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ancient religiosity

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  • Charles E. Jones
    A student (undergraduate) asks me to suggest ancient texts touching on the theme of how religiosity can affect human thought/perception. Any suggestions?
    Message 1 of 20 , Sep 23, 2011
      A student (undergraduate) asks me to suggest ancient texts touching on the theme of how religiosity can affect human thought/perception.

      Any suggestions?

      -Chuck Jones-
      ISAW - NYU
    • Stephen Goranson
      Perhaps some texts mentioned in: The Greeks and the irrational Dodds, E. R. (Eric Robertson), 1893-1979. Year: 1951. Publisher: University of California
      Message 2 of 20 , Sep 23, 2011
        Perhaps some texts mentioned in:
        The Greeks and the irrational
        Dodds, E. R. (Eric Robertson), 1893-1979.
        Year: 1951.
        Publisher: University of California Press.

        Stephen Goranson
        http://www.duke.edu/~goranson
        ________________________________
        From: ANE-2@yahoogroups.com [ANE-2@yahoogroups.com] on behalf of Charles E. Jones [cejo@...]
        Sent: Friday, September 23, 2011 9:18 AM
        To: ANE-2
        Subject: [ANE-2] ancient religiosity



        A student (undergraduate) asks me to suggest ancient texts touching on the theme of how religiosity can affect human thought/perception.

        Any suggestions?

        -Chuck Jones-
        ISAW - NYU




        [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
      • Thomas Verenna
        My first thoughts form around Lucretius *De Rerum Natura*. Though Lucian has some choice satire on the religious mindset in his *Passing of Perengrinus*, and
        Message 3 of 20 , Sep 23, 2011
          My first thoughts form around Lucretius' *De Rerum Natura*. Though Lucian
          has some choice satire on the religious mindset in his *Passing of
          Perengrinus*, and of course Plato's Cave and the shadows is loosely tied to
          religious mindsets.

          Various authors in antiquity mention in passing certain religious mindsets
          (especially early church fathers like Justin Martyr talking about paganism)
          but all of these vary and nothing substantial like Lucretius or Lucian (also
          check his *Philopseudes*).

          Cordially,

          Thomas S. Verenna
          Philadelphia, PA

          On Fri, Sep 23, 2011 at 9:18 AM, Charles E. Jones <cejo@...> wrote:

          > **
          >
          >
          > A student (undergraduate) asks me to suggest ancient texts touching on the
          > theme of how religiosity can affect human thought/perception.
          >
          > Any suggestions?
          >
          > -Chuck Jones-
          > ISAW - NYU
          >
          >



          --
          Cordially,

          Thomas S. Verenna


          [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
        • xkv8r
          Chuck, I m actually working through Michael Shermer s The Believing Brain, which attempts a physiological and evolutionary explanation for why we humans
          Message 4 of 20 , Sep 23, 2011
            Chuck,

            I'm actually working through Michael Shermer's 'The Believing Brain,' which attempts a physiological and evolutionary explanation for why we humans 'believe,' things, and how those beliefs come to shape our thoughts and perceptions of the world. There's a TED video summary of his book here: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=b_6-iVz1R0o

            Cheers,

            Robert Cargill
            Departments of Classics and Religious Studies
            The University of Iowa


            --- In ANE-2@yahoogroups.com, "Charles E. Jones" <cejo@...> wrote:
            >
            > A student (undergraduate) asks me to suggest ancient texts touching on the theme of how religiosity can affect human thought/perception.
            >
            > Any suggestions?
            >
            > -Chuck Jones-
            > ISAW - NYU
            >
          • David Hall
            The Sumerians, by Samuel N. Kramer, U. of Chicago Press, 1963, is yet in print (amazon.com) after almost half a century.  There is a chapter about,
            Message 5 of 20 , Sep 23, 2011
              The Sumerians, by Samuel N. Kramer, U. of Chicago Press, 1963, is yet in print (amazon.com) after almost half a century.  There is a chapter about, "Religion, Theology, Rite, and Myth."  On page 175 a deity named Enki was described as the Lord directing the work of the craftsmen.  Sumerian stories and prayers may reveal the thoughts of the ancients about this subject after translation by Kramer.
               
              David Q. Hall
              Falls Church, Virginia

              From: Charles E. Jones <cejo@...>
              To: ANE-2 <ANE-2@yahoogroups.com>
              Sent: Friday, September 23, 2011 9:18 AM
              Subject: [ANE-2] ancient religiosity


               
              A student (undergraduate) asks me to suggest ancient texts touching on the theme of how religiosity can affect human thought/perception.

              Any suggestions?

              -Chuck Jones-
              ISAW - NYU



              [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
            • Thomas Verenna
              Perhaps I misunderstood; I was under the impression that the student was looking for ancient sources discussing the mentality of the religious mindset? If the
              Message 6 of 20 , Sep 23, 2011
                Perhaps I misunderstood; I was under the impression that the student was
                looking for ancient sources discussing the mentality of the religious
                mindset? If the student is looking for modern psychological and
                neurological reasons why people are religious, I have other resources which
                I could provide.

                Thomas Verenna
                Philadelphia, PA

                On Fri, Sep 23, 2011 at 11:16 AM, xkv8r <bob@...> wrote:

                > **
                >
                >
                > Chuck,
                >
                > I'm actually working through Michael Shermer's 'The Believing Brain,' which
                > attempts a physiological and evolutionary explanation for why we humans
                > 'believe,' things, and how those beliefs come to shape our thoughts and
                > perceptions of the world. There's a TED video summary of his book here:
                > http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=b_6-iVz1R0o
                >
                > Cheers,
                >
                > Robert Cargill
                > Departments of Classics and Religious Studies
                > The University of Iowa
                >
                >
                > --- In ANE-2@yahoogroups.com, "Charles E. Jones" <cejo@...> wrote:
                > >
                > > A student (undergraduate) asks me to suggest ancient texts touching on
                > the theme of how religiosity can affect human thought/perception.
                > >
                > > Any suggestions?
                > >
                > > -Chuck Jones-
                > > ISAW - NYU
                > >
                >
                >
                >


                [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
              • richfaussette
                ... Hi Chuck, May I suggest these passages from these texts: When Adam and Eve ate the fruit from the Tree of the Knowledge of Good and Evil the eyes of both
                Message 7 of 20 , Sep 23, 2011
                  --- In ANE-2@yahoogroups.com, "Charles E. Jones" <cejo@...> wrote:
                  >
                  > A student (undergraduate) asks me to suggest ancient texts touching on the theme of how religiosity can affect human thought/perception.
                  >
                  > Any suggestions?
                  >
                  > -Chuck Jones-
                  > ISAW - NYU
                  >

                  Hi Chuck,

                  May I suggest these passages from these texts:

                  When Adam and Eve ate the fruit from the Tree of the Knowledge of Good and Evil the "eyes of both of them were opened and they discovered that they were naked; so they stitched fig-leaves together and made loincloths… and hid from the Lord God."
                  Genesis 3:6-7

                  Encourage them to define the variables and their values and associate them in a formula.

                  + Self (open their eyes) = + shame (cover their nakedness) + fear (hide from God)

                  The formula for the fall is (+ self = + shame + fear)

                  Then take them to a gnostic text:

                  His disciples said, "When will you become revealed to us and when shall we see you?"

                  Jesus said, "When you disrobe without being ashamed and take up your garments and place them under your feet like little children and tread on them, then [will you see] the son of the living one, and you will not be afraid."
                  Gospel of Thomas 37

                  And again encourage them to define the variables and their values and associate them in a formula.

                  – Self (see the son) = – shame (without being ashamed) – fear (you will not be afraid).

                  The formula for the return is (– self = – shame – fear)

                  They'll have a ball with the formula.

                  And then for material to explicate the ontology of self sacrifice:
                  Tillich's The Courage to Be
                  "Courage is the self affirmation of being in spite of the fact of non-being."

                  The Simone Weil Reader - Weil on perfection and affliction (loving God while forsaken by God).

                  They should also have a basic understanding of the evolution of the human brain, the subsequent advent of self consciousness and man's associated abandonment of instinctive behavior, then they'll realize the return from the fall, writing the law on your heart, is making learned behavior instinctive or intuitive (speaking ontologically of course).

                  You can go East
                  DT Suzuki on Zen:

                  "The Kamakura era is closely related to Zen, for it was then that as an independent school of Buddhism, Zen was first introduced to Japan. Many great masters of Zen ruled the spiritual world of the time, and in spite of their contempt of learning, learning was preserved in their hands. At the same time the soldiers thronged about them, eager to be taught and disciplined by them. The method of their teaching was simple and direct; not much learning in the abstruse philosophy of Zen was needed. The soldiers were naturally not very scholarly; **what they wanted was to be not timid before death, which they had constantly to face."**

                  The soldiers wanted -fear. Use the formula.


                  Use different media: have them consider the Buddhist woodcuts of the yoking of the ox and the Christian stations of the cross.

                  There are many disciplines for abandoning the self depending on the religion/culture. I suspect the self sacrifice as a discipline is a universal since we're all self conscious (except for those of us who do God's will and live in God's presence).

                  They can explore the many disciplines once they've understood what they're after.

                  Regards,
                  Richard Faussette
                  NYC
                • robtyenow
                  Hello Thomas My thoughts seem to parallel your own, amongst the Greeks I would look to Democritus and his followers, like Lucretius. I append the message I
                  Message 8 of 20 , Sep 24, 2011
                    Hello Thomas

                    My thoughts seem to parallel your own, amongst the Greeks I would look to Democritus and his followers, like Lucretius. I append the message I wrote last night, before I got called away:

                    ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

                    I am certainly no fan of Wittgenstein, but it does seem to me in this case, that in order to comment somewhat objectively on religious thought, we have to "stand outside" religious thought, and thus seek answers of a somewhat atheistic nature.

                    From the ANE all that springs immediately to mind are the comments about the actions of Cambyses and Darius in Herodotus III 38.

                    There are some interesting comments from India, in the Arthasastra, 5.2.37 to 5.2.45 (under "Replenishing of the Treasury")

                    The extract should come up top of the list if you google (including the quote marks):

                    "or, after raising at night a god's"

                    Rob Tye, York, UK


                    --- In ANE-2@yahoogroups.com, Thomas Verenna <tsverenna@...> wrote:
                    >
                    > Perhaps I misunderstood; I was under the impression that the student was looking for ancient sources discussing the mentality of the religious mindset? If the student is looking for modern psychological and neurological reasons why people are religious, I have other resources which I could provide.
                    >
                    > Thomas Verenna
                    > Philadelphia, PA
                  • MarcC
                    You might look at Lucian, The Passing of Peregrinus, which is a satire based on the story of a fellow who calls himself Proteus and uses the religiosity of
                    Message 9 of 20 , Sep 24, 2011
                      You might look at Lucian, The Passing of Peregrinus, which is a satire based on the story of a fellow who calls himself Proteus and uses the religiosity of Christians to trick them into giving him various positions. I think that there is more of this sort of thing in the literature, for instance, concerning Appolonius of Tyanna.

                      Marc Cooper
                      Missouri State

                      --- In ANE-2@yahoogroups.com, Thomas Verenna <tsverenna@...> wrote:
                      >
                      > My first thoughts form around Lucretius' *De Rerum Natura*. Though Lucian
                      > has some choice satire on the religious mindset in his *Passing of
                      > Perengrinus*, and of course Plato's Cave and the shadows is loosely tied to
                      > religious mindsets.
                      >
                      > Various authors in antiquity mention in passing certain religious mindsets
                      > (especially early church fathers like Justin Martyr talking about paganism)
                      > but all of these vary and nothing substantial like Lucretius or Lucian (also
                      > check his *Philopseudes*).
                      >
                      > Cordially,
                      >
                      > Thomas S. Verenna
                      > Philadelphia, PA
                      >
                      > On Fri, Sep 23, 2011 at 9:18 AM, Charles E. Jones <cejo@...> wrote:
                      >
                      > > **
                      > >
                      > >
                      > > A student (undergraduate) asks me to suggest ancient texts touching on the
                      > > theme of how religiosity can affect human thought/perception.
                      > >
                      > > Any suggestions?
                      > >
                      > > -Chuck Jones-
                      > > ISAW - NYU
                      > >
                      > >
                      >
                      >
                      >
                      > --
                      > Cordially,
                      >
                      > Thomas S. Verenna
                      >
                      >
                      > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                      >
                    • Jeffrey B Gibson
                      I should have thought that one of the best places to go to was the Wisdom literature in the Hebrew Bible since, as I understand it, this literature is
                      Message 10 of 20 , Sep 24, 2011
                        I should have thought that one of the best places to go to was the
                        Wisdom literature in the Hebrew Bible since, as I understand it, this
                        literature is consciously crafted (even negatively in Job and
                        Ecclesiastes) in the light of the belief that there is a creator God who
                        has structured and the universe in such a way that the faithful prosper
                        and the wicked suffer.


                        Jeffrey

                        --
                        ---
                        Jeffrey B. Gibson D.Phil. Oxon.
                        1500 W. Pratt Blvd
                        Chicago, Il.
                        jgibson000@...
                      • Douglas Petrovich
                        Jeffrey, “. . . the Hebrew Bible since, as I understand it, this literature is consciously crafted . . . in the light of the belief that there is a creator
                        Message 11 of 20 , Sep 24, 2011
                          Jeffrey,

                          “. . . the Hebrew Bible since, as I understand it, this literature is consciously crafted . . . in the light of the belief that there is a creator God who has structured and the universe in such a way that the faithful prosper and the wicked suffer.”

                          This certainly is not always the pattern portrayed in the Hebrew Bible. There are many passages that portray just the opposite: the righteous suffering and the wicked prospering. For example, in Psalm 94:3 (Eng.), the psalmist asks, “How long, O Yahweh, will the wicked rejoice/exult?” There are plenty of other examples, but I will not attempt to compile them here.

                          Conversely, I think it would be fair to characterize the Hebrew Bible as stating that ultimately, i.e. in the life to come, the wicked will suffer as a result of their unrepentant wickedness, while the righteous/faithful eventually will prosper (though not necessarily in the present world). This reflects the Bible’s portrayal of the structure to the created order that you described.

                          Douglas Petrovich
                          Toronto, Canada


                          [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                        • Jeffrey B Gibson
                          ... My focus is on the Wisdom literature. As I understand things, Psalms is not part of this corpus, and therefore finding counter examples to the theology
                          Message 12 of 20 , Sep 24, 2011
                            On 9/24/2011 10:48 AM, Douglas Petrovich wrote:
                            > Jeffrey,
                            >
                            > “. . . the Hebrew Bible since, as I understand it, this literature is consciously crafted . . . in the light of the belief that there is a creator God who has structured and the universe in such a way that the faithful prosper and the wicked suffer.”
                            >
                            > This certainly is not always the pattern portrayed in the Hebrew Bible. There are many passages that portray just the opposite: the righteous suffering and the wicked prospering. For example, in Psalm 94:3 (Eng.), the psalmist asks, “How long, O Yahweh, will the wicked rejoice/exult?” There are plenty of other examples, but I will not attempt to compile them here.
                            My focus is on the Wisdom literature. As I understand things, Psalms
                            is not part of this corpus, and therefore finding counter examples to
                            the theology I noted from Psalms does nothing to undermine my claim.

                            >
                            > Conversely, I think it would be fair to characterize the Hebrew Bible as stating that ultimately, i.e. in the life to come, the wicked will suffer as a result of their unrepentant wickedness, while the righteous/faithful eventually will prosper (though not necessarily in the present world). This reflects the Bible’s portrayal of the structure to the created order that you described.

                            I'd be grateful if you could provide some examples from the Wisdom
                            Literature specifically which speak of a "world to come", especially
                            one that is something like "heaven" rather than a "this world" transformed.

                            Jeffrey

                            --
                            ---
                            Jeffrey B. Gibson D.Phil. Oxon.
                            1500 W. Pratt Blvd
                            Chicago, Il.
                            jgibson000@...
                          • Douglas Petrovich
                            Jeffrey, “I d be grateful if you could provide some examples from the Wisdom Literature specifically which speak of a ‘world to come’, especially one
                            Message 13 of 20 , Sep 24, 2011
                              Jeffrey,

                              “I'd be grateful if you could provide some examples from the Wisdom Literature specifically which speak of a ‘world to come’, especially one that is something like ‘heaven’ rather than a ‘this world’ transformed.”

                              Certainly we have examples of the view toward a futuristic judgment and punishment of the wicked, such as this one from Psalm 11:4-7: “Yahweh is in his holy temple; Yahweh’s throne is in heaven. His eyes see; his eyelids test the sons of men. Yahweh tests the righteous and the wicked, and the one who loves violence hates his [own] soul. He will rain down upon the wicked a plate of fire and brimstone, and burning wind will be the portion of their cup. For Yahweh is righteous; he loves righteousness. The upright will look upon his face.”

                              The question I have, of course, is whether you’re looking for specific uses of buzzwords/phrases such as “world to come” or “this world”. The passage I have cited features “heaven”, but not the others. We should note, however, the furturistic hiphil verb “he will rain down”, which certainly points to a time beyond the present world. This is reinforced by the reference to the upright eventually being able to look upon Yahweh’s face, which also points to a time beyond this world.

                              Personally, I do not think we would find a slew of such buzzwords/phrases in the wisdom literature. However, I’m not so sure that such a dearth should be taken to imply that the wisdom literature as a whole does not feature a distinction between the present world and the one to come, as outlined more clearly in other parts of the Hebrew Bible. The absence of buzzwords would be a slippery slope for making such a logical leap, especially given that its literary type is, by definition, non-didactic.

                              Douglas Petrovich
                              Toronto, Canada

                              [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                            • RUSSELLGMIRKIN@aol.com
                              Your student might want to read some philosophical works by Cicero: De Fato (On Fate), De Divinatione (On Divination), De Natura Deorum (On the Nature of the
                              Message 14 of 20 , Sep 24, 2011
                                Your student might want to read some philosophical works by Cicero: De
                                Fato (On Fate), De Divinatione (On Divination), De Natura Deorum (On the
                                Nature of the Gods).

                                Also, for influence of religion (which included oracles, superstition and
                                omens) on Greek political life, see e.g. C. A. Powell, "Religion and the
                                Sicilian Expedition," Historia: Zeitschrift fur Alte Geschichte 28 (1979):
                                15-31 (available on JSTOR), as well as his 1974 dissertation (which I have
                                not read), The Role of Religion in Athenian Foreign Policy. And has the
                                classic 1951 work by E.R. Dodds, The Greeks and the Irrational, already been
                                mentioned?

                                Best regards,
                                Russell Gmirkin
                                Portland, Oregon




                                A student (undergraduate) asks me to suggest ancient texts touching on the
                                theme of how religiosity can affect human thought/perception.

                                Any suggestions?

                                -Chuck Jones-
                                ISAW - NYU







                                [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                              • Thomas Verenna
                                Excellent suggestions. Also by ER Dodds: *Pagan and Christian in an Age of Anxiety: Some Aspects of Religious Experience from Marcus Aurelius to Constantine*
                                Message 15 of 20 , Sep 24, 2011
                                  Excellent suggestions. Also by ER Dodds: *Pagan and Christian in an Age of
                                  Anxiety: Some Aspects of Religious Experience from Marcus Aurelius to
                                  Constantine*

                                  Tom Verenna
                                  Philadelphia, PA

                                  On Sat, Sep 24, 2011 at 3:56 PM, <RUSSELLGMIRKIN@...> wrote:

                                  > **
                                  >
                                  >
                                  >
                                  >
                                  > Your student might want to read some philosophical works by Cicero: De
                                  > Fato (On Fate), De Divinatione (On Divination), De Natura Deorum (On the
                                  > Nature of the Gods).
                                  >
                                  > Also, for influence of religion (which included oracles, superstition and
                                  > omens) on Greek political life, see e.g. C. A. Powell, "Religion and the
                                  > Sicilian Expedition," Historia: Zeitschrift fur Alte Geschichte 28 (1979):
                                  > 15-31 (available on JSTOR), as well as his 1974 dissertation (which I have
                                  > not read), The Role of Religion in Athenian Foreign Policy. And has the
                                  > classic 1951 work by E.R. Dodds, The Greeks and the Irrational, already
                                  > been
                                  > mentioned?
                                  >
                                  > Best regards,
                                  > Russell Gmirkin
                                  > Portland, Oregon
                                  >
                                  >
                                  >
                                  > A student (undergraduate) asks me to suggest ancient texts touching on the
                                  > theme of how religiosity can affect human thought/perception.
                                  >
                                  > Any suggestions?
                                  >
                                  > -Chuck Jones-
                                  > ISAW - NYU
                                  >
                                  > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                                  >
                                  >
                                  >



                                  --
                                  Cordially,

                                  Thomas S. Verenna


                                  [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                                • Niels Peter Lemche
                                  Without turning this list into one of biblical theology, it is normally accepted that there are no expectations for an afterlife in the OT. The only problem is
                                  Message 16 of 20 , Sep 24, 2011
                                    Without turning this list into one of biblical theology, it is normally accepted that there are no expectations for an afterlife in the OT. The only problem is Hezekiel 37. I do not think that Ps 11,4-7 can be taking to mean anything about afterlife.

                                    But as I said, this was not supposed to be about biblical theology but should address the specific question asked by Jeffrey.

                                    Niels Peter Lemche

                                    -----Oprindelig meddelelse-----
                                    Fra: ANE-2@yahoogroups.com [mailto:ANE-2@yahoogroups.com] På vegne af Douglas Petrovich
                                    Sendt: den 24 september 2011 20:10
                                    Til: ANE-2@yahoogroups.com
                                    Emne: [ANE-2] Re: ancient religiosity

                                    Jeffrey,

                                    “I'd be grateful if you could provide some examples from the Wisdom Literature specifically which speak of a ‘world to come’, especially one that is something like ‘heaven’ rather than a ‘this world’ transformed.”

                                    Certainly we have examples of the view toward a futuristic judgment and punishment of the wicked, such as this one from Psalm 11:4-7: “Yahweh is in his holy temple; Yahweh’s throne is in heaven. His eyes see; his eyelids test the sons of men. Yahweh tests the righteous and the wicked, and the one who loves violence hates his [own] soul. He will rain down upon the wicked a plate of fire and brimstone, and burning wind will be the portion of their cup. For Yahweh is righteous; he loves righteousness. The upright will look upon his face.”

                                    The question I have, of course, is whether you’re looking for specific uses of buzzwords/phrases such as “world to come” or “this world”. The passage I have cited features “heaven”, but not the others. We should note, however, the furturistic hiphil verb “he will rain down”, which certainly points to a time beyond the present world. This is reinforced by the reference to the upright eventually being able to look upon Yahweh’s face, which also points to a time beyond this world.

                                    Personally, I do not think we would find a slew of such buzzwords/phrases in the wisdom literature. However, I’m not so sure that such a dearth should be taken to imply that the wisdom literature as a whole does not feature a distinction between the present world and the one to come, as outlined more clearly in other parts of the Hebrew Bible. The absence of buzzwords would be a slippery slope for making such a logical leap, especially given that its literary type is, by definition, non-didactic.

                                    Douglas Petrovich
                                    Toronto, Canada

                                    [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]



                                    ------------------------------------

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                                  • Jeffrey B Gibson
                                    ... Even granting for the sake of argument that this is about another age, it is still not an example taken from the Wisdom literature. So it is not pertinent
                                    Message 17 of 20 , Sep 24, 2011
                                      On 9/24/2011 1:09 PM, Douglas Petrovich wrote:
                                      > Jeffrey,
                                      >
                                      > “I'd be grateful if you could provide some examples from the Wisdom Literature specifically which speak of a ‘world to come’, especially one that is something like ‘heaven’ rather than a ‘this world’ transformed.”
                                      >
                                      > Certainly we have examples of the view toward a futuristic judgment and punishment of the wicked, such as this one from Psalm 11:4-7: “Yahweh is in his holy temple; Yahweh’s throne is in heaven. His eyes see; his eyelids test the sons of men. Yahweh tests the righteous and the wicked, and the one who loves violence hates his [own] soul. He will rain down upon the wicked a plate of fire and brimstone, and burning wind will be the portion of their cup. For Yahweh is righteous; he loves righteousness. The upright will look upon his face.”
                                      Even granting for the sake of argument that this is about another age,
                                      it is still not an example taken from the Wisdom literature. So it is
                                      not pertinent or relevant

                                      > The question I have, of course, is whether you’re looking for specific
                                      > uses of buzzwords/phrases such as “world to come” or “this world”.

                                      No. I'm not. But I **am** looking for anything in the WL that could be
                                      taken as affirming personal immortality and a non earthly paradise
                                      awaiting the dead.. So far you have not instanced anything from this
                                      corpus that could be taken this way.
                                      > The passage I have cited features “heaven”, but not the others.
                                      And the referent of heaven is a post earthly paradise for the dead?
                                      > We should note, however, the furturistic hiphil verb “he will rain
                                      > down”, which certainly points to a time beyond the present world.

                                      Certainly??? You don't seem to be well acquainted with recent critical
                                      commentary on the Psalm.
                                      > This is reinforced by the reference to the upright eventually being
                                      > able to look upon Yahweh’s face, which also points to a time beyond
                                      > this world.

                                      Are you sure? According to G.A. F. Knight, "to behold God’s face
                                      meant to enter the temple to meet him there in praise and worship". And
                                      as Craigie notes, the words “The upright shall see his face”: ... need
                                      not imply either a specific theophany in life, or even the beatific
                                      vision beyond the grave (as proposed by Dahood, Psalms I, 171), but may
                                      simply indicate the coming vindication and deliverance in which the
                                      psalmist has confidence. The crisis of oppression creates the sense that
                                      God’s face is hidden and that relationship has been disrupted, but
                                      deliverance restores a vision of the true state of affairs, so that it
                                      seems as if God has once again revealed himself (cf. Ps 9:17)."

                                      > Personally, I do not think we would find a slew of such
                                      > buzzwords/phrases in the wisdom literature. However, I’m not so sure
                                      > that such a dearth should be taken to imply that the wisdom literature
                                      > as a whole does not feature a distinction between the present world
                                      > and the one to come, as outlined more clearly in other parts of the
                                      > Hebrew Bible. The absence of buzzwords would be a slippery slope for
                                      > making such a logical leap, especially given that its literary type
                                      > is, by definition, non-didactic

                                      The Wisdom Literature in non didactic???

                                      Jeffrey

                                      --
                                      ---
                                      Jeffrey B. Gibson D.Phil. Oxon.
                                      1500 W. Pratt Blvd
                                      Chicago, Il.
                                      jgibson000@...
                                    • aren
                                      And of course, don t forget the classic: Jacobsen, T. 1976. The Treasures of Darkness: A History of Mesopotamian Religion. New Haven: Yale University Press.
                                      Message 18 of 20 , Sep 25, 2011
                                        And of course, don't forget the classic:
                                        Jacobsen, T. 1976. The Treasures of Darkness: A History of Mesopotamian Religion. New Haven: Yale University Press.

                                        Aren Maeir
                                        gath.wordpress.com


                                        --- In ANE-2@yahoogroups.com, Jeffrey B Gibson <jgibson000@...> wrote:
                                        >
                                        > On 9/24/2011 1:09 PM, Douglas Petrovich wrote:
                                        > > Jeffrey,
                                        > >
                                        > > “I'd be grateful if you could provide some examples from the Wisdom Literature specifically which speak of a ‘world to come’, especially one that is something like ‘heaven’ rather than a ‘this world’ transformed.”
                                        > >
                                        > > Certainly we have examples of the view toward a futuristic judgment and punishment of the wicked, such as this one from Psalm 11:4-7: “Yahweh is in his holy temple; Yahweh’s throne is in heaven. His eyes see; his eyelids test the sons of men. Yahweh tests the righteous and the wicked, and the one who loves violence hates his [own] soul. He will rain down upon the wicked a plate of fire and brimstone, and burning wind will be the portion of their cup. For Yahweh is righteous; he loves righteousness. The upright will look upon his face.”
                                        > Even granting for the sake of argument that this is about another age,
                                        > it is still not an example taken from the Wisdom literature. So it is
                                        > not pertinent or relevant
                                        >
                                        > > The question I have, of course, is whether you’re looking for specific
                                        > > uses of buzzwords/phrases such as “world to come” or “this world”.
                                        >
                                        > No. I'm not. But I **am** looking for anything in the WL that could be
                                        > taken as affirming personal immortality and a non earthly paradise
                                        > awaiting the dead.. So far you have not instanced anything from this
                                        > corpus that could be taken this way.
                                        > > The passage I have cited features “heaven”, but not the others.
                                        > And the referent of heaven is a post earthly paradise for the dead?
                                        > > We should note, however, the furturistic hiphil verb “he will rain
                                        > > down”, which certainly points to a time beyond the present world.
                                        >
                                        > Certainly??? You don't seem to be well acquainted with recent critical
                                        > commentary on the Psalm.
                                        > > This is reinforced by the reference to the upright eventually being
                                        > > able to look upon Yahweh’s face, which also points to a time beyond
                                        > > this world.
                                        >
                                        > Are you sure? According to G.A. F. Knight, "to behold God’s face
                                        > meant to enter the temple to meet him there in praise and worship". And
                                        > as Craigie notes, the words “The upright shall see his face”: ... need
                                        > not imply either a specific theophany in life, or even the beatific
                                        > vision beyond the grave (as proposed by Dahood, Psalms I, 171), but may
                                        > simply indicate the coming vindication and deliverance in which the
                                        > psalmist has confidence. The crisis of oppression creates the sense that
                                        > God’s face is hidden and that relationship has been disrupted, but
                                        > deliverance restores a vision of the true state of affairs, so that it
                                        > seems as if God has once again revealed himself (cf. Ps 9:17)."
                                        >
                                        > > Personally, I do not think we would find a slew of such
                                        > > buzzwords/phrases in the wisdom literature. However, I’m not so sure
                                        > > that such a dearth should be taken to imply that the wisdom literature
                                        > > as a whole does not feature a distinction between the present world
                                        > > and the one to come, as outlined more clearly in other parts of the
                                        > > Hebrew Bible. The absence of buzzwords would be a slippery slope for
                                        > > making such a logical leap, especially given that its literary type
                                        > > is, by definition, non-didactic
                                        >
                                        > The Wisdom Literature in non didactic???
                                        >
                                        > Jeffrey
                                        >
                                        > --
                                        > ---
                                        > Jeffrey B. Gibson D.Phil. Oxon.
                                        > 1500 W. Pratt Blvd
                                        > Chicago, Il.
                                        > jgibson000@...
                                        >
                                      • Graham Hagens
                                        Jeffrey B Gibson wrote September 24, 2011 12:40 PM ...   Wisdom literatature is quite a broad category; the genre permeated numerous societies from the Indus
                                        Message 19 of 20 , Sep 27, 2011
                                          Jeffrey B Gibson wrote September 24, 2011 12:40 PM


                                          >I'd be grateful if you could provide some examples from the Wisdom
                                          >Literature specifically which speak of a "world to come", especially
                                          >one that is something like "heaven" rather than a "this world" transformed.




                                           'Wisdom literatature' is quite a broad category; the genre permeated numerous societies from the Indus to the Aegean during the final centuries of the first millennium BCE, and many aspects such as Christian eschatology can be traced to Zoroastrian end time theology,
                                          Some aspects of  Zoroastrian end time theology such as post-resurrection humans neither eating nor casting shadows certainly seem to imply a spiritual rather than material 'heaven.'
                                           
                                          Such ideas also found their way into Greek thinking. For example de Jong (1997. Traditions of the Magi: Zoroastrian in Greek and Latin Literature.1997: 326):  "Theopompus (4th c. BCE). is invoked as authority for otherwise unattested millenary scheme: Ahura Mazda & Angra Mianyu each reign for 3000  years, then they fight for 3000 years.  After this battle Angra Mainyu will be defeated and mankind blessed .  Their bliss evident from two qualities: no longer eat, not cast a shadow …absence of food even before Renovation well attested elsewhere in Zn literature …absence of shadow is also not unknown …may refer to spiritual resurrection as opposed to the most familiar resurrection of material body in  Zn literature …other citations of Theopompus by Diogenes Laertius & Aeneas of Gaza are slightly different indicating need for caution ''
                                           
                                          The earlier question of  of' 'how religiosity can affect human thought/perception'  not only occupied the thinking f Democritus and  Epicurus (as others have noted), but was arguably a central theme of the entire Greek intellectual revolution going back to the 6th century..

                                          Graham Hagens
                                          Hamilton, ON


                                          [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                                        • Clark Whelton
                                          Jeffrey B Gibson wrote September 24, 2011 12:40 PM ... Not exactly on topic, but in a recent article in The Wall Street Journal Mary Beard picks the five best
                                          Message 20 of 20 , Sep 30, 2011
                                            Jeffrey B Gibson wrote September 24, 2011 12:40 PM

                                            >I'd be grateful if you could provide some examples from the Wisdom
                                            >Literature specifically which speak of a "world to come", especially
                                            >one that is something like "heaven" rather than a "this world" transformed.


                                            Not exactly on topic, but in a recent article in The Wall Street
                                            Journal Mary Beard picks the five best books on religious cults in
                                            antiquity.

                                            see
                                            http://online.wsj.com/article/SB10001424053111904106704576580971074369248.html?mod=rss_opinion_main

                                            Her five:

                                            The Greeks and the Irrational
                                            By E.R. Dodds (1951)
                                            "... a life-changing book..."


                                            A World Full of Gods
                                            By Keith Hopkins (1999)
                                            "... What did it feel like to offer sacrifice, to watch the wild dances or
                                            to join in religious ecstasy...?"


                                            The Gnostic Gospels
                                            By Elaine Pagels (1979)
                                            "The early-Christian "Jesus cult..."


                                            The Cheese and the Worms
                                            By Carlo Ginzburg (1976)
                                            "...the thought world of an eccentric miller from the Italian town of
                                            Friuli."


                                            Alexander the False Prophet
                                            By Lucian (second century)
                                            "Greeks and Romans could laugh as much as we do at the excesses and lies of
                                            religious tricksters..."



                                            Clark Whelton
                                            New York
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