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Marriage in Funeral Rites?

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  • George Athas
    I was recently asked whether it was true if, in some Ancient Near Eastern cultures, when someone died before they were married, that the funeral rite also
    Message 1 of 7 , May 23, 2011
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      I was recently asked whether it was true if, in some Ancient Near Eastern cultures, when someone died before they were married, that the funeral rite also contained some kind of marriage rite. The episode of Jephthah's daughter in the Book of Judges springs to mind, but I wouldn't have thought this counted as an example of a marriage rite within a funeral rite.

      Does anyone have any specific knowledge of such rituals?


      GEORGE ATHAS
      Moore Theological College (Sydney, Australia)
      www.moore.edu.au



      [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
    • Trudy Kawami
      I have no knowledge of such rites in the ANE, but sometime in the last year the New York Times wrote a piece about the practice in contemporary China. There
      Message 2 of 7 , May 24, 2011
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        I have no knowledge of such rites in the ANE, but sometime in the last year the New York Times wrote a piece about the practice in contemporary China. There the practice developed in response to the shortage of eligible brides due to the cultural preference for sons & the use of ultrasound to determine the gender of the fetus. It's clearly not ANE, but it might be a place to start.

        Trudy S. Kawami, PhD
        Director of Research
        Arthur M. Sackler Foundation
        461 East 57th Street
        New York, NY 10022
        212-980-5400 X25
        www.arthurmsacklerfdn.org

        From: ANE-2@yahoogroups.com [mailto:ANE-2@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of George Athas
        Sent: Tuesday, May 24, 2011 12:17 AM
        To: ANE-2
        Subject: [ANE-2] Marriage in Funeral Rites?



        I was recently asked whether it was true if, in some Ancient Near Eastern cultures, when someone died before they were married, that the funeral rite also contained some kind of marriage rite. The episode of Jephthah's daughter in the Book of Judges springs to mind, but I wouldn't have thought this counted as an example of a marriage rite within a funeral rite.

        Does anyone have any specific knowledge of such rituals?

        GEORGE ATHAS
        Moore Theological College (Sydney, Australia)
        www.moore.edu.au<http://www.moore.edu.au>

        [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]



        [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
      • George Athas
        Thanks Trudy! I didn t think it was an Ancient Near East practice. GEORGE ATHAS Moore Theological College (Sydney, Australia) www.moore.edu.au From: Trudy
        Message 3 of 7 , May 24, 2011
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          Thanks Trudy! I didn't think it was an Ancient Near East practice.


          GEORGE ATHAS
          Moore Theological College (Sydney, Australia)
          www.moore.edu.au


          From: Trudy Kawami <tkawami@...<mailto:tkawami@...>>
          Reply-To: ANE-2 <ANE-2@yahoogroups.com<mailto:ANE-2@yahoogroups.com>>
          Date: Tue, 24 May 2011 18:44:17 +0000
          To: ANE-2 <ANE-2@yahoogroups.com<mailto:ANE-2@yahoogroups.com>>
          Subject: [ANE-2] RE: Marriage in Funeral Rites?



          I have no knowledge of such rites in the ANE, but sometime in the last year the New York Times wrote a piece about the practice in contemporary China. There the practice developed in response to the shortage of eligible brides due to the cultural preference for sons & the use of ultrasound to determine the gender of the fetus. It's clearly not ANE, but it might be a place to start.

          Trudy S. Kawami, PhD
          Director of Research
          Arthur M. Sackler Foundation
          461 East 57th Street
          New York, NY 10022
          212-980-5400 X25
          www.arthurmsacklerfdn.org

          From: ANE-2@yahoogroups.com<mailto:ANE-2%40yahoogroups.com> [mailto:ANE-2@yahoogroups.com<mailto:ANE-2%40yahoogroups.com>] On Behalf Of George Athas
          Sent: Tuesday, May 24, 2011 12:17 AM
          To: ANE-2
          Subject: [ANE-2] Marriage in Funeral Rites?

          I was recently asked whether it was true if, in some Ancient Near Eastern cultures, when someone died before they were married, that the funeral rite also contained some kind of marriage rite. The episode of Jephthah's daughter in the Book of Judges springs to mind, but I wouldn't have thought this counted as an example of a marriage rite within a funeral rite.

          Does anyone have any specific knowledge of such rituals?

          GEORGE ATHAS
          Moore Theological College (Sydney, Australia)
          www.moore.edu.au<http://www.moore.edu.au>
        • MarcC
          This may be off the mark, but there is a simile in the Gilgamesh in which G. covers the face of the dead Enkidu like a bride. (Tablet VIII). Also the funeral
          Message 4 of 7 , May 26, 2011
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            This may be off the mark, but there is a simile in the Gilgamesh in which G. covers the face of the dead Enkidu "like a bride." (Tablet VIII). Also the funeral of Enkidu is very much like Ishtar's marriage proposal to Gilgamesh which Gilgamesh interprets as a funeral. These are literary devices. I have no idea whether or not they correspond to rituals in which a childless man's funeral includes references to marriage.

            Marc Cooper
            Missouri State


            --- In ANE-2@yahoogroups.com, George Athas <george.athas@...> wrote:
            >
            > Thanks Trudy! I didn't think it was an Ancient Near East practice.
            >
            >
            > GEORGE ATHAS
            > Moore Theological College (Sydney, Australia)
            > www.moore.edu.au
            >
            >
            > From: Trudy Kawami <tkawami@...<mailto:tkawami@...>>
            > Reply-To: ANE-2 <ANE-2@yahoogroups.com<mailto:ANE-2@yahoogroups.com>>
            > Date: Tue, 24 May 2011 18:44:17 +0000
            > To: ANE-2 <ANE-2@yahoogroups.com<mailto:ANE-2@yahoogroups.com>>
            > Subject: [ANE-2] RE: Marriage in Funeral Rites?
            >
            >
            >
            > I have no knowledge of such rites in the ANE, but sometime in the last year the New York Times wrote a piece about the practice in contemporary China. There the practice developed in response to the shortage of eligible brides due to the cultural preference for sons & the use of ultrasound to determine the gender of the fetus. It's clearly not ANE, but it might be a place to start.
            >
            > Trudy S. Kawami, PhD
            > Director of Research
            > Arthur M. Sackler Foundation
            > 461 East 57th Street
            > New York, NY 10022
            > 212-980-5400 X25
            > www.arthurmsacklerfdn.org
            >
            > From: ANE-2@yahoogroups.com<mailto:ANE-2%40yahoogroups.com> [mailto:ANE-2@yahoogroups.com<mailto:ANE-2%40yahoogroups.com>] On Behalf Of George Athas
            > Sent: Tuesday, May 24, 2011 12:17 AM
            > To: ANE-2
            > Subject: [ANE-2] Marriage in Funeral Rites?
            >
            > I was recently asked whether it was true if, in some Ancient Near Eastern cultures, when someone died before they were married, that the funeral rite also contained some kind of marriage rite. The episode of Jephthah's daughter in the Book of Judges springs to mind, but I wouldn't have thought this counted as an example of a marriage rite within a funeral rite.
            >
            > Does anyone have any specific knowledge of such rituals?
            >
            > GEORGE ATHAS
            > Moore Theological College (Sydney, Australia)
            > www.moore.edu.au<http://www.moore.edu.au>
            >
          • George Athas
            Much appreciated, Marc! GEORGE ATHAS Moore Theological College (Sydney, Australia) www.moore.edu.au From: MarcC
            Message 5 of 7 , May 26, 2011
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              Much appreciated, Marc!


              GEORGE ATHAS
              Moore Theological College (Sydney, Australia)
              www.moore.edu.au


              From: MarcC <marc.cooper@...<mailto:marc.cooper@...>>
              Reply-To: ANE-2 <ANE-2@yahoogroups.com<mailto:ANE-2@yahoogroups.com>>
              Date: Thu, 26 May 2011 14:16:24 +0000
              To: ANE-2 <ANE-2@yahoogroups.com<mailto:ANE-2@yahoogroups.com>>
              Subject: [ANE-2] Re: Marriage in Funeral Rites?



              This may be off the mark, but there is a simile in the Gilgamesh in which G. covers the face of the dead Enkidu "like a bride." (Tablet VIII). Also the funeral of Enkidu is very much like Ishtar's marriage proposal to Gilgamesh which Gilgamesh interprets as a funeral. These are literary devices. I have no idea whether or not they correspond to rituals in which a childless man's funeral includes references to marriage.

              Marc Cooper
              Missouri State

              --- In ANE-2@yahoogroups.com<mailto:ANE-2%40yahoogroups.com>, George Athas <george.athas@...> wrote:
              >
              > Thanks Trudy! I didn't think it was an Ancient Near East practice.
              >
              >
              > GEORGE ATHAS
              > Moore Theological College (Sydney, Australia)
              > www.moore.edu.au
              >
              >
              > From: Trudy Kawami <tkawami@...<mailto:tkawami@...>>
              > Reply-To: ANE-2 <ANE-2@yahoogroups.com<mailto:ANE-2%40yahoogroups.com><mailto:ANE-2@yahoogroups.com<mailto:ANE-2%40yahoogroups.com>>>
              > Date: Tue, 24 May 2011 18:44:17 +0000
              > To: ANE-2 <ANE-2@yahoogroups.com<mailto:ANE-2%40yahoogroups.com><mailto:ANE-2@yahoogroups.com<mailto:ANE-2%40yahoogroups.com>>>
              > Subject: [ANE-2] RE: Marriage in Funeral Rites?
              >
              >
              >
              > I have no knowledge of such rites in the ANE, but sometime in the last year the New York Times wrote a piece about the practice in contemporary China. There the practice developed in response to the shortage of eligible brides due to the cultural preference for sons & the use of ultrasound to determine the gender of the fetus. It's clearly not ANE, but it might be a place to start.
              >
              > Trudy S. Kawami, PhD
              > Director of Research
              > Arthur M. Sackler Foundation
              > 461 East 57th Street
              > New York, NY 10022
              > 212-980-5400 X25
              > www.arthurmsacklerfdn.org
              >
              > From: ANE-2@yahoogroups.com<mailto:ANE-2%40yahoogroups.com><mailto:ANE-2%40yahoogroups.com> [mailto:ANE-2@yahoogroups.com<mailto:ANE-2%40yahoogroups.com><mailto:ANE-2%40yahoogroups.com>] On Behalf Of George Athas
              > Sent: Tuesday, May 24, 2011 12:17 AM
              > To: ANE-2
              > Subject: [ANE-2] Marriage in Funeral Rites?
              >
              > I was recently asked whether it was true if, in some Ancient Near Eastern cultures, when someone died before they were married, that the funeral rite also contained some kind of marriage rite. The episode of Jephthah's daughter in the Book of Judges springs to mind, but I wouldn't have thought this counted as an example of a marriage rite within a funeral rite.
              >
              > Does anyone have any specific knowledge of such rituals?
              >
              > GEORGE ATHAS
              > Moore Theological College (Sydney, Australia)
              > www.moore.edu.au<http://www.moore.edu.au>
              >





              [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
            • Lampros F. Kallenos
              ... When a young girl, or even a young man, dies while still unmarried, it often happens that, among her tears, the mother calls the deceased and refers to
              Message 6 of 7 , May 29, 2011
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                > I was recently asked whether it was true if, in some
                > Ancient Near Eastern cultures, when someone died
                > before they were married, that the funeral rite also
                > contained some kind of marriage rite.

                When a young girl, or even a young man, dies while still
                unmarried, it often happens that, among her tears, the
                mother calls the deceased and refers to her, or him, as a
                bride, or groom: "Ah, my child, and I was longing to see you
                a bride..." The deceased girl or boy might even be dressed
                as a bride or groom.

                This may happen when the dead daughter or son had already,
                or almost, entered the age of marriage, but it may also
                happen if the child dies while a marriage was still enough
                years in the future.

                My recollection has this not as a custom, but something more
                probable to happen in conditions that make the pain even
                bigger --for example, a beloved, beautiful girl, a sudden
                sickness, an accident. Not being a custom, it is also not a
                custom that it will be the mother that will call the dead
                child. But the mother is often the one carrying the most
                intense feelings.

                What I don't know, is how much back can these be traced.

                Sorry for my delay to respond. One of my excuses, is that I
                originally thought it was about a death that happens before
                a marriage already planned.

                I recall that one Greek author wrote a poem or a book when
                his child died, in which he refers to the marriage of the
                child. Unfortunately for my memory, it is not Stratis
                Myrivilis and "H zwh en tafw".



                _____________________________
                Λάμπρος Φ. Καλλένος
                Ιδάλιον, Λευκωσία
                Κύπρος
                --
              • Phoenix
                Hello, Here are a couple of examples of marriage/near-marriage after the death of one of the potential spouses- At the start of the Trojan War, Spartan
                Message 7 of 7 , Jun 4, 2011
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                  Hello,

                  Here are a couple of examples of marriage/near-marriage after the death of one of the potential spouses-

                  At the start of the Trojan War, Spartan Iphigenia is told she will
                  be Achilles' bride, but she is slain as a sacrifice. She is later said to be his wife in the Underworld.

                  Trojan Polyxena was to be married to Achilles (whether by the living Achilles' negotiation or the demand of his ghost). After he died,
                  she was sacrificed to him by his son Pyrrhus, born by Deidamia.
                  The death of Polyxena marks the end of the war.

                  I wonder what the spirits of Helen of Sparta and Medea of Colchis thought, as they were also each reputed to be the wife of Achilles
                  in the Afterlife.

                  Herakles had to die as a mortal to wed the immortal Hebe.

                  An interesting contemporary example is at this link:
                  http://www.smh.com.au/articles/2004/02/11/1076388397691.html

                  Apparently, in France one can have a posthumous marriage.

                  The Mormon Church practices a form of this, too.

                  The Chinese practice is called ghost marriage.

                  Interesting topic!

                  Be Well,
                  Demetria Nanos, Chicago


                  --- In ANE-2@yahoogroups.com, "Lampros F. Kallenos" <xalkinos04@...> wrote:
                  >
                  > > I was recently asked whether it was true if, in some
                  > > Ancient Near Eastern cultures, when someone died
                  > > before they were married, that the funeral rite also
                  > > contained some kind of marriage rite.
                  >
                  > When a young girl, or even a young man, dies while still
                  > unmarried, it often happens that, among her tears, the
                  > mother calls the deceased and refers to her, or him, as a
                  > bride, or groom: "Ah, my child, and I was longing to see you
                  > a bride..." The deceased girl or boy might even be dressed
                  > as a bride or groom.
                  >
                  > This may happen when the dead daughter or son had already,
                  > or almost, entered the age of marriage, but it may also
                  > happen if the child dies while a marriage was still enough
                  > years in the future.
                  >
                  > My recollection has this not as a custom, but something more
                  > probable to happen in conditions that make the pain even
                  > bigger --for example, a beloved, beautiful girl, a sudden
                  > sickness, an accident. Not being a custom, it is also not a
                  > custom that it will be the mother that will call the dead
                  > child. But the mother is often the one carrying the most
                  > intense feelings.
                  >
                  > What I don't know, is how much back can these be traced.
                  >
                  > Sorry for my delay to respond. One of my excuses, is that I
                  > originally thought it was about a death that happens before
                  > a marriage already planned.
                  >
                  > I recall that one Greek author wrote a poem or a book when
                  > his child died, in which he refers to the marriage of the
                  > child. Unfortunately for my memory, it is not Stratis
                  > Myrivilis and "H zwh en tafw".
                  >
                  >
                  >
                  > _____________________________
                  > Λάμπρος Φ. Καλλένος
                  > Ιδάλιον, Λευκωσία
                  > Κύπρος
                  > --
                  >
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