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Re: [ANE-2] 1QIsa[a]

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  • Jack Kilmon
    I am preparing to make a reproduction/reconstruction of the entire scroll on sheepskin parchment so I have been studying the hand closely, including that of
    Message 1 of 13 , Jul 1, 2011
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      I am preparing to make a reproduction/reconstruction of the entire scroll on
      sheepskin parchment so I have been studying the hand closely, including that
      of the editors. The only errors I have noted are omissions or repetitions
      of text indicative of copying from an exemplar and "losing ones place."

      Jack Kilmon



      -----Original Message-----
      From: Stephen Goranson
      Sent: Friday, July 01, 2011 11:15 AM
      To: ANE-2@yahoogroups.com
      Subject: RE: [ANE-2] 1QIsa[a]

      Millar Burrows, The Dead Sea Scrolls (1955) page 114:
      "He may have been writing from dictation or even from memory."

      Stephen Goranson
      http://www.duke.edu/~goranson


      ________________________________
      From: ANE-2@yahoogroups.com [ANE-2@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of Petr
      Tomasek [tomasek@...]
      Sent: Friday, July 01, 2011 11:29 AM
      To: ane-2@yahoogroups.com
      Subject: [ANE-2] 1QIsa[a]



      Hello!

      Can someone from the Qumran experts, please, confirm or falsify me
      my feeling that someone suggested a hypothesis that 1QIsa[a]
      was not copyied from another scroll, but written from memory?

      If so, would You, please, point me to the appropriate sources?

      Thank You very much,

      Petr Tomášek,
      PhD student,
      The Protestant Theological Faculty,
      Charles University, Prague

      --
      Petr Tomasek <http://www.etf.cuni.cz/~tomasek>
      Jabber: butrus@...<mailto:butrus%40jabbim.cz>

      ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
      EA 355:001 DU DU DU DU
      EA 355:002 TU TU TU TU
      EA 355:003 NU NU NU NU NU NU NU
      EA 355:004 NA NA NA NA NA
      ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~





      [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]



      ------------------------------------

      Yahoo! Groups Links
    • Tom Verenna
      One has to wonder how anyone can determine that... Thomas Verenna Philadelphia, PA Sent from my iPhone
      Message 2 of 13 , Jul 1, 2011
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        One has to wonder how anyone can determine that...

        Thomas Verenna
        Philadelphia, PA

        Sent from my iPhone

        On Jul 1, 2011, at 12:15 PM, Stephen Goranson <goranson@...> wrote:

        > Millar Burrows, The Dead Sea Scrolls (1955) page 114:
        > "He may have been writing from dictation or even from memory."
        >
        > Stephen Goranson
        > http://www.duke.edu/~goranson
        >
        >
        > ________________________________
        > From: ANE-2@yahoogroups.com [ANE-2@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of Petr Tomasek [tomasek@...]
        > Sent: Friday, July 01, 2011 11:29 AM
        > To: ane-2@yahoogroups.com
        > Subject: [ANE-2] 1QIsa[a]
        >
        >
        >
        > Hello!
        >
        > Can someone from the Qumran experts, please, confirm or falsify me
        > my feeling that someone suggested a hypothesis that 1QIsa[a]
        > was not copyied from another scroll, but written from memory?
        >
        > If so, would You, please, point me to the appropriate sources?
        >
        > Thank You very much,
        >
        > Petr Tomášek,
        > PhD student,
        > The Protestant Theological Faculty,
        > Charles University, Prague
        >
        > --
        > Petr Tomasek <http://www.etf.cuni.cz/~tomasek>
        > Jabber: butrus@...<mailto:butrus%40jabbim.cz>
        >
        > ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
        > EA 355:001 DU DU DU DU
        > EA 355:002 TU TU TU TU
        > EA 355:003 NU NU NU NU NU NU NU
        > EA 355:004 NA NA NA NA NA
        > ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
        >
        >
        >
        >
        >
        > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
        >
        >
        >
        > ------------------------------------
        >
        > Yahoo! Groups Links
        >
        >
        >
      • George F Somsel
        In the NT it is common to see errors which are either generated by errors of the eye or errors of hearing.  One might skip a line because there is another
        Message 3 of 13 , Jul 1, 2011
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          In the NT it is common to see errors which are either generated by errors of the
          eye or errors of hearing.  One might skip a line because there is another line
          with the same ending (homoioteuleuton) or even repeat a line.  On the other hand
          when the vowels began to iticize, i.e., coalesce into an "i" sound.  Thus there
          are clues to what the cause might be for an an error, but evidence isn't always
          present.  If one finds a passage which is similar in some respects to another,
          one might find some elements introduced from the other passage which would then
          indicate an error of memory. 
           george
          gfsomsel


          … search for truth, hear truth,
          learn truth, love truth, speak the truth, hold the truth,
          defend the truth till death.


          - Jan Hus
          _________




          ________________________________
          From: Tom Verenna <tsverenna@...>
          To: "ANE-2@yahoogroups.com" <ANE-2@yahoogroups.com>
          Sent: Fri, July 1, 2011 12:02:54 PM
          Subject: Re: [ANE-2] 1QIsa[a]

           
          One has to wonder how anyone can determine that...

          Thomas Verenna
          Philadelphia, PA

          Sent from my iPhone

          On Jul 1, 2011, at 12:15 PM, Stephen Goranson <goranson@...> wrote:

          > Millar Burrows, The Dead Sea Scrolls (1955) page 114:
          > "He may have been writing from dictation or even from memory."
          >
          > Stephen Goranson
          > http://www.duke.edu/~goranson
          >
          >
          > ________________________________
          > From: ANE-2@yahoogroups.com [ANE-2@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of Petr Tomasek
          >[tomasek@...]
          > Sent: Friday, July 01, 2011 11:29 AM
          > To: ane-2@yahoogroups.com
          > Subject: [ANE-2] 1QIsa[a]
          >
          >
          >
          > Hello!
          >
          > Can someone from the Qumran experts, please, confirm or falsify me
          > my feeling that someone suggested a hypothesis that 1QIsa[a]
          > was not copyied from another scroll, but written from memory?
          >
          > If so, would You, please, point me to the appropriate sources?
          >
          > Thank You very much,
          >
          > Petr Tomášek,
          > PhD student,
          > The Protestant Theological Faculty,
          > Charles University, Prague
          >
          > --
          > Petr Tomasek <http://www.etf.cuni.cz/~tomasek>
          > Jabber: butrus@...<mailto:butrus%40jabbim.cz>
          >
          > ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
          > EA 355:001 DU DU DU DU
          > EA 355:002 TU TU TU TU
          > EA 355:003 NU NU NU NU NU NU NU
          > EA 355:004 NA NA NA NA NA
          > ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
          >
          >
          >
          >
          >
          > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
          >
          >
          >
          > ------------------------------------
          >
          > Yahoo! Groups Links
          >
          >
          >



          [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
        • Peter T. Daniels
          See Jack Kilmon s posting on the kinds of scribal errors found in the text -- not the sorts of things that would occur in the process envisioned by Burrows.
          Message 4 of 13 , Jul 1, 2011
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            See Jack Kilmon's posting on the kinds of scribal errors found in the text --
            not the sorts of things that would occur in the process envisioned by Burrows.

            However, if you look at the context and date of Burrows's discussion, you'll see
            that he was speculating about the differences between the Isaiah Scroll's
            orthography and the MT, writing long before the texts exemplifying the various
            orthographic traditions had even been published, let alone analyzed.
             --
            Peter T. Daniels grammatim@...
            Jersey City


            >
            >From: Tom Verenna <tsverenna@...>
            >To: "ANE-2@yahoogroups.com" <ANE-2@yahoogroups.com>
            >Sent: Fri, July 1, 2011 3:02:54 PM
            >Subject: Re: [ANE-2] 1QIsa[a]
            >

            >One has to wonder how anyone can determine that...
            >
            >Thomas Verenna
            >Philadelphia, PA
            >
            >Sent from my iPhone
            >
            >On Jul 1, 2011, at 12:15 PM, Stephen Goranson <goranson@...> wrote:
            >
            >> Millar Burrows, The Dead Sea Scrolls (1955) page 114:
            >> "He may have been writing from dictation or even from memory."
            >>
            >> Stephen Goranson
            >> http://www.duke.edu/~goranson
            >>
            >>
            >> ________________________________
            >> From: ANE-2@yahoogroups.com [ANE-2@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of Petr Tomasek
            >>[tomasek@...]
            >> Sent: Friday, July 01, 2011 11:29 AM
            >> To: ane-2@yahoogroups.com
            >> Subject: [ANE-2] 1QIsa[a]
            >>
            >>
            >>
            >> Hello!
            >>
            >> Can someone from the Qumran experts, please, confirm or falsify me
            >> my feeling that someone suggested a hypothesis that 1QIsa[a]
            >> was not copyied from another scroll, but written from memory?
            >>
            >> If so, would You, please, point me to the appropriate sources?
            >>
            >> Thank You very much,
            >>
            >> Petr Tomášek,
            >> PhD student,
            >> The Protestant Theological Faculty,
            >> Charles University, Prague
            >>
            >> --
            >> Petr Tomasek <http://www.etf.cuni.cz/~tomasek>
            >> Jabber: butrus@...:butrus%40jabbim.cz

            [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
          • Tom Verenna
            I m aware of copy errors as they are quite easy to prove within a text. However I am not sure I am persuaded that one can argue that a whole document is
            Message 5 of 13 , Jul 2, 2011
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              I'm aware of copy errors as they are quite easy to prove within a text. However I am not sure I am persuaded that one can argue that a whole document is produced from memory. Perhaps one might argue that a text might be 'contaminated' by memory inclinations, whence through the process of copying a text over an over might produce. Like when a student, who light copy a quote from a poet, might stop looking at the text he is copying and include the line or verse from memory, perhaps slightly skewing it. But can one adequately argue for memory? I think that one would be hardpressed to argue convincingly that particular case. But then again, I am just waking up, and have not yet had a cup of coffee, so perhaps I am not yet alert enough to grasp the argument.

              Thomas Verenna
              Philadelphia, PA

              Sent from my iPhone

              On Jul 1, 2011, at 4:37 PM, George F Somsel <gfsomsel@...> wrote:

              > In the NT it is common to see errors which are either generated by errors of the
              > eye or errors of hearing. One might skip a line because there is another line
              > with the same ending (homoioteuleuton) or even repeat a line. On the other hand
              > when the vowels began to iticize, i.e., coalesce into an "i" sound. Thus there
              > are clues to what the cause might be for an an error, but evidence isn't always
              > present. If one finds a passage which is similar in some respects to another,
              > one might find some elements introduced from the other passage which would then
              > indicate an error of memory.
              > george
              > gfsomsel
              >
              > … search for truth, hear truth,
              > learn truth, love truth, speak the truth, hold the truth,
              > defend the truth till death.
              >
              > - Jan Hus
              > _________
              >
              > ________________________________
              > From: Tom Verenna <tsverenna@...>
              > To: "ANE-2@yahoogroups.com" <ANE-2@yahoogroups.com>
              > Sent: Fri, July 1, 2011 12:02:54 PM
              > Subject: Re: [ANE-2] 1QIsa[a]
              >
              >
              > One has to wonder how anyone can determine that...
              >
              > Thomas Verenna
              > Philadelphia, PA
              >
              > Sent from my iPhone
              >
              > On Jul 1, 2011, at 12:15 PM, Stephen Goranson <goranson@...> wrote:
              >
              > > Millar Burrows, The Dead Sea Scrolls (1955) page 114:
              > > "He may have been writing from dictation or even from memory."
              > >
              > > Stephen Goranson
              > > http://www.duke.edu/~goranson
              > >
              > >
              > > ________________________________
              > > From: ANE-2@yahoogroups.com [ANE-2@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of Petr Tomasek
              > >[tomasek@...]
              > > Sent: Friday, July 01, 2011 11:29 AM
              > > To: ane-2@yahoogroups.com
              > > Subject: [ANE-2] 1QIsa[a]
              > >
              > >
              > >
              > > Hello!
              > >
              > > Can someone from the Qumran experts, please, confirm or falsify me
              > > my feeling that someone suggested a hypothesis that 1QIsa[a]
              > > was not copyied from another scroll, but written from memory?
              > >
              > > If so, would You, please, point me to the appropriate sources?
              > >
              > > Thank You very much,
              > >
              > > Petr Tomášek,
              > > PhD student,
              > > The Protestant Theological Faculty,
              > > Charles University, Prague
              > >
              > > --
              > > Petr Tomasek <http://www.etf.cuni.cz/~tomasek>
              > > Jabber: butrus@...<mailto:butrus%40jabbim.cz>
              > >
              > > ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
              > > EA 355:001 DU DU DU DU
              > > EA 355:002 TU TU TU TU
              > > EA 355:003 NU NU NU NU NU NU NU
              > > EA 355:004 NA NA NA NA NA
              > > ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
              > >
              > >
              > >
              > >
              > >
              > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
              > >
              > >
              > >
              > > ------------------------------------
              > >
              > > Yahoo! Groups Links
              > >
              > >
              > >
              >
              > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
              >
              >


              [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
            • Jack Kilmon
              Good morning, Tom: I am just finishing my first cup of Jamaican Blue Mountain. I agree with you. Having just finished reading each column of the scroll,
              Message 6 of 13 , Jul 2, 2011
              • 0 Attachment
                Good morning, Tom:
                I am just finishing my first cup of Jamaican Blue Mountain. I agree with
                you. Having just finished reading each column of the scroll, except for
                errors of omission and repetition, 1QIsa(a) is "dead on" to the later
                Masoretic text. Although one of the Isaiah scrolls may have been an
                "exercise" and perhaps from memory, the Great Scroll was
                penned...er...reeded...for use and halakha would have forbidden using
                memory. A "memory scroll" would not be such an accurate proto-Masoretic
                example as is this one. The reproduction I am making is actually a
                reconstruction designed to look exactly as the scroll looked when the scribe
                wrote his last letter, so there will be no lacunae. Reconstructing the text
                in the lacunae falls perfectly in line with the MT. This is important to me
                since sheepskins are not cheap. This scroll, the original, not mine, was
                definitely not written from memory. There are marginal notes from editors
                for some of the parablepsy and some were missed by the editor(s).

                Jack Kilmon

                -----Original Message-----
                From: Tom Verenna
                Sent: Saturday, July 02, 2011 7:56 AM
                To: ANE-2@yahoogroups.com
                Subject: Re: [ANE-2] 1QIsa[a]

                I'm aware of copy errors as they are quite easy to prove within a text.
                However I am not sure I am persuaded that one can argue that a whole
                document is produced from memory. Perhaps one might argue that a text might
                be 'contaminated' by memory inclinations, whence through the process of
                copying a text over an over might produce. Like when a student, who light
                copy a quote from a poet, might stop looking at the text he is copying and
                include the line or verse from memory, perhaps slightly skewing it. But can
                one adequately argue for memory? I think that one would be hardpressed to
                argue convincingly that particular case. But then again, I am just waking
                up, and have not yet had a cup of coffee, so perhaps I am not yet alert
                enough to grasp the argument.

                Thomas Verenna
                Philadelphia, PA

                Sent from my iPhone

                On Jul 1, 2011, at 4:37 PM, George F Somsel <gfsomsel@...> wrote:

                > In the NT it is common to see errors which are either generated by errors
                > of the
                > eye or errors of hearing. One might skip a line because there is another
                > line
                > with the same ending (homoioteuleuton) or even repeat a line. On the
                > other hand
                > when the vowels began to iticize, i.e., coalesce into an "i" sound. Thus
                > there
                > are clues to what the cause might be for an an error, but evidence isn't
                > always
                > present. If one finds a passage which is similar in some respects to
                > another,
                > one might find some elements introduced from the other passage which would
                > then
                > indicate an error of memory.
                > george
                > gfsomsel
                >
                > … search for truth, hear truth,
                > learn truth, love truth, speak the truth, hold the truth,
                > defend the truth till death.
                >
                > - Jan Hus
                > _________
                >
                > ________________________________
                > From: Tom Verenna <tsverenna@...>
                > To: "ANE-2@yahoogroups.com" <ANE-2@yahoogroups.com>
                > Sent: Fri, July 1, 2011 12:02:54 PM
                > Subject: Re: [ANE-2] 1QIsa[a]
                >
                >
                > One has to wonder how anyone can determine that...
                >
                > Thomas Verenna
                > Philadelphia, PA
                >
                > Sent from my iPhone
                >
                > On Jul 1, 2011, at 12:15 PM, Stephen Goranson <goranson@...> wrote:
                >
                > > Millar Burrows, The Dead Sea Scrolls (1955) page 114:
                > > "He may have been writing from dictation or even from memory."
                > >
                > > Stephen Goranson
                > > http://www.duke.edu/~goranson
                > >
                > >
                > > ________________________________
                > > From: ANE-2@yahoogroups.com [ANE-2@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of Petr
                > > Tomasek
                > >[tomasek@...]
                > > Sent: Friday, July 01, 2011 11:29 AM
                > > To: ane-2@yahoogroups.com
                > > Subject: [ANE-2] 1QIsa[a]
                > >
                > >
                > >
                > > Hello!
                > >
                > > Can someone from the Qumran experts, please, confirm or falsify me
                > > my feeling that someone suggested a hypothesis that 1QIsa[a]
                > > was not copyied from another scroll, but written from memory?
                > >
                > > If so, would You, please, point me to the appropriate sources?
                > >
                > > Thank You very much,
                > >
                > > Petr Tomášek,
                > > PhD student,
                > > The Protestant Theological Faculty,
                > > Charles University, Prague
                > >
                > > --
                > > Petr Tomasek <http://www.etf.cuni.cz/~tomasek>
                > > Jabber: butrus@...<mailto:butrus%40jabbim.cz>
                > >
                > > ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
                > > EA 355:001 DU DU DU DU
                > > EA 355:002 TU TU TU TU
                > > EA 355:003 NU NU NU NU NU NU NU
                > > EA 355:004 NA NA NA NA NA
                > > ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
                > >
                > >
                > >
                > >
                > >
                > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                > >
                > >
                > >
                > > ------------------------------------
                > >
                > > Yahoo! Groups Links
                > >
                > >
                > >
                >
                > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                >
                >


                [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]



                ------------------------------------

                Yahoo! Groups Links
              • Jack Kilmon
                Hi Victor: By “dead on” I did not mean letter for letter Masoretic style. There were no Masoretic texts of any Biblical Texts in the 2nd century BCE. I
                Message 7 of 13 , Jul 3, 2011
                • 0 Attachment
                  Hi Victor:

                  By “dead on” I did not mean letter for letter Masoretic style. There were no Masoretic texts of any Biblical Texts in the 2nd century BCE. I am talking about translational differences between the DSS scribe’s Aramaized Hebrew and use of matres lectionis at a time when there was no such thing as pointing or Masoretic texts. These are the orthographic differences of which you speak in a text that is absolutely astonishing, IMO, for its harmony to the Ben Asher and Ben Hayyim texts which also show primarily differences resulting from usage of matres and only three translation differences. Otherwise to call 1QIsa(a) a MT would be silly. They are separated by twelve centuries. There are a few interpretive differences. I think the scribe did use an exemplar text, made some mistakes of parablepsy which he himself as well as later editors corrected. That 1QIsa(a) was used as an exemplar for 1QIsa(b) is the best evidence for the praxis. For my own purposes I see nothing that will alter the manner I will reconstruct lacunae in the reconstruction.

                  Jack

                  Jack Kilmon

                  From: Victor Hurowitz
                  Sent: Sunday, July 03, 2011 6:57 AM
                  To: ANE-2@yahoogroups.com
                  Cc: 'Jack Kilmon'
                  Subject: RE: [ANE-2] 1QIsa[a]

                  How can you say the scroll is "dead on" to the MT? There are hundreds of orthographic differences which were studied years ago by Y. Kutscher and shown to be essentially "cribs" making the scroll readable to someone who spoke a later dialect of Hebrew. You are right that the scroll couldn't have been written from memory, but it wasn't simply copied out from an earlier version either. It was revised in the process of copying. It's basic text is of the MT variety, but it itself is hardly MT.

                  Victor Hurowitz



                  From: ANE-2@yahoogroups.com [mailto:ANE-2@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of Jack Kilmon
                  Sent: Saturday, July 02, 2011 5:56 PM
                  To: ANE-2@yahoogroups.com
                  Subject: Re: [ANE-2] 1QIsa[a]





                  Good morning, Tom:
                  I am just finishing my first cup of Jamaican Blue Mountain. I agree with
                  you. Having just finished reading each column of the scroll, except for
                  errors of omission and repetition, 1QIsa(a) is "dead on" to the later
                  Masoretic text. Although one of the Isaiah scrolls may have been an
                  "exercise" and perhaps from memory, the Great Scroll was
                  penned...er...reeded...for use and halakha would have forbidden using
                  memory. A "memory scroll" would not be such an accurate proto-Masoretic
                  example as is this one. The reproduction I am making is actually a
                  reconstruction designed to look exactly as the scroll looked when the scribe
                  wrote his last letter, so there will be no lacunae. Reconstructing the text
                  in the lacunae falls perfectly in line with the MT. This is important to me
                  since sheepskins are not cheap. This scroll, the original, not mine, was
                  definitely not written from memory. There are marginal notes from editors
                  for some of the parablepsy and some were missed by the editor(s).

                  Jack Kilmon

                  -----Original Message-----
                  From: Tom Verenna
                  Sent: Saturday, July 02, 2011 7:56 AM
                  To: mailto:ANE-2%40yahoogroups.com
                  Subject: Re: [ANE-2] 1QIsa[a]

                  I'm aware of copy errors as they are quite easy to prove within a text.
                  However I am not sure I am persuaded that one can argue that a whole
                  document is produced from memory. Perhaps one might argue that a text might
                  be 'contaminated' by memory inclinations, whence through the process of
                  copying a text over an over might produce. Like when a student, who light
                  copy a quote from a poet, might stop looking at the text he is copying and
                  include the line or verse from memory, perhaps slightly skewing it. But can
                  one adequately argue for memory? I think that one would be hardpressed to
                  argue convincingly that particular case. But then again, I am just waking
                  up, and have not yet had a cup of coffee, so perhaps I am not yet alert
                  enough to grasp the argument.

                  Thomas Verenna
                  Philadelphia, PA

                  Sent from my iPhone

                  On Jul 1, 2011, at 4:37 PM, George F Somsel <mailto:gfsomsel%40yahoo.com> wrote:

                  > In the NT it is common to see errors which are either generated by errors
                  > of the
                  > eye or errors of hearing. One might skip a line because there is another
                  > line
                  > with the same ending (homoioteuleuton) or even repeat a line. On the
                  > other hand
                  > when the vowels began to iticize, i.e., coalesce into an "i" sound. Thus
                  > there
                  > are clues to what the cause might be for an an error, but evidence isn't
                  > always
                  > present. If one finds a passage which is similar in some respects to
                  > another,
                  > one might find some elements introduced from the other passage which would
                  > then
                  > indicate an error of memory.
                  > george
                  > gfsomsel
                  >
                  > … search for truth, hear truth,
                  > learn truth, love truth, speak the truth, hold the truth,
                  > defend the truth till death.
                  >
                  > - Jan Hus
                  > _________
                  >
                  > ________________________________
                  > From: Tom Verenna <mailto:tsverenna%40gmail.com>
                  > To: "mailto:ANE-2%40yahoogroups.com" <mailto:ANE-2%40yahoogroups.com>
                  > Sent: Fri, July 1, 2011 12:02:54 PM
                  > Subject: Re: [ANE-2] 1QIsa[a]
                  >
                  >
                  > One has to wonder how anyone can determine that...
                  >
                  > Thomas Verenna
                  > Philadelphia, PA
                  >
                  > Sent from my iPhone
                  >
                  > On Jul 1, 2011, at 12:15 PM, Stephen Goranson <mailto:goranson%40duke.edu> wrote:
                  >
                  > > Millar Burrows, The Dead Sea Scrolls (1955) page 114:
                  > > "He may have been writing from dictation or even from memory."
                  > >
                  > > Stephen Goranson
                  > > http://www.duke.edu/~goranson
                  > >
                  > >
                  > > ________________________________
                  > > From: mailto:ANE-2%40yahoogroups.com [mailto:ANE-2%40yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of Petr
                  > > Tomasek
                  > >[mailto:tomasek%40etf.cuni.cz]
                  > > Sent: Friday, July 01, 2011 11:29 AM
                  > > To: mailto:ane-2%40yahoogroups.com
                  > > Subject: [ANE-2] 1QIsa[a]
                  > >
                  > >
                  > >
                  > > Hello!
                  > >
                  > > Can someone from the Qumran experts, please, confirm or falsify me
                  > > my feeling that someone suggested a hypothesis that 1QIsa[a]
                  > > was not copyied from another scroll, but written from memory?
                  > >
                  > > If so, would You, please, point me to the appropriate sources?
                  > >
                  > > Thank You very much,
                  > >
                  > > Petr Tomášek,
                  > > PhD student,
                  > > The Protestant Theological Faculty,
                  > > Charles University, Prague
                  > >
                  > > --
                  > > Petr Tomasek <http://www.etf.cuni.cz/~tomasek>
                  > > Jabber: mailto:butrus%40jabbim.cz<mailto:butrus%40jabbim.cz>
                  > >
                  > > ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
                  > > EA 355:001 DU DU DU DU
                  > > EA 355:002 TU TU TU TU
                  > > EA 355:003 NU NU NU NU NU NU NU
                  > > EA 355:004 NA NA NA NA NA
                  > > ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
                  > >
                  > >
                  > >
                  > >
                  > >
                  > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                  > >
                  > >
                  > >
                  > > ------------------------------------
                  > >
                  > > Yahoo! Groups Links
                  > >
                  > >
                  > >
                  >
                  > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                  >
                  >

                  [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

                  ------------------------------------

                  Yahoo! Groups Links




                  [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                • Brian Colless
                  This thread has caused me to recall sitting in a Mishnaic Hebrew class at Sydney University more than 50 years ago. The teacher was Rabbi Israel Por(r)ush, I
                  Message 8 of 13 , Jul 3, 2011
                  • 0 Attachment
                    This thread has caused me to recall sitting in a Mishnaic Hebrew class
                    at Sydney University more than 50 years ago.

                    The teacher was Rabbi Israel Por(r)ush, I had been in a Latin class
                    with his daughter Naomi, 5 years before that, and I always envied her
                    sitting in the library doing Hebrew exercises (teacher was ECB
                    Maclauren) with the Brown, Driver, and Briggs lexicon open in front of
                    her. When I started as a language teacher in a secondary school I was
                    finally able to attend Hebrew courses in the late afternoon.

                    On one occasion my Rabbi was asked a question about the text of the
                    DSS and MT; he paused, and remained silent for a while, then said he
                    was running through the first page of Isaiah in both texts, comparing
                    them.

                    I never found out whether he had actually memorized the whole book of
                    Yesha`yahu in those two editions.

                    Brian Colless
                    Massey University, NZ

                    From: Victor Hurowitz
                    Sent: Sunday, July 03, 2011 6:57 AM
                    To: ANE-2@yahoogroups.com
                    Cc: 'Jack Kilmon'
                    Subject: RE: [ANE-2] 1QIsa[a]

                    How can you say the scroll is "dead on" to the MT? There are hundreds
                    of orthographic differences which were studied years ago by Y.
                    Kutscher and shown to be essentially "cribs" making the scroll
                    readable to someone who spoke a later dialect of Hebrew. You are right
                    that the scroll couldn't have been written from memory, but it wasn't
                    simply copied out from an earlier version either. It was revised in
                    the process of copying. It's basic text is of the MT variety, but it
                    itself is hardly MT.

                    Victor Hurowitz
                    On 3/07/2011, at 2:55 AM, Jack Kilmon wrote:

                    > Good morning, Tom:
                    > I am just finishing my first cup of Jamaican Blue Mountain. I agree
                    > with
                    > you. Having just finished reading each column of the scroll, except
                    > for
                    > errors of omission and repetition, 1QIsa(a) is "dead on" to the later
                    > Masoretic text. Although one of the Isaiah scrolls may have been an
                    > "exercise" and perhaps from memory, the Great Scroll was
                    > penned...er...reeded...for use and halakha would have forbidden using
                    > memory. A "memory scroll" would not be such an accurate proto-
                    > Masoretic
                    > example as is this one. The reproduction I am making is actually a
                    > reconstruction designed to look exactly as the scroll looked when
                    > the scribe
                    > wrote his last letter, so there will be no lacunae. Reconstructing
                    > the text
                    > in the lacunae falls perfectly in line with the MT. This is
                    > important to me
                    > since sheepskins are not cheap. This scroll, the original, not mine,
                    > was
                    > definitely not written from memory. There are marginal notes from
                    > editors
                    > for some of the parablepsy and some were missed by the editor(s).
                    >
                    > Jack Kilmon
                    >
                    > -----Original Message-----
                    > From: Tom Verenna
                    > Sent: Saturday, July 02, 2011 7:56 AM
                    > To: ANE-2@yahoogroups.com
                    > Subject: Re: [ANE-2] 1QIsa[a]
                    >
                    > I'm aware of copy errors as they are quite easy to prove within a
                    > text.
                    > However I am not sure I am persuaded that one can argue that a whole
                    > document is produced from memory. Perhaps one might argue that a
                    > text might
                    > be 'contaminated' by memory inclinations, whence through the process
                    > of
                    > copying a text over an over might produce. Like when a student, who
                    > light
                    > copy a quote from a poet, might stop looking at the text he is
                    > copying and
                    > include the line or verse from memory, perhaps slightly skewing it.
                    > But can
                    > one adequately argue for memory? I think that one would be
                    > hardpressed to
                    > argue convincingly that particular case. But then again, I am just
                    > waking
                    > up, and have not yet had a cup of coffee, so perhaps I am not yet
                    > alert
                    > enough to grasp the argument.
                    >
                    > Thomas Verenna
                    > Philadelphia, PA
                    >
                    > Sent from my iPhone
                    >
                    > On Jul 1, 2011, at 4:37 PM, George F Somsel <gfsomsel@...>
                    > wrote:
                    >
                    > > In the NT it is common to see errors which are either generated by
                    > errors
                    > > of the
                    > > eye or errors of hearing. One might skip a line because there is
                    > another
                    > > line
                    > > with the same ending (homoioteuleuton) or even repeat a line. On the
                    > > other hand
                    > > when the vowels began to iticize, i.e., coalesce into an "i"
                    > sound. Thus
                    > > there
                    > > are clues to what the cause might be for an an error, but evidence
                    > isn't
                    > > always
                    > > present. If one finds a passage which is similar in some respects to
                    > > another,
                    > > one might find some elements introduced from the other passage
                    > which would
                    > > then
                    > > indicate an error of memory.
                    > > george
                    > > gfsomsel
                    > >
                    > > � search for truth, hear truth,
                    > > learn truth, love truth, speak the truth, hold the truth,
                    > > defend the truth till death.
                    > >
                    > > - Jan Hus
                    > > _________
                    > >
                    > > ________________________________
                    > > From: Tom Verenna <tsverenna@...>
                    > > To: "ANE-2@yahoogroups.com" <ANE-2@yahoogroups.com>
                    > > Sent: Fri, July 1, 2011 12:02:54 PM
                    > > Subject: Re: [ANE-2] 1QIsa[a]
                    > >
                    > >
                    > > One has to wonder how anyone can determine that...
                    > >
                    > > Thomas Verenna
                    > > Philadelphia, PA
                    > >
                    > > Sent from my iPhone
                    > >
                    > > On Jul 1, 2011, at 12:15 PM, Stephen Goranson <goranson@...>
                    > wrote:
                    > >
                    > > > Millar Burrows, The Dead Sea Scrolls (1955) page 114:
                    > > > "He may have been writing from dictation or even from memory."
                    > > >
                    > > > Stephen Goranson
                    > > > http://www.duke.edu/~goranson
                    > > >
                    > > >
                    > > > ________________________________
                    > > > From: ANE-2@yahoogroups.com [ANE-2@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of
                    > Petr
                    > > > Tomasek
                    > > >[tomasek@...]
                    > > > Sent: Friday, July 01, 2011 11:29 AM
                    > > > To: ane-2@yahoogroups.com
                    > > > Subject: [ANE-2] 1QIsa[a]
                    > > >
                    > > >
                    > > >
                    > > > Hello!
                    > > >
                    > > > Can someone from the Qumran experts, please, confirm or falsify me
                    > > > my feeling that someone suggested a hypothesis that 1QIsa[a]
                    > > > was not copyied from another scroll, but written from memory?
                    > > >
                    > > > If so, would You, please, point me to the appropriate sources?
                    > > >
                    > > > Thank You very much,
                    > > >
                    > > > Petr Tom��ek,
                    > > > PhD student,
                    > > > The Protestant Theological Faculty,
                    > > > Charles University, Prague
                    > > >
                    > > > --
                    > > > Petr Tomasek <http://www.etf.cuni.cz/~tomasek>
                    > > > Jabber: butrus@...<mailto:butrus%40jabbim.cz>
                    > > >
                    > > > ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
                    > > > EA 355:001 DU DU DU DU
                    > > > EA 355:002 TU TU TU TU
                    > > > EA 355:003 NU NU NU NU NU NU NU
                    > > > EA 355:004 NA NA NA NA NA
                    > > > ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
                    > > >
                    > > >
                    > > >
                    > > >
                    > > >
                    > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                    > > >
                    > > >
                    > > >
                    > > > ------------------------------------
                    > > >
                    > > > Yahoo! Groups Links
                    > > >
                    > > >
                    > > >
                    > >
                    > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                    > >
                    > >
                    >
                    > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                    >
                    > ------------------------------------
                    >
                    > Yahoo! Groups Links
                    >
                    >
                    >



                    [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                  • victor avigdor hurowitz
                    The first chapter in the book of Isaiah is the haftarah for the Shabbat before 9th Av and many people have it memorized, perhaps because it is chanted
                    Message 9 of 13 , Jul 4, 2011
                    • 0 Attachment
                      The first chapter in the book of Isaiah is the haftarah for the Shabbat
                      before 9th Av and many people have it memorized, perhaps because it is
                      chanted customarily following the cantillation of the Scroll of
                      Lamentations, so it's no real big trick to look at the first column of
                      1QIs(a) while you're chanting MT Isaiah and noting differences. And
                      someone who had already committed MT to memory shouldn't have too much
                      trouble remembering the variants in the Scroll.
                      Victor Hurowitz
                      BGU




                      On Mon, 4 Jul 2011, Brian Colless wrote:

                      > This thread has caused me to recall sitting in a Mishnaic Hebrew class
                      > at Sydney University more than 50 years ago.
                      >
                      > The teacher was Rabbi Israel Por(r)ush, I had been in a Latin class
                      > with his daughter Naomi, 5 years before that, and I always envied her
                      > sitting in the library doing Hebrew exercises (teacher was ECB
                      > Maclauren) with the Brown, Driver, and Briggs lexicon open in front of
                      > her. When I started as a language teacher in a secondary school I was
                      > finally able to attend Hebrew courses in the late afternoon.
                      >
                      > On one occasion my Rabbi was asked a question about the text of the
                      > DSS and MT; he paused, and remained silent for a while, then said he
                      > was running through the first page of Isaiah in both texts, comparing
                      > them.
                      >
                      > I never found out whether he had actually memorized the whole book of
                      > Yesha`yahu in those two editions.
                      >
                      > Brian Colless
                      > Massey University, NZ
                      >
                      > From: Victor Hurowitz
                      > Sent: Sunday, July 03, 2011 6:57 AM
                      > To: ANE-2@yahoogroups.com
                      > Cc: 'Jack Kilmon'
                      > Subject: RE: [ANE-2] 1QIsa[a]
                      >
                      > How can you say the scroll is "dead on" to the MT? There are hundreds
                      > of orthographic differences which were studied years ago by Y.
                      > Kutscher and shown to be essentially "cribs" making the scroll
                      > readable to someone who spoke a later dialect of Hebrew. You are right
                      > that the scroll couldn't have been written from memory, but it wasn't
                      > simply copied out from an earlier version either. It was revised in
                      > the process of copying. It's basic text is of the MT variety, but it
                      > itself is hardly MT.
                      >
                      > Victor Hurowitz
                      > On 3/07/2011, at 2:55 AM, Jack Kilmon wrote:
                      >
                      >> Good morning, Tom:
                      >> I am just finishing my first cup of Jamaican Blue Mountain. I agree
                      >> with
                      >> you. Having just finished reading each column of the scroll, except
                      >> for
                      >> errors of omission and repetition, 1QIsa(a) is "dead on" to the later
                      >> Masoretic text. Although one of the Isaiah scrolls may have been an
                      >> "exercise" and perhaps from memory, the Great Scroll was
                      >> penned...er...reeded...for use and halakha would have forbidden using
                      >> memory. A "memory scroll" would not be such an accurate proto-
                      >> Masoretic
                      >> example as is this one. The reproduction I am making is actually a
                      >> reconstruction designed to look exactly as the scroll looked when
                      >> the scribe
                      >> wrote his last letter, so there will be no lacunae. Reconstructing
                      >> the text
                      >> in the lacunae falls perfectly in line with the MT. This is
                      >> important to me
                      >> since sheepskins are not cheap. This scroll, the original, not mine,
                      >> was
                      >> definitely not written from memory. There are marginal notes from
                      >> editors
                      >> for some of the parablepsy and some were missed by the editor(s).
                      >>
                      >> Jack Kilmon
                      >>
                      >> -----Original Message-----
                      >> From: Tom Verenna
                      >> Sent: Saturday, July 02, 2011 7:56 AM
                      >> To: ANE-2@yahoogroups.com
                      >> Subject: Re: [ANE-2] 1QIsa[a]
                      >>
                      >> I'm aware of copy errors as they are quite easy to prove within a
                      >> text.
                      >> However I am not sure I am persuaded that one can argue that a whole
                      >> document is produced from memory. Perhaps one might argue that a
                      >> text might
                      >> be 'contaminated' by memory inclinations, whence through the process
                      >> of
                      >> copying a text over an over might produce. Like when a student, who
                      >> light
                      >> copy a quote from a poet, might stop looking at the text he is
                      >> copying and
                      >> include the line or verse from memory, perhaps slightly skewing it.
                      >> But can
                      >> one adequately argue for memory? I think that one would be
                      >> hardpressed to
                      >> argue convincingly that particular case. But then again, I am just
                      >> waking
                      >> up, and have not yet had a cup of coffee, so perhaps I am not yet
                      >> alert
                      >> enough to grasp the argument.
                      >>
                      >> Thomas Verenna
                      >> Philadelphia, PA
                      >>
                      >> Sent from my iPhone
                      >>
                      >> On Jul 1, 2011, at 4:37 PM, George F Somsel <gfsomsel@...>
                      >> wrote:
                      >>
                      >>> In the NT it is common to see errors which are either generated by
                      >> errors
                      >>> of the
                      >>> eye or errors of hearing. One might skip a line because there is
                      >> another
                      >>> line
                      >>> with the same ending (homoioteuleuton) or even repeat a line. On the
                      >>> other hand
                      >>> when the vowels began to iticize, i.e., coalesce into an "i"
                      >> sound. Thus
                      >>> there
                      >>> are clues to what the cause might be for an an error, but evidence
                      >> isn't
                      >>> always
                      >>> present. If one finds a passage which is similar in some respects to
                      >>> another,
                      >>> one might find some elements introduced from the other passage
                      >> which would
                      >>> then
                      >>> indicate an error of memory.
                      >>> george
                      >>> gfsomsel
                      >>>
                      >>> ? search for truth, hear truth,
                      >>> learn truth, love truth, speak the truth, hold the truth,
                      >>> defend the truth till death.
                      >>>
                      >>> - Jan Hus
                      >>> _________
                      >>>
                      >>> ________________________________
                      >>> From: Tom Verenna <tsverenna@...>
                      >>> To: "ANE-2@yahoogroups.com" <ANE-2@yahoogroups.com>
                      >>> Sent: Fri, July 1, 2011 12:02:54 PM
                      >>> Subject: Re: [ANE-2] 1QIsa[a]
                      >>>
                      >>>
                      >>> One has to wonder how anyone can determine that...
                      >>>
                      >>> Thomas Verenna
                      >>> Philadelphia, PA
                      >>>
                      >>> Sent from my iPhone
                      >>>
                      >>> On Jul 1, 2011, at 12:15 PM, Stephen Goranson <goranson@...>
                      >> wrote:
                      >>>
                      >>>> Millar Burrows, The Dead Sea Scrolls (1955) page 114:
                      >>>> "He may have been writing from dictation or even from memory."
                      >>>>
                      >>>> Stephen Goranson
                      >>>> http://www.duke.edu/~goranson
                      >>>>
                      >>>>
                      >>>> ________________________________
                      >>>> From: ANE-2@yahoogroups.com [ANE-2@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of
                      >> Petr
                      >>>> Tomasek
                      >>>> [tomasek@...]
                      >>>> Sent: Friday, July 01, 2011 11:29 AM
                      >>>> To: ane-2@yahoogroups.com
                      >>>> Subject: [ANE-2] 1QIsa[a]
                      >>>>
                      >>>>
                      >>>>
                      >>>> Hello!
                      >>>>
                      >>>> Can someone from the Qumran experts, please, confirm or falsify me
                      >>>> my feeling that someone suggested a hypothesis that 1QIsa[a]
                      >>>> was not copyied from another scroll, but written from memory?
                      >>>>
                      >>>> If so, would You, please, point me to the appropriate sources?
                      >>>>
                      >>>> Thank You very much,
                      >>>>
                      >>>> Petr Tom�?ek,
                      >>>> PhD student,
                      >>>> The Protestant Theological Faculty,
                      >>>> Charles University, Prague
                      >>>>
                      >>>> --
                      >>>> Petr Tomasek <http://www.etf.cuni.cz/~tomasek>
                      >>>> Jabber: butrus@...<mailto:butrus%40jabbim.cz>
                      >>>>
                      >>>> ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
                      >>>> EA 355:001 DU DU DU DU
                      >>>> EA 355:002 TU TU TU TU
                      >>>> EA 355:003 NU NU NU NU NU NU NU
                      >>>> EA 355:004 NA NA NA NA NA
                      >>>> ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
                      >>>>
                      >>>>
                      >>>>
                      >>>>
                      >>>>
                      >>>> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                      >>>>
                      >>>>
                      >>>>
                      >>>> ------------------------------------
                      >>>>
                      >>>> Yahoo! Groups Links
                      >>>>
                      >>>>
                      >>>>
                      >>>
                      >>> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                      >>>
                      >>>
                      >>
                      >> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                      >>
                      >> ------------------------------------
                      >>
                      >> Yahoo! Groups Links
                      >>
                      >>
                      >>
                      >
                      >
                      >
                      > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                      >
                      >
                      >
                      > ------------------------------------
                      >
                      > Yahoo! Groups Links
                      >
                      >
                      >
                      >

                      [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                    • victor avigdor hurowitz
                      Dear ANE, Ever since ANE went to YAHOO I have not been able to communicate by using Microsoft Office Outlook. For some reason my address is rejected. Yesterday
                      Message 10 of 13 , Jul 4, 2011
                      • 0 Attachment
                        Dear ANE,
                        Ever since ANE went to YAHOO I have not been able to communicate by using
                        Microsoft Office Outlook. For some reason my address is rejected.
                        Yesterday I finally tried to register again and I was successful in
                        sending one letter to ANE. Today, a few minutes ago I tried again by
                        replying to Brian Colless, but again I was rejected.
                        I am writing at this very moment on the old Telnet program which is how I
                        always used to communicate with ANE. What must I do to register again with
                        the YAHOO?
                        Thanks,
                        Victor Hurowitz
                        ANE
                      • Robert M Whiting
                        ... Dear Victor (and others with similar problems), By rejected, I presume you mean that yahoo sends you a message saying you must be a member to post messages
                        Message 11 of 13 , Jul 4, 2011
                        • 0 Attachment
                          On Mon, 4 Jul 2011, victor avigdor hurowitz wrote:

                          > Dear ANE,
                          > Ever since ANE went to YAHOO I have not been able to communicate by using
                          > Microsoft Office Outlook. For some reason my address is rejected.
                          > Yesterday I finally tried to register again and I was successful in
                          > sending one letter to ANE. Today, a few minutes ago I tried again by
                          > replying to Brian Colless, but again I was rejected.
                          > I am writing at this very moment on the old Telnet program which is how I
                          > always used to communicate with ANE. What must I do to register again with
                          > the YAHOO?

                          Dear Victor (and others with similar problems),

                          By rejected, I presume you mean that yahoo sends you a message saying you
                          must be a member to post messages to the group. The most common reason
                          for this is that you are trying to post from a address that is not
                          registered with yahoo.

                          To fix this, go to the ANE-2 home page (or any sub-page) and click on the
                          link that says "Edit Membership" near the top of the page (just under the
                          advertising banner). This will take you to a page that contains your
                          optional settings for the group. Under "Step 1." there is a section
                          labeled "Email Addresses". Make sure that all the addresses that you may
                          want to post from are included. If not, click on the link that says "Add
                          new email address" and then add any additional email addresses. Once the
                          email address is registered, you should be able to post from it.

                          If this doesn't fix your problem, it may be specific to MSOutlook in which
                          case, since I don't use Outlook, you're on your own.

                          Bob Whiting
                          whiting@...
                        Your message has been successfully submitted and would be delivered to recipients shortly.