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Re: the Speiser connection! Re: [ANE-2] "Earthdwellers" and "cave-dwellers"

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  • Peter T. Daniels
    The interest (or importance ) is not, in fact, in what it says, but in who wrote it. And it appears from references in Speiser s Hurrian Grammar (1941) that
    Message 1 of 20 , Aug 5, 2011
      The interest (or "importance") is not, in fact, in what it says, but in who
      wrote it.

      And it appears from references in Speiser's Hurrian Grammar (1941) that he was
      thinking

      about Hurrian as early as Mesopotamian Origins (1930), which I will be able to
      consult when I go into the city today.

      The question is whether this was idle classroom speculation, or a link in the
      chain that led to the paragraph in the Genesis commentary more than 35 years
      later. --
      Peter T. Daniels grammatim@...
      Jersey City


      >
      >From: Raz Kletter <kletterr@...>
      >To: ANE-2@yahoogroups.com
      >Sent: Fri, August 5, 2011 2:39:06 AM
      >Subject: Re: the Speiser connection! Re: [ANE-2] "Earthdwellers" and
      >"cave-dwellers"
      >

      >The question is also:
      >What is the point of discussing sources for an essay from 1928, unless this
      >essay has something 'important', 'new' to say?
      >:(
      >Raz Kletter, Helsinki
      >
      >2011/8/5 Giuseppe Regalzi <imieigruppi@...>
      >
      >> The question is: what were the sources of an essay written in 1928? We are
      >> not concerned with the historicity of those same sources, here. Of course
      >> the Horites had nothing to do with the caves of Bet Guvrin! But in 1928
      >> someone apparently believed they had.
      >>
      >> Giuseppe
      >>
      >>
      >> ----- Original Message -----
      >> From: "David Hall" <dqhall59@...>
      >> To: <ANE-2@yahoogroups.com>
      >> Sent: Thursday, August 04, 2011 8:43 PM
      >> Subject: Re: the Speiser connection! Re: [ANE-2] "Earthdwellers" and
      >> "cave-dwellers"
      >>
      >> Giuseppe,
      >>
      >> Am not sure about the Horites of Genesis being connected with Beit
      >> Guvrin/Maresha as these caves were dug by hand during the Hellenistic and
      >> Roman periods. I recall seeing an olive press in one and a columbarium in
      >> another. The rock is chalk/limestone.
      >>
      >> This midrash passage you described is suspect. Am not sure anyone knows who
      >> the Horites were or in what time period they lived. The midrash may have
      >> been written in the Roman era if not sooner.
      >>
      >>
      >> David Q. Hall
      >> Falls Church, Virginia
      >>
      >>
      >> -----------------------------------------------------
      >> Giuseppe Regalzi, PhD
      >> Rome, Italy
      >> http://independent.academia.edu/GiuseppeRegalzi
    • Antonio Lombatti
      Intensive excavations in the Near East, which have been carried out for over 100 years, show that this region merits to be called a cradle of civilization,
      Message 2 of 20 , Aug 5, 2011
        "Intensive excavations in the Near East, which have been carried out for over 100 years, show that this region merits to be called a cradle of civilization," begins the International Journal of Osteoarcheology report led by Jacek Tomczyk of Poland's Cardinal Stefan Wyszynski University.

        The study team reports on two Bronze Age burials in a tomb from the ancient trade town of Terqa, a Mesopatamian archeological site in modern-day Syria.


        Source:
        http://content.usatoday.com/communities/sciencefair/post/2011/07/tough-times-reported-for-ancient-warrior/1



        --------------------------------------------
        Antonio Lombatti
        http://www.antoniolombatti.it
        Parma, Italia



        [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
      • David Hall
        As a sidetrack from this discussion; there are photos of the Beit Guvrin caves on the Flickr travel photo site.  This one is of the olive press cave:   
        Message 3 of 20 , Aug 5, 2011
          As a sidetrack from this discussion; there are photos of the Beit Guvrin caves on the Flickr travel photo site.  This one is of the olive press cave: 
           
          http://www.flickr.com/photos/todesfee/5990540212/
           
          I saw no evidence of karst topography in the Beit Guvrin area.  
           
          David Q. Hall
          Falls Church, Virginia
           
           

          From: Peter T. Daniels <grammatim@...>
          To: ANE-2@yahoogroups.com
          Sent: Friday, August 5, 2011 7:10 AM
          Subject: Re: the Speiser connection! Re: [ANE-2] "Earthdwellers" and "cave-dwellers"


           
          The interest (or "importance") is not, in fact, in what it says, but in who
          wrote it.

          And it appears from references in Speiser's Hurrian Grammar (1941) that he was
          thinking

          about Hurrian as early as Mesopotamian Origins (1930), which I will be able to
          consult when I go into the city today.

          The question is whether this was idle classroom speculation, or a link in the
          chain that led to the paragraph in the Genesis commentary more than 35 years
          later. --
          Peter T. Daniels grammatim@...
          Jersey City

          >
          >From: Raz Kletter <kletterr@...>
          >To: ANE-2@yahoogroups.com
          >Sent: Fri, August 5, 2011 2:39:06 AM
          >Subject: Re: the Speiser connection! Re: [ANE-2] "Earthdwellers" and
          >"cave-dwellers"
          >

          >The question is also:
          >What is the point of discussing sources for an essay from 1928, unless this
          >essay has something 'important', 'new' to say?
          >:(
          >Raz Kletter, Helsinki
          >
          >2011/8/5 Giuseppe Regalzi <imieigruppi@...>
          >
          >> The question is: what were the sources of an essay written in 1928? We are
          >> not concerned with the historicity of those same sources, here. Of course
          >> the Horites had nothing to do with the caves of Bet Guvrin! But in 1928
          >> someone apparently believed they had.
          >>
          >> Giuseppe
          >>
          >>
          >> ----- Original Message -----
          >> From: "David Hall" <dqhall59@...>
          >> To: <ANE-2@yahoogroups.com>
          >> Sent: Thursday, August 04, 2011 8:43 PM
          >> Subject: Re: the Speiser connection! Re: [ANE-2] "Earthdwellers" and
          >> "cave-dwellers"
          >>
          >> Giuseppe,
          >>
          >> Am not sure about the Horites of Genesis being connected with Beit
          >> Guvrin/Maresha as these caves were dug by hand during the Hellenistic and
          >> Roman periods. I recall seeing an olive press in one and a columbarium in
          >> another. The rock is chalk/limestone.
          >>
          >> This midrash passage you described is suspect. Am not sure anyone knows who
          >> the Horites were or in what time period they lived. The midrash may have
          >> been written in the Roman era if not sooner.
          >>
          >>
          >> David Q. Hall
          >> Falls Church, Virginia
          >>
          >>
          >> -----------------------------------------------------
          >> Giuseppe Regalzi, PhD
          >> Rome, Italy
          >> http://independent.academia.edu/GiuseppeRegalzi



          [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
        • Peter T. Daniels
          David, What s the basis of your dating to Hellenistic and Roman periods for the creation of the caves? The site linked earlier
          Message 4 of 20 , Sep 9, 2011
            David,

            What's the basis of your dating to "Hellenistic and Roman periods" for the creation of the caves? The site linked earlier

            http://www.parks.org.il/BuildaGate5/general2/data_card.php?Cat=~25~~131474600

            says only "For thousands of years," which suggests they go back before then, perhaps to when "Rehoboam...built cities for defense in Judah...Gath, and Mareshah, and Ziph” (2
            Chron. 11:5–8).

            Still a bit late for Hurrians, or even Horites!

            --
            Peter T. Daniels grammatim@...
            Jersey City
            From: David Hall <dqhall59@...>
            >To: ANE-2@yahoogroups.com
            >Sent: Thursday, August 4, 2011 2:43 PM
            >Subject: Re: the Speiser connection! Re: [ANE-2] "Earthdwellers" and "cave-dwellers"
            >
            >
            >  
            >
            >Giuseppe,
            >
            >Am not sure about the Horites of Genesis being connected with Beit
            >Guvrin/Maresha as these caves were dug by hand during the Hellenistic and Roman
            >periods.  I recall seeing an olive press in one and a columbarium in another. 
            >The rock is chalk/limestone.     
            >
            >This midrash passage you described is suspect.  Am not sure anyone knows who the
            >Horites were or in what time period they lived.  The midrash may have been
            >written in the Roman era if not sooner. 
            >
            >David Q. Hall
            >Falls Church, Virginia
            >

            >
            >________________________________
            >From: Giuseppe Regalzi <imieigruppi@...>
            >To: ANE-2@yahoogroups.com
            >Sent: Thu, August 4, 2011 1:30:19 PM
            >Subject: Re: the Speiser connection! Re: [ANE-2] "Earthdwellers" and
            >"cave-dwellers"
            >

            >>> Petr Tomasek wrote "of course, בית גוברין is a archeological site in
            >>> today's Israel".
            >>
            >> Which is completely irrelevant to the situation in 1928!
            >
            >It was an archeological site already in 1928. Anyway, what is important is
            >that בית גוברין is a toponym in the essay.
            >
            >> But our author does not connect "Horite" with "Cave-dweller," but rather
            >> "Bet Gubrin" with "Cave-dweller."
            >
            >We know that "cave-dweller" was a folk etymology for Horite; we know that a
            >midrash states that the Horites dwelled in the caves of Bet Gubrin; we find
            >Horites, cave-dwellers and Bet Gubrin together in a single sentence in the
            >essay. Maybe it's not a chance; and since the author was an undergraduate,
            >perhaps we should allow for a little imprecision.
            >
            >GR
            >
            >------------------------------------------------------
            >Giuseppe Regalzi, PhD
            >Rome, Italy
            >http://independent.academia.edu/GiuseppeRegalzi
            >

            [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
          • David Hall
            Thousands of years old goes back to the Hellenistic times.  That is more than least two thousand years old.  At Beit Guvrin there is a Cave of the
            Message 5 of 20 , Sep 9, 2011
              Thousands of years old goes back to the Hellenistic times.  That is more than least two thousand years old.  At Beit Guvrin there is a Cave of the Musicians with a pipe player wall mural dated to Hellenistic times.  There are niche burials dated back to the Hellenistic times.  The Columbarium reminded me of Roman structures I had seen photos of; am not sure when the earliest columbarium with this elaborate cell structure was made.  A pigoen was perched in one of the cells while I was there.  The people gave pigeons shelter and then collected the dung on the floor of the columbarium for fertilizer.  There is a round opening in the ceiling of the columbarium open to the sky.  The olive press cave was built for the olive press.  The press reminded me of other presses from this era not the earlier type such as a replica on display at Hazor destroyed by the Assyrians.
               
              From a walking tour I had had to agree with the tourist pamphlet Beit Guvrin was a Hellenistic-Roman habitation.  The Bronze and Iron Age burial caves were different. 
               
              The troglodytes of the Paleolithic may have lived in caves to the north.  There is a large natural Paleolithic cave in Nazareth.  There were natural caves in other parts of Galilee also. 
               
              David Q. Hall
              Falls Church, Virginia

              From: Peter T. Daniels <grammatim@...>
              To: "ANE-2@yahoogroups.com" <ANE-2@yahoogroups.com>
              Sent: Friday, September 9, 2011 10:31 AM
              Subject: Beit Guvrin caves Re: the Speiser connection! Re: [ANE-2] "Earthdwellers" and "cave-dwellers"


               
              David,

              What's the basis of your dating to "Hellenistic and Roman periods" for the creation of the caves? The site linked earlier

              http://www.parks.org.il/BuildaGate5/general2/data_card.php?Cat=~25~~131474600

              says only "For thousands of years," which suggests they go back before then, perhaps to when "Rehoboam...built cities for defense in Judah...Gath, and Mareshah, and Ziph” (2
              Chron. 11:5–8).

              Still a bit late for Hurrians, or even Horites!

              --
              Peter T. Daniels grammatim@...
              Jersey City
              From: David Hall <dqhall59@...>
              >To: ANE-2@yahoogroups.com
              >Sent: Thursday, August 4, 2011 2:43 PM
              >Subject: Re: the Speiser connection! Re: [ANE-2] "Earthdwellers" and "cave-dwellers"
              >
              >
              >  
              >
              >Giuseppe,
              >
              >Am not sure about the Horites of Genesis being connected with Beit
              >Guvrin/Maresha as these caves were dug by hand during the Hellenistic and Roman
              >periods.  I recall seeing an olive press in one and a columbarium in another. 
              >The rock is chalk/limestone.     
              >
              >This midrash passage you described is suspect.  Am not sure anyone knows who the
              >Horites were or in what time period they lived.  The midrash may have been
              >written in the Roman era if not sooner. 
              >
              >David Q. Hall
              >Falls Church, Virginia
              >

              >
              >________________________________
              >From: Giuseppe Regalzi <imieigruppi@...>
              >To: ANE-2@yahoogroups.com
              >Sent: Thu, August 4, 2011 1:30:19 PM
              >Subject: Re: the Speiser connection! Re: [ANE-2] "Earthdwellers" and
              >"cave-dwellers"
              >

              >>> Petr Tomasek wrote "of course, בית גוברין is a archeological site in
              >>> today's Israel".
              >>
              >> Which is completely irrelevant to the situation in 1928!
              >
              >It was an archeological site already in 1928. Anyway, what is important is
              >that בית גוברין is a toponym in the essay.
              >
              >> But our author does not connect "Horite" with "Cave-dweller," but rather
              >> "Bet Gubrin" with "Cave-dweller."
              >
              >We know that "cave-dweller" was a folk etymology for Horite; we know that a
              >midrash states that the Horites dwelled in the caves of Bet Gubrin; we find
              >Horites, cave-dwellers and Bet Gubrin together in a single sentence in the
              >essay. Maybe it's not a chance; and since the author was an undergraduate,
              >perhaps we should allow for a little imprecision.
              >
              >GR
              >
              >------------------------------------------------------
              >Giuseppe Regalzi, PhD
              >Rome, Italy
              >http://independent.academia.edu/GiuseppeRegalzi
              >

              [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]




              [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
            • Peter T. Daniels
              Thank you --   but I do think using the plural thousands to mean maybe as much as 2500 is rather misleading!  -- Peter T. Daniels grammatim@verizon.net
              Message 6 of 20 , Sep 10, 2011
                Thank you --
                 
                but I do think using the plural "thousands" to mean 'maybe as much as 2500' is rather misleading! 
                --
                Peter T. Daniels grammatim@...
                Jersey City

                From: David Hall <dqhall59@...>
                >To: "ANE-2@yahoogroups.com" <ANE-2@yahoogroups.com>
                >Sent: Friday, September 9, 2011 6:46 PM
                >Subject: Re: Beit Guvrin caves Re: the Speiser connection! Re: [ANE-2] "Earthdwellers" and "cave-dwellers"
                >
                >
                >  
                >
                >Thousands of years old goes back to the Hellenistic times.  That is more than least two thousand years old.  At Beit Guvrin there is a Cave of the Musicians with a pipe player wall mural dated to Hellenistic times.  There are niche burials dated back to the Hellenistic times.  The Columbarium reminded me of Roman structures I had seen photos of; am not sure when the earliest columbarium with this elaborate cell structure was made.  A pigoen was perched in one of the cells while I was there.  The people gave pigeons shelter and then collected the dung on the floor of the columbarium for fertilizer.  There is a round opening in the ceiling of the columbarium open to the sky.  The olive press cave was built for the olive press.  The press reminded me of other presses from this era not the earlier type such as a replica on display at Hazor destroyed by the Assyrians.

                >From a walking tour I had had to agree with the tourist pamphlet Beit Guvrin was a Hellenistic-Roman habitation.  The Bronze and Iron Age burial caves were different. 

                >The troglodytes of the Paleolithic may have lived in caves to the north.  There is a large natural Paleolithic cave in Nazareth.  There were natural caves in other parts of Galilee also. 

                >David Q. Hall
                >Falls Church, Virginia
                >
                >From: Peter T. Daniels <grammatim@...>
                >To: "ANE-2@yahoogroups.com" <ANE-2@yahoogroups.com>
                >Sent: Friday, September 9, 2011 10:31 AM
                >Subject: Beit Guvrin caves Re: the Speiser connection! Re: [ANE-2] "Earthdwellers" and "cave-dwellers"
                >

                >David,
                >
                >What's the basis of your dating to "Hellenistic and Roman periods" for the creation of the caves? The site linked earlier
                >
                >http://www.parks.org.il/BuildaGate5/general2/data_card.php?Cat=~25~~131474600
                >
                >says only "For thousands of years," which suggests they go back before then, perhaps to when "Rehoboam...built cities for defense in Judah...Gath, and Mareshah, and Ziph” (2
                >Chron. 11:5–8).
                >
                >Still a bit late for Hurrians, or even Horites!
                >
                >--
                >Peter T. Daniels grammatim@...
                >Jersey City
                >From: David Hall <dqhall59@...>
                >>To: ANE-2@yahoogroups.com
                >>Sent: Thursday, August 4, 2011 2:43 PM
                >>Subject: Re: the Speiser connection! Re: [ANE-2] "Earthdwellers" and "cave-dwellers"
                >>
                >>
                >>  
                >>
                >>Giuseppe,
                >>
                >>Am not sure about the Horites of Genesis being connected with Beit
                >>Guvrin/Maresha as these caves were dug by hand during the Hellenistic and Roman
                >>periods.  I recall seeing an olive press in one and a columbarium in another. 
                >>The rock is chalk/limestone.     
                >>
                >>This midrash passage you described is suspect.  Am not sure anyone knows who the
                >>Horites were or in what time period they lived.  The midrash may have been
                >>written in the Roman era if not sooner. 
                >>
                >>David Q. Hall
                >>Falls Church, Virginia
                >>
                >> 
                >>
                >>________________________________
                >>From: Giuseppe Regalzi <imieigruppi@...>
                >>To: ANE-2@yahoogroups.com
                >>Sent: Thu, August 4, 2011 1:30:19 PM
                >>Subject: Re: the Speiser connection! Re: [ANE-2] "Earthdwellers" and
                >>"cave-dwellers"
                >>
                >> 
                >>>> Petr Tomasek wrote "of course, בית גוברין is a archeological site in
                >>>> today's Israel".
                >>>
                >>> Which is completely irrelevant to the situation in 1928!
                >>
                >>It was an archeological site already in 1928. Anyway, what is important is
                >>that בית גוברין is a toponym in the essay.
                >>
                >>> But our author does not connect "Horite" with "Cave-dweller," but rather
                >>> "Bet Gubrin" with "Cave-dweller."
                >>
                >>We know that "cave-dweller" was a folk etymology for Horite; we know that a
                >>midrash states that the Horites dwelled in the caves of Bet Gubrin; we find
                >>Horites, cave-dwellers and Bet Gubrin together in a single sentence in the
                >>essay. Maybe it's not a chance; and since the author was an undergraduate,
                >>perhaps we should allow for a little imprecision.
                >>
                >>GR
                >>
                >>------------------------------------------------------
                >>Giuseppe Regalzi, PhD
                >>Rome, Italy
                >>http://independent.academia.edu/GiuseppeRegalzi
                >>
                >
                >[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                >
                >[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                >
                >
                >
                >
                >

                [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
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