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SV: SV: [ANE-2] Re: R. Gmirkin on the date of the Pentateuch>dating the Pentateuch

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  • Niels Peter Lemche
    Dear George, disdain is probably too strong an impression. I was pointing at deficiencies, I did not even indicate notions such as socio-dialects (proposing
    Message 1 of 15 , May 3, 2006
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      Dear George,

      'disdain' is probably too strong an impression. I was pointing at deficiencies, I did not even indicate notions such as socio-dialects (proposing biblical standard Hebrew as such a one), or geographical considerations.

      I am in total agreement when you mention archaeology. Happily (or we would soon be out of business) they have never found enough, or say so. The idea of archaeology as a hard science free of interpretation and ambiguity is of course also foolharded. To Bill Dever's frustration, I actually took part in a excavation, the one at Tel Jezreel.

      As to Hypothesenmacherei, my former ph.d.-student, Tilde Binger, once reported back from the 4th intergalaxian Earth conference in 3004. A marvellous archaeological finding from the 20th century, only a tiny one: A fragment of a movie, a short one where some young ladies were dancing in a dark wood while it was raining. The archaeologist didn't really understand the meaning of this finding but was convinced that it was very important for reconstructing 20th century religion. The text was difficult to understand although simple: Singing in the rain.

      Tilde's opinion was that much reconstruction of, say Ugaritic religion has followed a similar procedure.

      Niels Peter Lemche

      -----Oprindelig meddelelse-----
      Fra: ANE-2@yahoogroups.com [mailto:ANE-2@yahoogroups.com] På vegne af gfsomsel@...
      Sendt: 3. maj 2006 13:07
      Til: ANE-2@yahoogroups.com
      Emne: Re: SV: [ANE-2] Re: R. Gmirkin on the date of the Pentateuch>dating the Pentateuch

      You apparently disdain the practice of linguistics as being too subjective or not based on sufficient grounds in that it lacks a continuous and uninterrupted history on which to base conclusions. I say, on the other hand, that archaeology likewise is deficient in that it cannot account for perishable materials and thus bases it conclusions solely on artifacts which are not subject to rapid decay. If someone were to excavate some sites in the United States several millenia from now, they might say that the presidencies of such men as Washington, Roosevelt, Reagan and George W. Bush were simply based upon fantasy. They might even say that a country called the United States of America never existed depending upon where they excavated and what they were able to discover there which had escaped corruption. It is all well and good to base one's judgments upon demonstrable facts, but it is all too possible to be overly skeptical regarding anything for which direct evidence is n!
      ot discoverable in situ.


      george
      gfsomsel
      _________

      -- "Niels Peter Lemche" <npl@...> wrote:

      Dear George,

      As I indicated, I have little faith in this discussion about early
      biblical Hebrew and late Biblical Hebrew (including orthography). To use
      a chronological framework in a linguistic analysis seems a bit primitive
      when we have so few anchors for the analysis.

      So far scholars still have problems figuring out the rules within the
      HB.

      As to Zeitgeist, this is correct. It would thus be possible to argue
      that parts of the NT are placed within the same Zeitgeist as some
      essential parts of the DSS: not that the answers are identical, but the
      questions are.

      But we still miss an anchor because your dating of 1. Isaiah is
      questionable because you use the text to date itself. We 'know' (alias
      assume) that the little apocalypsis in Isa 24-27 is one of the latest
      texts in the HB, and that parts of Isa 1-39 are either embedded in a
      deuteronomistic phrased narrative (espec. Isa 7), or is simply identical
      with 2 Kgs (the final part). It is accordingly problematic to say that
      we have parts here that go back to the time of Isaiah, although it is
      commonly assumed to be so. The lack of stringency in the discussion
      among biblical scholars is generally too well-known and I doubt that it
      is necessary to expose it in this way.

      So, if we assume that Isaiah 1-39 is basically a late 8th century or
      early 7th century text, you have a point, but only if we assume.
      Biblical scholarship has built up a house of cards by assuming this, and
      on the basis of this assumption to carry on to the next hypothesis,
      based on the assumption, making a new postulate accepted as an argument
      on which to build a new argument, alias a postulate. It is really very
      sorry that the notion of logic has played a very little role.

      So, basically: What evidence (apart from selfconfirming assumptions) do
      you really have for anything in the HB being pre-3rd or 2nd century,
      apart from the text of the Chatef Hinnom amulets (the Aronite Blessing)?
      It is like John Collins in his new book, The Bible after Babel, 2006)
      who argues that there is plenty of evidence for a late 7th century
      authorship of parts of the HB, whereas the minimalists with there date
      in the Hellenistic-Roman period has no evidence. I am most sorry, apart
      from the above mentioned amulets, Collins has no evidence, only
      assumptions and generally accepted opinions; the minimalists have the
      evidence in the form of physically preserved manuscripts.

      And please, don't tell me about the importance of the bullae from
      Jerusalem from the time of Josiah or Zedekiah: Let's hope that some of
      them are genuine!

      Niels Peter Lemche

      PS: Your argument about the linguistical development of Hebrew from, say
      the 7th to the 3rd century would be greatly helped if we had an
      uninterrupted sequence of material. But there is very little from the
      6th, 5th century and 4th century from Israel/Palestine.

      [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]






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    • arenmaeir
      Among the many stumbling blocks that do exist for the hardcore minimalist viewpoints on the dating of earlier components of the biblical text are: 1) The
      Message 2 of 15 , May 3, 2006
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        Among the many stumbling blocks that do exist for the "hardcore
        minimalist" viewpoints on the dating of earlier components of the
        biblical text are:
        1) The developmental sequence of biblical Hebrew;
        2) The evidence relating to the Philistines.

        Regarding no. 1 - it is very easy to say that one does not accept,
        or that one is suspicious of the accepted linguistic understanding
        of the development of the Hebrew language, especially if one is not
        a properly trained and competent scholar in ancient Semitic
        languages. According to this method, things that are difficult to
        digest according to a certain viewpoint are best ignored, or if not,
        explained in the most convoluted way possible (e.g., see the Dan
        inscription).

        In one of the earlier posts it was claimed that there is little
        epigraphic material from Palestine/Israel for the later Iron Age and
        the Persian period (save for "Ketef Hinom" amulets - which I'm glad
        to see are accepted as late Iron Age and not Hellenistic ...).
        WOW! This really changes everything I know about Iron Age
        archaeology (and I do know a little about it, even if I did not
        participate in the Jezreel excavations :-))!
        What about (for Hebrew, for example): the Arad Hebrew ostraca, the
        Lachish ostraca, the Mezad Hashavyahu letter, bullae that come from
        clear archaeological contexts (such as the large collection from
        late Iron Age City of David, Jerusalem, but others as well);
        For cognate languages (Aramaic, Edomite, Philistine, etc.): The
        Ekron "Patgaya" inscription and other late Philistine inscriptions,
        the late Iron Age Edomite inscriptions from the Negev, etc.
        Also, for the Persian period, there is a LARGE collection of
        inscriptions from Israel/Palestine in Aramaic, such as the Wadi
        Daliyeh papyrus, Arad, and hundreds of ostraca from Edumea.
        Please - don't tell me that all of these are Hellenistic as well!

        Regarding no. 2: As to the Philistines - speaking as someone who
        knows Philistine material culture, the hints (or direct references)
        to it in the biblical text can ONLY be appropriate in the Iron Age
        (the Philistines did not exist in the Persian period - or later).
        BTW - as opposed to what might seem to be Israel Finkelstein's
        opinion in his JSOT article (but in fact, is not ...), I don't think
        that all references to the Philistines in the Bible must date to the
        late Iron Age - earlier dates are logical, and highly likely as well.

        Just my two bits,

        Aren Maeir
        from Bar-b-que smoke-covered Jerusalem


        Prof. Aren M. Maeir
        Chair, The Martin (Szusz) Department of Land of Israel Studies and
        Archaeology
        Director, The Tell es-Safi/Gath Archaeological Project
        Bar-Ilan University
        Ramat-Gan, 52900 ISRAEL
        Tel(W): +972-(0)3-5318299/8350; Fax(W): +972-(0)3-6354941
        Tel(H): +972-(0)2-6710404; (C):+972-(0)54-6205082
        aren@...; maeira@... email :
        www.dig-gath.org project website :
        http://gath.wordpress.com project weblog :
        _______________________________________________



        > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
      • RUSSELLGMIRKIN@aol.com
        Dear Aren Maeir, Regarding no. 2: As to the Philistines - speaking as someone who knows Philistine material culture, the hints (or direct references) to it in
        Message 3 of 15 , May 3, 2006
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          Dear Aren Maeir,


          Regarding no. 2: As to the Philistines - speaking as someone who
          knows Philistine material culture, the hints (or direct references)
          to it in the biblical text can ONLY be appropriate in the Iron Age
          (the Philistines did not exist in the Persian period - or later).




          It seems to me (and others have noted this in print) that Goliath is
          unmistakably dressed in the armor of a Greek hoplite, complete with spear-carrier.

          Best regards,
          Russell Gmirkin


          [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
        • arenmaeir
          ... This is not so! There are asepcts that are similar to the panoply of a Greek hoplite, while other aspects are QUITE different. Even if they are similar to
          Message 4 of 15 , May 3, 2006
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            --- In ANE-2@yahoogroups.com, RUSSELLGMIRKIN@... wrote:
            This is not so! There are asepcts that are similar to the panoply of
            a Greek hoplite, while other aspects are QUITE different. Even if
            they are similar to a Greek hoplite, as I. Finkelstein has argued, a
            late Iron Age dating is most logical. And by the way - even if there
            are late aspects (e.g., Hellenistic) in this text (and I'm not at
            all convinced of this from a point of view of the depiction of the
            weapons and armour), this does not date the earliest parts of the
            text, and their relationship to the reality of Philistine-Israelite
            martial confrontations THAT ONLY COULD HAVE OCCURRED IN THE IRON AGE!

            Best,
            Aren Maeir
            Jerusalem

            >
            >
            > Dear Aren Maeir,
            >
            >
            > Regarding no. 2: As to the Philistines - speaking as someone who
            > knows Philistine material culture, the hints (or direct
            references)
            > to it in the biblical text can ONLY be appropriate in the Iron
            Age
            > (the Philistines did not exist in the Persian period - or
            later).
            >
            >
            >
            >
            > It seems to me (and others have noted this in print) that Goliath
            is
            > unmistakably dressed in the armor of a Greek hoplite, complete
            with spear-carrier.
            >
            > Best regards,
            > Russell Gmirkin
            >
            >
            > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
            >
          • gfsomsel@juno.com
            That was all, and Patroclus armed himself in Achilles gleaming bronze. First he wrapped his legs in the well-made greaves, fastened behind the heels with
            Message 5 of 15 , May 3, 2006
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              That was all, and Patroclus armed himself in Achilles' gleaming bronze. First he wrapped his legs in the well-made greaves, fastened behind the heels with silver ankle-clasps, next he strapped the breastplate round his chest, blazoned with stars�swift Achilles' own�then over his shoulder Patroclus slung the sword, the fine bronze blade with its silver-studded hilt, and then the shield-strap and the sturdy, massive shield and over his powerful head he set the well-forged helmet, the horsehair crest atop it tossing, bristling terror, and he took two rugged spears that fit his grip. And Achilles' only weapon Patroclus did not take was the great man's spear, weighted, heavy, tough. No other Achaean fighter could heft that shaft, only Achilles had the skill to wield it well: Pelian ash it was, a gift to his father Peleus prsented by Chiron once, hewn on Pelion's crest to be the death of heroes.
              .
              .
              .
              The Trojans, soon as they saw Menoetius' gallant son, himself and his loyal driver flare in brazen gear�all their courage quaked, their columns buckled, thinking swift Achilles had tossed to the winds his hard rage that held him back by the ships and chosen friendship toward the Argives now. Each Trojan soldier glancing left and right�how could he run from sudden, plunging death?
              Iliad, ll., Book 16 155-173, 323-333 tr. Fagles

              <!--StartFragment--> 4 And there came out from the camp of the Philistines a champion named Goliath, of Gath, whose height was six cubits and a span. 5 He had a helmet of bronze on his head, and he was armed with a coat of mail, and the weight of the coat was five thousand shekels of bronze. 6 And he had greaves of bronze upon his legs, and a javelin of bronze slung between his shoulders. 7 And the shaft of his spear was like a weaver�s beam, and his spear�s head weighed six hundred shekels of iron; and his shield-bearer went before him.
              The Revised Standard Version. 1971 (1 Sa 17:4-7). Regardless of your dating of Homer and the Iliad, it is clear that it was some considerable time prior to Herodotus who maintained that he lived 400 years prior to himself (c. 450 B.C). Even if one were able to establish


              george
              gfsomsel
              _________

              -- RUSSELLGMIRKIN@... wrote:

              Dear Aren Maeir,


              Regarding no. 2: As to the Philistines - speaking as someone who
              knows Philistine material culture, the hints (or direct references)
              to it in the biblical text can ONLY be appropriate in the Iron Age
              (the Philistines did not exist in the Persian period - or later).




              It seems to me (and others have noted this in print) that Goliath is
              unmistakably dressed in the armor of a Greek hoplite, complete with spear-carrier.

              Best regards,
              Russell Gmirkin



              [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
            • Clark Whelton
              ... unmistakably dressed in the armor of a Greek hoplite, complete with spear-carrier. Russell Gmirkin Isn t single combat itself an Aegean tradition? Are
              Message 6 of 15 , May 3, 2006
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                >>>>>It seems to me (and others have noted this in print) that Goliath is
                unmistakably dressed in the armor of a Greek hoplite, complete with spear-carrier.
                Russell Gmirkin


                Isn't single combat itself an Aegean tradition? Are there examples from the ANE?

                Clark Whelton
                New York

                [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
              • Marc Cooper
                Sinuhe v. the Retenu champion comes to mind. Also Gigamesh v. Agga, Marduk v. Tiamat, and there is a set of Old Akkadian cylinder seal engravings depicting
                Message 7 of 15 , May 3, 2006
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                  Sinuhe v. the Retenu champion comes to mind. Also Gigamesh v. Agga,
                  Marduk v. Tiamat, and there is a set of Old Akkadian cylinder seal
                  engravings depicting single combats. I suspect that the list could
                  come up with more.

                  Marc Cooper
                  Missouri State University

                  --- In ANE-2@yahoogroups.com, "Clark Whelton" <cwhelton@...> wrote:
                  >
                  > Isn't single combat itself an Aegean tradition? Are there examples
                  from the ANE?
                  >
                  > Clark Whelton
                  > New York
                • Yitzhak Sapir
                  Regarding the armor of Goliath, the following blogpost: http://www.heardworld.com/higgaion/2006/04/yadin-on-david-and-goliath-in-vt-54.html And the article it
                  Message 8 of 15 , May 3, 2006
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                    Regarding the armor of Goliath, the following blogpost:

                    http://www.heardworld.com/higgaion/2006/04/yadin-on-david-and-goliath-in-vt-54.html

                    And the article it reviews:

                    Azzan Yadin, "Goliath's Armor and Israelite Collective Memory," Vetus
                    Testamentum 54 (2004) 373-395.

                    may be of interest in the discussion.

                    Yitzhak Sapir
                    http://toldot.blogspot.com
                  • Mikey Brass
                    ... One significant (indeed I would argue the most significant) point which no one has adequately mentioned in this thread to date is: have any
                    Message 9 of 15 , May 3, 2006
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                      gfsomsel@... wrote:

                      > <!--StartFragment--> 4 And there came out from the camp of the Philistines

                      One significant (indeed I would argue the most significant) point which
                      no one has adequately mentioned in this thread to date is: have any
                      *archaeological* instances of Philistine armour been excavated (aside
                      from reliefs!) and, if so, how do they relate to texts such as these?

                      --
                      Best, Mikey Brass
                      MA in Archaeology degree, University College London
                      "The Antiquity of Man" http://www.antiquityofman.com
                      Book: "The Antiquity of Man: Artifactual, fossil and gene records explored"

                      - !ke e: /xarra //ke
                      ("Diverse people unite": Motto of the South African Coat of Arms, 2002)
                    • Mikey Brass
                      ... Interestingly, for me at least, the Ekron inscription was excavated three days after I arrived at the excavation in 1996, two squares away from me and the
                      Message 10 of 15 , May 3, 2006
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                        arenmaeir wrote:

                        > For cognate languages (Aramaic, Edomite, Philistine, etc.): The
                        > Ekron "Patgaya" inscription

                        Interestingly, for me at least, the Ekron inscription was excavated
                        three days after I arrived at the excavation in 1996, two squares away
                        from me and the day after my birthday (my birthday saw the discovery of
                        a small ivory statute in my square).

                        --
                        Best, Mikey Brass
                        MA in Archaeology degree, University College London
                        "The Antiquity of Man" http://www.antiquityofman.com
                        Book: "The Antiquity of Man: Artifactual, fossil and gene records explored"

                        - !ke e: /xarra //ke
                        ("Diverse people unite": Motto of the South African Coat of Arms, 2002)
                      • Jim West
                        Giovanni Garbini s excellent (and unfortunately overlooked) monograph, I Filstei , addresses the archaeological remnants of Philistine society in the third
                        Message 11 of 15 , May 3, 2006
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                          Giovanni Garbini's excellent (and unfortunately overlooked) monograph,
                          "I Filstei", addresses the archaeological remnants of Philistine society
                          in the third chapter and the fourth. I don't recall if it's been
                          translated. But everyone should read Italian- it's the new German for
                          scholars of ancient Israel. ;-)

                          Best

                          Jim


                          Mikey Brass wrote:
                          > gfsomsel@... wrote:
                          >
                          >
                          >><!--StartFragment--> 4 And there came out from the camp of the Philistines
                          >
                          >
                          > One significant (indeed I would argue the most significant) point which
                          > no one has adequately mentioned in this thread to date is: have any
                          > *archaeological* instances of Philistine armour been excavated (aside
                          > from reliefs!) and, if so, how do they relate to texts such as these?
                          >

                          --
                          Jim West, ThD

                          "Quos Deus vult perdere, prius dementat."

                          http://web.infoave.net/~jwest -- Biblical Studies Resources
                          http://petrosbaptistchurch.blogspot.com -- Weblog
                        • arenmaeir
                          ... Jim, I have read Garbini s book several years ago, and truthfully, have found some of it completely off the deep end ... In fact, I published a remark on
                          Message 12 of 15 , May 3, 2006
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                            --- In ANE-2@yahoogroups.com, Jim West <jwest@...> wrote:
                            Jim,
                            I have read Garbini's book several years ago, and truthfully, have
                            found some of it completely "off the deep end"... In fact, I
                            published a remark on part of the book in UF awhile back (on
                            Garbini's ludicrous claims of evidence for the Philistines in
                            Sardinia).
                            On a related issue, I agree that the weaponry that Goliath carries
                            is very varied and cannot point to a specific date, but, that is so
                            also for the late dating of the text. And by the way, there are some
                            very nice assemblages of weapons from the Keramekos cemetery in
                            Athens dating to the 10th-9th cent. with various elements quite
                            reminiscent of Goliath's panoply.

                            Aren Maeir

                            Jerusalem
                            >
                            > Giovanni Garbini's excellent (and unfortunately overlooked) monograph,
                            > "I Filstei", addresses the archaeological remnants of Philistine society
                            > in the third chapter and the fourth. I don't recall if it's been
                            > translated. But everyone should read Italian- it's the new German for
                            > scholars of ancient Israel. ;-)
                            >
                            > Best
                            >
                            > Jim
                            >
                            >
                            > Mikey Brass wrote:
                            > > gfsomsel@... wrote:
                            > >
                            > >
                            > >><!--StartFragment--> 4 And there came out from
                            the camp of the Philistines
                            > >
                            > >
                            > > One significant (indeed I would argue the most significant) point which
                            > > no one has adequately mentioned in this thread to date is: have any
                            > > *archaeological* instances of Philistine armour been excavated (aside
                            > > from reliefs!) and, if so, how do they relate to texts such as these?
                            > >
                            >
                            > --
                            > Jim West, ThD
                            >
                            > "Quos Deus vult perdere, prius dementat."
                            >
                            > http://web.infoave.net/~jwest -- Biblical Studies Resources
                            > http://petrosbaptistchurch.blogspot.com -- Weblog
                            >
                          • PETER DANIELS
                            Jim West wrote: Giovanni Garbini s excellent (and unfortunately overlooked) monograph, I Filstei , addresses the archaeological
                            Message 13 of 15 , May 3, 2006
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                              Jim West <jwest@...> wrote: Giovanni Garbini's excellent (and unfortunately overlooked) monograph, "I Filstei", addresses the archaeological remnants of Philistine society in the third chapter and the fourth. I don't recall if it's been translated. But everyone should read Italian- it's the new German for scholars of ancient Israel. ;-)

                              Garbini is often "overlooked" -- because so much of what he writes is just so wacky. Going all the way back to "amorreizzazione" in the 1950s.
                              --
                              Peter T. Daniels grammatim@...
                              from an undisclosed social location
                              but if you want my geographical location for some reason, it's Jersey City


                              [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                            • Jim West
                              ... I reject this mischarcterization. Unless you can cite chapter and verse with supporting contrary evidence which outweighs the claims you deny. Jim -- Jim
                              Message 14 of 15 , May 3, 2006
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                                PETER DANIELS wrote:

                                > Garbini is often "overlooked" -- because so much of what he writes is just so wacky.

                                I reject this mischarcterization. Unless you can cite chapter and verse
                                with supporting contrary evidence which outweighs the claims you deny.

                                Jim


                                --
                                Jim West, ThD

                                "Quos Deus vult perdere, prius dementat."

                                http://web.infoave.net/~jwest -- Biblical Studies Resources
                                http://petrosbaptistchurch.blogspot.com -- Weblog
                              • PETER DANIELS
                                Have you read the reviews of his books over the past fifty years? And noted the number of books of his that have never been reviewed, because they are simply
                                Message 15 of 15 , May 4, 2006
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                                  Have you read the reviews of his books over the past fifty years?

                                  And noted the number of books of his that have never been reviewed, because they are simply "wrong from betinning to end"?

                                  Do you have some sort of vested interest in defending him?

                                  Jim West <jwest@...> wrote:


                                  PETER DANIELS wrote:

                                  > Garbini is often "overlooked" -- because so much of what he writes is just so wacky.

                                  I reject this mischarcterization. Unless you can cite chapter and verse
                                  with supporting contrary evidence which outweighs the claims you deny.
                                  --
                                  Peter T. Daniels grammatim@...


                                  [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
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