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Re: [ANE-2] SV: on the date of the Pentateuch

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  • RUSSELLGMIRKIN@aol.com
    Dear Aren Maeir, Regarding no. 2: As to the Philistines - speaking as someone who knows Philistine material culture, the hints (or direct references) to it in
    Message 1 of 15 , May 3, 2006
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      Dear Aren Maeir,


      Regarding no. 2: As to the Philistines - speaking as someone who
      knows Philistine material culture, the hints (or direct references)
      to it in the biblical text can ONLY be appropriate in the Iron Age
      (the Philistines did not exist in the Persian period - or later).




      It seems to me (and others have noted this in print) that Goliath is
      unmistakably dressed in the armor of a Greek hoplite, complete with spear-carrier.

      Best regards,
      Russell Gmirkin


      [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
    • arenmaeir
      ... This is not so! There are asepcts that are similar to the panoply of a Greek hoplite, while other aspects are QUITE different. Even if they are similar to
      Message 2 of 15 , May 3, 2006
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        --- In ANE-2@yahoogroups.com, RUSSELLGMIRKIN@... wrote:
        This is not so! There are asepcts that are similar to the panoply of
        a Greek hoplite, while other aspects are QUITE different. Even if
        they are similar to a Greek hoplite, as I. Finkelstein has argued, a
        late Iron Age dating is most logical. And by the way - even if there
        are late aspects (e.g., Hellenistic) in this text (and I'm not at
        all convinced of this from a point of view of the depiction of the
        weapons and armour), this does not date the earliest parts of the
        text, and their relationship to the reality of Philistine-Israelite
        martial confrontations THAT ONLY COULD HAVE OCCURRED IN THE IRON AGE!

        Best,
        Aren Maeir
        Jerusalem

        >
        >
        > Dear Aren Maeir,
        >
        >
        > Regarding no. 2: As to the Philistines - speaking as someone who
        > knows Philistine material culture, the hints (or direct
        references)
        > to it in the biblical text can ONLY be appropriate in the Iron
        Age
        > (the Philistines did not exist in the Persian period - or
        later).
        >
        >
        >
        >
        > It seems to me (and others have noted this in print) that Goliath
        is
        > unmistakably dressed in the armor of a Greek hoplite, complete
        with spear-carrier.
        >
        > Best regards,
        > Russell Gmirkin
        >
        >
        > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
        >
      • gfsomsel@juno.com
        That was all, and Patroclus armed himself in Achilles gleaming bronze. First he wrapped his legs in the well-made greaves, fastened behind the heels with
        Message 3 of 15 , May 3, 2006
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          That was all, and Patroclus armed himself in Achilles' gleaming bronze. First he wrapped his legs in the well-made greaves, fastened behind the heels with silver ankle-clasps, next he strapped the breastplate round his chest, blazoned with stars�swift Achilles' own�then over his shoulder Patroclus slung the sword, the fine bronze blade with its silver-studded hilt, and then the shield-strap and the sturdy, massive shield and over his powerful head he set the well-forged helmet, the horsehair crest atop it tossing, bristling terror, and he took two rugged spears that fit his grip. And Achilles' only weapon Patroclus did not take was the great man's spear, weighted, heavy, tough. No other Achaean fighter could heft that shaft, only Achilles had the skill to wield it well: Pelian ash it was, a gift to his father Peleus prsented by Chiron once, hewn on Pelion's crest to be the death of heroes.
          .
          .
          .
          The Trojans, soon as they saw Menoetius' gallant son, himself and his loyal driver flare in brazen gear�all their courage quaked, their columns buckled, thinking swift Achilles had tossed to the winds his hard rage that held him back by the ships and chosen friendship toward the Argives now. Each Trojan soldier glancing left and right�how could he run from sudden, plunging death?
          Iliad, ll., Book 16 155-173, 323-333 tr. Fagles

          <!--StartFragment--> 4 And there came out from the camp of the Philistines a champion named Goliath, of Gath, whose height was six cubits and a span. 5 He had a helmet of bronze on his head, and he was armed with a coat of mail, and the weight of the coat was five thousand shekels of bronze. 6 And he had greaves of bronze upon his legs, and a javelin of bronze slung between his shoulders. 7 And the shaft of his spear was like a weaver�s beam, and his spear�s head weighed six hundred shekels of iron; and his shield-bearer went before him.
          The Revised Standard Version. 1971 (1 Sa 17:4-7). Regardless of your dating of Homer and the Iliad, it is clear that it was some considerable time prior to Herodotus who maintained that he lived 400 years prior to himself (c. 450 B.C). Even if one were able to establish


          george
          gfsomsel
          _________

          -- RUSSELLGMIRKIN@... wrote:

          Dear Aren Maeir,


          Regarding no. 2: As to the Philistines - speaking as someone who
          knows Philistine material culture, the hints (or direct references)
          to it in the biblical text can ONLY be appropriate in the Iron Age
          (the Philistines did not exist in the Persian period - or later).




          It seems to me (and others have noted this in print) that Goliath is
          unmistakably dressed in the armor of a Greek hoplite, complete with spear-carrier.

          Best regards,
          Russell Gmirkin



          [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
        • Clark Whelton
          ... unmistakably dressed in the armor of a Greek hoplite, complete with spear-carrier. Russell Gmirkin Isn t single combat itself an Aegean tradition? Are
          Message 4 of 15 , May 3, 2006
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            >>>>>It seems to me (and others have noted this in print) that Goliath is
            unmistakably dressed in the armor of a Greek hoplite, complete with spear-carrier.
            Russell Gmirkin


            Isn't single combat itself an Aegean tradition? Are there examples from the ANE?

            Clark Whelton
            New York

            [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
          • Marc Cooper
            Sinuhe v. the Retenu champion comes to mind. Also Gigamesh v. Agga, Marduk v. Tiamat, and there is a set of Old Akkadian cylinder seal engravings depicting
            Message 5 of 15 , May 3, 2006
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              Sinuhe v. the Retenu champion comes to mind. Also Gigamesh v. Agga,
              Marduk v. Tiamat, and there is a set of Old Akkadian cylinder seal
              engravings depicting single combats. I suspect that the list could
              come up with more.

              Marc Cooper
              Missouri State University

              --- In ANE-2@yahoogroups.com, "Clark Whelton" <cwhelton@...> wrote:
              >
              > Isn't single combat itself an Aegean tradition? Are there examples
              from the ANE?
              >
              > Clark Whelton
              > New York
            • Yitzhak Sapir
              Regarding the armor of Goliath, the following blogpost: http://www.heardworld.com/higgaion/2006/04/yadin-on-david-and-goliath-in-vt-54.html And the article it
              Message 6 of 15 , May 3, 2006
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                Regarding the armor of Goliath, the following blogpost:

                http://www.heardworld.com/higgaion/2006/04/yadin-on-david-and-goliath-in-vt-54.html

                And the article it reviews:

                Azzan Yadin, "Goliath's Armor and Israelite Collective Memory," Vetus
                Testamentum 54 (2004) 373-395.

                may be of interest in the discussion.

                Yitzhak Sapir
                http://toldot.blogspot.com
              • Mikey Brass
                ... One significant (indeed I would argue the most significant) point which no one has adequately mentioned in this thread to date is: have any
                Message 7 of 15 , May 3, 2006
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                  gfsomsel@... wrote:

                  > <!--StartFragment--> 4 And there came out from the camp of the Philistines

                  One significant (indeed I would argue the most significant) point which
                  no one has adequately mentioned in this thread to date is: have any
                  *archaeological* instances of Philistine armour been excavated (aside
                  from reliefs!) and, if so, how do they relate to texts such as these?

                  --
                  Best, Mikey Brass
                  MA in Archaeology degree, University College London
                  "The Antiquity of Man" http://www.antiquityofman.com
                  Book: "The Antiquity of Man: Artifactual, fossil and gene records explored"

                  - !ke e: /xarra //ke
                  ("Diverse people unite": Motto of the South African Coat of Arms, 2002)
                • Mikey Brass
                  ... Interestingly, for me at least, the Ekron inscription was excavated three days after I arrived at the excavation in 1996, two squares away from me and the
                  Message 8 of 15 , May 3, 2006
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                    arenmaeir wrote:

                    > For cognate languages (Aramaic, Edomite, Philistine, etc.): The
                    > Ekron "Patgaya" inscription

                    Interestingly, for me at least, the Ekron inscription was excavated
                    three days after I arrived at the excavation in 1996, two squares away
                    from me and the day after my birthday (my birthday saw the discovery of
                    a small ivory statute in my square).

                    --
                    Best, Mikey Brass
                    MA in Archaeology degree, University College London
                    "The Antiquity of Man" http://www.antiquityofman.com
                    Book: "The Antiquity of Man: Artifactual, fossil and gene records explored"

                    - !ke e: /xarra //ke
                    ("Diverse people unite": Motto of the South African Coat of Arms, 2002)
                  • Jim West
                    Giovanni Garbini s excellent (and unfortunately overlooked) monograph, I Filstei , addresses the archaeological remnants of Philistine society in the third
                    Message 9 of 15 , May 3, 2006
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                      Giovanni Garbini's excellent (and unfortunately overlooked) monograph,
                      "I Filstei", addresses the archaeological remnants of Philistine society
                      in the third chapter and the fourth. I don't recall if it's been
                      translated. But everyone should read Italian- it's the new German for
                      scholars of ancient Israel. ;-)

                      Best

                      Jim


                      Mikey Brass wrote:
                      > gfsomsel@... wrote:
                      >
                      >
                      >><!--StartFragment--> 4 And there came out from the camp of the Philistines
                      >
                      >
                      > One significant (indeed I would argue the most significant) point which
                      > no one has adequately mentioned in this thread to date is: have any
                      > *archaeological* instances of Philistine armour been excavated (aside
                      > from reliefs!) and, if so, how do they relate to texts such as these?
                      >

                      --
                      Jim West, ThD

                      "Quos Deus vult perdere, prius dementat."

                      http://web.infoave.net/~jwest -- Biblical Studies Resources
                      http://petrosbaptistchurch.blogspot.com -- Weblog
                    • arenmaeir
                      ... Jim, I have read Garbini s book several years ago, and truthfully, have found some of it completely off the deep end ... In fact, I published a remark on
                      Message 10 of 15 , May 3, 2006
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                        --- In ANE-2@yahoogroups.com, Jim West <jwest@...> wrote:
                        Jim,
                        I have read Garbini's book several years ago, and truthfully, have
                        found some of it completely "off the deep end"... In fact, I
                        published a remark on part of the book in UF awhile back (on
                        Garbini's ludicrous claims of evidence for the Philistines in
                        Sardinia).
                        On a related issue, I agree that the weaponry that Goliath carries
                        is very varied and cannot point to a specific date, but, that is so
                        also for the late dating of the text. And by the way, there are some
                        very nice assemblages of weapons from the Keramekos cemetery in
                        Athens dating to the 10th-9th cent. with various elements quite
                        reminiscent of Goliath's panoply.

                        Aren Maeir

                        Jerusalem
                        >
                        > Giovanni Garbini's excellent (and unfortunately overlooked) monograph,
                        > "I Filstei", addresses the archaeological remnants of Philistine society
                        > in the third chapter and the fourth. I don't recall if it's been
                        > translated. But everyone should read Italian- it's the new German for
                        > scholars of ancient Israel. ;-)
                        >
                        > Best
                        >
                        > Jim
                        >
                        >
                        > Mikey Brass wrote:
                        > > gfsomsel@... wrote:
                        > >
                        > >
                        > >><!--StartFragment--> 4 And there came out from
                        the camp of the Philistines
                        > >
                        > >
                        > > One significant (indeed I would argue the most significant) point which
                        > > no one has adequately mentioned in this thread to date is: have any
                        > > *archaeological* instances of Philistine armour been excavated (aside
                        > > from reliefs!) and, if so, how do they relate to texts such as these?
                        > >
                        >
                        > --
                        > Jim West, ThD
                        >
                        > "Quos Deus vult perdere, prius dementat."
                        >
                        > http://web.infoave.net/~jwest -- Biblical Studies Resources
                        > http://petrosbaptistchurch.blogspot.com -- Weblog
                        >
                      • PETER DANIELS
                        Jim West wrote: Giovanni Garbini s excellent (and unfortunately overlooked) monograph, I Filstei , addresses the archaeological
                        Message 11 of 15 , May 3, 2006
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                          Jim West <jwest@...> wrote: Giovanni Garbini's excellent (and unfortunately overlooked) monograph, "I Filstei", addresses the archaeological remnants of Philistine society in the third chapter and the fourth. I don't recall if it's been translated. But everyone should read Italian- it's the new German for scholars of ancient Israel. ;-)

                          Garbini is often "overlooked" -- because so much of what he writes is just so wacky. Going all the way back to "amorreizzazione" in the 1950s.
                          --
                          Peter T. Daniels grammatim@...
                          from an undisclosed social location
                          but if you want my geographical location for some reason, it's Jersey City


                          [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                        • Jim West
                          ... I reject this mischarcterization. Unless you can cite chapter and verse with supporting contrary evidence which outweighs the claims you deny. Jim -- Jim
                          Message 12 of 15 , May 3, 2006
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                            PETER DANIELS wrote:

                            > Garbini is often "overlooked" -- because so much of what he writes is just so wacky.

                            I reject this mischarcterization. Unless you can cite chapter and verse
                            with supporting contrary evidence which outweighs the claims you deny.

                            Jim


                            --
                            Jim West, ThD

                            "Quos Deus vult perdere, prius dementat."

                            http://web.infoave.net/~jwest -- Biblical Studies Resources
                            http://petrosbaptistchurch.blogspot.com -- Weblog
                          • PETER DANIELS
                            Have you read the reviews of his books over the past fifty years? And noted the number of books of his that have never been reviewed, because they are simply
                            Message 13 of 15 , May 4, 2006
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                              Have you read the reviews of his books over the past fifty years?

                              And noted the number of books of his that have never been reviewed, because they are simply "wrong from betinning to end"?

                              Do you have some sort of vested interest in defending him?

                              Jim West <jwest@...> wrote:


                              PETER DANIELS wrote:

                              > Garbini is often "overlooked" -- because so much of what he writes is just so wacky.

                              I reject this mischarcterization. Unless you can cite chapter and verse
                              with supporting contrary evidence which outweighs the claims you deny.
                              --
                              Peter T. Daniels grammatim@...


                              [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
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