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1QIsa[a]

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  • Brian Colless
    This thread has caused me to recall sitting in a Mishnaic Hebrew class at Sydney University more than 50 years ago. The teacher was Rabbi Israel Por(r)ush, I
    Message 1 of 13 , Jul 3, 2011
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      This thread has caused me to recall sitting in a Mishnaic Hebrew class
      at Sydney University more than 50 years ago.

      The teacher was Rabbi Israel Por(r)ush, I had been in a Latin class
      with his daughter Naomi, 5 years before that, and I always envied her
      sitting in the library doing Hebrew exercises (teacher was ECB
      Maclauren) with the Brown, Driver, and Briggs lexicon open in front of
      her. When I started as a language teacher in a secondary school I was
      finally able to attend Hebrew courses in the late afternoon.

      On one occasion my Rabbi was asked a question about the text of the
      DSS and MT; he paused, and remained silent for a while, then said he
      was running through the first page of Isaiah in both texts, comparing
      them.

      I never found out whether he had actually memorized the whole book of
      Yesha`yahu in those two editions.

      Brian Colless
      Massey University, NZ

      From: Victor Hurowitz
      Sent: Sunday, July 03, 2011 6:57 AM
      To: ANE-2@yahoogroups.com
      Cc: 'Jack Kilmon'
      Subject: RE: [ANE-2] 1QIsa[a]

      How can you say the scroll is "dead on" to the MT? There are hundreds
      of orthographic differences which were studied years ago by Y.
      Kutscher and shown to be essentially "cribs" making the scroll
      readable to someone who spoke a later dialect of Hebrew. You are right
      that the scroll couldn't have been written from memory, but it wasn't
      simply copied out from an earlier version either. It was revised in
      the process of copying. It's basic text is of the MT variety, but it
      itself is hardly MT.

      Victor Hurowitz
      On 3/07/2011, at 2:55 AM, Jack Kilmon wrote:

      > Good morning, Tom:
      > I am just finishing my first cup of Jamaican Blue Mountain. I agree
      > with
      > you. Having just finished reading each column of the scroll, except
      > for
      > errors of omission and repetition, 1QIsa(a) is "dead on" to the later
      > Masoretic text. Although one of the Isaiah scrolls may have been an
      > "exercise" and perhaps from memory, the Great Scroll was
      > penned...er...reeded...for use and halakha would have forbidden using
      > memory. A "memory scroll" would not be such an accurate proto-
      > Masoretic
      > example as is this one. The reproduction I am making is actually a
      > reconstruction designed to look exactly as the scroll looked when
      > the scribe
      > wrote his last letter, so there will be no lacunae. Reconstructing
      > the text
      > in the lacunae falls perfectly in line with the MT. This is
      > important to me
      > since sheepskins are not cheap. This scroll, the original, not mine,
      > was
      > definitely not written from memory. There are marginal notes from
      > editors
      > for some of the parablepsy and some were missed by the editor(s).
      >
      > Jack Kilmon
      >
      > -----Original Message-----
      > From: Tom Verenna
      > Sent: Saturday, July 02, 2011 7:56 AM
      > To: ANE-2@yahoogroups.com
      > Subject: Re: [ANE-2] 1QIsa[a]
      >
      > I'm aware of copy errors as they are quite easy to prove within a
      > text.
      > However I am not sure I am persuaded that one can argue that a whole
      > document is produced from memory. Perhaps one might argue that a
      > text might
      > be 'contaminated' by memory inclinations, whence through the process
      > of
      > copying a text over an over might produce. Like when a student, who
      > light
      > copy a quote from a poet, might stop looking at the text he is
      > copying and
      > include the line or verse from memory, perhaps slightly skewing it.
      > But can
      > one adequately argue for memory? I think that one would be
      > hardpressed to
      > argue convincingly that particular case. But then again, I am just
      > waking
      > up, and have not yet had a cup of coffee, so perhaps I am not yet
      > alert
      > enough to grasp the argument.
      >
      > Thomas Verenna
      > Philadelphia, PA
      >
      > Sent from my iPhone
      >
      > On Jul 1, 2011, at 4:37 PM, George F Somsel <gfsomsel@...>
      > wrote:
      >
      > > In the NT it is common to see errors which are either generated by
      > errors
      > > of the
      > > eye or errors of hearing. One might skip a line because there is
      > another
      > > line
      > > with the same ending (homoioteuleuton) or even repeat a line. On the
      > > other hand
      > > when the vowels began to iticize, i.e., coalesce into an "i"
      > sound. Thus
      > > there
      > > are clues to what the cause might be for an an error, but evidence
      > isn't
      > > always
      > > present. If one finds a passage which is similar in some respects to
      > > another,
      > > one might find some elements introduced from the other passage
      > which would
      > > then
      > > indicate an error of memory.
      > > george
      > > gfsomsel
      > >
      > > � search for truth, hear truth,
      > > learn truth, love truth, speak the truth, hold the truth,
      > > defend the truth till death.
      > >
      > > - Jan Hus
      > > _________
      > >
      > > ________________________________
      > > From: Tom Verenna <tsverenna@...>
      > > To: "ANE-2@yahoogroups.com" <ANE-2@yahoogroups.com>
      > > Sent: Fri, July 1, 2011 12:02:54 PM
      > > Subject: Re: [ANE-2] 1QIsa[a]
      > >
      > >
      > > One has to wonder how anyone can determine that...
      > >
      > > Thomas Verenna
      > > Philadelphia, PA
      > >
      > > Sent from my iPhone
      > >
      > > On Jul 1, 2011, at 12:15 PM, Stephen Goranson <goranson@...>
      > wrote:
      > >
      > > > Millar Burrows, The Dead Sea Scrolls (1955) page 114:
      > > > "He may have been writing from dictation or even from memory."
      > > >
      > > > Stephen Goranson
      > > > http://www.duke.edu/~goranson
      > > >
      > > >
      > > > ________________________________
      > > > From: ANE-2@yahoogroups.com [ANE-2@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of
      > Petr
      > > > Tomasek
      > > >[tomasek@...]
      > > > Sent: Friday, July 01, 2011 11:29 AM
      > > > To: ane-2@yahoogroups.com
      > > > Subject: [ANE-2] 1QIsa[a]
      > > >
      > > >
      > > >
      > > > Hello!
      > > >
      > > > Can someone from the Qumran experts, please, confirm or falsify me
      > > > my feeling that someone suggested a hypothesis that 1QIsa[a]
      > > > was not copyied from another scroll, but written from memory?
      > > >
      > > > If so, would You, please, point me to the appropriate sources?
      > > >
      > > > Thank You very much,
      > > >
      > > > Petr Tom��ek,
      > > > PhD student,
      > > > The Protestant Theological Faculty,
      > > > Charles University, Prague
      > > >
      > > > --
      > > > Petr Tomasek <http://www.etf.cuni.cz/~tomasek>
      > > > Jabber: butrus@...<mailto:butrus%40jabbim.cz>
      > > >
      > > > ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
      > > > EA 355:001 DU DU DU DU
      > > > EA 355:002 TU TU TU TU
      > > > EA 355:003 NU NU NU NU NU NU NU
      > > > EA 355:004 NA NA NA NA NA
      > > > ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
      > > >
      > > >
      > > >
      > > >
      > > >
      > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
      > > >
      > > >
      > > >
      > > > ------------------------------------
      > > >
      > > > Yahoo! Groups Links
      > > >
      > > >
      > > >
      > >
      > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
      > >
      > >
      >
      > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
      >
      > ------------------------------------
      >
      > Yahoo! Groups Links
      >
      >
      >



      [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
    • victor avigdor hurowitz
      The first chapter in the book of Isaiah is the haftarah for the Shabbat before 9th Av and many people have it memorized, perhaps because it is chanted
      Message 2 of 13 , Jul 4, 2011
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        The first chapter in the book of Isaiah is the haftarah for the Shabbat
        before 9th Av and many people have it memorized, perhaps because it is
        chanted customarily following the cantillation of the Scroll of
        Lamentations, so it's no real big trick to look at the first column of
        1QIs(a) while you're chanting MT Isaiah and noting differences. And
        someone who had already committed MT to memory shouldn't have too much
        trouble remembering the variants in the Scroll.
        Victor Hurowitz
        BGU




        On Mon, 4 Jul 2011, Brian Colless wrote:

        > This thread has caused me to recall sitting in a Mishnaic Hebrew class
        > at Sydney University more than 50 years ago.
        >
        > The teacher was Rabbi Israel Por(r)ush, I had been in a Latin class
        > with his daughter Naomi, 5 years before that, and I always envied her
        > sitting in the library doing Hebrew exercises (teacher was ECB
        > Maclauren) with the Brown, Driver, and Briggs lexicon open in front of
        > her. When I started as a language teacher in a secondary school I was
        > finally able to attend Hebrew courses in the late afternoon.
        >
        > On one occasion my Rabbi was asked a question about the text of the
        > DSS and MT; he paused, and remained silent for a while, then said he
        > was running through the first page of Isaiah in both texts, comparing
        > them.
        >
        > I never found out whether he had actually memorized the whole book of
        > Yesha`yahu in those two editions.
        >
        > Brian Colless
        > Massey University, NZ
        >
        > From: Victor Hurowitz
        > Sent: Sunday, July 03, 2011 6:57 AM
        > To: ANE-2@yahoogroups.com
        > Cc: 'Jack Kilmon'
        > Subject: RE: [ANE-2] 1QIsa[a]
        >
        > How can you say the scroll is "dead on" to the MT? There are hundreds
        > of orthographic differences which were studied years ago by Y.
        > Kutscher and shown to be essentially "cribs" making the scroll
        > readable to someone who spoke a later dialect of Hebrew. You are right
        > that the scroll couldn't have been written from memory, but it wasn't
        > simply copied out from an earlier version either. It was revised in
        > the process of copying. It's basic text is of the MT variety, but it
        > itself is hardly MT.
        >
        > Victor Hurowitz
        > On 3/07/2011, at 2:55 AM, Jack Kilmon wrote:
        >
        >> Good morning, Tom:
        >> I am just finishing my first cup of Jamaican Blue Mountain. I agree
        >> with
        >> you. Having just finished reading each column of the scroll, except
        >> for
        >> errors of omission and repetition, 1QIsa(a) is "dead on" to the later
        >> Masoretic text. Although one of the Isaiah scrolls may have been an
        >> "exercise" and perhaps from memory, the Great Scroll was
        >> penned...er...reeded...for use and halakha would have forbidden using
        >> memory. A "memory scroll" would not be such an accurate proto-
        >> Masoretic
        >> example as is this one. The reproduction I am making is actually a
        >> reconstruction designed to look exactly as the scroll looked when
        >> the scribe
        >> wrote his last letter, so there will be no lacunae. Reconstructing
        >> the text
        >> in the lacunae falls perfectly in line with the MT. This is
        >> important to me
        >> since sheepskins are not cheap. This scroll, the original, not mine,
        >> was
        >> definitely not written from memory. There are marginal notes from
        >> editors
        >> for some of the parablepsy and some were missed by the editor(s).
        >>
        >> Jack Kilmon
        >>
        >> -----Original Message-----
        >> From: Tom Verenna
        >> Sent: Saturday, July 02, 2011 7:56 AM
        >> To: ANE-2@yahoogroups.com
        >> Subject: Re: [ANE-2] 1QIsa[a]
        >>
        >> I'm aware of copy errors as they are quite easy to prove within a
        >> text.
        >> However I am not sure I am persuaded that one can argue that a whole
        >> document is produced from memory. Perhaps one might argue that a
        >> text might
        >> be 'contaminated' by memory inclinations, whence through the process
        >> of
        >> copying a text over an over might produce. Like when a student, who
        >> light
        >> copy a quote from a poet, might stop looking at the text he is
        >> copying and
        >> include the line or verse from memory, perhaps slightly skewing it.
        >> But can
        >> one adequately argue for memory? I think that one would be
        >> hardpressed to
        >> argue convincingly that particular case. But then again, I am just
        >> waking
        >> up, and have not yet had a cup of coffee, so perhaps I am not yet
        >> alert
        >> enough to grasp the argument.
        >>
        >> Thomas Verenna
        >> Philadelphia, PA
        >>
        >> Sent from my iPhone
        >>
        >> On Jul 1, 2011, at 4:37 PM, George F Somsel <gfsomsel@...>
        >> wrote:
        >>
        >>> In the NT it is common to see errors which are either generated by
        >> errors
        >>> of the
        >>> eye or errors of hearing. One might skip a line because there is
        >> another
        >>> line
        >>> with the same ending (homoioteuleuton) or even repeat a line. On the
        >>> other hand
        >>> when the vowels began to iticize, i.e., coalesce into an "i"
        >> sound. Thus
        >>> there
        >>> are clues to what the cause might be for an an error, but evidence
        >> isn't
        >>> always
        >>> present. If one finds a passage which is similar in some respects to
        >>> another,
        >>> one might find some elements introduced from the other passage
        >> which would
        >>> then
        >>> indicate an error of memory.
        >>> george
        >>> gfsomsel
        >>>
        >>> ? search for truth, hear truth,
        >>> learn truth, love truth, speak the truth, hold the truth,
        >>> defend the truth till death.
        >>>
        >>> - Jan Hus
        >>> _________
        >>>
        >>> ________________________________
        >>> From: Tom Verenna <tsverenna@...>
        >>> To: "ANE-2@yahoogroups.com" <ANE-2@yahoogroups.com>
        >>> Sent: Fri, July 1, 2011 12:02:54 PM
        >>> Subject: Re: [ANE-2] 1QIsa[a]
        >>>
        >>>
        >>> One has to wonder how anyone can determine that...
        >>>
        >>> Thomas Verenna
        >>> Philadelphia, PA
        >>>
        >>> Sent from my iPhone
        >>>
        >>> On Jul 1, 2011, at 12:15 PM, Stephen Goranson <goranson@...>
        >> wrote:
        >>>
        >>>> Millar Burrows, The Dead Sea Scrolls (1955) page 114:
        >>>> "He may have been writing from dictation or even from memory."
        >>>>
        >>>> Stephen Goranson
        >>>> http://www.duke.edu/~goranson
        >>>>
        >>>>
        >>>> ________________________________
        >>>> From: ANE-2@yahoogroups.com [ANE-2@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of
        >> Petr
        >>>> Tomasek
        >>>> [tomasek@...]
        >>>> Sent: Friday, July 01, 2011 11:29 AM
        >>>> To: ane-2@yahoogroups.com
        >>>> Subject: [ANE-2] 1QIsa[a]
        >>>>
        >>>>
        >>>>
        >>>> Hello!
        >>>>
        >>>> Can someone from the Qumran experts, please, confirm or falsify me
        >>>> my feeling that someone suggested a hypothesis that 1QIsa[a]
        >>>> was not copyied from another scroll, but written from memory?
        >>>>
        >>>> If so, would You, please, point me to the appropriate sources?
        >>>>
        >>>> Thank You very much,
        >>>>
        >>>> Petr Tom�?ek,
        >>>> PhD student,
        >>>> The Protestant Theological Faculty,
        >>>> Charles University, Prague
        >>>>
        >>>> --
        >>>> Petr Tomasek <http://www.etf.cuni.cz/~tomasek>
        >>>> Jabber: butrus@...<mailto:butrus%40jabbim.cz>
        >>>>
        >>>> ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
        >>>> EA 355:001 DU DU DU DU
        >>>> EA 355:002 TU TU TU TU
        >>>> EA 355:003 NU NU NU NU NU NU NU
        >>>> EA 355:004 NA NA NA NA NA
        >>>> ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
        >>>>
        >>>>
        >>>>
        >>>>
        >>>>
        >>>> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
        >>>>
        >>>>
        >>>>
        >>>> ------------------------------------
        >>>>
        >>>> Yahoo! Groups Links
        >>>>
        >>>>
        >>>>
        >>>
        >>> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
        >>>
        >>>
        >>
        >> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
        >>
        >> ------------------------------------
        >>
        >> Yahoo! Groups Links
        >>
        >>
        >>
        >
        >
        >
        > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
        >
        >
        >
        > ------------------------------------
        >
        > Yahoo! Groups Links
        >
        >
        >
        >

        [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
      • victor avigdor hurowitz
        Dear ANE, Ever since ANE went to YAHOO I have not been able to communicate by using Microsoft Office Outlook. For some reason my address is rejected. Yesterday
        Message 3 of 13 , Jul 4, 2011
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          Dear ANE,
          Ever since ANE went to YAHOO I have not been able to communicate by using
          Microsoft Office Outlook. For some reason my address is rejected.
          Yesterday I finally tried to register again and I was successful in
          sending one letter to ANE. Today, a few minutes ago I tried again by
          replying to Brian Colless, but again I was rejected.
          I am writing at this very moment on the old Telnet program which is how I
          always used to communicate with ANE. What must I do to register again with
          the YAHOO?
          Thanks,
          Victor Hurowitz
          ANE
        • Robert M Whiting
          ... Dear Victor (and others with similar problems), By rejected, I presume you mean that yahoo sends you a message saying you must be a member to post messages
          Message 4 of 13 , Jul 4, 2011
          • 0 Attachment
            On Mon, 4 Jul 2011, victor avigdor hurowitz wrote:

            > Dear ANE,
            > Ever since ANE went to YAHOO I have not been able to communicate by using
            > Microsoft Office Outlook. For some reason my address is rejected.
            > Yesterday I finally tried to register again and I was successful in
            > sending one letter to ANE. Today, a few minutes ago I tried again by
            > replying to Brian Colless, but again I was rejected.
            > I am writing at this very moment on the old Telnet program which is how I
            > always used to communicate with ANE. What must I do to register again with
            > the YAHOO?

            Dear Victor (and others with similar problems),

            By rejected, I presume you mean that yahoo sends you a message saying you
            must be a member to post messages to the group. The most common reason
            for this is that you are trying to post from a address that is not
            registered with yahoo.

            To fix this, go to the ANE-2 home page (or any sub-page) and click on the
            link that says "Edit Membership" near the top of the page (just under the
            advertising banner). This will take you to a page that contains your
            optional settings for the group. Under "Step 1." there is a section
            labeled "Email Addresses". Make sure that all the addresses that you may
            want to post from are included. If not, click on the link that says "Add
            new email address" and then add any additional email addresses. Once the
            email address is registered, you should be able to post from it.

            If this doesn't fix your problem, it may be specific to MSOutlook in which
            case, since I don't use Outlook, you're on your own.

            Bob Whiting
            whiting@...
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