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Re: [ANE-2] 1QIsa[a]

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  • Tom Verenna
    One has to wonder how anyone can determine that... Thomas Verenna Philadelphia, PA Sent from my iPhone
    Message 1 of 13 , Jul 1, 2011
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      One has to wonder how anyone can determine that...

      Thomas Verenna
      Philadelphia, PA

      Sent from my iPhone

      On Jul 1, 2011, at 12:15 PM, Stephen Goranson <goranson@...> wrote:

      > Millar Burrows, The Dead Sea Scrolls (1955) page 114:
      > "He may have been writing from dictation or even from memory."
      >
      > Stephen Goranson
      > http://www.duke.edu/~goranson
      >
      >
      > ________________________________
      > From: ANE-2@yahoogroups.com [ANE-2@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of Petr Tomasek [tomasek@...]
      > Sent: Friday, July 01, 2011 11:29 AM
      > To: ane-2@yahoogroups.com
      > Subject: [ANE-2] 1QIsa[a]
      >
      >
      >
      > Hello!
      >
      > Can someone from the Qumran experts, please, confirm or falsify me
      > my feeling that someone suggested a hypothesis that 1QIsa[a]
      > was not copyied from another scroll, but written from memory?
      >
      > If so, would You, please, point me to the appropriate sources?
      >
      > Thank You very much,
      >
      > Petr Tomášek,
      > PhD student,
      > The Protestant Theological Faculty,
      > Charles University, Prague
      >
      > --
      > Petr Tomasek <http://www.etf.cuni.cz/~tomasek>
      > Jabber: butrus@...<mailto:butrus%40jabbim.cz>
      >
      > ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
      > EA 355:001 DU DU DU DU
      > EA 355:002 TU TU TU TU
      > EA 355:003 NU NU NU NU NU NU NU
      > EA 355:004 NA NA NA NA NA
      > ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
      >
      >
      >
      >
      >
      > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
      >
      >
      >
      > ------------------------------------
      >
      > Yahoo! Groups Links
      >
      >
      >
    • George F Somsel
      In the NT it is common to see errors which are either generated by errors of the eye or errors of hearing.  One might skip a line because there is another
      Message 2 of 13 , Jul 1, 2011
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        In the NT it is common to see errors which are either generated by errors of the
        eye or errors of hearing.  One might skip a line because there is another line
        with the same ending (homoioteuleuton) or even repeat a line.  On the other hand
        when the vowels began to iticize, i.e., coalesce into an "i" sound.  Thus there
        are clues to what the cause might be for an an error, but evidence isn't always
        present.  If one finds a passage which is similar in some respects to another,
        one might find some elements introduced from the other passage which would then
        indicate an error of memory. 
         george
        gfsomsel


        … search for truth, hear truth,
        learn truth, love truth, speak the truth, hold the truth,
        defend the truth till death.


        - Jan Hus
        _________




        ________________________________
        From: Tom Verenna <tsverenna@...>
        To: "ANE-2@yahoogroups.com" <ANE-2@yahoogroups.com>
        Sent: Fri, July 1, 2011 12:02:54 PM
        Subject: Re: [ANE-2] 1QIsa[a]

         
        One has to wonder how anyone can determine that...

        Thomas Verenna
        Philadelphia, PA

        Sent from my iPhone

        On Jul 1, 2011, at 12:15 PM, Stephen Goranson <goranson@...> wrote:

        > Millar Burrows, The Dead Sea Scrolls (1955) page 114:
        > "He may have been writing from dictation or even from memory."
        >
        > Stephen Goranson
        > http://www.duke.edu/~goranson
        >
        >
        > ________________________________
        > From: ANE-2@yahoogroups.com [ANE-2@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of Petr Tomasek
        >[tomasek@...]
        > Sent: Friday, July 01, 2011 11:29 AM
        > To: ane-2@yahoogroups.com
        > Subject: [ANE-2] 1QIsa[a]
        >
        >
        >
        > Hello!
        >
        > Can someone from the Qumran experts, please, confirm or falsify me
        > my feeling that someone suggested a hypothesis that 1QIsa[a]
        > was not copyied from another scroll, but written from memory?
        >
        > If so, would You, please, point me to the appropriate sources?
        >
        > Thank You very much,
        >
        > Petr Tomášek,
        > PhD student,
        > The Protestant Theological Faculty,
        > Charles University, Prague
        >
        > --
        > Petr Tomasek <http://www.etf.cuni.cz/~tomasek>
        > Jabber: butrus@...<mailto:butrus%40jabbim.cz>
        >
        > ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
        > EA 355:001 DU DU DU DU
        > EA 355:002 TU TU TU TU
        > EA 355:003 NU NU NU NU NU NU NU
        > EA 355:004 NA NA NA NA NA
        > ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
        >
        >
        >
        >
        >
        > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
        >
        >
        >
        > ------------------------------------
        >
        > Yahoo! Groups Links
        >
        >
        >



        [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
      • Peter T. Daniels
        See Jack Kilmon s posting on the kinds of scribal errors found in the text -- not the sorts of things that would occur in the process envisioned by Burrows.
        Message 3 of 13 , Jul 1, 2011
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          See Jack Kilmon's posting on the kinds of scribal errors found in the text --
          not the sorts of things that would occur in the process envisioned by Burrows.

          However, if you look at the context and date of Burrows's discussion, you'll see
          that he was speculating about the differences between the Isaiah Scroll's
          orthography and the MT, writing long before the texts exemplifying the various
          orthographic traditions had even been published, let alone analyzed.
           --
          Peter T. Daniels grammatim@...
          Jersey City


          >
          >From: Tom Verenna <tsverenna@...>
          >To: "ANE-2@yahoogroups.com" <ANE-2@yahoogroups.com>
          >Sent: Fri, July 1, 2011 3:02:54 PM
          >Subject: Re: [ANE-2] 1QIsa[a]
          >

          >One has to wonder how anyone can determine that...
          >
          >Thomas Verenna
          >Philadelphia, PA
          >
          >Sent from my iPhone
          >
          >On Jul 1, 2011, at 12:15 PM, Stephen Goranson <goranson@...> wrote:
          >
          >> Millar Burrows, The Dead Sea Scrolls (1955) page 114:
          >> "He may have been writing from dictation or even from memory."
          >>
          >> Stephen Goranson
          >> http://www.duke.edu/~goranson
          >>
          >>
          >> ________________________________
          >> From: ANE-2@yahoogroups.com [ANE-2@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of Petr Tomasek
          >>[tomasek@...]
          >> Sent: Friday, July 01, 2011 11:29 AM
          >> To: ane-2@yahoogroups.com
          >> Subject: [ANE-2] 1QIsa[a]
          >>
          >>
          >>
          >> Hello!
          >>
          >> Can someone from the Qumran experts, please, confirm or falsify me
          >> my feeling that someone suggested a hypothesis that 1QIsa[a]
          >> was not copyied from another scroll, but written from memory?
          >>
          >> If so, would You, please, point me to the appropriate sources?
          >>
          >> Thank You very much,
          >>
          >> Petr Tomášek,
          >> PhD student,
          >> The Protestant Theological Faculty,
          >> Charles University, Prague
          >>
          >> --
          >> Petr Tomasek <http://www.etf.cuni.cz/~tomasek>
          >> Jabber: butrus@...:butrus%40jabbim.cz

          [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
        • Tom Verenna
          I m aware of copy errors as they are quite easy to prove within a text. However I am not sure I am persuaded that one can argue that a whole document is
          Message 4 of 13 , Jul 2, 2011
          • 0 Attachment
            I'm aware of copy errors as they are quite easy to prove within a text. However I am not sure I am persuaded that one can argue that a whole document is produced from memory. Perhaps one might argue that a text might be 'contaminated' by memory inclinations, whence through the process of copying a text over an over might produce. Like when a student, who light copy a quote from a poet, might stop looking at the text he is copying and include the line or verse from memory, perhaps slightly skewing it. But can one adequately argue for memory? I think that one would be hardpressed to argue convincingly that particular case. But then again, I am just waking up, and have not yet had a cup of coffee, so perhaps I am not yet alert enough to grasp the argument.

            Thomas Verenna
            Philadelphia, PA

            Sent from my iPhone

            On Jul 1, 2011, at 4:37 PM, George F Somsel <gfsomsel@...> wrote:

            > In the NT it is common to see errors which are either generated by errors of the
            > eye or errors of hearing. One might skip a line because there is another line
            > with the same ending (homoioteuleuton) or even repeat a line. On the other hand
            > when the vowels began to iticize, i.e., coalesce into an "i" sound. Thus there
            > are clues to what the cause might be for an an error, but evidence isn't always
            > present. If one finds a passage which is similar in some respects to another,
            > one might find some elements introduced from the other passage which would then
            > indicate an error of memory.
            > george
            > gfsomsel
            >
            > … search for truth, hear truth,
            > learn truth, love truth, speak the truth, hold the truth,
            > defend the truth till death.
            >
            > - Jan Hus
            > _________
            >
            > ________________________________
            > From: Tom Verenna <tsverenna@...>
            > To: "ANE-2@yahoogroups.com" <ANE-2@yahoogroups.com>
            > Sent: Fri, July 1, 2011 12:02:54 PM
            > Subject: Re: [ANE-2] 1QIsa[a]
            >
            >
            > One has to wonder how anyone can determine that...
            >
            > Thomas Verenna
            > Philadelphia, PA
            >
            > Sent from my iPhone
            >
            > On Jul 1, 2011, at 12:15 PM, Stephen Goranson <goranson@...> wrote:
            >
            > > Millar Burrows, The Dead Sea Scrolls (1955) page 114:
            > > "He may have been writing from dictation or even from memory."
            > >
            > > Stephen Goranson
            > > http://www.duke.edu/~goranson
            > >
            > >
            > > ________________________________
            > > From: ANE-2@yahoogroups.com [ANE-2@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of Petr Tomasek
            > >[tomasek@...]
            > > Sent: Friday, July 01, 2011 11:29 AM
            > > To: ane-2@yahoogroups.com
            > > Subject: [ANE-2] 1QIsa[a]
            > >
            > >
            > >
            > > Hello!
            > >
            > > Can someone from the Qumran experts, please, confirm or falsify me
            > > my feeling that someone suggested a hypothesis that 1QIsa[a]
            > > was not copyied from another scroll, but written from memory?
            > >
            > > If so, would You, please, point me to the appropriate sources?
            > >
            > > Thank You very much,
            > >
            > > Petr Tomášek,
            > > PhD student,
            > > The Protestant Theological Faculty,
            > > Charles University, Prague
            > >
            > > --
            > > Petr Tomasek <http://www.etf.cuni.cz/~tomasek>
            > > Jabber: butrus@...<mailto:butrus%40jabbim.cz>
            > >
            > > ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
            > > EA 355:001 DU DU DU DU
            > > EA 355:002 TU TU TU TU
            > > EA 355:003 NU NU NU NU NU NU NU
            > > EA 355:004 NA NA NA NA NA
            > > ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
            > >
            > >
            > >
            > >
            > >
            > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
            > >
            > >
            > >
            > > ------------------------------------
            > >
            > > Yahoo! Groups Links
            > >
            > >
            > >
            >
            > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
            >
            >


            [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
          • Jack Kilmon
            Good morning, Tom: I am just finishing my first cup of Jamaican Blue Mountain. I agree with you. Having just finished reading each column of the scroll,
            Message 5 of 13 , Jul 2, 2011
            • 0 Attachment
              Good morning, Tom:
              I am just finishing my first cup of Jamaican Blue Mountain. I agree with
              you. Having just finished reading each column of the scroll, except for
              errors of omission and repetition, 1QIsa(a) is "dead on" to the later
              Masoretic text. Although one of the Isaiah scrolls may have been an
              "exercise" and perhaps from memory, the Great Scroll was
              penned...er...reeded...for use and halakha would have forbidden using
              memory. A "memory scroll" would not be such an accurate proto-Masoretic
              example as is this one. The reproduction I am making is actually a
              reconstruction designed to look exactly as the scroll looked when the scribe
              wrote his last letter, so there will be no lacunae. Reconstructing the text
              in the lacunae falls perfectly in line with the MT. This is important to me
              since sheepskins are not cheap. This scroll, the original, not mine, was
              definitely not written from memory. There are marginal notes from editors
              for some of the parablepsy and some were missed by the editor(s).

              Jack Kilmon

              -----Original Message-----
              From: Tom Verenna
              Sent: Saturday, July 02, 2011 7:56 AM
              To: ANE-2@yahoogroups.com
              Subject: Re: [ANE-2] 1QIsa[a]

              I'm aware of copy errors as they are quite easy to prove within a text.
              However I am not sure I am persuaded that one can argue that a whole
              document is produced from memory. Perhaps one might argue that a text might
              be 'contaminated' by memory inclinations, whence through the process of
              copying a text over an over might produce. Like when a student, who light
              copy a quote from a poet, might stop looking at the text he is copying and
              include the line or verse from memory, perhaps slightly skewing it. But can
              one adequately argue for memory? I think that one would be hardpressed to
              argue convincingly that particular case. But then again, I am just waking
              up, and have not yet had a cup of coffee, so perhaps I am not yet alert
              enough to grasp the argument.

              Thomas Verenna
              Philadelphia, PA

              Sent from my iPhone

              On Jul 1, 2011, at 4:37 PM, George F Somsel <gfsomsel@...> wrote:

              > In the NT it is common to see errors which are either generated by errors
              > of the
              > eye or errors of hearing. One might skip a line because there is another
              > line
              > with the same ending (homoioteuleuton) or even repeat a line. On the
              > other hand
              > when the vowels began to iticize, i.e., coalesce into an "i" sound. Thus
              > there
              > are clues to what the cause might be for an an error, but evidence isn't
              > always
              > present. If one finds a passage which is similar in some respects to
              > another,
              > one might find some elements introduced from the other passage which would
              > then
              > indicate an error of memory.
              > george
              > gfsomsel
              >
              > … search for truth, hear truth,
              > learn truth, love truth, speak the truth, hold the truth,
              > defend the truth till death.
              >
              > - Jan Hus
              > _________
              >
              > ________________________________
              > From: Tom Verenna <tsverenna@...>
              > To: "ANE-2@yahoogroups.com" <ANE-2@yahoogroups.com>
              > Sent: Fri, July 1, 2011 12:02:54 PM
              > Subject: Re: [ANE-2] 1QIsa[a]
              >
              >
              > One has to wonder how anyone can determine that...
              >
              > Thomas Verenna
              > Philadelphia, PA
              >
              > Sent from my iPhone
              >
              > On Jul 1, 2011, at 12:15 PM, Stephen Goranson <goranson@...> wrote:
              >
              > > Millar Burrows, The Dead Sea Scrolls (1955) page 114:
              > > "He may have been writing from dictation or even from memory."
              > >
              > > Stephen Goranson
              > > http://www.duke.edu/~goranson
              > >
              > >
              > > ________________________________
              > > From: ANE-2@yahoogroups.com [ANE-2@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of Petr
              > > Tomasek
              > >[tomasek@...]
              > > Sent: Friday, July 01, 2011 11:29 AM
              > > To: ane-2@yahoogroups.com
              > > Subject: [ANE-2] 1QIsa[a]
              > >
              > >
              > >
              > > Hello!
              > >
              > > Can someone from the Qumran experts, please, confirm or falsify me
              > > my feeling that someone suggested a hypothesis that 1QIsa[a]
              > > was not copyied from another scroll, but written from memory?
              > >
              > > If so, would You, please, point me to the appropriate sources?
              > >
              > > Thank You very much,
              > >
              > > Petr Tomášek,
              > > PhD student,
              > > The Protestant Theological Faculty,
              > > Charles University, Prague
              > >
              > > --
              > > Petr Tomasek <http://www.etf.cuni.cz/~tomasek>
              > > Jabber: butrus@...<mailto:butrus%40jabbim.cz>
              > >
              > > ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
              > > EA 355:001 DU DU DU DU
              > > EA 355:002 TU TU TU TU
              > > EA 355:003 NU NU NU NU NU NU NU
              > > EA 355:004 NA NA NA NA NA
              > > ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
              > >
              > >
              > >
              > >
              > >
              > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
              > >
              > >
              > >
              > > ------------------------------------
              > >
              > > Yahoo! Groups Links
              > >
              > >
              > >
              >
              > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
              >
              >


              [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]



              ------------------------------------

              Yahoo! Groups Links
            • Jack Kilmon
              Hi Victor: By “dead on” I did not mean letter for letter Masoretic style. There were no Masoretic texts of any Biblical Texts in the 2nd century BCE. I
              Message 6 of 13 , Jul 3, 2011
              • 0 Attachment
                Hi Victor:

                By “dead on” I did not mean letter for letter Masoretic style. There were no Masoretic texts of any Biblical Texts in the 2nd century BCE. I am talking about translational differences between the DSS scribe’s Aramaized Hebrew and use of matres lectionis at a time when there was no such thing as pointing or Masoretic texts. These are the orthographic differences of which you speak in a text that is absolutely astonishing, IMO, for its harmony to the Ben Asher and Ben Hayyim texts which also show primarily differences resulting from usage of matres and only three translation differences. Otherwise to call 1QIsa(a) a MT would be silly. They are separated by twelve centuries. There are a few interpretive differences. I think the scribe did use an exemplar text, made some mistakes of parablepsy which he himself as well as later editors corrected. That 1QIsa(a) was used as an exemplar for 1QIsa(b) is the best evidence for the praxis. For my own purposes I see nothing that will alter the manner I will reconstruct lacunae in the reconstruction.

                Jack

                Jack Kilmon

                From: Victor Hurowitz
                Sent: Sunday, July 03, 2011 6:57 AM
                To: ANE-2@yahoogroups.com
                Cc: 'Jack Kilmon'
                Subject: RE: [ANE-2] 1QIsa[a]

                How can you say the scroll is "dead on" to the MT? There are hundreds of orthographic differences which were studied years ago by Y. Kutscher and shown to be essentially "cribs" making the scroll readable to someone who spoke a later dialect of Hebrew. You are right that the scroll couldn't have been written from memory, but it wasn't simply copied out from an earlier version either. It was revised in the process of copying. It's basic text is of the MT variety, but it itself is hardly MT.

                Victor Hurowitz



                From: ANE-2@yahoogroups.com [mailto:ANE-2@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of Jack Kilmon
                Sent: Saturday, July 02, 2011 5:56 PM
                To: ANE-2@yahoogroups.com
                Subject: Re: [ANE-2] 1QIsa[a]





                Good morning, Tom:
                I am just finishing my first cup of Jamaican Blue Mountain. I agree with
                you. Having just finished reading each column of the scroll, except for
                errors of omission and repetition, 1QIsa(a) is "dead on" to the later
                Masoretic text. Although one of the Isaiah scrolls may have been an
                "exercise" and perhaps from memory, the Great Scroll was
                penned...er...reeded...for use and halakha would have forbidden using
                memory. A "memory scroll" would not be such an accurate proto-Masoretic
                example as is this one. The reproduction I am making is actually a
                reconstruction designed to look exactly as the scroll looked when the scribe
                wrote his last letter, so there will be no lacunae. Reconstructing the text
                in the lacunae falls perfectly in line with the MT. This is important to me
                since sheepskins are not cheap. This scroll, the original, not mine, was
                definitely not written from memory. There are marginal notes from editors
                for some of the parablepsy and some were missed by the editor(s).

                Jack Kilmon

                -----Original Message-----
                From: Tom Verenna
                Sent: Saturday, July 02, 2011 7:56 AM
                To: mailto:ANE-2%40yahoogroups.com
                Subject: Re: [ANE-2] 1QIsa[a]

                I'm aware of copy errors as they are quite easy to prove within a text.
                However I am not sure I am persuaded that one can argue that a whole
                document is produced from memory. Perhaps one might argue that a text might
                be 'contaminated' by memory inclinations, whence through the process of
                copying a text over an over might produce. Like when a student, who light
                copy a quote from a poet, might stop looking at the text he is copying and
                include the line or verse from memory, perhaps slightly skewing it. But can
                one adequately argue for memory? I think that one would be hardpressed to
                argue convincingly that particular case. But then again, I am just waking
                up, and have not yet had a cup of coffee, so perhaps I am not yet alert
                enough to grasp the argument.

                Thomas Verenna
                Philadelphia, PA

                Sent from my iPhone

                On Jul 1, 2011, at 4:37 PM, George F Somsel <mailto:gfsomsel%40yahoo.com> wrote:

                > In the NT it is common to see errors which are either generated by errors
                > of the
                > eye or errors of hearing. One might skip a line because there is another
                > line
                > with the same ending (homoioteuleuton) or even repeat a line. On the
                > other hand
                > when the vowels began to iticize, i.e., coalesce into an "i" sound. Thus
                > there
                > are clues to what the cause might be for an an error, but evidence isn't
                > always
                > present. If one finds a passage which is similar in some respects to
                > another,
                > one might find some elements introduced from the other passage which would
                > then
                > indicate an error of memory.
                > george
                > gfsomsel
                >
                > … search for truth, hear truth,
                > learn truth, love truth, speak the truth, hold the truth,
                > defend the truth till death.
                >
                > - Jan Hus
                > _________
                >
                > ________________________________
                > From: Tom Verenna <mailto:tsverenna%40gmail.com>
                > To: "mailto:ANE-2%40yahoogroups.com" <mailto:ANE-2%40yahoogroups.com>
                > Sent: Fri, July 1, 2011 12:02:54 PM
                > Subject: Re: [ANE-2] 1QIsa[a]
                >
                >
                > One has to wonder how anyone can determine that...
                >
                > Thomas Verenna
                > Philadelphia, PA
                >
                > Sent from my iPhone
                >
                > On Jul 1, 2011, at 12:15 PM, Stephen Goranson <mailto:goranson%40duke.edu> wrote:
                >
                > > Millar Burrows, The Dead Sea Scrolls (1955) page 114:
                > > "He may have been writing from dictation or even from memory."
                > >
                > > Stephen Goranson
                > > http://www.duke.edu/~goranson
                > >
                > >
                > > ________________________________
                > > From: mailto:ANE-2%40yahoogroups.com [mailto:ANE-2%40yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of Petr
                > > Tomasek
                > >[mailto:tomasek%40etf.cuni.cz]
                > > Sent: Friday, July 01, 2011 11:29 AM
                > > To: mailto:ane-2%40yahoogroups.com
                > > Subject: [ANE-2] 1QIsa[a]
                > >
                > >
                > >
                > > Hello!
                > >
                > > Can someone from the Qumran experts, please, confirm or falsify me
                > > my feeling that someone suggested a hypothesis that 1QIsa[a]
                > > was not copyied from another scroll, but written from memory?
                > >
                > > If so, would You, please, point me to the appropriate sources?
                > >
                > > Thank You very much,
                > >
                > > Petr Tomášek,
                > > PhD student,
                > > The Protestant Theological Faculty,
                > > Charles University, Prague
                > >
                > > --
                > > Petr Tomasek <http://www.etf.cuni.cz/~tomasek>
                > > Jabber: mailto:butrus%40jabbim.cz<mailto:butrus%40jabbim.cz>
                > >
                > > ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
                > > EA 355:001 DU DU DU DU
                > > EA 355:002 TU TU TU TU
                > > EA 355:003 NU NU NU NU NU NU NU
                > > EA 355:004 NA NA NA NA NA
                > > ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
                > >
                > >
                > >
                > >
                > >
                > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                > >
                > >
                > >
                > > ------------------------------------
                > >
                > > Yahoo! Groups Links
                > >
                > >
                > >
                >
                > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                >
                >

                [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

                ------------------------------------

                Yahoo! Groups Links




                [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
              • Brian Colless
                This thread has caused me to recall sitting in a Mishnaic Hebrew class at Sydney University more than 50 years ago. The teacher was Rabbi Israel Por(r)ush, I
                Message 7 of 13 , Jul 3, 2011
                • 0 Attachment
                  This thread has caused me to recall sitting in a Mishnaic Hebrew class
                  at Sydney University more than 50 years ago.

                  The teacher was Rabbi Israel Por(r)ush, I had been in a Latin class
                  with his daughter Naomi, 5 years before that, and I always envied her
                  sitting in the library doing Hebrew exercises (teacher was ECB
                  Maclauren) with the Brown, Driver, and Briggs lexicon open in front of
                  her. When I started as a language teacher in a secondary school I was
                  finally able to attend Hebrew courses in the late afternoon.

                  On one occasion my Rabbi was asked a question about the text of the
                  DSS and MT; he paused, and remained silent for a while, then said he
                  was running through the first page of Isaiah in both texts, comparing
                  them.

                  I never found out whether he had actually memorized the whole book of
                  Yesha`yahu in those two editions.

                  Brian Colless
                  Massey University, NZ

                  From: Victor Hurowitz
                  Sent: Sunday, July 03, 2011 6:57 AM
                  To: ANE-2@yahoogroups.com
                  Cc: 'Jack Kilmon'
                  Subject: RE: [ANE-2] 1QIsa[a]

                  How can you say the scroll is "dead on" to the MT? There are hundreds
                  of orthographic differences which were studied years ago by Y.
                  Kutscher and shown to be essentially "cribs" making the scroll
                  readable to someone who spoke a later dialect of Hebrew. You are right
                  that the scroll couldn't have been written from memory, but it wasn't
                  simply copied out from an earlier version either. It was revised in
                  the process of copying. It's basic text is of the MT variety, but it
                  itself is hardly MT.

                  Victor Hurowitz
                  On 3/07/2011, at 2:55 AM, Jack Kilmon wrote:

                  > Good morning, Tom:
                  > I am just finishing my first cup of Jamaican Blue Mountain. I agree
                  > with
                  > you. Having just finished reading each column of the scroll, except
                  > for
                  > errors of omission and repetition, 1QIsa(a) is "dead on" to the later
                  > Masoretic text. Although one of the Isaiah scrolls may have been an
                  > "exercise" and perhaps from memory, the Great Scroll was
                  > penned...er...reeded...for use and halakha would have forbidden using
                  > memory. A "memory scroll" would not be such an accurate proto-
                  > Masoretic
                  > example as is this one. The reproduction I am making is actually a
                  > reconstruction designed to look exactly as the scroll looked when
                  > the scribe
                  > wrote his last letter, so there will be no lacunae. Reconstructing
                  > the text
                  > in the lacunae falls perfectly in line with the MT. This is
                  > important to me
                  > since sheepskins are not cheap. This scroll, the original, not mine,
                  > was
                  > definitely not written from memory. There are marginal notes from
                  > editors
                  > for some of the parablepsy and some were missed by the editor(s).
                  >
                  > Jack Kilmon
                  >
                  > -----Original Message-----
                  > From: Tom Verenna
                  > Sent: Saturday, July 02, 2011 7:56 AM
                  > To: ANE-2@yahoogroups.com
                  > Subject: Re: [ANE-2] 1QIsa[a]
                  >
                  > I'm aware of copy errors as they are quite easy to prove within a
                  > text.
                  > However I am not sure I am persuaded that one can argue that a whole
                  > document is produced from memory. Perhaps one might argue that a
                  > text might
                  > be 'contaminated' by memory inclinations, whence through the process
                  > of
                  > copying a text over an over might produce. Like when a student, who
                  > light
                  > copy a quote from a poet, might stop looking at the text he is
                  > copying and
                  > include the line or verse from memory, perhaps slightly skewing it.
                  > But can
                  > one adequately argue for memory? I think that one would be
                  > hardpressed to
                  > argue convincingly that particular case. But then again, I am just
                  > waking
                  > up, and have not yet had a cup of coffee, so perhaps I am not yet
                  > alert
                  > enough to grasp the argument.
                  >
                  > Thomas Verenna
                  > Philadelphia, PA
                  >
                  > Sent from my iPhone
                  >
                  > On Jul 1, 2011, at 4:37 PM, George F Somsel <gfsomsel@...>
                  > wrote:
                  >
                  > > In the NT it is common to see errors which are either generated by
                  > errors
                  > > of the
                  > > eye or errors of hearing. One might skip a line because there is
                  > another
                  > > line
                  > > with the same ending (homoioteuleuton) or even repeat a line. On the
                  > > other hand
                  > > when the vowels began to iticize, i.e., coalesce into an "i"
                  > sound. Thus
                  > > there
                  > > are clues to what the cause might be for an an error, but evidence
                  > isn't
                  > > always
                  > > present. If one finds a passage which is similar in some respects to
                  > > another,
                  > > one might find some elements introduced from the other passage
                  > which would
                  > > then
                  > > indicate an error of memory.
                  > > george
                  > > gfsomsel
                  > >
                  > > � search for truth, hear truth,
                  > > learn truth, love truth, speak the truth, hold the truth,
                  > > defend the truth till death.
                  > >
                  > > - Jan Hus
                  > > _________
                  > >
                  > > ________________________________
                  > > From: Tom Verenna <tsverenna@...>
                  > > To: "ANE-2@yahoogroups.com" <ANE-2@yahoogroups.com>
                  > > Sent: Fri, July 1, 2011 12:02:54 PM
                  > > Subject: Re: [ANE-2] 1QIsa[a]
                  > >
                  > >
                  > > One has to wonder how anyone can determine that...
                  > >
                  > > Thomas Verenna
                  > > Philadelphia, PA
                  > >
                  > > Sent from my iPhone
                  > >
                  > > On Jul 1, 2011, at 12:15 PM, Stephen Goranson <goranson@...>
                  > wrote:
                  > >
                  > > > Millar Burrows, The Dead Sea Scrolls (1955) page 114:
                  > > > "He may have been writing from dictation or even from memory."
                  > > >
                  > > > Stephen Goranson
                  > > > http://www.duke.edu/~goranson
                  > > >
                  > > >
                  > > > ________________________________
                  > > > From: ANE-2@yahoogroups.com [ANE-2@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of
                  > Petr
                  > > > Tomasek
                  > > >[tomasek@...]
                  > > > Sent: Friday, July 01, 2011 11:29 AM
                  > > > To: ane-2@yahoogroups.com
                  > > > Subject: [ANE-2] 1QIsa[a]
                  > > >
                  > > >
                  > > >
                  > > > Hello!
                  > > >
                  > > > Can someone from the Qumran experts, please, confirm or falsify me
                  > > > my feeling that someone suggested a hypothesis that 1QIsa[a]
                  > > > was not copyied from another scroll, but written from memory?
                  > > >
                  > > > If so, would You, please, point me to the appropriate sources?
                  > > >
                  > > > Thank You very much,
                  > > >
                  > > > Petr Tom��ek,
                  > > > PhD student,
                  > > > The Protestant Theological Faculty,
                  > > > Charles University, Prague
                  > > >
                  > > > --
                  > > > Petr Tomasek <http://www.etf.cuni.cz/~tomasek>
                  > > > Jabber: butrus@...<mailto:butrus%40jabbim.cz>
                  > > >
                  > > > ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
                  > > > EA 355:001 DU DU DU DU
                  > > > EA 355:002 TU TU TU TU
                  > > > EA 355:003 NU NU NU NU NU NU NU
                  > > > EA 355:004 NA NA NA NA NA
                  > > > ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
                  > > >
                  > > >
                  > > >
                  > > >
                  > > >
                  > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                  > > >
                  > > >
                  > > >
                  > > > ------------------------------------
                  > > >
                  > > > Yahoo! Groups Links
                  > > >
                  > > >
                  > > >
                  > >
                  > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                  > >
                  > >
                  >
                  > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                  >
                  > ------------------------------------
                  >
                  > Yahoo! Groups Links
                  >
                  >
                  >



                  [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                • victor avigdor hurowitz
                  The first chapter in the book of Isaiah is the haftarah for the Shabbat before 9th Av and many people have it memorized, perhaps because it is chanted
                  Message 8 of 13 , Jul 4, 2011
                  • 0 Attachment
                    The first chapter in the book of Isaiah is the haftarah for the Shabbat
                    before 9th Av and many people have it memorized, perhaps because it is
                    chanted customarily following the cantillation of the Scroll of
                    Lamentations, so it's no real big trick to look at the first column of
                    1QIs(a) while you're chanting MT Isaiah and noting differences. And
                    someone who had already committed MT to memory shouldn't have too much
                    trouble remembering the variants in the Scroll.
                    Victor Hurowitz
                    BGU




                    On Mon, 4 Jul 2011, Brian Colless wrote:

                    > This thread has caused me to recall sitting in a Mishnaic Hebrew class
                    > at Sydney University more than 50 years ago.
                    >
                    > The teacher was Rabbi Israel Por(r)ush, I had been in a Latin class
                    > with his daughter Naomi, 5 years before that, and I always envied her
                    > sitting in the library doing Hebrew exercises (teacher was ECB
                    > Maclauren) with the Brown, Driver, and Briggs lexicon open in front of
                    > her. When I started as a language teacher in a secondary school I was
                    > finally able to attend Hebrew courses in the late afternoon.
                    >
                    > On one occasion my Rabbi was asked a question about the text of the
                    > DSS and MT; he paused, and remained silent for a while, then said he
                    > was running through the first page of Isaiah in both texts, comparing
                    > them.
                    >
                    > I never found out whether he had actually memorized the whole book of
                    > Yesha`yahu in those two editions.
                    >
                    > Brian Colless
                    > Massey University, NZ
                    >
                    > From: Victor Hurowitz
                    > Sent: Sunday, July 03, 2011 6:57 AM
                    > To: ANE-2@yahoogroups.com
                    > Cc: 'Jack Kilmon'
                    > Subject: RE: [ANE-2] 1QIsa[a]
                    >
                    > How can you say the scroll is "dead on" to the MT? There are hundreds
                    > of orthographic differences which were studied years ago by Y.
                    > Kutscher and shown to be essentially "cribs" making the scroll
                    > readable to someone who spoke a later dialect of Hebrew. You are right
                    > that the scroll couldn't have been written from memory, but it wasn't
                    > simply copied out from an earlier version either. It was revised in
                    > the process of copying. It's basic text is of the MT variety, but it
                    > itself is hardly MT.
                    >
                    > Victor Hurowitz
                    > On 3/07/2011, at 2:55 AM, Jack Kilmon wrote:
                    >
                    >> Good morning, Tom:
                    >> I am just finishing my first cup of Jamaican Blue Mountain. I agree
                    >> with
                    >> you. Having just finished reading each column of the scroll, except
                    >> for
                    >> errors of omission and repetition, 1QIsa(a) is "dead on" to the later
                    >> Masoretic text. Although one of the Isaiah scrolls may have been an
                    >> "exercise" and perhaps from memory, the Great Scroll was
                    >> penned...er...reeded...for use and halakha would have forbidden using
                    >> memory. A "memory scroll" would not be such an accurate proto-
                    >> Masoretic
                    >> example as is this one. The reproduction I am making is actually a
                    >> reconstruction designed to look exactly as the scroll looked when
                    >> the scribe
                    >> wrote his last letter, so there will be no lacunae. Reconstructing
                    >> the text
                    >> in the lacunae falls perfectly in line with the MT. This is
                    >> important to me
                    >> since sheepskins are not cheap. This scroll, the original, not mine,
                    >> was
                    >> definitely not written from memory. There are marginal notes from
                    >> editors
                    >> for some of the parablepsy and some were missed by the editor(s).
                    >>
                    >> Jack Kilmon
                    >>
                    >> -----Original Message-----
                    >> From: Tom Verenna
                    >> Sent: Saturday, July 02, 2011 7:56 AM
                    >> To: ANE-2@yahoogroups.com
                    >> Subject: Re: [ANE-2] 1QIsa[a]
                    >>
                    >> I'm aware of copy errors as they are quite easy to prove within a
                    >> text.
                    >> However I am not sure I am persuaded that one can argue that a whole
                    >> document is produced from memory. Perhaps one might argue that a
                    >> text might
                    >> be 'contaminated' by memory inclinations, whence through the process
                    >> of
                    >> copying a text over an over might produce. Like when a student, who
                    >> light
                    >> copy a quote from a poet, might stop looking at the text he is
                    >> copying and
                    >> include the line or verse from memory, perhaps slightly skewing it.
                    >> But can
                    >> one adequately argue for memory? I think that one would be
                    >> hardpressed to
                    >> argue convincingly that particular case. But then again, I am just
                    >> waking
                    >> up, and have not yet had a cup of coffee, so perhaps I am not yet
                    >> alert
                    >> enough to grasp the argument.
                    >>
                    >> Thomas Verenna
                    >> Philadelphia, PA
                    >>
                    >> Sent from my iPhone
                    >>
                    >> On Jul 1, 2011, at 4:37 PM, George F Somsel <gfsomsel@...>
                    >> wrote:
                    >>
                    >>> In the NT it is common to see errors which are either generated by
                    >> errors
                    >>> of the
                    >>> eye or errors of hearing. One might skip a line because there is
                    >> another
                    >>> line
                    >>> with the same ending (homoioteuleuton) or even repeat a line. On the
                    >>> other hand
                    >>> when the vowels began to iticize, i.e., coalesce into an "i"
                    >> sound. Thus
                    >>> there
                    >>> are clues to what the cause might be for an an error, but evidence
                    >> isn't
                    >>> always
                    >>> present. If one finds a passage which is similar in some respects to
                    >>> another,
                    >>> one might find some elements introduced from the other passage
                    >> which would
                    >>> then
                    >>> indicate an error of memory.
                    >>> george
                    >>> gfsomsel
                    >>>
                    >>> ? search for truth, hear truth,
                    >>> learn truth, love truth, speak the truth, hold the truth,
                    >>> defend the truth till death.
                    >>>
                    >>> - Jan Hus
                    >>> _________
                    >>>
                    >>> ________________________________
                    >>> From: Tom Verenna <tsverenna@...>
                    >>> To: "ANE-2@yahoogroups.com" <ANE-2@yahoogroups.com>
                    >>> Sent: Fri, July 1, 2011 12:02:54 PM
                    >>> Subject: Re: [ANE-2] 1QIsa[a]
                    >>>
                    >>>
                    >>> One has to wonder how anyone can determine that...
                    >>>
                    >>> Thomas Verenna
                    >>> Philadelphia, PA
                    >>>
                    >>> Sent from my iPhone
                    >>>
                    >>> On Jul 1, 2011, at 12:15 PM, Stephen Goranson <goranson@...>
                    >> wrote:
                    >>>
                    >>>> Millar Burrows, The Dead Sea Scrolls (1955) page 114:
                    >>>> "He may have been writing from dictation or even from memory."
                    >>>>
                    >>>> Stephen Goranson
                    >>>> http://www.duke.edu/~goranson
                    >>>>
                    >>>>
                    >>>> ________________________________
                    >>>> From: ANE-2@yahoogroups.com [ANE-2@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of
                    >> Petr
                    >>>> Tomasek
                    >>>> [tomasek@...]
                    >>>> Sent: Friday, July 01, 2011 11:29 AM
                    >>>> To: ane-2@yahoogroups.com
                    >>>> Subject: [ANE-2] 1QIsa[a]
                    >>>>
                    >>>>
                    >>>>
                    >>>> Hello!
                    >>>>
                    >>>> Can someone from the Qumran experts, please, confirm or falsify me
                    >>>> my feeling that someone suggested a hypothesis that 1QIsa[a]
                    >>>> was not copyied from another scroll, but written from memory?
                    >>>>
                    >>>> If so, would You, please, point me to the appropriate sources?
                    >>>>
                    >>>> Thank You very much,
                    >>>>
                    >>>> Petr Tom�?ek,
                    >>>> PhD student,
                    >>>> The Protestant Theological Faculty,
                    >>>> Charles University, Prague
                    >>>>
                    >>>> --
                    >>>> Petr Tomasek <http://www.etf.cuni.cz/~tomasek>
                    >>>> Jabber: butrus@...<mailto:butrus%40jabbim.cz>
                    >>>>
                    >>>> ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
                    >>>> EA 355:001 DU DU DU DU
                    >>>> EA 355:002 TU TU TU TU
                    >>>> EA 355:003 NU NU NU NU NU NU NU
                    >>>> EA 355:004 NA NA NA NA NA
                    >>>> ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
                    >>>>
                    >>>>
                    >>>>
                    >>>>
                    >>>>
                    >>>> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                    >>>>
                    >>>>
                    >>>>
                    >>>> ------------------------------------
                    >>>>
                    >>>> Yahoo! Groups Links
                    >>>>
                    >>>>
                    >>>>
                    >>>
                    >>> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                    >>>
                    >>>
                    >>
                    >> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                    >>
                    >> ------------------------------------
                    >>
                    >> Yahoo! Groups Links
                    >>
                    >>
                    >>
                    >
                    >
                    >
                    > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                    >
                    >
                    >
                    > ------------------------------------
                    >
                    > Yahoo! Groups Links
                    >
                    >
                    >
                    >

                    [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                  • victor avigdor hurowitz
                    Dear ANE, Ever since ANE went to YAHOO I have not been able to communicate by using Microsoft Office Outlook. For some reason my address is rejected. Yesterday
                    Message 9 of 13 , Jul 4, 2011
                    • 0 Attachment
                      Dear ANE,
                      Ever since ANE went to YAHOO I have not been able to communicate by using
                      Microsoft Office Outlook. For some reason my address is rejected.
                      Yesterday I finally tried to register again and I was successful in
                      sending one letter to ANE. Today, a few minutes ago I tried again by
                      replying to Brian Colless, but again I was rejected.
                      I am writing at this very moment on the old Telnet program which is how I
                      always used to communicate with ANE. What must I do to register again with
                      the YAHOO?
                      Thanks,
                      Victor Hurowitz
                      ANE
                    • Robert M Whiting
                      ... Dear Victor (and others with similar problems), By rejected, I presume you mean that yahoo sends you a message saying you must be a member to post messages
                      Message 10 of 13 , Jul 4, 2011
                      • 0 Attachment
                        On Mon, 4 Jul 2011, victor avigdor hurowitz wrote:

                        > Dear ANE,
                        > Ever since ANE went to YAHOO I have not been able to communicate by using
                        > Microsoft Office Outlook. For some reason my address is rejected.
                        > Yesterday I finally tried to register again and I was successful in
                        > sending one letter to ANE. Today, a few minutes ago I tried again by
                        > replying to Brian Colless, but again I was rejected.
                        > I am writing at this very moment on the old Telnet program which is how I
                        > always used to communicate with ANE. What must I do to register again with
                        > the YAHOO?

                        Dear Victor (and others with similar problems),

                        By rejected, I presume you mean that yahoo sends you a message saying you
                        must be a member to post messages to the group. The most common reason
                        for this is that you are trying to post from a address that is not
                        registered with yahoo.

                        To fix this, go to the ANE-2 home page (or any sub-page) and click on the
                        link that says "Edit Membership" near the top of the page (just under the
                        advertising banner). This will take you to a page that contains your
                        optional settings for the group. Under "Step 1." there is a section
                        labeled "Email Addresses". Make sure that all the addresses that you may
                        want to post from are included. If not, click on the link that says "Add
                        new email address" and then add any additional email addresses. Once the
                        email address is registered, you should be able to post from it.

                        If this doesn't fix your problem, it may be specific to MSOutlook in which
                        case, since I don't use Outlook, you're on your own.

                        Bob Whiting
                        whiting@...
                      Your message has been successfully submitted and would be delivered to recipients shortly.