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Re: [ANE-2] A new beginning

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  • Ariel L. Szczupak
    ... Ditto. [...] ... I would like to note, and on this I claim expertise, that in an animated, lively forum the moderator , be it one person or a panel, has
    Message 1 of 11 , Feb 15 3:59 PM
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      At 09:14 15/02/2006, Paul James Cowie wrote:
      >Kudos to Jeffrey Gibson for seizing the initiative in creating the
      >second incarnation of the
      >ANE List - "redivivus", even before its official demise!

      Ditto.

      [...]

      >... Jeffrey's demand that joint moderation now become the norm seems
      >eminently sensible. A list rises or falls according to the quality
      >of its moderation, that much seems clear from recent events.

      I would like to note, and on this I claim expertise, that in an
      animated, lively forum the "moderator", be it one person or a panel,
      has to speak, and rule, in one consistent voice ("has" as in
      otherwise the list goes bad). That applies to simple technical issues
      (limited/unlimited posts per day) but also to more complex issues -
      it's not a good idea to have the moderator's ego allowing historicity
      threads while his alter-ego forbids them.

      [...]

      >Might I suggest that some measure of sensible debate now ensue as to
      >changes (if any!) that list members might wish to see as regards the Protocol?

      Which is a good opportunity for me to point to some issues which I
      think the "moderator", in its generic sense, will have to think about
      and maybe formulate into specific guidelines in the list rules. And
      I'll use a specific example to illustrate these issues.

      Back in the old days, some two weeks ago :), I started jotting down
      notes to myself for posting a comment on some of NPL's points in "On
      the Problems of Reconstructing Pre-Hellenistic Israelite
      (Palestinian) History" which was mentioned on the list.

      http://www.arts.ualberta.ca/JHS/Articles/article_13.htm


      Now NPL is a moderator, so what happens now? Will the moderators
      participate actively in the list? What happens when a list member
      takes the initial step and criticizes a moderator's publication? The
      issue is of course the perceived fairness of the moderation process.
      Personally I'm happy with all the names mentioned so far and I don't
      think I would have no problem in accepting whatever they decide,
      including a gag order, but it's something that's bound to come up and
      I think the moderators should form some policy on dealing with such cases.

      Next is the topic. I was planning comments on methodological aspects
      of the argumentation in the paper, but the topic of the paper can't
      be nearer to the center of the historicity controversy. In the
      previous list my comments would have been a reaction to something
      already posted, but here I'd be starting the thread. So what's it to be?

      Which brings me to a more general issue, that of a kibitzing pisher
      like me commenting on the published work of a respected professional,
      or the issue of participating dilettantes. I do like to think that my
      comments are within the bounds of scientific discourse (except for
      some stupid jokes), but others may think otherwise. Personally I'd be
      willing to shut up if it'd help the "shy" experts become more active.
      [I do however reserve the right to post a rebuttal whenever someone
      will claim that fig trees bear fruit once a year, something which
      seems to happen every year or two]. For the moderators' consideration.

      And last, as I said my planned focus is the methodology, which brings
      me to the more general issue of the scope of the list, and if it'll
      be limited to ANE issues or will meta-issues be acceptable too. By
      meta-issues I mean discussions of tools and knowledge that are not
      directly connected to the ANE but which are commonly used in
      ANE-related argumentation. An example would be a discussion on the
      reliability and precision of archeometrical dating techniques, but
      another example, one about which there have complaints, would be
      issues in linguistics. Allowing discussions of meta-issues brings in
      practically all of the scientific disciplines. Personally I think
      meta-discussions were one of the attractions of the defunct list, but
      I know that others resented it.

      Excuse me for welcoming the moderators with such problems, but I
      think it's better they address them now, without pressure, than to
      have to decide when the problems occur and tempers are hot. Good luck
      in a tough job!

      [I'm far from ready with my comments on NPL's paper, as in weeks away
      from being ready, so there's no need for a quick decision about this
      specific example]


      And now I'm off to check if it started snowing already (or if it'll
      be another false alert). And since snow in Jerusalem isn't mentioned
      even once in the bible, that proves it isn't a historical document.
      [I did mention the stupid jokes, right?]


      Oh, and please leave the list configured to reply to the list, as
      "public reply to public message" makes more sense than "private reply
      to public message" ...



      Ariel.

      [100% bona fide dilettante ... delecto ergo sum!]

      ---
      Ariel L. Szczupak
      AMIS-JLM (Ricercar Ltd.)
      POB 4707, Jerusalem, Israel 91401
      Phone: +972-2-5619660 Fax: +972-2-5634203
      ane.als@... http://amis-jlm.co.il
    • Don Mills
      ... I was planning comments on methodological aspects of the argumentation in the paper, but the topic of the paper can t be nearer to the center of the
      Message 2 of 11 , Feb 16 12:41 AM
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        Ariel L. Szczupak wrote:

        -----<snip>-----
        I was planning comments on methodological aspects
        of the argumentation in the paper, but the topic of the paper can't
        be nearer to the center of the historicity controversy. In the
        previous list my comments would have been a reaction to something
        already posted, but here I'd be starting the thread. So what's it to be?
        -----<snip to end>-----

        Someone's got to start a discourse at some time, Ariel ...

        -- Don Mills [London, England]

        [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
      • drbrucekgardner@aol.com
        Hi ANE2 Listers, What do listers make of the story of Enoch who walked with God in Genesis 5, in an ANE context? Do listers know of any references or ANE
        Message 3 of 11 , Feb 16 12:57 AM
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          Hi ANE2 Listers,

          What do listers make of the story of 'Enoch who walked with God' in Genesis
          5, in an ANE context? Do listers know of any references or ANE parallels on
          this that I could follow up?

          Thanks,

          Bruce Gardner
          Aberdeen Scotland UK.


          [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
        • victor avigdor hurowitz
          Woe Ariel, Ariel! That biblical allusion now out of my system (Is 29:1), and in all due respect, I think that starting ANE-2 with a discussion of the
          Message 4 of 11 , Feb 16 1:02 AM
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            Woe Ariel, Ariel!
            That biblical allusion now out of my system (Is 29:1), and
            in all due respect, I think that starting ANE-2 with a discussion of the
            "Historicity controversy" would be a very bad choice. Why don't we give
            the Bible a rest? We should start off
            by distancing ourselves from the problems which plagued the previous
            list. How about something like "monotheistic tendencies in Ancient Near
            Eastern religions outside of Israel"; Or "Aramization in the Ancient Near
            East"; or "imperialism and religion"; or "languages of communication" in
            the ancient near east, or "historicity of royal inscriptions" (if you
            insist on historicity); or tools for ancient near eastern studies in a
            cyberage, or the reading of such and such a cuneiform sign. I won't start
            off any of these discussions,
            but will certainly follow them with greater interest than I would another
            round in the biblical historicity controversary.
            Victor

            Prof. Victor Avigdor Hurowitz
            Dept. of Bible, Archaeology and Ancient Near Eastern Studies
            Ben-Gurion University of the Negev
            Beer-Sheva, Israel




            On Thu, 16 Feb 2006, Don Mills wrote:

            > Ariel L. Szczupak wrote:
            >
            > -----<snip>-----
            > I was planning comments on methodological aspects
            > of the argumentation in the paper, but the topic of the paper can't
            > be nearer to the center of the historicity controversy. In the
            > previous list my comments would have been a reaction to something
            > already posted, but here I'd be starting the thread. So what's it to be?
            > -----<snip to end>-----
            >
            > Someone's got to start a discourse at some time, Ariel ...
            >
            > -- Don Mills [London, England]
            >
            > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
            >
            >
            >
            >
            >
            >
            >
            > Yahoo! Groups Links
            >
            >
            >
            >
            >
            >
            >
            >
          • Victor Hurowitz
            Have a look at Author: Kvanvig,
            Message 5 of 11 , Feb 16 1:28 AM
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              Have a look at




              Author:

              Kvanvig,
              <javascript:open_window(%22http://dahab.bgu.ac.il:80/F/6IKSRLUS2LRCC11B94VVY
              85N53MAGHKHSVA9HMHBS2MBMNNSAN-03129?func=service&doc_number=001222661&line_n
              umber=0006&service_type=TAG%22);> Helge S., 1948-


              Title:

              Roots
              <javascript:open_window(%22http://dahab.bgu.ac.il:80/F/6IKSRLUS2LRCC11B94VVY
              85N53MAGHKHSVA9HMHBS2MBMNNSAN-03130?func=service&doc_number=001222661&line_n
              umber=0007&service_type=TAG%22);> of apocalyptic :
              the Mesopotamian background of the Enoch figure and of the Son of Man /
              Helge S. Kvanvig


              Published:

              Neukirchen-Vluyn
              <javascript:open_window(%22http://dahab.bgu.ac.il:80/F/6IKSRLUS2LRCC11B94VVY
              85N53MAGHKHSVA9HMHBS2MBMNNSAN-03131?func=service&doc_number=001222661&line_n
              umber=0008&service_type=TAG%22);> : Neukirchener Verlag, 1988








              Victor



              -----Original Message-----
              From: ANE-2@yahoogroups.com [mailto:ANE-2@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of
              drbrucekgardner@...
              Sent: Thursday, February 16, 2006 10:57 AM
              To: ANE-2@yahoogroups.com
              Subject: Re: [ANE-2] A new beginning



              Hi ANE2 Listers,



              What do listers make of the story of 'Enoch who walked with God' in Genesis


              5, in an ANE context? Do listers know of any references or ANE parallels on


              this that I could follow up?



              Thanks,



              Bruce Gardner

              Aberdeen Scotland UK.





              [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]













              Yahoo! Groups Links



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              [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
            • Patrick Ryan
              Ariel, I would be interested in asking a question in the context of monotheism. Are there any indications that Haldi (Hurrian god) was the focus of a
              Message 6 of 11 , Feb 16 1:28 AM
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                Ariel,

                I would be interested in asking a question in the context of monotheism.

                Are there any indications that Haldi (Hurrian god) was the focus of a monotheistic system or one moving towards monotheism?

                Patrick
                ----- Original Message -----
                From: victor avigdor hurowitz<mailto:victor@...>
                To: ANE-2@yahoogroups.com<mailto:ANE-2@yahoogroups.com>
                Sent: Thursday, February 16, 2006 3:02 AM
                Subject: Re: [ANE-2] A new(?) beginning


                Woe Ariel, Ariel!
                That biblical allusion now out of my system (Is 29:1), and
                in all due respect, I think that starting ANE-2 with a discussion of the
                "Historicity controversy" would be a very bad choice. Why don't we give
                the Bible a rest? We should start off
                by distancing ourselves from the problems which plagued the previous
                list. How about something like "monotheistic tendencies in Ancient Near
                Eastern religions outside of Israel"; Or "Aramization in the Ancient Near
                East"; or "imperialism and religion"; or "languages of communication" in
                the ancient near east, or "historicity of royal inscriptions" (if you
                insist on historicity); or tools for ancient near eastern studies in a
                cyberage, or the reading of such and such a cuneiform sign. I won't start
                off any of these discussions,
                but will certainly follow them with greater interest than I would another
                round in the biblical historicity controversary.
                Victor

                Prof. Victor Avigdor Hurowitz
                Dept. of Bible, Archaeology and Ancient Near Eastern Studies
                Ben-Gurion University of the Negev
                Beer-Sheva, Israel




                On Thu, 16 Feb 2006, Don Mills wrote:

                > Ariel L. Szczupak wrote:
                >
                > -----<snip>-----
                > I was planning comments on methodological aspects
                > of the argumentation in the paper, but the topic of the paper can't
                > be nearer to the center of the historicity controversy. In the
                > previous list my comments would have been a reaction to something
                > already posted, but here I'd be starting the thread. So what's it to be?
                > -----<snip to end>-----
                >
                > Someone's got to start a discourse at some time, Ariel ...
                >
                > -- Don Mills [London, England]
                >
                > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                >
                >
                >
                >
                >
                >
                >
                > Yahoo! Groups Links
                >
                >
                >
                >
                >
                >
                >
                >






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              • victor avigdor hurowitz
                I m not a Hurrologist and don t worship their gods, but isn t Haldi an Urartian god, the one mentioned in Sargon s 8th campaign? Victor
                Message 7 of 11 , Feb 16 1:45 AM
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                  I'm not a Hurrologist and don't worship their gods, but isn't Haldi an
                  Urartian god, the one mentioned in Sargon's 8th campaign?
                  Victor



                  On Thu, 16 Feb 2006, Patrick Ryan wrote:

                  > Ariel,
                  >
                  > I would be interested in asking a question in the context of monotheism.
                  >
                  > Are there any indications that Haldi (Hurrian god) was the focus of a monotheistic system or one moving towards monotheism?
                  >
                  > Patrick
                  > ----- Original Message -----
                  > From: victor avigdor hurowitz<mailto:victor@...>
                  > To: ANE-2@yahoogroups.com<mailto:ANE-2@yahoogroups.com>
                  > Sent: Thursday, February 16, 2006 3:02 AM
                  > Subject: Re: [ANE-2] A new(?) beginning
                  >
                  >
                  > Woe Ariel, Ariel!
                  > That biblical allusion now out of my system (Is 29:1), and
                  > in all due respect, I think that starting ANE-2 with a discussion of the
                  > "Historicity controversy" would be a very bad choice. Why don't we give
                  > the Bible a rest? We should start off
                  > by distancing ourselves from the problems which plagued the previous
                  > list. How about something like "monotheistic tendencies in Ancient Near
                  > Eastern religions outside of Israel"; Or "Aramization in the Ancient Near
                  > East"; or "imperialism and religion"; or "languages of communication" in
                  > the ancient near east, or "historicity of royal inscriptions" (if you
                  > insist on historicity); or tools for ancient near eastern studies in a
                  > cyberage, or the reading of such and such a cuneiform sign. I won't start
                  > off any of these discussions,
                  > but will certainly follow them with greater interest than I would another
                  > round in the biblical historicity controversary.
                  > Victor
                  >
                  > Prof. Victor Avigdor Hurowitz
                  > Dept. of Bible, Archaeology and Ancient Near Eastern Studies
                  > Ben-Gurion University of the Negev
                  > Beer-Sheva, Israel
                  >
                  >
                  >
                  >
                  > On Thu, 16 Feb 2006, Don Mills wrote:
                  >
                  > > Ariel L. Szczupak wrote:
                  > >
                  > > -----<snip>-----
                  > > I was planning comments on methodological aspects
                  > > of the argumentation in the paper, but the topic of the paper can't
                  > > be nearer to the center of the historicity controversy. In the
                  > > previous list my comments would have been a reaction to something
                  > > already posted, but here I'd be starting the thread. So what's it to be?
                  > > -----<snip to end>-----
                  > >
                  > > Someone's got to start a discourse at some time, Ariel ...
                  > >
                  > > -- Don Mills [London, England]
                  > >
                  > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                  > >
                  > >
                  > >
                  > >
                  > >
                  > >
                  > >
                  > > Yahoo! Groups Links
                  > >
                  > >
                  > >
                  > >
                  > >
                  > >
                  > >
                  > >
                  >
                  >
                  >
                  >
                  >
                  >
                  > SPONSORED LINKS Near<http://groups.yahoo.com/gads?t=ms&k=Near&w1=Near&w2=Ancient&w3=University+of+chicago&c=3&s=50&.sig=aVz6i_8jEdKbBX8H7JNf2A> Ancient<http://groups.yahoo.com/gads?t=ms&k=Ancient&w1=Near&w2=Ancient&w3=University+of+chicago&c=3&s=50&.sig=i__45E9H9auv49UTibKO4g> University of chicago<http://groups.yahoo.com/gads?t=ms&k=University+of+chicago&w1=Near&w2=Ancient&w3=University+of+chicago&c=3&s=50&.sig=YnBSDXrWnRu6PQo-N0zxtg>
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                • Trudy Kawami
                  Bruce, I cannot give you a literary reference but there is a big visual one in the Hittite reliefs of Chamber B at Yazilikaya in central Anatolia where the
                  Message 8 of 11 , Feb 16 8:55 AM
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                    Bruce,

                    I cannot give you a literary reference but there is a big visual one in
                    the Hittite reliefs of Chamber B at Yazilikaya in central Anatolia where
                    the Hittite king Tudhaliyas IV is shown walking by the side of his
                    patron god Sharumma whose arm protectively encircles the king's
                    shoulders.

                    Trudy Kawami



                    ________________________________

                    From: ANE-2@yahoogroups.com [mailto:ANE-2@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of
                    drbrucekgardner@...
                    Sent: Thursday, February 16, 2006 3:57 AM
                    To: ANE-2@yahoogroups.com
                    Subject: Re: [ANE-2] A new beginning



                    Hi ANE2 Listers,

                    What do listers make of the story of 'Enoch who walked with God' in
                    Genesis
                    5, in an ANE context? Do listers know of any references or ANE parallels
                    on
                    this that I could follow up?

                    Thanks,

                    Bruce Gardner
                    Aberdeen Scotland UK.


                    [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]






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                  • drbrucekgardner@aol.com
                    In a message dated 16/02/2006 16:57:36 GMT Standard Time, tkawami@arthurmsacklerfdn.org writes: Bruce, I cannot give you a literary reference but there is a
                    Message 9 of 11 , Feb 16 10:51 AM
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                      In a message dated 16/02/2006 16:57:36 GMT Standard Time,
                      tkawami@... writes:

                      Bruce,

                      I cannot give you a literary reference but there is a big visual one in
                      the Hittite reliefs of Chamber B at Yazilikaya in central Anatolia where
                      the Hittite king Tudhaliyas IV is shown walking by the side of his
                      patron god Sharumma whose arm protectively encircles the king's
                      shoulders.

                      Trudy Kawami


                      Dear Trudy,

                      Thanks very much - I will certainly follow this one up.

                      :-)

                      Bruce Gardner
                      Aberdeen Scotland UK


                      [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                    • Ariel L. Szczupak
                      ... Not only I don t insist on it, I m not really interested in biblical historicity per se (as the ANE1 archive can show while it s still there). My interest
                      Message 10 of 11 , Feb 16 1:15 PM
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                        At 11:02 16/02/2006, victor avigdor hurowitz wrote:
                        >Woe Ariel, Ariel!

                        ... the city where snow once settled ... :(

                        >... if you insist on historicity ...

                        Not only I don't insist on it, I'm not really interested in biblical
                        historicity per se (as the ANE1 archive can show while it's still
                        there). My interest is in the methodology for establishing, or not,
                        the historicity of textual evidence in general. Biblical historicity
                        is just one case, but it is an "active" battlefield, one in which
                        accepted methodologies are determined by the scientific community,
                        and, continuing the analogy, NPL is one of the warlords ...

                        It was one of the first messages in the list and you quoted only DM's
                        snipped version, so maybe you didn't see the full message. I used
                        this example because it was handy, as something I was working on, for
                        illustrating four issues, not just the historicity issue, that I
                        think the moderators should consider. And possibly make guidelines
                        and policies to address them. Four issues that are at this euphoric
                        point theoretical, but judging from ANE1's history will become real
                        soon enough. A kind of "better brush your teeth now than have a root
                        canal job in the future" comment :)

                        So don't cry for me ANE2 arena, I have no intention of initiating a
                        biblical historicity thread.


                        Ariel.

                        [100% bona fide dilettante ... delecto ergo sum!]

                        ---
                        Ariel L. Szczupak
                        AMIS-JLM (Ricercar Ltd.)
                        POB 4707, Jerusalem, Israel 91401
                        Phone: +972-2-5619660 Fax: +972-2-5634203
                        ane.als@... http://amis-jlm.co.il
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