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Qeiyafa discoveries

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  • Brian Colless
    the hebrew university press release on the qeiyafa discovery ... Yes, the cultic objects and sacred places of Qeiyafa/ Sha`arayim are interesting and
    Message 1 of 30 , May 8, 2012
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      the hebrew university press release on the qeiyafa discovery
      > http://bit.ly/IH3kty
      >
      Yes, the cultic objects and sacred places of Qeiyafa/ Sha`arayim are
      interesting and enlightening (no images, only pillars, with no hint
      that this represents phallic worship?).

      Our thanks to Yossi Garfinkel and his team for discovering these
      artefacts.

      But Garfinkel harps on about King David all the time (as in Little
      David play on your harp).

      That fortress would have to be from the time of King Saul. Emile Puech
      recognizes that the king (mlk) at the end of line 4 of the Qeiyafa
      ostracon, would be Saul; but he has overlooked the mention of David
      (DWD) in the middle of line 3, after the word B`L; that would refer to
      "little David", since he is named with YH as having judged GLYT; David
      is called "the servant of God" (`BD 'LHM in line 1, `BD 'l in line 2)
      and "my servant" (`BDY in line 5). Compare David as "the servant of
      YHWH" in Psalm 18:1, referring to the time of King Saul.

      For a couple of years now I have been trying all sorts of possible
      interpretations, but have not assigned any of them to a permanent
      record on paper.

      But I feel I have joined up all the dots (literally speaking) and
      produced a respectable drawing of the Qeiyafa inscription, with every
      letter accounted for.

      My complete solution has not been released yet, but I have been making
      continual adjustments to the work in progress, here and in the site
      mentioned there:

      http://bonzoz.blogspot.co.nz/

      Brian Colless PhD ThD

      Massey University , New Zealand.

      On 8/05/2012, at 11:49 PM, Jim West wrote:

      > on the off chance that folk are interested in it.
      >
      > http://bit.ly/IH3kty
      >
      > --
      > ++++
      >
      > Jim West, ThD
      > Petros TN
      >
      >
      >



      [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
    • Douglas Petrovich
      Brian, “But Garfinkel harps on about King David all the time. That fortress would have to be from the time of King Saul.” Why do you purport such a
      Message 2 of 30 , May 9, 2012
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        Brian,

        “But Garfinkel harps on about King David all the time. That fortress would have to be from the time of King Saul.”

        Why do you purport such a conclusion? Your assertion does not fit biblical chronology well at all, whether you consider the characters real or fictional. Garfinkel offers the dates of 1020-980.

        I just finished a review on a brand new book on Israelite chronology, entitled “From Abraham to Paul: A Biblical Chronology” (Concordia, 2011) by Andrew Steinmann, and this book represents a careful analysis of events after synchronization with Assyrian (dealing with Thiele and those since). Here are some of the key dates listed (p. 122-123), “after” the rationale for this dating.

        1002 David conquers Jerusalem/defeats the Philistines
        998 Ammonite war begins
        997 Rabbah captured/David’s adultery
        994 Solomon born
        985 Amnon rapes Tamar
        983 Absalom murders Amnon/Absalom goes into exile
        980 Absalom returns from exile
        979-976 David builds his palace
        978 Absalom received again by David
        975 Ark moved to Jerusalem
        etc.
        969 David dies

        Again, whether one considers the events historical or not is irrelevant. The point is that IF they are, the dates of Garfinkel fit very nicely with a biblical chronology. The dates he provides would represent a clear overlap between Saul’s and David’s reigns, if indeed they did have literal reigns. There is no alleged conflict.

        Hoping this helps,

        Doug Petrovich
        Toronto, Canada

        [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
      • Niels Peter Lemche
        I had to read Israel Finkelstein and Alexander Fantalkin, Khirbet Qeiyafa: An Unsensational Archaeological and Historical Interpretation, TEL AVIV Vol. 39,
        Message 3 of 30 , May 9, 2012
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          I had to read Israel Finkelstein and Alexander Fantalkin, Khirbet Qeiyafa: An Unsensational Archaeological and Historical Interpretation,
          TEL AVIV Vol. 39, 2012, 38–63, again and a little more careful.

          The article is simply exposing to Qeiyafa excavation as totally incompetent, bordering on humbug (the reconstruction of the southern "gate" with photos before and after the reconstruction, so that you can look for yourself). The excavation proceeded with an astonishing speed leaving no time for a proper stratifigraphical analysis. Finkelstein mentions the progress at Qeiyafa in this way: in two weeks the excavation penetrated up to 2.5 m, a pace of over 1.25 m per week, comparing to the speed at Megiddo of in average of "less than 10 cm per week". Any person who has participated in a controlled dig (British-Tel Aviv style) knows what this means.

          There are many hilarious observations in the article mentioned such as the discussion about the Hellenistic city wall built after 1932 (C.E.).

          We may ask what is going on. First the "sensationalists" discoveries in Jerusalem, now this "excavation". It is obvious that we have here the Hebrew University's archaeologists engaged in trying to take down "minimalist" historical research, but also critical biblical scholarship at large. The site has been destroyed and made of no use for further discussion. But what is really going on. Do we here see a Israeli institution engaged in saving what can be saved feeling threatened by an ongoing Palestinian rewriting of the history of the country? We are definitely talking about a sharpening of the climate of discussion. Some people down there feel threatened because their hyperstory -- the continuous story of ancient Israel to the present reconquista of modern Israelis -- is being rivaled by another hyperstory? We saw recently the quite hysterical reaction to Shlomo Sand, The Invention of the Jewish People, and now this totally nonsense, bringing in what Finkelstein and Fantalkin adaptly characterize as pre-Spinozian Bible reading.

          It is quite sickening.

          Niels Peter Lemche
        • Douglas Petrovich
          Niels, “Finkelstein mentions the progress at Qeiyafa in this way: in two weeks the excavation penetrated up to 2.5 m, a pace of over 1.25 m per week,
          Message 4 of 30 , May 9, 2012
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            Niels,

            “Finkelstein mentions the progress at Qeiyafa in this way: in two weeks the excavation penetrated up to 2.5 m, a pace of over 1.25 m per week, comparing to the speed at Megiddo of in average of "less than 10 cm per week". Any person who has participated in a controlled dig (British-Tel Aviv style) knows what this means.”

            I cannot comment one way or another on the practices of the dig at Qeiyafa, but I have participated in controlled digs. I also know that Finkelstein has thrown out a red herring for those who do not have a background in archaeology, or a limited one.

            Comparing Megiddo to Qeiyafa truly gives new meaning to the concept of “an apples and oranges” comparison. Megiddo has ca. 26 occupational phases, many built right on top of one another, and others difficult to distinguish as independent phases or renovations from previous phases.

            Qeiyafa, however, features only two known occupational layers, Hellenistic and Iron IIA (Areas A & B). Miscellaneous sherds from other periods have been found, but no actual occupational areas for such phases are known to exist on the site (to my knowledge).

            Thus there is no necessity whatsoever for the archaeological team at Qeiyafa to dig there as though there were digging at Megiddo. It would be a virtual waste of effort, and an absolute waste of financial resources, which—as any archaeologist will tell you—do not grow on trees (unless his name is Finkelstein, and he has a similar agenda).

            So, let’s be careful about what kind of smoke we are blowing. And by the way, I despise the taste of all fish, both salmon, perch, walleye, trout, bass, and of course, even red herring.

            Hoping this restores some objectivity,

            Douglas Petrovich
            Toronto, Canada

            [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
          • Niels Peter Lemche
            I read you, and it is horrible talk: Up here in Europe, we have often a situation where a layer is a few centimeters deep calling for a meticulous procedure.
            Message 5 of 30 , May 9, 2012
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              I read you, and it is horrible talk: Up here in Europe, we have often a situation where a layer is a few centimeters deep calling for a meticulous procedure. That there is only one layer at Qeiyafa does not invite you to give up being meticulous. With Garfinkel's speed he could easily go through 2 or 3 layers without recognizing it, and do not forget: it cannot be redone. He is destroying his evidence without even being able to document what he is doing.

              And as some of the layers at Megiddo are up to a meter deep, this is not an excuse for being sloppy. If there is no money enough--and money is certainly also a problem at Megiddo--then there is no money, and the excavation has to wait for another day. Garfinkel is destroying out past and I suggest that there is a special political reason for doing it. As his aim is to prove the Bible right, he of course know in advance what he will find.

              OK, at the end of the day, I was accused in the recent issue of BAR of saying that Biblical archaeologists are low life. Of course Shanks made a mess of it, stealing the quote from this list but if you go back in the archives of this list, that sentence came as a conclusion to a resumé in Oestigaard of the reaction of European and classical archaeologists to his subject: biblical archaeologists: low life.

              And didn't Finkelstein not also mention something about bulldozers at Qeiyafa?

              Niels Peter Lemche




              -----Oprindelig meddelelse-----
              Fra: ANE-2@yahoogroups.com [mailto:ANE-2@yahoogroups.com] På vegne af Douglas Petrovich
              Sendt: den 9 maj 2012 17:47
              Til: ANE-2@yahoogroups.com
              Emne: [ANE-2] Re: Qeiyafa discoveries

              Niels,

              “Finkelstein mentions the progress at Qeiyafa in this way: in two weeks the excavation penetrated up to 2.5 m, a pace of over 1.25 m per week, comparing to the speed at Megiddo of in average of "less than 10 cm per week". Any person who has participated in a controlled dig (British-Tel Aviv style) knows what this means.”

              I cannot comment one way or another on the practices of the dig at Qeiyafa, but I have participated in controlled digs. I also know that Finkelstein has thrown out a red herring for those who do not have a background in archaeology, or a limited one.

              Comparing Megiddo to Qeiyafa truly gives new meaning to the concept of “an apples and oranges” comparison. Megiddo has ca. 26 occupational phases, many built right on top of one another, and others difficult to distinguish as independent phases or renovations from previous phases.

              Qeiyafa, however, features only two known occupational layers, Hellenistic and Iron IIA (Areas A & B). Miscellaneous sherds from other periods have been found, but no actual occupational areas for such phases are known to exist on the site (to my knowledge).

              Thus there is no necessity whatsoever for the archaeological team at Qeiyafa to dig there as though there were digging at Megiddo. It would be a virtual waste of effort, and an absolute waste of financial resources, which—as any archaeologist will tell you—do not grow on trees (unless his name is Finkelstein, and he has a similar agenda).

              So, let’s be careful about what kind of smoke we are blowing. And by the way, I despise the taste of all fish, both salmon, perch, walleye, trout, bass, and of course, even red herring.

              Hoping this restores some objectivity,

              Douglas Petrovich
              Toronto, Canada

              [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]



              ------------------------------------

              Yahoo! Groups Links




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            • Raz Kletter
              A few skeptic notes: 1. There is no fixed archaeological norm of X cubic feet per hour , pace depends also on context, and can vary between two suqares or
              Message 6 of 30 , May 9, 2012
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                A few skeptic notes:
                1. There is no fixed archaeological norm of "X cubic feet per hour", pace
                depends also on context, and can vary between two suqares or loci in the
                same excavation.
                2. However (to Douglas): In an occupation layer, careful = quite slow
                excavation is a must, whether the site is Megiddo or Kaiafa, and has 1 or
                1200 layers.
                3. (To Niels:) Both Kaifa and Megiddo are rich excavations. Those who want
                to prove the Bible at all costs are just opposites of those who want to
                disprove it at all costs.
                4. How can Finkelstein complain about the (alleged) hasty pace of
                excavation at Kaifa, when he carries much responsibility for the mad pace
                of salvage excavations all over Israel? This for money, not in order to
                disprove the Bible. What prevented him all those years from setting the
                pace of salvage excavations affiliated to the Tel Aviv University at 10 cm
                per week?
                5. A good question is where is the "supreme" archaeological council? I
                guess they are stuck inside some tunnel in Silwan.
                6. I am amused by the "unsensational" title. Israel Finkelstein tries to be
                unsensational??! I don't think he has the talent for it.
                Raz Kletter
                University of Helsinki



                2012/5/9 Niels Peter Lemche <npl@...>

                > **
                >
                >
                > I read you, and it is horrible talk: Up here in Europe, we have often a
                > situation where a layer is a few centimeters deep calling for a meticulous
                > procedure. That there is only one layer at Qeiyafa does not invite you to
                > give up being meticulous. With Garfinkel's speed he could easily go through
                > 2 or 3 layers without recognizing it, and do not forget: it cannot be
                > redone. He is destroying his evidence without even being able to document
                > what he is doing.
                >
                > And as some of the layers at Megiddo are up to a meter deep, this is not
                > an excuse for being sloppy. If there is no money enough--and money is
                > certainly also a problem at Megiddo--then there is no money, and the
                > excavation has to wait for another day. Garfinkel is destroying out past
                > and I suggest that there is a special political reason for doing it. As his
                > aim is to prove the Bible right, he of course know in advance what he will
                > find.
                >
                > OK, at the end of the day, I was accused in the recent issue of BAR of
                > saying that Biblical archaeologists are low life. Of course Shanks made a
                > mess of it, stealing the quote from this list but if you go back in the
                > archives of this list, that sentence came as a conclusion to a resum� in
                > Oestigaard of the reaction of European and classical archaeologists to his
                > subject: biblical archaeologists: low life.
                >
                > And didn't Finkelstein not also mention something about bulldozers at
                > Qeiyafa?
                >
                > Niels Peter Lemche
                >
                >
                >
                >
                > -----Oprindelig meddelelse-----
                > Fra: ANE-2@yahoogroups.com [mailto:ANE-2@yahoogroups.com] P� vegne af
                > Douglas Petrovich
                > Sendt: den 9 maj 2012 17:47
                > Til: ANE-2@yahoogroups.com
                > Emne: [ANE-2] Re: Qeiyafa discoveries
                >
                > Niels,
                >
                > �Finkelstein mentions the progress at Qeiyafa in this way: in two weeks
                > the excavation penetrated up to 2.5 m, a pace of over 1.25 m per week,
                > comparing to the speed at Megiddo of in average of "less than 10 cm per
                > week". Any person who has participated in a controlled dig (British-Tel
                > Aviv style) knows what this means.�
                >
                > I cannot comment one way or another on the practices of the dig at
                > Qeiyafa, but I have participated in controlled digs. I also know that
                > Finkelstein has thrown out a red herring for those who do not have a
                > background in archaeology, or a limited one.
                >
                > Comparing Megiddo to Qeiyafa truly gives new meaning to the concept of �an
                > apples and oranges� comparison. Megiddo has ca. 26 occupational phases,
                > many built right on top of one another, and others difficult to distinguish
                > as independent phases or renovations from previous phases.
                >
                > Qeiyafa, however, features only two known occupational layers, Hellenistic
                > and Iron IIA (Areas A & B). Miscellaneous sherds from other periods have
                > been found, but no actual occupational areas for such phases are known to
                > exist on the site (to my knowledge).
                >
                > Thus there is no necessity whatsoever for the archaeological team at
                > Qeiyafa to dig there as though there were digging at Megiddo. It would be a
                > virtual waste of effort, and an absolute waste of financial resources,
                > which�as any archaeologist will tell you�do not grow on trees (unless his
                > name is Finkelstein, and he has a similar agenda).
                >
                > So, let�s be careful about what kind of smoke we are blowing. And by the
                > way, I despise the taste of all fish, both salmon, perch, walleye, trout,
                > bass, and of course, even red herring.
                >
                > Hoping this restores some objectivity,
                >
                > Douglas Petrovich
                > Toronto, Canada
                >
                > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                >
                >
                >
                > ------------------------------------
                >
                > Yahoo! Groups Links
                >
                >
                >
                >
                > -----
                > No virus found in this message.
                > Checked by AVG - www.avg.com
                > Version: 2012.0.2171 / Virus Database: 2425/4986 - Release Date: 05/08/12
                >
                >


                [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
              • Douglas Petrovich
                Niels, On the contrary, nothing I said is horrible talk. Obviously you (and Raz) read a bit too much into my words, which would not be the first time (though
                Message 7 of 30 , May 9, 2012
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                  Niels,

                  On the contrary, nothing I said is horrible talk. Obviously you (and Raz) read a bit too much into my words, which would not be the first time (though perhaps not for Raz). To you both, I would state unequivocally that I never advocated an un-careful or imprecise approach to excavation. I simply stated the obvious: the time it takes to excavate per meter is vastly different between a site with 26 occupational levels and a site with 2 occupational levels. Any on-list archaeologist who chimes in would agree with this, I would venture my lunch money.

                  But even with this as a given, the speed with which a team digs down depends on a myriad of factors: number of diggers; experience, strength, and fitness of diggers; daily hours of work; temperature during work hours; time of year; types of tools; lengths of breaks; type of soil; system of record-keeping; etc., etc.

                  “He is destroying his evidence without even being able to document what he is doing.”

                  This implies a dubious presupposition: the certainty of the presence of actual, artifactual evidence. If he is digging down from ground level, and there are no occupational levels until the Hellenistic period, what evidence is there to find? Whether he knows that ahead of time or not, which he very well may, is even somewhat irrelevant.

                  On one of my digs, I began a square from virgin soil and did not reach any occupational level until the Persian period. We dug at a solid clip until we reached that level, at which time we slowed down tremendously. This is how archaeology works. There is no requirement to wet-sift soil that has no artifactual evidence in it, and there is no need to dig it with a trowel on hands and knees.

                  This is especially true when the chief archaeologist on the dig knows that there is no occupational level where you’re digging, and he/she wants you to “move along” rapidly. I had to do this on numerous occasions, which is difficult because of my meticulous personality. However, when the chief excavator is confident, and calls the shots, it is time to dig faster and deeper with each thrust of the shovel.

                  This is simply reality in the archaeological world. It may seem different in a 5th-floor office, but so be it. During such times of digging, the only artifacts that are found, anyway, are those out of stratigraphical sequence, such as random potsherds or scarabs. But as to whether Garfinkel has destroyed any of his evidence is a curious claim to make without specific evidence to support the charge. Did he commit any archaeological faux pas? I do not know, but I cannot accept your claim uncritically. If higher criticism teaches us anything, it is to be a critical thinker. So I would suggest that we be so and do so with Garfinkel.

                  “With Garfinkel's speed he could easily go through 2 or 3 layers without recognizing it.”

                  This sounds ominous, but the point becomes mute if no wrong practices were practiced, and if no phases were missed. Moreover, even if, for example, he plowed through a Byzantine squatter’s layer because he wanted to get to the Iron-Age levels, all he does in effect—as far as the Iron-II (and/or late Iron-I) evidence goes, anyway—is invalidate evidence from the Byzantine layer; the value of his work on the Iron-Age level(s) is NOT automatically invalidated or compromised.

                  Any suggestions to the opposite are just illogical and misleading to those who read the reports that we fieldworkers prepare. Could Garfinkel have done a sloppy job on the Iron-Age levels? Sure, it is possible. However, the speed with which he arrived at that level, and the potential damage he may have done to potentially later phases, has nothing to do with determining how well he excavated the Iron levels, or whether we can judge his findings to be untrustworthy. Niels, you really need to be careful with your criticisms and evaluations here.

                  “And as some of the layers at Megiddo are up to a meter deep, this is not an excuse for being sloppy.”

                  Agreed. But you are preaching to the choir here.

                  “If there is no money enough--and money is certainly also a problem at Megiddo--then there is no money, and the excavation has to wait for another day.”

                  I was not referring to Finkelstein’s Megiddo dig at all, though certainly he has less problems with support-raising than 99.9% of the chief archaeologists out there, especially with people such as Eric Cline behind and involved with his dig.

                  No, I was referring to Finkelstein’s “Reconstructing Ancient Israel” project, which is funded by the coffers of the European Research Council. This is a multi-million-dollar goldmine designed to propagate (exponentially!) his late-date, non-united-monarchy perspective. Everybody digging in Israel knows about this, and I would be shocked if it is news to you. The $65,000 question, of course, is how many scholars Finkelstein put on the payroll who oppose his views. How do you spell “objective scholarship”, again?

                  “Garfinkel is destroying out [sic] past and I suggest that there is a special political reason for doing it.”

                  This accusation is pure silliness unless there is evidence to prove otherwise.

                  “As his aim is to prove the Bible right, he of course know in advance what he will find.”

                  Come on, Niels, how do you know this? If I can hear confirmation of this from several Israeli archaeologists from varying camps, such as Aren Maeir or the like, then I would consider this potentially credible. Until then, the only thing I have to say is that I wonder how many archaeologists you have accused similarly who have not produced evidence that compromises major positions you hold or agendas you have.

                  Yours for the enjoyment of the process,

                  Doug Petrovich
                  Toronto, Canada

                  [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                • eliot braun
                  Comparison of sites is not the point. Without having been at the site during excavation and without any specifically directed comments on this or any other
                  Message 8 of 30 , May 9, 2012
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                    Comparison of sites is not the point. Without having been at the site during excavation and without any specifically directed comments on this or any other site it must be said: Good archaeological field methodology is necessary and must follow certain rules. They can be, are, and sometimes must be broken, when a site is endangered and must be salvaged or, preferably, rescued! That being said, lack of funds or a desire by one or all field workers to maximize the results of their efforts that employ methods that are less than the best is not an excuse, at any site that is not in danger of being destroyed! Such sites can be left unexcavated for future archaeologists who, I'm certain, will have improved methods.
                     
                    Eliot Braun, Ph D
                    Sr. Fellow WF Albright Institute of Archaeological Research, Jerusalem
                    Associate Researcher Centre de Recherche Français de Jérusalem
                    PO Box 21, Har Adar 90836 Israel
                    Tel 972-2-5345687, Cell 972-50-2231096


                    ________________________________
                    From: Douglas Petrovich <dp@...>
                    To: ANE-2@yahoogroups.com
                    Sent: Wednesday, May 9, 2012 6:46 PM
                    Subject: [ANE-2] Re: Qeiyafa discoveries


                     
                    Niels,

                    “Finkelstein mentions the progress at Qeiyafa in this way: in two weeks the excavation penetrated up to 2.5 m, a pace of over 1.25 m per week, comparing to the speed at Megiddo of in average of "less than 10 cm per week". Any person who has participated in a controlled dig (British-Tel Aviv style) knows what this means.”

                    I cannot comment one way or another on the practices of the dig at Qeiyafa, but I have participated in controlled digs. I also know that Finkelstein has thrown out a red herring for those who do not have a background in archaeology, or a limited one.

                    Comparing Megiddo to Qeiyafa truly gives new meaning to the concept of “an apples and oranges” comparison. Megiddo has ca. 26 occupational phases, many built right on top of one another, and others difficult to distinguish as independent phases or renovations from previous phases.

                    Qeiyafa, however, features only two known occupational layers, Hellenistic and Iron IIA (Areas A & B). Miscellaneous sherds from other periods have been found, but no actual occupational areas for such phases are known to exist on the site (to my knowledge).

                    Thus there is no necessity whatsoever for the archaeological team at Qeiyafa to dig there as though there were digging at Megiddo. It would be a virtual waste of effort, and an absolute waste of financial resources, which—as any archaeologist will tell you—do not grow on trees (unless his name is Finkelstein, and he has a similar agenda).

                    So, let’s be careful about what kind of smoke we are blowing. And by the way, I despise the taste of all fish, both salmon, perch, walleye, trout, bass, and of course, even red herring.

                    Hoping this restores some objectivity,

                    Douglas Petrovich
                    Toronto, Canada

                    [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]




                    [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                  • eliot braun
                    I don t feel particularly threatened by good archaeological discussion, but I am annoyed at the tone of Lemche s posting and the politicization it brings up.
                    Message 9 of 30 , May 9, 2012
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                      I don't feel particularly threatened by good archaeological discussion, but I am annoyed at the tone of Lemche's posting and the politicization it brings up. We are dealing with the ANE and not modern boundaries or polities. I also am not pleased with the hype on this particular site, as I don't think it is going to prove or disprove the veracity of biblical texts. It may, however, shed light on different periods.We know what Lemche's position is and I believed that it was no longer thought to be a proper subject to be bandied about on the list. He's entitled to his position and we can all agree or disagree. This list is not meant to for propaganda but rather for real, fruitful discussion.

                      I'm traveling and I have neither seen nor heard the hype. Can someone perhaps post some specific comments on what was found and how it might, or might not help us understand ancient reality in the Iron Age of the southern Levant? Also, might it not be done with a lack of exaggerated reactions of people so we may term this a "scholarly" list?

                      Best wishes to all for a fruitful exchange of ideas without hyperbole.
                       
                      Eliot Braun, Ph D
                      Sr. Fellow WF Albright Institute of Archaeological Research, Jerusalem
                      Associate Researcher Centre de Recherche Français de Jérusalem
                      PO Box 21, Har Adar 90836 Israel
                      Tel 972-2-5345687, Cell 972-50-2231096


                      ________________________________
                      From: Niels Peter Lemche <npl@...>
                      To: "ANE-2@yahoogroups.com" <ANE-2@yahoogroups.com>
                      Sent: Wednesday, May 9, 2012 6:05 PM
                      Subject: SV: [ANE-2] Re: Qeiyafa discoveries


                       
                      I had to read Israel Finkelstein and Alexander Fantalkin, Khirbet Qeiyafa: An Unsensational Archaeological and Historical Interpretation,
                      TEL AVIV Vol. 39, 2012, 38–63, again and a little more careful.

                      The article is simply exposing to Qeiyafa excavation as totally incompetent, bordering on humbug (the reconstruction of the southern "gate" with photos before and after the reconstruction, so that you can look for yourself). The excavation proceeded with an astonishing speed leaving no time for a proper stratifigraphical analysis. Finkelstein mentions the progress at Qeiyafa in this way: in two weeks the excavation penetrated up to 2.5 m, a pace of over 1.25 m per week, comparing to the speed at Megiddo of in average of "less than 10 cm per week". Any person who has participated in a controlled dig (British-Tel Aviv style) knows what this means.

                      There are many hilarious observations in the article mentioned such as the discussion about the Hellenistic city wall built after 1932 (C.E.).

                      We may ask what is going on. First the "sensationalists" discoveries in Jerusalem, now this "excavation". It is obvious that we have here the Hebrew University's archaeologists engaged in trying to take down "minimalist" historical research, but also critical biblical scholarship at large. The site has been destroyed and made of no use for further discussion. But what is really going on. Do we here see a Israeli institution engaged in saving what can be saved feeling threatened by an ongoing Palestinian rewriting of the history of the country? We are definitely talking about a sharpening of the climate of discussion. Some people down there feel threatened because their hyperstory -- the continuous story of ancient Israel to the present reconquista of modern Israelis -- is being rivaled by another hyperstory? We saw recently the quite hysterical reaction to Shlomo Sand, The Invention of the Jewish People, and now this totally nonsense, bringing in what
                      Finkelstein and Fantalkin adaptly characterize as pre-Spinozian Bible reading.

                      It is quite sickening.

                      Niels Peter Lemche





                      [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                    • Raz Kletter
                      Eliot, Salvage excavations must too be made in a scientific pace - just like Tel Rehov (an example not in dispute). In 95% of salvage excavations, there is no
                      Message 10 of 30 , May 9, 2012
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                        Eliot,
                        Salvage excavations must too be made in a scientific pace - just like
                        Tel Rehov (an example not in dispute). In 95% of salvage excavations, there
                        is no justification at all for pressuring the archaeologists to finish
                        fast. If a house or a road or some military installation will be finished a
                        month or two earlier/ later, it affects mainly budgets, and even that,
                        by very few percents.
                        Very few excavations are urgent, when delays are life-threatening or
                        cause considerable public inconvenience; but these are *rare*.
                        The pressures "to finish fast no matter what" are many times supported
                        or even produced by archaeologists in power, who do not understand or do
                        not care for archaeology, but for budgets and profits. They do not let
                        excavation managers decide the pace of excavation. This is true everywhere,
                        but especially for salvage excavations of "private" university companies,
                        whose profits go to the pockets of universities and archaeological
                        departments.
                        A person who created and continues to encourage this system complains
                        now about a hasty pace of excavation; but only because its finds do not fit
                        his theory. The word for it is hypocricity.
                        In addition, even for Megiddo, one could find squares or loci excavated
                        faster than the pace set as an example.
                        Regardless: Douglas, you will end up eating your hat for lunch. An
                        occupation layer must be excavated with the same meticolous care,
                        whether the site has 1 layer or 1456. Removing fast a late layer in order
                        to expose the Iron Age is an archaeological sin. With some other points I
                        sympathise; but in these matters your defence ends up a discrimination.
                        Raz Kletter


                        [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                      • Michael Banyai
                        Douglas, you cannot make such a statement such as :” The $65,000 question, of course, is how many scholars Finkelstein put on the payroll who oppose his
                        Message 11 of 30 , May 9, 2012
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                          Douglas,



                          you cannot make such a statement such as :” The $65,000 question, of course, is how many scholars Finkelstein put on the payroll who oppose his views. How do you spell “objective scholarship”, again?“



                          One year ago I was ousted by NPL from the mailing list for Biblical studies, because I protested against the slender concerning Finkelstein being sold out to the „others“ such as for example the BAR, or to those opposing minimalism, and taking much money for this.



                          It looks to me like a contradiction. I cannot understand how Mr. Finkelstein could get - according to the circles around Jim West and NPL - at the same time money for turning his back on his former supportive views for the minimalists and next year pay those opposing “maximalist” views?



                          I was last year horrified to read this on the mailing list for Biblical studies and see there the statement countless times repeated – there would be big money flowing to Mr. Finkelstein to turn against the “minimalists”. However, considering that the ball against Finkelstein was first thrown by Jim West, NPL and company and nobody else beside me protested against such lowly incriminations and this costed me the participation to that list, there must exist a kernel of truth out there. Hope none of the afore mentioned will take the hardship to contradict me, since the discussion is well documented by now.



                          My supposition is: one is playing hardball instead of biblical studies.



                          I hope, we will experience someday a serious retraction from the side of NPL and a return to fair games.



                          Best regards,



                          Michael Banyai



                          [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                        • Niels Peter Lemche
                          It is strange how this discussion that started and went on on Biblical Studies suddenly turned up here. Somebody who hid the wrong address? As it is some
                          Message 12 of 30 , May 10, 2012
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                            It is strange how this discussion that started and went on on Biblical Studies suddenly turned up here. Somebody who hid the wrong address? As it is some points made here have to do with elements of a discussion on another list, and as you know, it is not legal to publish from private lists without permission.

                            So we have to get this right.

                            And to Eliot,

                            It is very much a political issue. There is no such thing as nonpolitical archaeology. In Israel it is part of the national hyperstory. If you think otherwise, you must be very naive or young. There is also now some very impressive studies on this phenomenon which has been known for some generations. Raz Kletter, who is active here, has his "Just Past" published a few years ago, but there are more including Silberman, "Digging for God and Country" covering the period from 1799 to 1917, and Nadia Abu el-Haj, "Facts on the Ground". And also Terje Oestigaard "Political Archaeology and Holy Nationalism".

                            It would be wonderful to have the old days of the Mandate back, when you could dig at, say Ugarit or Tello or in other places without this political interference. But already before the mandate it is known that the Karkemish excavations took place at the same time as the Germans were building the railway bridge over the Euphrates. Some of the archaeologists active there were also on the list of people employed by the secret service.

                            Niels Peter Lemche




                            -----Oprindelig meddelelse-----
                            Fra: ANE-2@yahoogroups.com [mailto:ANE-2@yahoogroups.com] På vegne af eliot braun
                            Sendt: den 10 maj 2012 06:22
                            Til: ANE-2@yahoogroups.com
                            Emne: Re: SV: [ANE-2] Re: Qeiyafa discoveries

                            I don't feel particularly threatened by good archaeological discussion, but I am annoyed at the tone of Lemche's posting and the politicization it brings up. We are dealing with the ANE and not modern boundaries or polities. I also am not pleased with the hype on this particular site, as I don't think it is going to prove or disprove the veracity of biblical texts. It may, however, shed light on different periods.We know what Lemche's position is and I believed that it was no longer thought to be a proper subject to be bandied about on the list. He's entitled to his position and we can all agree or disagree. This list is not meant to for propaganda but rather for real, fruitful discussion.

                            I'm traveling and I have neither seen nor heard the hype. Can someone perhaps post some specific comments on what was found and how it might, or might not help us understand ancient reality in the Iron Age of the southern Levant? Also, might it not be done with a lack of exaggerated reactions of people so we may term this a "scholarly" list?

                            Best wishes to all for a fruitful exchange of ideas without hyperbole.
                             
                            Eliot Braun, Ph D
                            Sr. Fellow WF Albright Institute of Archaeological Research, Jerusalem Associate Researcher Centre de Recherche Français de Jérusalem PO Box 21, Har Adar 90836 Israel Tel 972-2-5345687, Cell 972-50-2231096


                            ________________________________
                          • Xianhua
                            Dear Prof Lemche, Thanks for the bibliography. I m just thinking of sending out a graduate student, with some background in archaeology, to work for a
                            Message 13 of 30 , May 10, 2012
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                              Dear Prof Lemche,

                              Thanks for the bibliography. I'm just thinking of sending out a graduate student, with some background in archaeology, to work for a dissertation on history of archaeogy in the Levant. Do you have ideas where and whom I may send him to? Advices from other colleagues are of course more than welcome.

                              Sincerely yours,

                              Xianhua
                              2012-05-10

                              ---
                              Prof. Xianhua Wang, PhD
                              School of History and Culture
                              Sichuan University, CHINA

                              At 15:17 on 2012-05-10, "Niels Peter Lemche"<npl@...> wrote:

                              >It is strange how this discussion that started and went on on Biblical Studies suddenly turned up here. Somebody who hid the wrong address? As it is some points made here have to do with elements of a discussion on another list, and as you know, it is not legal to publish from private lists without permission.
                              >
                              >So we have to get this right.
                              >
                              >And to Eliot,
                              >
                              >It is very much a political issue. There is no such thing as nonpolitical archaeology. In Israel it is part of the national hyperstory. If you think otherwise, you must be very naive or young. There is also now some very impressive studies on this phenomenon which has been known for some generations. Raz Kletter, who is active here, has his "Just Past" published a few years ago, but there are more including Silberman, "Digging for God and Country" covering the period from 1799 to 1917, and Nadia Abu el-Haj, "Facts on the Ground". And also Terje Oestigaard "Political Archaeology and Holy Nationalism".
                              >
                              >It would be wonderful to have the old days of the Mandate back, when you could dig at, say Ugarit or Tello or in other places without this political interference. But already before the mandate it is known that the Karkemish excavations took place at the same time as the Germans were building the railway bridge over the Euphrates. Some of the archaeologists active there were also on the list of people employed by the secret service.
                              >
                              >Niels Peter Lemche
                            • Niels Peter Lemche
                              I know of the European project, we up here were competitors but lost. Otherwise I will not interfere with your process of running backwards. Any politicians in
                              Message 14 of 30 , May 10, 2012
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                                I know of the European project, we up here were competitors but lost.

                                Otherwise I will not interfere with your process of running backwards. Any politicians in the family?


                                Now to see how this kind of archaeology is seen among Scandinavian archaeologists, let me quote from the introduction to Oestigaard, "Political Archaeology ..." (p.7):

                                "Biblical archaeology and Israeli national archaeology are branches of archaeology with little impact in the general archaeological debate because its practitioners are only dealing with a little time segment and certain specific problems in the Middle East. But as a result of this, these branches of archaeology have an almost exclusive hegemony in the knowledge production upon which Israel bases its nation state. The general attitude towards biblical archaeology and Israel's past within the archaeological circles in Northern Europe is that the past is politically misused in the Middle East and that biblical archaeology research and Israeli nationalist archaeology are biased. When I started working with biblical archaeology very few of my colleagues understood why I bothered. Biblical archaeological approaches to the past are not "scientific" and its scholars are not part of the theoretical discourse, with the consequence that there was, allegedly, no need to worry."

                                But again, how this discussion strayed from its home to ANE-2 is past my knowledge.

                                At least everything along this line should be cc to Biblical studies.

                                Niels Peter Lemche





                                -----Oprindelig meddelelse-----
                                Fra: ANE-2@yahoogroups.com [mailto:ANE-2@yahoogroups.com] På vegne af Douglas Petrovich
                                Sendt: den 10 maj 2012 03:50
                                Til: ANE-2@yahoogroups.com
                                Emne: [ANE-2] Re: Qeiyafa discoveries

                                Niels,

                                On the contrary, nothing I said is horrible talk. Obviously you (and Raz) read a bit too much into my words, which would not be the first time (though perhaps not for Raz). To you both, I would state unequivocally that I never advocated an un-careful or imprecise approach to excavation. I simply stated the obvious: the time it takes to excavate per meter is vastly different between a site with 26 occupational levels and a site with 2 occupational levels. Any on-list archaeologist who chimes in would agree with this, I would venture my lunch money.

                                But even with this as a given, the speed with which a team digs down depends on a myriad of factors: number of diggers; experience, strength, and fitness of diggers; daily hours of work; temperature during work hours; time of year; types of tools; lengths of breaks; type of soil; system of record-keeping; etc., etc.

                                “He is destroying his evidence without even being able to document what he is doing.”

                                This implies a dubious presupposition: the certainty of the presence of actual, artifactual evidence. If he is digging down from ground level, and there are no occupational levels until the Hellenistic period, what evidence is there to find? Whether he knows that ahead of time or not, which he very well may, is even somewhat irrelevant.

                                On one of my digs, I began a square from virgin soil and did not reach any occupational level until the Persian period. We dug at a solid clip until we reached that level, at which time we slowed down tremendously. This is how archaeology works. There is no requirement to wet-sift soil that has no artifactual evidence in it, and there is no need to dig it with a trowel on hands and knees.

                                This is especially true when the chief archaeologist on the dig knows that there is no occupational level where you’re digging, and he/she wants you to “move along” rapidly. I had to do this on numerous occasions, which is difficult because of my meticulous personality. However, when the chief excavator is confident, and calls the shots, it is time to dig faster and deeper with each thrust of the shovel.

                                This is simply reality in the archaeological world. It may seem different in a 5th-floor office, but so be it. During such times of digging, the only artifacts that are found, anyway, are those out of stratigraphical sequence, such as random potsherds or scarabs. But as to whether Garfinkel has destroyed any of his evidence is a curious claim to make without specific evidence to support the charge. Did he commit any archaeological faux pas? I do not know, but I cannot accept your claim uncritically. If higher criticism teaches us anything, it is to be a critical thinker. So I would suggest that we be so and do so with Garfinkel.

                                “With Garfinkel's speed he could easily go through 2 or 3 layers without recognizing it.”

                                This sounds ominous, but the point becomes mute if no wrong practices were practiced, and if no phases were missed. Moreover, even if, for example, he plowed through a Byzantine squatter’s layer because he wanted to get to the Iron-Age levels, all he does in effect—as far as the Iron-II (and/or late Iron-I) evidence goes, anyway—is invalidate evidence from the Byzantine layer; the value of his work on the Iron-Age level(s) is NOT automatically invalidated or compromised.

                                Any suggestions to the opposite are just illogical and misleading to those who read the reports that we fieldworkers prepare. Could Garfinkel have done a sloppy job on the Iron-Age levels? Sure, it is possible. However, the speed with which he arrived at that level, and the potential damage he may have done to potentially later phases, has nothing to do with determining how well he excavated the Iron levels, or whether we can judge his findings to be untrustworthy. Niels, you really need to be careful with your criticisms and evaluations here.

                                “And as some of the layers at Megiddo are up to a meter deep, this is not an excuse for being sloppy.”

                                Agreed. But you are preaching to the choir here.

                                “If there is no money enough--and money is certainly also a problem at Megiddo--then there is no money, and the excavation has to wait for another day.”

                                I was not referring to Finkelstein’s Megiddo dig at all, though certainly he has less problems with support-raising than 99.9% of the chief archaeologists out there, especially with people such as Eric Cline behind and involved with his dig.

                                No, I was referring to Finkelstein’s “Reconstructing Ancient Israel” project, which is funded by the coffers of the European Research Council. This is a multi-million-dollar goldmine designed to propagate (exponentially!) his late-date, non-united-monarchy perspective. Everybody digging in Israel knows about this, and I would be shocked if it is news to you. The $65,000 question, of course, is how many scholars Finkelstein put on the payroll who oppose his views. How do you spell “objective scholarship”, again?

                                “Garfinkel is destroying out [sic] past and I suggest that there is a special political reason for doing it.”

                                This accusation is pure silliness unless there is evidence to prove otherwise.

                                “As his aim is to prove the Bible right, he of course know in advance what he will find.”

                                Come on, Niels, how do you know this? If I can hear confirmation of this from several Israeli archaeologists from varying camps, such as Aren Maeir or the like, then I would consider this potentially credible. Until then, the only thing I have to say is that I wonder how many archaeologists you have accused similarly who have not produced evidence that compromises major positions you hold or agendas you have.

                                Yours for the enjoyment of the process,

                                Doug Petrovich
                                Toronto, Canada

                                [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]



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                              • Niels Peter Lemche
                                First of all, all history is a narrative, and sometimes a very personal one. I do not think that I banished Mr Banyai from the said list, but at a certain
                                Message 15 of 30 , May 10, 2012
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                                  First of all, all history is a narrative, and sometimes a very personal one. I do not think that I banished Mr Banyai from the said list, but at a certain point he, well frustrated the list owner to a degree where he was banished.

                                  I do not recognize the last part of Mr Banyai's mail but can only say that for some years Finkelstein has characterized his standing as being in the middle, a bad position because you will end up in a crossfire.

                                  I, however, think that the discussion is losing its purpose and cannot be very interesting to people belonging to other branches of the ANE. Maybe time to sum up and go back to biblical studies.


                                  Niels Peter Lemche





                                  -----Oprindelig meddelelse-----
                                  Fra: ANE-2@yahoogroups.com [mailto:ANE-2@yahoogroups.com] På vegne af Michael Banyai
                                  Sendt: den 10 maj 2012 08:28
                                  Til: ANE-2@yahoogroups.com
                                  Cc: 'Douglas Petrovich'
                                  Emne: [ANE-2] Qeiyafa discoveries

                                  Douglas,



                                  you cannot make such a statement such as :” The $65,000 question, of course, is how many scholars Finkelstein put on the payroll who oppose his views. How do you spell “objective scholarship”, again?“



                                  One year ago I was ousted by NPL from the mailing list for Biblical studies, because I protested against the slender concerning Finkelstein being sold out to the „others“ such as for example the BAR, or to those opposing minimalism, and taking much money for this.



                                  It looks to me like a contradiction. I cannot understand how Mr. Finkelstein could get - according to the circles around Jim West and NPL - at the same time money for turning his back on his former supportive views for the minimalists and next year pay those opposing “maximalist” views?



                                  I was last year horrified to read this on the mailing list for Biblical studies and see there the statement countless times repeated – there would be big money flowing to Mr. Finkelstein to turn against the “minimalists”. However, considering that the ball against Finkelstein was first thrown by Jim West, NPL and company and nobody else beside me protested against such lowly incriminations and this costed me the participation to that list, there must exist a kernel of truth out there. Hope none of the afore mentioned will take the hardship to contradict me, since the discussion is well documented by now.



                                  My supposition is: one is playing hardball instead of biblical studies.



                                  I hope, we will experience someday a serious retraction from the side of NPL and a return to fair games.



                                  Best regards,



                                  Michael Banyai



                                  [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]



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                                • Niels Peter Lemche
                                  Dear Xianhua, London would always be a superb place but I do not know the people there now-a-days. I can ask Philip Davies for names. Here we have such
                                  Message 16 of 30 , May 10, 2012
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                                    Dear Xianhua,

                                    London would always be a superb place but I do not know the people there now-a-days. I can ask Philip Davies for names.
                                    Here we have such activities in Copenhagen as well as in Aarhus. Aarhus is mostly classical archaeology but also have a fine tradition in Scandinavian archaeology (as does Copenhagen qua the National Museum), but the Niebuhr department may have something to offer. But still, London is presumably the best place for Middle Eastern studies.

                                    English language will not be a problem wherever you choose.

                                    NP


                                    -----Oprindelig meddelelse-----
                                    Fra: ANE-2@yahoogroups.com [mailto:ANE-2@yahoogroups.com] På vegne af Xianhua
                                    Sendt: den 10 maj 2012 09:28
                                    Til: ANE-2
                                    Emne: Re: SV: SV: [ANE-2] Re: Qeiyafa discoveries

                                    Dear Prof Lemche,

                                    Thanks for the bibliography. I'm just thinking of sending out a graduate student, with some background in archaeology, to work for a dissertation on history of archaeogy in the Levant. Do you have ideas where and whom I may send him to? Advices from other colleagues are of course more than welcome.

                                    Sincerely yours,

                                    Xianhua
                                    2012-05-10

                                    ---
                                  • Xianhua
                                    Many thanks! Sincerely yours, Xianhua 2012-05-10 ... Prof. Xianhua Wang, PhD School of History and Culture Sichuan University, CHINA
                                    Message 17 of 30 , May 10, 2012
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                                      Many thanks!

                                      Sincerely yours,

                                      Xianhua
                                      2012-05-10

                                      ---
                                      Prof. Xianhua Wang, PhD
                                      School of History and Culture
                                      Sichuan University, CHINA

                                      At 15:53 on 2012-05-10, "Niels Peter Lemche"<npl@...> wrote:

                                      >Dear Xianhua,
                                      >
                                      >London would always be a superb place but I do not know the people there now-a-days. I can ask Philip Davies for names.
                                      >Here we have such activities in Copenhagen as well as in Aarhus. Aarhus is mostly classical archaeology but also have a fine tradition in Scandinavian archaeology (as does Copenhagen qua the National Museum), but the Niebuhr department may have something to offer. But still, London is presumably the best place for Middle Eastern studies.
                                      >
                                      >English language will not be a problem wherever you choose.
                                      >
                                      >NP
                                    • eliot braun
                                      Raz et al.   We live in the real world, unfortunately. I myself would like to see no reason for salvage work, but that is not realistic, as you all probably
                                      Message 18 of 30 , May 10, 2012
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                                        Raz et al.
                                          We live in the real world, unfortunately. I myself would like to see no reason for salvage work, but that is not realistic, as you all probably know. Recently I received a blog on the terrible problem of looting. I agree that it is a problem, but I also think, and I've stated this, that the bulk of destruction of the archaeological record around the world is due to development by officially sanctioned polities. Far more is destroyed by govts. than by looters in most countries. That is a crime that our successors will castigate us for. 
                                           Raz you are thinking of your experiences in Israel. I have news for you. They are virtually the same around the world in the ANE and in the Americas, where I've been occasionally. Salvage work is an art. You cannot imagine what I felt like when I worked at Yiftah'el in Israel and realized that in less than a week they were about to destroy the site! It prompted me to take a bulldozer (yes, a damnded bulldozer) to dig a deep trench to see what, if anything might be destroyed. I ended up destroying a part of a PPNB house, and saving a large part of the site for ca. 20 years until recently when another group did some more work. I paid a very heavy personal price for that and for writing that I thought that there was entirely too much digging going on; I still do. 
                                           Raz, you are a gadfly, which we need, but had you had the real feel for salvage work you might have stayed and contributed. I did it for 28 years and I'm proud that I managed, despite some really difficult times, to do some work I'm proud of. 
                                            
                                         
                                        Eliot Braun, Ph D
                                        Sr. Fellow WF Albright Institute of Archaeological Research, Jerusalem
                                        Associate Researcher Centre de Recherche Français de Jérusalem
                                        PO Box 21, Har Adar 90836 Israel
                                        Tel 972-2-5345687, Cell 972-50-2231096


                                        ________________________________
                                        From: Raz Kletter <kletterr@...>
                                        To: ANE-2@yahoogroups.com
                                        Sent: Thursday, May 10, 2012 9:13 AM
                                        Subject: Re: [ANE-2] Re: Qeiyafa discoveries


                                         
                                        Eliot,
                                        Salvage excavations must too be made in a scientific pace - just like
                                        Tel Rehov (an example not in dispute). In 95% of salvage excavations, there
                                        is no justification at all for pressuring the archaeologists to finish
                                        fast. If a house or a road or some military installation will be finished a
                                        month or two earlier/ later, it affects mainly budgets, and even that,
                                        by very few percents.
                                        Very few excavations are urgent, when delays are life-threatening or
                                        cause considerable public inconvenience; but these are *rare*.
                                        The pressures "to finish fast no matter what" are many times supported
                                        or even produced by archaeologists in power, who do not understand or do
                                        not care for archaeology, but for budgets and profits. They do not let
                                        excavation managers decide the pace of excavation. This is true everywhere,
                                        but especially for salvage excavations of "private" university companies,
                                        whose profits go to the pockets of universities and archaeological
                                        departments.
                                        A person who created and continues to encourage this system complains
                                        now about a hasty pace of excavation; but only because its finds do not fit
                                        his theory. The word for it is hypocricity.
                                        In addition, even for Megiddo, one could find squares or loci excavated
                                        faster than the pace set as an example.
                                        Regardless: Douglas, you will end up eating your hat for lunch. An
                                        occupation layer must be excavated with the same meticolous care,
                                        whether the site has 1 layer or 1456. Removing fast a late layer in order
                                        to expose the Iron Age is an archaeological sin. With some other points I
                                        sympathise; but in these matters your defence ends up a discrimination.
                                        Raz Kletter

                                        [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]




                                        [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                                      • Niels Peter Lemche
                                        Dear Eliott, If you or somebody can find it, Dario Pfoh wrote a hilarious play about this fifty years ago (saw it in 1962). It has to do with a situation in
                                        Message 19 of 30 , May 10, 2012
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                                          Dear Eliott,

                                          If you or somebody can find it, Dario Pfoh wrote a hilarious play about this fifty years ago (saw it in 1962). It has to do with a situation in Italy where salvation excavations may delay a building project for several years.

                                          Maybe somebody here knows the title.

                                          Niels Peter Lemche



                                          -----Oprindelig meddelelse-----
                                          Fra: ANE-2@yahoogroups.com [mailto:ANE-2@yahoogroups.com] På vegne af eliot braun
                                          Sendt: den 10 maj 2012 18:53
                                          Til: ANE-2@yahoogroups.com
                                          Emne: Re: [ANE-2] Re: salvage archaeology

                                          Raz et al.
                                            We live in the real world, unfortunately. I myself would like to see no reason for salvage work, but that is not realistic, as you all probably know. Recently I received a blog on the terrible problem of looting. I agree that it is a problem, but I also think, and I've stated this, that the bulk of destruction of the archaeological record around the world is due to development by officially sanctioned polities. Far more is destroyed by govts. than by looters in most countries. That is a crime that our successors will castigate us for. 
                                             Raz you are thinking of your experiences in Israel. I have news for you. They are virtually the same around the world in the ANE and in the Americas, where I've been occasionally. Salvage work is an art. You cannot imagine what I felt like when I worked at Yiftah'el in Israel and realized that in less than a week they were about to destroy the site! It prompted me to take a bulldozer (yes, a damnded bulldozer) to dig a deep trench to see what, if anything might be destroyed. I ended up destroying a part of a PPNB house, and saving a large part of the site for ca. 20 years until recently when another group did some more work. I paid a very heavy personal price for that and for writing that I thought that there was entirely too much digging going on; I still do. 
                                             Raz, you are a gadfly, which we need, but had you had the real feel for salvage work you might have stayed and contributed. I did it for 28 years and I'm proud that I managed, despite some really difficult times, to do some work I'm proud of. 
                                              
                                           
                                          Eliot Braun, Ph D
                                          Sr. Fellow WF Albright Institute of Archaeological Research, Jerusalem
                                          Associate Researcher Centre de Recherche Français de Jérusalem
                                          PO Box 21, Har Adar 90836 Israel
                                          Tel 972-2-5345687, Cell 972-50-2231096


                                          ________________________________
                                          From: Raz Kletter <kletterr@...>
                                          To: ANE-2@yahoogroups.com
                                          Sent: Thursday, May 10, 2012 9:13 AM
                                          Subject: Re: [ANE-2] Re: Qeiyafa discoveries


                                           
                                          Eliot,
                                          Salvage excavations must too be made in a scientific pace - just like
                                          Tel Rehov (an example not in dispute). In 95% of salvage excavations, there
                                          is no justification at all for pressuring the archaeologists to finish
                                          fast. If a house or a road or some military installation will be finished a
                                          month or two earlier/ later, it affects mainly budgets, and even that,
                                          by very few percents.
                                          Very few excavations are urgent, when delays are life-threatening or
                                          cause considerable public inconvenience; but these are *rare*.
                                          The pressures "to finish fast no matter what" are many times supported
                                          or even produced by archaeologists in power, who do not understand or do
                                          not care for archaeology, but for budgets and profits. They do not let
                                          excavation managers decide the pace of excavation. This is true everywhere,
                                          but especially for salvage excavations of "private" university companies,
                                          whose profits go to the pockets of universities and archaeological
                                          departments.
                                          A person who created and continues to encourage this system complains
                                          now about a hasty pace of excavation; but only because its finds do not fit
                                          his theory. The word for it is hypocricity.
                                          In addition, even for Megiddo, one could find squares or loci excavated
                                          faster than the pace set as an example.
                                          Regardless: Douglas, you will end up eating your hat for lunch. An
                                          occupation layer must be excavated with the same meticolous care,
                                          whether the site has 1 layer or 1456. Removing fast a late layer in order
                                          to expose the Iron Age is an archaeological sin. With some other points I
                                          sympathise; but in these matters your defence ends up a discrimination.
                                          Raz Kletter

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                                        • eliot braun
                                          After 38 years of working archaeology in Israel I will say that never, during 28 of them when I worked for the govt. was I told, hinted at or otherwise
                                          Message 20 of 30 , May 10, 2012
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                                            After 38 years of working archaeology in Israel I will say that never, during 28 of them when I worked for the govt. was I told, hinted at or otherwise influenced to subvert my perception of the archaeological record. Not only that, but while in the early years of the state there was a major push towards finding the past of ancient Israel and Jews, it is long since gone! One need only look at the lists of publications of Israeli institutions to understand that. In Israel there is a spate of work being done on Byzantine and later Islamic periods with no bias one way or the other. While a small collection of Israelis and Palestinians seem to have political axes to grind, my experience is that most are intent on revealing the past, as best as may be done. There are certainly no directives towards anything else. Any such idea is just another canard, one in a long line of canards that arrive from certain directions at regular intervals. I suggest that
                                            people take a good look at the publications of other countries in the region and see that nationalistic interpretations are not at all confined to Israeli publications. It's just that certain people seem only to pick up only on them because they have very specific agendas put blinders on them. Narrow horizons do not make for good scholarship. 

                                            Eliot Braun, Ph D.
                                            Sr. Fellow WF Albright Institute of Archaeological Research, Jerusalem
                                            Associate Researcher Centre de Recherche Français de Jérusalem
                                            PO Box 21, Har Adar 90836 Israel
                                            Tel 972-2-5345687, Cell 972-50-2231096


                                            ________________________________
                                            From: Niels Peter Lemche <npl@...>
                                            To: "ANE-2@yahoogroups.com" <ANE-2@yahoogroups.com>
                                            Sent: Thursday, May 10, 2012 10:33 AM
                                            Subject: SV: [ANE-2] Re: Qeiyafa discoveries


                                             
                                            I know of the European project, we up here were competitors but lost.

                                            Otherwise I will not interfere with your process of running backwards. Any politicians in the family?


                                            Now to see how this kind of archaeology is seen among Scandinavian archaeologists, let me quote from the introduction to Oestigaard, "Political Archaeology ..." (p.7):

                                            "Biblical archaeology and Israeli national archaeology are branches of archaeology with little impact in the general archaeological debate because its practitioners are only dealing with a little time segment and certain specific problems in the Middle East. But as a result of this, these branches of archaeology have an almost exclusive hegemony in the knowledge production upon which Israel bases its nation state. The general attitude towards biblical archaeology and Israel's past within the archaeological circles in Northern Europe is that the past is politically misused in the Middle East and that biblical archaeology research and Israeli nationalist archaeology are biased. When I started working with biblical archaeology very few of my colleagues understood why I bothered. Biblical archaeological approaches to the past are not "scientific" and its scholars are not part of the theoretical discourse, with the consequence that there was, allegedly, no
                                            need to worry."

                                            But again, how this discussion strayed from its home to ANE-2 is past my knowledge.

                                            At least everything along this line should be cc to Biblical studies.

                                            Niels Peter Lemche





                                            -----Oprindelig meddelelse-----
                                            Fra: ANE-2@yahoogroups.com [mailto:ANE-2@yahoogroups.com] På vegne af Douglas Petrovich
                                            Sendt: den 10 maj 2012 03:50
                                            Til: ANE-2@yahoogroups.com
                                            Emne: [ANE-2] Re: Qeiyafa discoveries

                                            Niels,

                                            On the contrary, nothing I said is horrible talk. Obviously you (and Raz) read a bit too much into my words, which would not be the first time (though perhaps not for Raz). To you both, I would state unequivocally that I never advocated an un-careful or imprecise approach to excavation. I simply stated the obvious: the time it takes to excavate per meter is vastly different between a site with 26 occupational levels and a site with 2 occupational levels. Any on-list archaeologist who chimes in would agree with this, I would venture my lunch money.

                                            But even with this as a given, the speed with which a team digs down depends on a myriad of factors: number of diggers; experience, strength, and fitness of diggers; daily hours of work; temperature during work hours; time of year; types of tools; lengths of breaks; type of soil; system of record-keeping; etc., etc.

                                            “He is destroying his evidence without even being able to document what he is doing.”

                                            This implies a dubious presupposition: the certainty of the presence of actual, artifactual evidence. If he is digging down from ground level, and there are no occupational levels until the Hellenistic period, what evidence is there to find? Whether he knows that ahead of time or not, which he very well may, is even somewhat irrelevant.

                                            On one of my digs, I began a square from virgin soil and did not reach any occupational level until the Persian period. We dug at a solid clip until we reached that level, at which time we slowed down tremendously. This is how archaeology works. There is no requirement to wet-sift soil that has no artifactual evidence in it, and there is no need to dig it with a trowel on hands and knees.

                                            This is especially true when the chief archaeologist on the dig knows that there is no occupational level where you’re digging, and he/she wants you to “move along” rapidly. I had to do this on numerous occasions, which is difficult because of my meticulous personality. However, when the chief excavator is confident, and calls the shots, it is time to dig faster and deeper with each thrust of the shovel.

                                            This is simply reality in the archaeological world. It may seem different in a 5th-floor office, but so be it. During such times of digging, the only artifacts that are found, anyway, are those out of stratigraphical sequence, such as random potsherds or scarabs. But as to whether Garfinkel has destroyed any of his evidence is a curious claim to make without specific evidence to support the charge. Did he commit any archaeological faux pas? I do not know, but I cannot accept your claim uncritically. If higher criticism teaches us anything, it is to be a critical thinker. So I would suggest that we be so and do so with Garfinkel.

                                            “With Garfinkel's speed he could easily go through 2 or 3 layers without recognizing it.”

                                            This sounds ominous, but the point becomes mute if no wrong practices were practiced, and if no phases were missed. Moreover, even if, for example, he plowed through a Byzantine squatter’s layer because he wanted to get to the Iron-Age levels, all he does in effect—as far as the Iron-II (and/or late Iron-I) evidence goes, anyway—is invalidate evidence from the Byzantine layer; the value of his work on the Iron-Age level(s) is NOT automatically invalidated or compromised.

                                            Any suggestions to the opposite are just illogical and misleading to those who read the reports that we fieldworkers prepare. Could Garfinkel have done a sloppy job on the Iron-Age levels? Sure, it is possible. However, the speed with which he arrived at that level, and the potential damage he may have done to potentially later phases, has nothing to do with determining how well he excavated the Iron levels, or whether we can judge his findings to be untrustworthy. Niels, you really need to be careful with your criticisms and evaluations here.

                                            “And as some of the layers at Megiddo are up to a meter deep, this is not an excuse for being sloppy.”

                                            Agreed. But you are preaching to the choir here.

                                            “If there is no money enough--and money is certainly also a problem at Megiddo--then there is no money, and the excavation has to wait for another day.”

                                            I was not referring to Finkelstein’s Megiddo dig at all, though certainly he has less problems with support-raising than 99.9% of the chief archaeologists out there, especially with people such as Eric Cline behind and involved with his dig.

                                            No, I was referring to Finkelstein’s “Reconstructing Ancient Israel” project, which is funded by the coffers of the European Research Council. This is a multi-million-dollar goldmine designed to propagate (exponentially!) his late-date, non-united-monarchy perspective. Everybody digging in Israel knows about this, and I would be shocked if it is news to you. The $65,000 question, of course, is how many scholars Finkelstein put on the payroll who oppose his views. How do you spell “objective scholarship”, again?

                                            “Garfinkel is destroying out [sic] past and I suggest that there is a special political reason for doing it.”

                                            This accusation is pure silliness unless there is evidence to prove otherwise.

                                            “As his aim is to prove the Bible right, he of course know in advance what he will find.”

                                            Come on, Niels, how do you know this? If I can hear confirmation of this from several Israeli archaeologists from varying camps, such as Aren Maeir or the like, then I would consider this potentially credible. Until then, the only thing I have to say is that I wonder how many archaeologists you have accused similarly who have not produced evidence that compromises major positions you hold or agendas you have.

                                            Yours for the enjoyment of the process,

                                            Doug Petrovich
                                            Toronto, Canada

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                                          • aren
                                            NPL and others, The noxious and obnoxious tone that you and some of the other contributors have reverted to in this thread, and the overall generalizations
                                            Message 21 of 30 , May 14, 2012
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                                              NPL and others,
                                              The noxious and obnoxious tone that you and some of the other contributors have reverted to in this thread, and the overall generalizations about biblical archaeology is quite embarrassing - but mainly towards you! While there is properly-done archaeology and poorly-done archaeology in Israel - and in many other places, I believe that there is your fare share of properly-done and poorly-done biblical studies - and not all agree on who should be placed where in this latter field. People in glass houses should not throw stones...

                                              Your overall vilification of biblical archaeology betrays, more than anything else, a deep lack of knowledge of what is going on in archaeology of Israel nowadays, and the fact that in many issues, some of the most advanced inter-disciplinary studies in archaeology are being conducted today in Israel (just follow the amount of articles from Israel published in the Journal of Archaeological Science).

                                              Also, the amount of large scale international funding for several such projects (such as the ERC project that Israel and Steve run, but others, including several of mine) is excellent evidence of this as well.

                                              If you want anyone to take you seriously (and sometimes I wonder about this) - deal with specific complaints in a serious manner. For example, just mentioning S. Zand's book (which is a horribly-researched book with such profound lack of knowledge, riddled with mistakes and misconceptions, by a 2nd rate scholar who was not even very good when he published about the history of French cinema - not to mention history of earlier periods) as evidence of how other opinions are attacked, does not make your remarks correct - or his shoddy research worthwhile repeating.


                                              Aren Maeir
                                              Card-carrying, proud member of the Cabal of Biblical Archaeologists.
                                            • Niels Peter Lemche
                                              Aren, I simply don t agree with what is happened in Jerusalem. AS you know well, I have a series of friends in Tel Aviv, Finkelstein, Ussishkin, Herzog, and I
                                              Message 22 of 30 , May 14, 2012
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                                                Aren,

                                                I simply don't agree with what is happened in Jerusalem. AS you know well, I have a series of friends in Tel Aviv, Finkelstein, Ussishkin, Herzog, and I find most of what they do OK. But when it comes to biblical archaeology, and a methodology used by Garfinkel, it is worse than no archaeology. I have been quoting a Scandinavian archaeologist lately, and a number of time. When he told his colleagues that he was dealing with biblical archaeology, they asked him why? It had nothing to contribute to the discourse of modern archaeology. I think you should address this contempt from colleagues rather than start a flame war here. My friends in archaeology here and in Israel will most likely agree.

                                                Interesting that you should mention Shlomo Sand (whose name you mispelled) on a day when he seems to have been attacked physically. Says something about the intellectual climate in your country. The first part of his book is interesting, the second part probably very speculative. But I understand that you defend your story. Most people would do so. Mine is different, and it doesn't help to use invectives.

                                                Hope this will end a discussion that is not fit for ANE-2. We both have free access to the list. Don't misuse it.

                                                Niels Peter Lemche

                                                -----Oprindelig meddelelse-----
                                                Fra: ANE-2@yahoogroups.com [mailto:ANE-2@yahoogroups.com] På vegne af aren
                                                Sendt: den 14 maj 2012 22:11
                                                Til: ANE-2@yahoogroups.com
                                                Emne: SV: [ANE-2] Re: salvage archaeology

                                                NPL and others,
                                                The noxious and obnoxious tone that you and some of the other contributors have reverted to in this thread, and the overall generalizations about biblical archaeology is quite embarrassing - but mainly towards you! While there is properly-done archaeology and poorly-done archaeology in Israel - and in many other places, I believe that there is your fare share of properly-done and poorly-done biblical studies - and not all agree on who should be placed where in this latter field. People in glass houses should not throw stones...

                                                Your overall vilification of biblical archaeology betrays, more than anything else, a deep lack of knowledge of what is going on in archaeology of Israel nowadays, and the fact that in many issues, some of the most advanced inter-disciplinary studies in archaeology are being conducted today in Israel (just follow the amount of articles from Israel published in the Journal of Archaeological Science).

                                                Also, the amount of large scale international funding for several such projects (such as the ERC project that Israel and Steve run, but others, including several of mine) is excellent evidence of this as well.

                                                If you want anyone to take you seriously (and sometimes I wonder about this) - deal with specific complaints in a serious manner. For example, just mentioning S. Zand's book (which is a horribly-researched book with such profound lack of knowledge, riddled with mistakes and misconceptions, by a 2nd rate scholar who was not even very good when he published about the history of French cinema - not to mention history of earlier periods) as evidence of how other opinions are attacked, does not make your remarks correct - or his shoddy research worthwhile repeating.


                                                Aren Maeir
                                                Card-carrying, proud member of the Cabal of Biblical Archaeologists.



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                                              • aren
                                                NPL, I apologize for my tone as well, but sometimes a load shout is needed to quiet a crowd... The fact that there may be archaeologists in Scandinavia that
                                                Message 23 of 30 , May 14, 2012
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                                                  NPL,
                                                  I apologize for my tone as well, but sometimes a load shout is needed to quiet a crowd...
                                                  The fact that there may be archaeologists in Scandinavia that have a misconceptions about what biblical archaeology is, still does not give license make generalizations about the field.
                                                  I as well don't agree with much of what Yossi Garfinkel has written about Qeiyafa, but definitely do agree with some of what he writes. I don't think that Yossi defines what biblical archaeology is today. In fact, more than anything else, the stuff that he touted last week is a part of this field that is fortunately, rapidly disappearing. There is a lot of excellent, first rate work going on in the field, which many (and perhaps you as well) seem not to be aware of, perhaps since a lot is published in purely archaeological professional forums.

                                                  Aren Maeir
                                                • Niels Peter Lemche
                                                  Dear Aren, Thank you for the clarification. The attitude up here has been that biblical archaeologists have a very limited idea of what is going on in textual
                                                  Message 24 of 30 , May 14, 2012
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                                                    Dear Aren,

                                                    Thank you for the clarification. The attitude up here has been that biblical archaeologists have a very limited idea of what is going on in textual studies but have simply been equating the biblical text with historical truth seeking for its confirmation in the ground. And it made no difference whether you spoke to Nordic archaeologists or archaeologist engaged in the classical or Oriental world. Many did not see into their own mind where national history also became a guideline. I guess that the reason has been that modern history appeared in combination with the new national states after the French revolution, and archaeology provided the illustrations of that history.

                                                    The archaeologist we brought with us the last time I came with my students (in 2010) was very upset because of what he saw and listened to. He has never dug in Israel but in Jordan and Syria where the Danes have been quite active. He is also a specialist in Stone Age archeology.

                                                    Why don't you arrange a conference between you people and some European archaeologists? That could help a lot. There need to be an exchange. I am in no doubt that you have a lot to contribute to such a discussion.

                                                    By the way, I think that I heard that Garfinkel's special area is not the Iron Age but much earlier. It may explain why he made those mistakes.

                                                    Further, BAR has a quote supposingly by me of saying that biblical archaeologists are low life. Well, it was a summary of a discussion found in Oestigaard, and not anything I endorsed. But I believe that Shanks did not understand the context.

                                                    All the best

                                                    Niels Peter Lemche



                                                    -----Oprindelig meddelelse-----
                                                    Fra: ANE-2@yahoogroups.com [mailto:ANE-2@yahoogroups.com] På vegne af aren
                                                    Sendt: den 15 maj 2012 04:33
                                                    Til: ANE-2@yahoogroups.com
                                                    Emne: SV: [ANE-2] Re: salvage archaeology

                                                    NPL,
                                                    I apologize for my tone as well, but sometimes a load shout is needed to quiet a crowd...
                                                    The fact that there may be archaeologists in Scandinavia that have a misconceptions about what biblical archaeology is, still does not give license make generalizations about the field.
                                                    I as well don't agree with much of what Yossi Garfinkel has written about Qeiyafa, but definitely do agree with some of what he writes. I don't think that Yossi defines what biblical archaeology is today. In fact, more than anything else, the stuff that he touted last week is a part of this field that is fortunately, rapidly disappearing. There is a lot of excellent, first rate work going on in the field, which many (and perhaps you as well) seem not to be aware of, perhaps since a lot is published in purely archaeological professional forums.

                                                    Aren Maeir



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                                                  • aren
                                                    NPL, I regularly am in contact, and collaborate and publish, with quite a few European archaeologists, both those who are connected closely with the
                                                    Message 25 of 30 , May 15, 2012
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                                                      NPL,
                                                      I regularly am in contact, and collaborate and publish, with quite a few European archaeologists, both those who are connected closely with the archaeology of the ANE, as well as those working mainly in other periods and cultures, and have not come across any of the attitude that you speak of. I would believe this indicates only a lack of knowledge on the part of the Scandinavian archaeologists...

                                                      Unfortunately, in general, I have the felling that there is a lot of negative generalizations about Israel in Scandinavia nowadays, not only in relationship to archaeology...

                                                      Aren Maeir
                                                      gath.wordpress.com


                                                      --- In ANE-2@yahoogroups.com, Niels Peter Lemche <npl@...> wrote:
                                                      >
                                                      > Dear Aren,
                                                      >
                                                      > Thank you for the clarification. The attitude up here has been that biblical archaeologists have a very limited idea of what is going on in textual studies but have simply been equating the biblical text with historical truth seeking for its confirmation in the ground. And it made no difference whether you spoke to Nordic archaeologists or archaeologist engaged in the classical or Oriental world. Many did not see into their own mind where national history also became a guideline. I guess that the reason has been that modern history appeared in combination with the new national states after the French revolution, and archaeology provided the illustrations of that history.
                                                      >
                                                      > The archaeologist we brought with us the last time I came with my students (in 2010) was very upset because of what he saw and listened to. He has never dug in Israel but in Jordan and Syria where the Danes have been quite active. He is also a specialist in Stone Age archeology.
                                                      >
                                                      > Why don't you arrange a conference between you people and some European archaeologists? That could help a lot. There need to be an exchange. I am in no doubt that you have a lot to contribute to such a discussion.
                                                      >
                                                      > By the way, I think that I heard that Garfinkel's special area is not the Iron Age but much earlier. It may explain why he made those mistakes.
                                                      >
                                                      > Further, BAR has a quote supposingly by me of saying that biblical archaeologists are low life. Well, it was a summary of a discussion found in Oestigaard, and not anything I endorsed. But I believe that Shanks did not understand the context.
                                                      >
                                                      > All the best
                                                      >
                                                      > Niels Peter Lemche
                                                      >
                                                      >
                                                      >
                                                      > -----Oprindelig meddelelse-----
                                                      > Fra: ANE-2@yahoogroups.com [mailto:ANE-2@yahoogroups.com] På vegne af aren
                                                      > Sendt: den 15 maj 2012 04:33
                                                      > Til: ANE-2@yahoogroups.com
                                                      > Emne: SV: [ANE-2] Re: salvage archaeology
                                                      >
                                                      > NPL,
                                                      > I apologize for my tone as well, but sometimes a load shout is needed to quiet a crowd...
                                                      > The fact that there may be archaeologists in Scandinavia that have a misconceptions about what biblical archaeology is, still does not give license make generalizations about the field.
                                                      > I as well don't agree with much of what Yossi Garfinkel has written about Qeiyafa, but definitely do agree with some of what he writes. I don't think that Yossi defines what biblical archaeology is today. In fact, more than anything else, the stuff that he touted last week is a part of this field that is fortunately, rapidly disappearing. There is a lot of excellent, first rate work going on in the field, which many (and perhaps you as well) seem not to be aware of, perhaps since a lot is published in purely archaeological professional forums.
                                                      >
                                                      > Aren Maeir
                                                      >
                                                      >
                                                      >
                                                      > ------------------------------------
                                                      >
                                                      > Yahoo! Groups Links
                                                      >
                                                      >
                                                      >
                                                      >
                                                      > -----
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                                                      > Checked by AVG - www.avg.com
                                                      > Version: 2012.0.2171 / Virus Database: 2425/4998 - Release Date: 05/14/12
                                                      >
                                                    • Niels Peter Lemche
                                                      Bad here in Sweden (espec. Malmö), but not so bad in Denmark. But in general, Israel has not been able to control the media here any more. Has to do with the
                                                      Message 26 of 30 , May 15, 2012
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                                                        Bad here in Sweden (espec. Malmö), but not so bad in Denmark. But in general, Israel has not been able to control the media here any more. Has to do with the large Muslim population segments all over.

                                                        NP

                                                        -----Oprindelig meddelelse-----
                                                        Fra: ANE-2@yahoogroups.com [mailto:ANE-2@yahoogroups.com] På vegne af aren
                                                        Sendt: den 15 maj 2012 21:48
                                                        Til: ANE-2@yahoogroups.com
                                                        Emne: SV: [ANE-2] Re: salvage archaeology

                                                        NPL,
                                                        I regularly am in contact, and collaborate and publish, with quite a few European archaeologists, both those who are connected closely with the archaeology of the ANE, as well as those working mainly in other periods and cultures, and have not come across any of the attitude that you speak of. I would believe this indicates only a lack of knowledge on the part of the Scandinavian archaeologists...

                                                        Unfortunately, in general, I have the felling that there is a lot of negative generalizations about Israel in Scandinavia nowadays, not only in relationship to archaeology...

                                                        Aren Maeir
                                                        gath.wordpress.com


                                                        --- In ANE-2@yahoogroups.com, Niels Peter Lemche <npl@...> wrote:
                                                        >
                                                        > Dear Aren,
                                                        >
                                                        > Thank you for the clarification. The attitude up here has been that biblical archaeologists have a very limited idea of what is going on in textual studies but have simply been equating the biblical text with historical truth seeking for its confirmation in the ground. And it made no difference whether you spoke to Nordic archaeologists or archaeologist engaged in the classical or Oriental world. Many did not see into their own mind where national history also became a guideline. I guess that the reason has been that modern history appeared in combination with the new national states after the French revolution, and archaeology provided the illustrations of that history.
                                                        >
                                                        > The archaeologist we brought with us the last time I came with my students (in 2010) was very upset because of what he saw and listened to. He has never dug in Israel but in Jordan and Syria where the Danes have been quite active. He is also a specialist in Stone Age archeology.
                                                        >
                                                        > Why don't you arrange a conference between you people and some European archaeologists? That could help a lot. There need to be an exchange. I am in no doubt that you have a lot to contribute to such a discussion.
                                                        >
                                                        > By the way, I think that I heard that Garfinkel's special area is not the Iron Age but much earlier. It may explain why he made those mistakes.
                                                        >
                                                        > Further, BAR has a quote supposingly by me of saying that biblical archaeologists are low life. Well, it was a summary of a discussion found in Oestigaard, and not anything I endorsed. But I believe that Shanks did not understand the context.
                                                        >
                                                        > All the best
                                                        >
                                                        > Niels Peter Lemche
                                                        >
                                                        >
                                                        >
                                                        > -----Oprindelig meddelelse-----
                                                        > Fra: ANE-2@yahoogroups.com [mailto:ANE-2@yahoogroups.com] På vegne af aren
                                                        > Sendt: den 15 maj 2012 04:33
                                                        > Til: ANE-2@yahoogroups.com
                                                        > Emne: SV: [ANE-2] Re: salvage archaeology
                                                        >
                                                        > NPL,
                                                        > I apologize for my tone as well, but sometimes a load shout is needed to quiet a crowd...
                                                        > The fact that there may be archaeologists in Scandinavia that have a misconceptions about what biblical archaeology is, still does not give license make generalizations about the field.
                                                        > I as well don't agree with much of what Yossi Garfinkel has written about Qeiyafa, but definitely do agree with some of what he writes. I don't think that Yossi defines what biblical archaeology is today. In fact, more than anything else, the stuff that he touted last week is a part of this field that is fortunately, rapidly disappearing. There is a lot of excellent, first rate work going on in the field, which many (and perhaps you as well) seem not to be aware of, perhaps since a lot is published in purely archaeological professional forums.
                                                        >
                                                        > Aren Maeir
                                                        >
                                                        >
                                                        >
                                                        > ------------------------------------
                                                        >
                                                        > Yahoo! Groups Links
                                                        >
                                                        >
                                                        >
                                                        >
                                                        > -----
                                                        > No virus found in this message.
                                                        > Checked by AVG - www.avg.com
                                                        > Version: 2012.0.2171 / Virus Database: 2425/4998 - Release Date: 05/14/12
                                                        >




                                                        ------------------------------------

                                                        Yahoo! Groups Links




                                                        -----
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                                                        Checked by AVG - www.avg.com
                                                        Version: 2012.0.2171 / Virus Database: 2425/5000 - Release Date: 05/15/12
                                                      • Niels Peter Lemche
                                                        sorry for this last mail. Shouldn t have been to the list. Straying far away from the purpose of the list. Niels Peter Lemche ... Fra: ANE-2@yahoogroups.com
                                                        Message 27 of 30 , May 15, 2012
                                                        • 0 Attachment
                                                          sorry for this last mail. Shouldn't have been to the list. Straying far away from the purpose of the list.

                                                          Niels Peter Lemche

                                                          -----Oprindelig meddelelse-----
                                                          Fra: ANE-2@yahoogroups.com [mailto:ANE-2@yahoogroups.com] På vegne af Niels Peter Lemche
                                                          Sendt: den 15 maj 2012 22:00
                                                          Til: ANE-2@yahoogroups.com
                                                          Emne: SV: [ANE-2] Re: salvage archaeology

                                                          Bad here in Sweden (espec. Malmö), but not so bad in Denmark. But in general, Israel has not been able to control the media here any more. Has to do with the large Muslim population segments all over.

                                                          NP

                                                          -----Oprindelig meddelelse-----
                                                          Fra: ANE-2@yahoogroups.com [mailto:ANE-2@yahoogroups.com] På vegne af aren
                                                          Sendt: den 15 maj 2012 21:48
                                                          Til: ANE-2@yahoogroups.com
                                                          Emne: SV: [ANE-2] Re: salvage archaeology

                                                          NPL,
                                                          I regularly am in contact, and collaborate and publish, with quite a few European archaeologists, both those who are connected closely with the archaeology of the ANE, as well as those working mainly in other periods and cultures, and have not come across any of the attitude that you speak of. I would believe this indicates only a lack of knowledge on the part of the Scandinavian archaeologists...

                                                          Unfortunately, in general, I have the felling that there is a lot of negative generalizations about Israel in Scandinavia nowadays, not only in relationship to archaeology...

                                                          Aren Maeir
                                                          gath.wordpress.com


                                                          --- In ANE-2@yahoogroups.com, Niels Peter Lemche <npl@...> wrote:
                                                          >
                                                          > Dear Aren,
                                                          >
                                                          > Thank you for the clarification. The attitude up here has been that biblical archaeologists have a very limited idea of what is going on in textual studies but have simply been equating the biblical text with historical truth seeking for its confirmation in the ground. And it made no difference whether you spoke to Nordic archaeologists or archaeologist engaged in the classical or Oriental world. Many did not see into their own mind where national history also became a guideline. I guess that the reason has been that modern history appeared in combination with the new national states after the French revolution, and archaeology provided the illustrations of that history.
                                                          >
                                                          > The archaeologist we brought with us the last time I came with my students (in 2010) was very upset because of what he saw and listened to. He has never dug in Israel but in Jordan and Syria where the Danes have been quite active. He is also a specialist in Stone Age archeology.
                                                          >
                                                          > Why don't you arrange a conference between you people and some European archaeologists? That could help a lot. There need to be an exchange. I am in no doubt that you have a lot to contribute to such a discussion.
                                                          >
                                                          > By the way, I think that I heard that Garfinkel's special area is not the Iron Age but much earlier. It may explain why he made those mistakes.
                                                          >
                                                          > Further, BAR has a quote supposingly by me of saying that biblical archaeologists are low life. Well, it was a summary of a discussion found in Oestigaard, and not anything I endorsed. But I believe that Shanks did not understand the context.
                                                          >
                                                          > All the best
                                                          >
                                                          > Niels Peter Lemche
                                                          >
                                                          >
                                                          >
                                                          > -----Oprindelig meddelelse-----
                                                          > Fra: ANE-2@yahoogroups.com [mailto:ANE-2@yahoogroups.com] På vegne af aren
                                                          > Sendt: den 15 maj 2012 04:33
                                                          > Til: ANE-2@yahoogroups.com
                                                          > Emne: SV: [ANE-2] Re: salvage archaeology
                                                          >
                                                          > NPL,
                                                          > I apologize for my tone as well, but sometimes a load shout is needed to quiet a crowd...
                                                          > The fact that there may be archaeologists in Scandinavia that have a misconceptions about what biblical archaeology is, still does not give license make generalizations about the field.
                                                          > I as well don't agree with much of what Yossi Garfinkel has written about Qeiyafa, but definitely do agree with some of what he writes. I don't think that Yossi defines what biblical archaeology is today. In fact, more than anything else, the stuff that he touted last week is a part of this field that is fortunately, rapidly disappearing. There is a lot of excellent, first rate work going on in the field, which many (and perhaps you as well) seem not to be aware of, perhaps since a lot is published in purely archaeological professional forums.
                                                          >
                                                          > Aren Maeir
                                                          >
                                                          >
                                                          >
                                                          > ------------------------------------
                                                          >
                                                          > Yahoo! Groups Links
                                                          >
                                                          >
                                                          >
                                                          >
                                                          > -----
                                                          > No virus found in this message.
                                                          > Checked by AVG - www.avg.com
                                                          > Version: 2012.0.2171 / Virus Database: 2425/4998 - Release Date: 05/14/12
                                                          >




                                                          ------------------------------------

                                                          Yahoo! Groups Links




                                                          -----
                                                          No virus found in this message.
                                                          Checked by AVG - www.avg.com
                                                          Version: 2012.0.2171 / Virus Database: 2425/5000 - Release Date: 05/15/12


                                                          ------------------------------------

                                                          Yahoo! Groups Links




                                                          -----
                                                          No virus found in this message.
                                                          Checked by AVG - www.avg.com
                                                          Version: 2012.0.2171 / Virus Database: 2425/5000 - Release Date: 05/15/12
                                                        • eliot braun
                                                          To the owners of this list, especially and to the readers: Is this list turning into a political discussion for people who have narrow agendas, of which this
                                                          Message 28 of 30 , May 15, 2012
                                                          • 0 Attachment
                                                            To the owners of this list, especially and to the readers:

                                                            Is this list turning into a political discussion for people who have narrow agendas, of which this is an unfortunate example? Who does the monitoring?

                                                            What do the Israeli media have to do with salvage archaeology?

                                                             
                                                            Eliot Braun, Ph D
                                                            Sr. Fellow WF Albright Institute of Archaeological Research, Jerusalem
                                                            Associate Researcher Centre de Recherche Français de Jérusalem
                                                            PO Box 21, Har Adar 90836 Israel
                                                            Tel 972-2-5345687, Cell 972-50-2231096


                                                            ________________________________
                                                            From: Niels Peter Lemche <npl@...>
                                                            To: "ANE-2@yahoogroups.com" <ANE-2@yahoogroups.com>
                                                            Sent: Tuesday, May 15, 2012 11:01 PM
                                                            Subject: SV: [ANE-2] Re: salvage archaeology


                                                             
                                                            sorry for this last mail. Shouldn't have been to the list. Straying far away from the purpose of the list.

                                                            Niels Peter Lemche

                                                            -----Oprindelig meddelelse-----
                                                            Fra: ANE-2@yahoogroups.com [mailto:ANE-2@yahoogroups.com] På vegne af Niels Peter Lemche
                                                            Sendt: den 15 maj 2012 22:00
                                                            Til: ANE-2@yahoogroups.com
                                                            Emne: SV: [ANE-2] Re: salvage archaeology

                                                            Bad here in Sweden (espec. Malmö), but not so bad in Denmark. But in general, Israel has not been able to control the media here any more. Has to do with the large Muslim population segments all over.

                                                            NP

                                                            -----Oprindelig meddelelse-----
                                                            Fra: ANE-2@yahoogroups.com [mailto:ANE-2@yahoogroups.com] På vegne af aren
                                                            Sendt: den 15 maj 2012 21:48
                                                            Til: ANE-2@yahoogroups.com
                                                            Emne: SV: [ANE-2] Re: salvage archaeology

                                                            NPL,
                                                            I regularly am in contact, and collaborate and publish, with quite a few European archaeologists, both those who are connected closely with the archaeology of the ANE, as well as those working mainly in other periods and cultures, and have not come across any of the attitude that you speak of. I would believe this indicates only a lack of knowledge on the part of the Scandinavian archaeologists...

                                                            Unfortunately, in general, I have the felling that there is a lot of negative generalizations about Israel in Scandinavia nowadays, not only in relationship to archaeology...

                                                            Aren Maeir
                                                            gath.wordpress.com

                                                            --- In ANE-2@yahoogroups.com, Niels Peter Lemche <npl@...> wrote:
                                                            >
                                                            > Dear Aren,
                                                            >
                                                            > Thank you for the clarification. The attitude up here has been that biblical archaeologists have a very limited idea of what is going on in textual studies but have simply been equating the biblical text with historical truth seeking for its confirmation in the ground. And it made no difference whether you spoke to Nordic archaeologists or archaeologist engaged in the classical or Oriental world. Many did not see into their own mind where national history also became a guideline. I guess that the reason has been that modern history appeared in combination with the new national states after the French revolution, and archaeology provided the illustrations of that history.
                                                            >
                                                            > The archaeologist we brought with us the last time I came with my students (in 2010) was very upset because of what he saw and listened to. He has never dug in Israel but in Jordan and Syria where the Danes have been quite active. He is also a specialist in Stone Age archeology.
                                                            >
                                                            > Why don't you arrange a conference between you people and some European archaeologists? That could help a lot. There need to be an exchange. I am in no doubt that you have a lot to contribute to such a discussion.
                                                            >
                                                            > By the way, I think that I heard that Garfinkel's special area is not the Iron Age but much earlier. It may explain why he made those mistakes.
                                                            >
                                                            > Further, BAR has a quote supposingly by me of saying that biblical archaeologists are low life. Well, it was a summary of a discussion found in Oestigaard, and not anything I endorsed. But I believe that Shanks did not understand the context.
                                                            >
                                                            > All the best
                                                            >
                                                            > Niels Peter Lemche
                                                            >
                                                            >
                                                            >
                                                            > -----Oprindelig meddelelse-----
                                                            > Fra: ANE-2@yahoogroups.com [mailto:ANE-2@yahoogroups.com] På vegne af aren
                                                            > Sendt: den 15 maj 2012 04:33
                                                            > Til: ANE-2@yahoogroups.com
                                                            > Emne: SV: [ANE-2] Re: salvage archaeology
                                                            >
                                                            > NPL,
                                                            > I apologize for my tone as well, but sometimes a load shout is needed to quiet a crowd...
                                                            > The fact that there may be archaeologists in Scandinavia that have a misconceptions about what biblical archaeology is, still does not give license make generalizations about the field.
                                                            > I as well don't agree with much of what Yossi Garfinkel has written about Qeiyafa, but definitely do agree with some of what he writes. I don't think that Yossi defines what biblical archaeology is today. In fact, more than anything else, the stuff that he touted last week is a part of this field that is fortunately, rapidly disappearing. There is a lot of excellent, first rate work going on in the field, which many (and perhaps you as well) seem not to be aware of, perhaps since a lot is published in purely archaeological professional forums.
                                                            >
                                                            > Aren Maeir
                                                            >
                                                            >
                                                            >
                                                            > ------------------------------------
                                                            >
                                                            > Yahoo! Groups Links
                                                            >
                                                            >
                                                            >
                                                            >
                                                            > -----
                                                            > No virus found in this message.
                                                            > Checked by AVG - www.avg.com
                                                            > Version: 2012.0.2171 / Virus Database: 2425/4998 - Release Date: 05/14/12
                                                            >

                                                            ------------------------------------

                                                            Yahoo! Groups Links

                                                            -----
                                                            No virus found in this message.
                                                            Checked by AVG - www.avg.com
                                                            Version: 2012.0.2171 / Virus Database: 2425/5000 - Release Date: 05/15/12

                                                            ------------------------------------

                                                            Yahoo! Groups Links

                                                            -----
                                                            No virus found in this message.
                                                            Checked by AVG - www.avg.com
                                                            Version: 2012.0.2171 / Virus Database: 2425/5000 - Release Date: 05/15/12



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