in no doubt that you have a lot to contribute to such a discussion.
                      >
                      > By the way, I think that I heard that Garfinkel's special area is not the Iron Age but much earlier. It may explain why he made those mistakes.
                      >
                      > Further, BAR has a quote supposingly by me of saying that biblical archaeologists are low life. Well, it was a summary of a discussion found in Oestigaard, and not anything I endorsed. But I believe that Shanks did not understand the context.
                      >
                      > All the best
                      >
                      > Niels Peter Lemche
                      >
                      >
                      >
                      > -----Oprindelig meddelelse-----
                      > Fra: ANE-2@yahoogroups.com [mailto:ANE-2@yahoogroups.com] På vegne af aren
                      > Sendt: den 15 maj 2012 04:33
                      > Til: ANE-2@yahoogroups.com
                      > Emne: SV: [ANE-2] Re: salvage archaeology
                      >
                      > NPL,
                      > I apologize for my tone as well, but sometimes a load shout is needed to quiet a crowd...
                      > The fact that there may be archaeologists in Scandinavia that have a misconceptions about what biblical archaeology is, still does not give license make generalizations about the field.
                      > I as well don't agree with much of what Yossi Garfinkel has written about Qeiyafa, but definitely do agree with some of what he writes. I don't think that Yossi defines what biblical archaeology is today. In fact, more than anything else, the stuff that he touted last week is a part of this field that is fortunately, rapidly disappearing. There is a lot of excellent, first rate work going on in the field, which many (and perhaps you as well) seem not to be aware of, perhaps since a lot is published in purely archaeological professional forums.
                      >
                      > Aren Maeir
                      >
                      >
                      >
                      > ------------------------------------
                      >
                      > Yahoo! Groups Links
                      >
                      >
                      >
                      >
                      > -----
                      > No virus found in this message.
                      > Checked by AVG - www.avg.com
                      > Version: 2012.0.2171 / Virus Database: 2425/4998 - Release Date: 05/14/12
                      >
                    • Niels Peter Lemche
                      Bad here in Sweden (espec. Malmö), but not so bad in Denmark. But in general, Israel has not been able to control the media here any more. Has to do with the
                      Message 10 of 30 , May 15, 2012
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                        Bad here in Sweden (espec. Malmö), but not so bad in Denmark. But in general, Israel has not been able to control the media here any more. Has to do with the large Muslim population segments all over.

                        NP

                        -----Oprindelig meddelelse-----
                        Fra: ANE-2@yahoogroups.com [mailto:ANE-2@yahoogroups.com] På vegne af aren
                        Sendt: den 15 maj 2012 21:48
                        Til: ANE-2@yahoogroups.com
                        Emne: SV: [ANE-2] Re: salvage archaeology

                        NPL,
                        I regularly am in contact, and collaborate and publish, with quite a few European archaeologists, both those who are connected closely with the archaeology of the ANE, as well as those working mainly in other periods and cultures, and have not come across any of the attitude that you speak of. I would believe this indicates only a lack of knowledge on the part of the Scandinavian archaeologists...

                        Unfortunately, in general, I have the felling that there is a lot of negative generalizations about Israel in Scandinavia nowadays, not only in relationship to archaeology...

                        Aren Maeir
                        gath.wordpress.com


                        --- In ANE-2@yahoogroups.com, Niels Peter Lemche <npl@...> wrote:
                        >
                        > Dear Aren,
                        >
                        > Thank you for the clarification. The attitude up here has been that biblical archaeologists have a very limited idea of what is going on in textual studies but have simply been equating the biblical text with historical truth seeking for its confirmation in the ground. And it made no difference whether you spoke to Nordic archaeologists or archaeologist engaged in the classical or Oriental world. Many did not see into their own mind where national history also became a guideline. I guess that the reason has been that modern history appeared in combination with the new national states after the French revolution, and archaeology provided the illustrations of that history.
                        >
                        > The archaeologist we brought with us the last time I came with my students (in 2010) was very upset because of what he saw and listened to. He has never dug in Israel but in Jordan and Syria where the Danes have been quite active. He is also a specialist in Stone Age archeology.
                        >
                        > Why don't you arrange a conference between you people and some European archaeologists? That could help a lot. There need to be an exchange. I am in no doubt that you have a lot to contribute to such a discussion.
                        >
                        > By the way, I think that I heard that Garfinkel's special area is not the Iron Age but much earlier. It may explain why he made those mistakes.
                        >
                        > Further, BAR has a quote supposingly by me of saying that biblical archaeologists are low life. Well, it was a summary of a discussion found in Oestigaard, and not anything I endorsed. But I believe that Shanks did not understand the context.
                        >
                        > All the best
                        >
                        > Niels Peter Lemche
                        >
                        >
                        >
                        > -----Oprindelig meddelelse-----
                        > Fra: ANE-2@yahoogroups.com [mailto:ANE-2@yahoogroups.com] På vegne af aren
                        > Sendt: den 15 maj 2012 04:33
                        > Til: ANE-2@yahoogroups.com
                        > Emne: SV: [ANE-2] Re: salvage archaeology
                        >
                        > NPL,
                        > I apologize for my tone as well, but sometimes a load shout is needed to quiet a crowd...
                        > The fact that there may be archaeologists in Scandinavia that have a misconceptions about what biblical archaeology is, still does not give license make generalizations about the field.
                        > I as well don't agree with much of what Yossi Garfinkel has written about Qeiyafa, but definitely do agree with some of what he writes. I don't think that Yossi defines what biblical archaeology is today. In fact, more than anything else, the stuff that he touted last week is a part of this field that is fortunately, rapidly disappearing. There is a lot of excellent, first rate work going on in the field, which many (and perhaps you as well) seem not to be aware of, perhaps since a lot is published in purely archaeological professional forums.
                        >
                        > Aren Maeir
                        >
                        >
                        >
                        > ------------------------------------
                        >
                        > Yahoo! Groups Links
                        >
                        >
                        >
                        >
                        > -----
                        > No virus found in this message.
                        > Checked by AVG - www.avg.com
                        > Version: 2012.0.2171 / Virus Database: 2425/4998 - Release Date: 05/14/12
                        >




                        ------------------------------------

                        Yahoo! Groups Links




                        -----
                        No virus found in this message.
                        Checked by AVG - www.avg.com
                        Version: 2012.0.2171 / Virus Database: 2425/5000 - Release Date: 05/15/12
                      • Niels Peter Lemche
                        sorry for this last mail. Shouldn t have been to the list. Straying far away from the purpose of the list. Niels Peter Lemche ... Fra: ANE-2@yahoogroups.com
                        Message 11 of 30 , May 15, 2012
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                          sorry for this last mail. Shouldn't have been to the list. Straying far away from the purpose of the list.

                          Niels Peter Lemche

                          -----Oprindelig meddelelse-----
                          Fra: ANE-2@yahoogroups.com [mailto:ANE-2@yahoogroups.com] På vegne af Niels Peter Lemche
                          Sendt: den 15 maj 2012 22:00
                          Til: ANE-2@yahoogroups.com
                          Emne: SV: [ANE-2] Re: salvage archaeology

                          Bad here in Sweden (espec. Malmö), but not so bad in Denmark. But in general, Israel has not been able to control the media here any more. Has to do with the large Muslim population segments all over.

                          NP

                          -----Oprindelig meddelelse-----
                          Fra: ANE-2@yahoogroups.com [mailto:ANE-2@yahoogroups.com] På vegne af aren
                          Sendt: den 15 maj 2012 21:48
                          Til: ANE-2@yahoogroups.com
                          Emne: SV: [ANE-2] Re: salvage archaeology

                          NPL,
                          I regularly am in contact, and collaborate and publish, with quite a few European archaeologists, both those who are connected closely with the archaeology of the ANE, as well as those working mainly in other periods and cultures, and have not come across any of the attitude that you speak of. I would believe this indicates only a lack of knowledge on the part of the Scandinavian archaeologists...

                          Unfortunately, in general, I have the felling that there is a lot of negative generalizations about Israel in Scandinavia nowadays, not only in relationship to archaeology...

                          Aren Maeir
                          gath.wordpress.com


                          --- In ANE-2@yahoogroups.com, Niels Peter Lemche <npl@...> wrote:
                          >
                          > Dear Aren,
                          >
                          > Thank you for the clarification. The attitude up here has been that biblical archaeologists have a very limited idea of what is going on in textual studies but have simply been equating the biblical text with historical truth seeking for its confirmation in the ground. And it made no difference whether you spoke to Nordic archaeologists or archaeologist engaged in the classical or Oriental world. Many did not see into their own mind where national history also became a guideline. I guess that the reason has been that modern history appeared in combination with the new national states after the French revolution, and archaeology provided the illustrations of that history.
                          >
                          > The archaeologist we brought with us the last time I came with my students (in 2010) was very upset because of what he saw and listened to. He has never dug in Israel but in Jordan and Syria where the Danes have been quite active. He is also a specialist in Stone Age archeology.
                          >
                          > Why don't you arrange a conference between you people and some European archaeologists? That could help a lot. There need to be an exchange. I am in no doubt that you have a lot to contribute to such a discussion.
                          >
                          > By the way, I think that I heard that Garfinkel's special area is not the Iron Age but much earlier. It may explain why he made those mistakes.
                          >
                          > Further, BAR has a quote supposingly by me of saying that biblical archaeologists are low life. Well, it was a summary of a discussion found in Oestigaard, and not anything I endorsed. But I believe that Shanks did not understand the context.
                          >
                          > All the best
                          >
                          > Niels Peter Lemche
                          >
                          >
                          >
                          > -----Oprindelig meddelelse-----
                          > Fra: ANE-2@yahoogroups.com [mailto:ANE-2@yahoogroups.com] På vegne af aren
                          > Sendt: den 15 maj 2012 04:33
                          > Til: ANE-2@yahoogroups.com
                          > Emne: SV: [ANE-2] Re: salvage archaeology
                          >
                          > NPL,
                          > I apologize for my tone as well, but sometimes a load shout is needed to quiet a crowd...
                          > The fact that there may be archaeologists in Scandinavia that have a misconceptions about what biblical archaeology is, still does not give license make generalizations about the field.
                          > I as well don't agree with much of what Yossi Garfinkel has written about Qeiyafa, but definitely do agree with some of what he writes. I don't think that Yossi defines what biblical archaeology is today. In fact, more than anything else, the stuff that he touted last week is a part of this field that is fortunately, rapidly disappearing. There is a lot of excellent, first rate work going on in the field, which many (and perhaps you as well) seem not to be aware of, perhaps since a lot is published in purely archaeological professional forums.
                          >
                          > Aren Maeir
                          >
                          >
                          >
                          > ------------------------------------
                          >
                          > Yahoo! Groups Links
                          >
                          >
                          >
                          >
                          > -----
                          > No virus found in this message.
                          > Checked by AVG - www.avg.com
                          > Version: 2012.0.2171 / Virus Database: 2425/4998 - Release Date: 05/14/12
                          >




                          ------------------------------------

                          Yahoo! Groups Links




                          -----
                          No virus found in this message.
                          Checked by AVG - www.avg.com
                          Version: 2012.0.2171 / Virus Database: 2425/5000 - Release Date: 05/15/12


                          ------------------------------------

                          Yahoo! Groups Links




                          -----
                          No virus found in this message.
                          Checked by AVG - www.avg.com
                          Version: 2012.0.2171 / Virus Database: 2425/5000 - Release Date: 05/15/12
                        • eliot braun
                          To the owners of this list, especially and to the readers: Is this list turning into a political discussion for people who have narrow agendas, of which this
                          Message 12 of 30 , May 15, 2012
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                            To the owners of this list, especially and to the readers:

                            Is this list turning into a political discussion for people who have narrow agendas, of which this is an unfortunate example? Who does the monitoring?

                            What do the Israeli media have to do with salvage archaeology?

                             
                            Eliot Braun, Ph D
                            Sr. Fellow WF Albright Institute of Archaeological Research, Jerusalem
                            Associate Researcher Centre de Recherche Français de Jérusalem
                            PO Box 21, Har Adar 90836 Israel
                            Tel 972-2-5345687, Cell 972-50-2231096


                            ________________________________
                            From: Niels Peter Lemche <npl@...>
                            To: "ANE-2@yahoogroups.com" <ANE-2@yahoogroups.com>
                            Sent: Tuesday, May 15, 2012 11:01 PM
                            Subject: SV: [ANE-2] Re: salvage archaeology


                             
                            sorry for this last mail. Shouldn't have been to the list. Straying far away from the purpose of the list.

                            Niels Peter Lemche

                            -----Oprindelig meddelelse-----
                            Fra: ANE-2@yahoogroups.com [mailto:ANE-2@yahoogroups.com] På vegne af Niels Peter Lemche
                            Sendt: den 15 maj 2012 22:00
                            Til: ANE-2@yahoogroups.com
                            Emne: SV: [ANE-2] Re: salvage archaeology

                            Bad here in Sweden (espec. Malmö), but not so bad in Denmark. But in general, Israel has not been able to control the media here any more. Has to do with the large Muslim population segments all over.

                            NP

                            -----Oprindelig meddelelse-----
                            Fra: ANE-2@yahoogroups.com [mailto:ANE-2@yahoogroups.com] På vegne af aren
                            Sendt: den 15 maj 2012 21:48
                            Til: ANE-2@yahoogroups.com
                            Emne: SV: [ANE-2] Re: salvage archaeology

                            NPL,
                            I regularly am in contact, and collaborate and publish, with quite a few European archaeologists, both those who are connected closely with the archaeology of the ANE, as well as those working mainly in other periods and cultures, and have not come across any of the attitude that you speak of. I would believe this indicates only a lack of knowledge on the part of the Scandinavian archaeologists...

                            Unfortunately, in general, I have the felling that there is a lot of negative generalizations about Israel in Scandinavia nowadays, not only in relationship to archaeology...

                            Aren Maeir
                            gath.wordpress.com

                            --- In ANE-2@yahoogroups.com, Niels Peter Lemche <npl@...> wrote:
                            >
                            > Dear Aren,
                            >
                            > Thank you for the clarification. The attitude up here has been that biblical archaeologists have a very limited idea of what is going on in textual studies but have simply been equating the biblical text with historical truth seeking for its confirmation in the ground. And it made no difference whether you spoke to Nordic archaeologists or archaeologist engaged in the classical or Oriental world. Many did not see into their own mind where national history also became a guideline. I guess that the reason has been that modern history appeared in combination with the new national states after the French revolution, and archaeology provided the illustrations of that history.
                            >
                            > The archaeologist we brought with us the last time I came with my students (in 2010) was very upset because of what he saw and listened to. He has never dug in Israel but in Jordan and Syria where the Danes have been quite active. He is also a specialist in Stone Age archeology.
                            >
                            > Why don't you arrange a conference between you people and some European archaeologists? That could help a lot. There need to be an exchange. I am in no doubt that you have a lot to contribute to such a discussion.
                            >
                            > By the way, I think that I heard that Garfinkel's special area is not the Iron Age but much earlier. It may explain why he made those mistakes.
                            >
                            > Further, BAR has a quote supposingly by me of saying that biblical archaeologists are low life. Well, it was a summary of a discussion found in Oestigaard, and not anything I endorsed. But I believe that Shanks did not understand the context.
                            >
                            > All the best
                            >
                            > Niels Peter Lemche
                            >
                            >
                            >
                            > -----Oprindelig meddelelse-----
                            > Fra: ANE-2@yahoogroups.com [mailto:ANE-2@yahoogroups.com] På vegne af aren
                            > Sendt: den 15 maj 2012 04:33
                            > Til: ANE-2@yahoogroups.com
                            > Emne: SV: [ANE-2] Re: salvage archaeology
                            >
                            > NPL,
                            > I apologize for my tone as well, but sometimes a load shout is needed to quiet a crowd...
                            > The fact that there may be archaeologists in Scandinavia that have a misconceptions about what biblical archaeology is, still does not give license make generalizations about the field.
                            > I as well don't agree with much of what Yossi Garfinkel has written about Qeiyafa, but definitely do agree with some of what he writes. I don't think that Yossi defines what biblical archaeology is today. In fact, more than anything else, the stuff that he touted last week is a part of this field that is fortunately, rapidly disappearing. There is a lot of excellent, first rate work going on in the field, which many (and perhaps you as well) seem not to be aware of, perhaps since a lot is published in purely archaeological professional forums.
                            >
                            > Aren Maeir
                            >
                            >
                            >
                            > ------------------------------------
                            >
                            > Yahoo! Groups Links
                            >
                            >
                            >
                            >
                            > -----
                            > No virus found in this message.
                            > Checked by AVG - www.avg.com
                            > Version: 2012.0.2171 / Virus Database: 2425/4998 - Release Date: 05/14/12
                            >

                            ------------------------------------

                            Yahoo! Groups Links

                            -----
                            No virus found in this message.
                            Checked by AVG - www.avg.com
                            Version: 2012.0.2171 / Virus Database: 2425/5000 - Release Date: 05/15/12

                            ------------------------------------

                            Yahoo! Groups Links

                            -----
                            No virus found in this message.
                            Checked by AVG - www.avg.com
                            Version: 2012.0.2171 / Virus Database: 2425/5000 - Release Date: 05/15/12



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