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Re: Lead Codice

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  • a8oct@btopenworld.com
    ... Is it not just possible that the sightings you refer to are from people who have acquired some of the find? The JAA had apparently seen some examples and
    Message 1 of 11 , Apr 5, 2011
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      --- In ANE-2@yahoogroups.com, Robert Deutsch <rd@...> wrote:
      >
      > This is ridiculous and embarrassing how serious "experts" are
      > considering the authenticity of such foolish fakes.
      > The antiquities dealers in Israel are bombarded in the last 15 years
      > with such "booklets", which are poured from Jordan,
      > west of the land of Ali Baba. Yes, The Ali Baba Codices.
      >
      > Robert Deutsch
      > Tel Aviv
      >
      > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
      >
      Is it not just possible that the sightings you refer to are from people who have 'acquired' some of the find? The JAA had apparently seen some examples and thought them fakes, but no-one did any serious testing of them. Since then extensive metallurgical tests have been performed by Oxford Materials Laboratory and elsewhere and the opinion of Dr Peter Northover is that they were not modern castings. Several professors, who have studied examples, have said they think they are genuine. How do you explain reports that the Director of Jordan's Department of Antiquities, Ziad al-Saad, now thinks they are genuine and wants them back? If they are so prolific in the market place, has Robert Deutsch seen any examples? Does he know of any actual dealers who have seen them? If so when and where? How did he or they know what he or they saw were fakes or genuine?
      Robert Feather, London
    • Robert
      Dear Mr. Feather I saw at least 15 such chimeras I will give a short description of some highlights from the iconography depicted on several codices for the
      Message 2 of 11 , Apr 5, 2011
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        Dear Mr. Feather

        I saw at least 15 such chimeras

        I will give a short description of some highlights from the iconography depicted on several "codices" for the "scholars" which are not familiar with numismatics.

        On a single leaf one can find: the head of Alexander the great copied,
        or impressed from a coin of his general Lysimachos, a palm tree from the coins of Bar Kokhba and Cartage, the eight pointed stars from the Jewish coins of Alexander Yannay and Hellenistic coins of the Seleucus, the bust of Domitianus from the administration coins minted in Judaea, The "inscriptions" are copied from the Hasmonean and Bar Kokhba coins, inscribed in straight and mirror shape, not to mention Gibberish in greek.

        Some of the leafs are impressed by a mechanical device and some made by hand, All are sealed with nails, some made of iron.

        No patina or corrosion is detected on them, but only an artificial brown color. An expert who is familiar with lead rust doesn't need more than 10 seconds with a magnifying glass to find out the fraud.

        Let me end with a comment I made a short time ago on Jim West's Web site:
        "Scholars are contaminating their academic records with lead poison".

        What can I add - the name of Jesus was called in vain.

        Robert Deutsch
        Herzliah



        --- In ANE-2@yahoogroups.com, "a8oct@..." <a8oct@...> wrote:
        >
        >
        >
        > --- In ANE-2@yahoogroups.com, Robert Deutsch <rd@> wrote:
        > >
        > > This is ridiculous and embarrassing how serious "experts" are
        > > considering the authenticity of such foolish fakes.
        > > The antiquities dealers in Israel are bombarded in the last 15 years
        > > with such "booklets", which are poured from Jordan,
        > > west of the land of Ali Baba. Yes, The Ali Baba Codices.
        > >
        > > Robert Deutsch
        > > Tel Aviv
        > >
        > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
        > >
        > Is it not just possible that the sightings you refer to are from people who have 'acquired' some of the find? The JAA had apparently seen some examples and thought them fakes, but no-one did any serious testing of them. Since then extensive metallurgical tests have been performed by Oxford Materials Laboratory and elsewhere and the opinion of Dr Peter Northover is that they were not modern castings. Several professors, who have studied examples, have said they think they are genuine. How do you explain reports that the Director of Jordan's Department of Antiquities, Ziad al-Saad, now thinks they are genuine and wants them back? If they are so prolific in the market place, has Robert Deutsch seen any examples? Does he know of any actual dealers who have seen them? If so when and where? How did he or they know what he or they saw were fakes or genuine?
        > Robert Feather, London
        >
      • a8oct@btopenworld.com
        Dear Mr Deutsch, I appreciate your response. I assume your chimeras are not fire-eating female monsters, but was more interested in where you saw examples of
        Message 3 of 11 , Apr 6, 2011
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          Dear Mr Deutsch,
          I appreciate your response. I assume your 'chimeras' are not fire-eating female monsters, but was more interested in where you saw examples of the Lead Codices and more specific names of dealers and when you saw them.


          You are an acknowledged world expert on inscriptions and bullae and I agree absolutely that many of the images on the codices are taken from coins and extant imagery from the Hellenistic to 2nd Temple period and beyond to the 2nd century CE. Interestingly no coin impressions after the Bar Kochbar period are seen.

          My expertise is in metallurgy and whilst some of the material shows little sign of corrosion, others I have personally examined definitely do.

          I am mindful that I have expressed the view that some of the materials that I have had a chance to examine are probably genuine. The flip side of that is that some I have seen could well be items that have entered the collection and not come from the cave source. Other items I have not seen, but only been told about or seen photographs of, I obviously cannot certify as genuine.

          The two books I have studied in the laboratory and had Mass Spectrometry testing performed on, are in my opinion and the opinion of Dr Peter Northover, Head of Oxford Materials Laboratory, of very old provenance and not modern remelted material. Visually the corrosion products on these two books are strongly indicative of aging that has taken place over a long period. My position has always been cautious, saying much more work needed to be done to know what the codices were saying and to verify their possible authenticity.

          As to the presence of Jesus and possible images of Him, this, of course, is wild speculation, and I have never made such a suggestion. This is all journalistic exploitation for Easter!

          If some of the material is authentic, in my view, it relates to the 2nd century CE and Jewish activities - perhaps related to Bar Kochbar.

          Robert Feather, London


          --- In ANE-2@yahoogroups.com, "Robert" <rd@...> wrote:
          >
          > Dear Mr. Feather
          >
          > I saw at least 15 such chimeras
          >
          > I will give a short description of some highlights from the iconography depicted on several "codices" for the "scholars" which are not familiar with numismatics.
          >
          > On a single leaf one can find: the head of Alexander the great copied,
          > or impressed from a coin of his general Lysimachos, a palm tree from the coins of Bar Kokhba and Cartage, the eight pointed stars from the Jewish coins of Alexander Yannay and Hellenistic coins of the Seleucus, the bust of Domitianus from the administration coins minted in Judaea, The "inscriptions" are copied from the Hasmonean and Bar Kokhba coins, inscribed in straight and mirror shape, not to mention Gibberish in greek.
          >
          > Some of the leafs are impressed by a mechanical device and some made by hand, All are sealed with nails, some made of iron.
          >
          > No patina or corrosion is detected on them, but only an artificial brown color. An expert who is familiar with lead rust doesn't need more than 10 seconds with a magnifying glass to find out the fraud.
          >
          > Let me end with a comment I made a short time ago on Jim West's Web site:
          > "Scholars are contaminating their academic records with lead poison".
          >
          > What can I add - the name of Jesus was called in vain.
          >
          > Robert Deutsch
          > Herzliah
          >
          >
          >
          > --- In ANE-2@yahoogroups.com, "a8oct@" <a8oct@> wrote:
          > >
          > >
          > >
          > > --- In ANE-2@yahoogroups.com, Robert Deutsch <rd@> wrote:
          > > >
          > > > This is ridiculous and embarrassing how serious "experts" are
          > > > considering the authenticity of such foolish fakes.
          > > > The antiquities dealers in Israel are bombarded in the last 15 years
          > > > with such "booklets", which are poured from Jordan,
          > > > west of the land of Ali Baba. Yes, The Ali Baba Codices.
          > > >
          > > > Robert Deutsch
          > > > Tel Aviv
          > > >
          > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
          > > >
          > > Is it not just possible that the sightings you refer to are from people who have 'acquired' some of the find? The JAA had apparently seen some examples and thought them fakes, but no-one did any serious testing of them. Since then extensive metallurgical tests have been performed by Oxford Materials Laboratory and elsewhere and the opinion of Dr Peter Northover is that they were not modern castings. Several professors, who have studied examples, have said they think they are genuine. How do you explain reports that the Director of Jordan's Department of Antiquities, Ziad al-Saad, now thinks they are genuine and wants them back? If they are so prolific in the market place, has Robert Deutsch seen any examples? Does he know of any actual dealers who have seen them? If so when and where? How did he or they know what he or they saw were fakes or genuine?
          > > Robert Feather, London
          > >
          >
        • tom_verenna
          At this point we have to accept that, based on just prima facie evidence (pictures provided by the media and so forth), that the images we are supplied with
          Message 4 of 11 , Apr 6, 2011
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            At this point we have to accept that, based on just prima facie evidence
            (pictures provided by the media and so forth), that the images we are
            supplied with are indeed fakes. I don't know who stated these were
            'genuine' but I can tell you it was not Philip. And I know that
            Margaret has not seen the tablets first hand (she has said as much
            herself) and both her and Philip had not been told that the one tablet
            which has been verified as part of the collection was indeed modern.

            The evidence is so strong at present that the tablets we have seen are
            fakes that I suspect when the other tablets are 'released' in whatever
            money-making scheme Elkington has in store, they will be discovered as
            modern as well.

            Tom Verenna, Philadelphia

            --- In ANE-2@yahoogroups.com, "Robert" <rd@...> wrote:
            >
            > Dear Mr. Feather
            >
            > I saw at least 15 such chimeras
            >
            > I will give a short description of some highlights from the
            iconography depicted on several "codices" for the "scholars" which are
            not familiar with numismatics.
            >
            > On a single leaf one can find: the head of Alexander the great copied,
            > or impressed from a coin of his general Lysimachos, a palm tree from
            the coins of Bar Kokhba and Cartage, the eight pointed stars from the
            Jewish coins of Alexander Yannay and Hellenistic coins of the Seleucus,
            the bust of Domitianus from the administration coins minted in Judaea,
            The "inscriptions" are copied from the Hasmonean and Bar Kokhba coins,
            inscribed in straight and mirror shape, not to mention Gibberish in
            greek.
            >
            > Some of the leafs are impressed by a mechanical device and some made
            by hand, All are sealed with nails, some made of iron.
            >
            > No patina or corrosion is detected on them, but only an artificial
            brown color. An expert who is familiar with lead rust doesn't need more
            than 10 seconds with a magnifying glass to find out the fraud.
            >
            > Let me end with a comment I made a short time ago on Jim West's Web
            site:
            > "Scholars are contaminating their academic records with lead poison".
            >
            > What can I add - the name of Jesus was called in vain.
            >
            > Robert Deutsch
            > Herzliah
            >
            >
            >
            > --- In ANE-2@yahoogroups.com, "a8oct@" a8oct@ wrote:
            > >
            > >
            > >
            > > --- In ANE-2@yahoogroups.com, Robert Deutsch <rd@> wrote:
            > > >
            > > > This is ridiculous and embarrassing how serious "experts" are
            > > > considering the authenticity of such foolish fakes.
            > > > The antiquities dealers in Israel are bombarded in the last 15
            years
            > > > with such "booklets", which are poured from Jordan,
            > > > west of the land of Ali Baba. Yes, The Ali Baba Codices.
            > > >
            > > > Robert Deutsch
            > > > Tel Aviv
            > > >
            > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
            > > >
            > > Is it not just possible that the sightings you refer to are from
            people who have 'acquired' some of the find? The JAA had apparently seen
            some examples and thought them fakes, but no-one did any serious testing
            of them. Since then extensive metallurgical tests have been performed
            by Oxford Materials Laboratory and elsewhere and the opinion of Dr Peter
            Northover is that they were not modern castings. Several professors, who
            have studied examples, have said they think they are genuine. How do you
            explain reports that the Director of Jordan's Department of Antiquities,
            Ziad al-Saad, now thinks they are genuine and wants them back? If they
            are so prolific in the market place, has Robert Deutsch seen any
            examples? Does he know of any actual dealers who have seen them? If so
            when and where? How did he or they know what he or they saw were fakes
            or genuine?
            > > Robert Feather, London
            > >
            >



            [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
          • Joe Zias
            They are of such poor quality I m surprised that anyone bought the story. On the other hand it s always the biblical acholars who fall for this stuff as dirt
            Message 5 of 11 , Apr 6, 2011
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              They are of such poor quality I'm surprised that anyone bought the story. On the other hand it's always the biblical acholars who fall for this stuff as dirt archaeologists, museum curators, dealers can usually spot these items as forgeries a mile away. Moreover, look at the names of those involved, at times it's a dead giveaway.

              Joe

              Joe Zias www.joezias.com
              Anthropology/Paleopathology

              Science and Antiquity Group - Jerusalem
              Jerusalem, Israel

              --- On Wed, 4/6/11, tom_verenna <tsverenna@...> wrote:

              From: tom_verenna <tsverenna@...>
              Subject: [ANE-2] Re: Lead Codice
              To: ANE-2@yahoogroups.com
              Date: Wednesday, April 6, 2011, 8:24 AM







               









              At this point we have to accept that, based on just prima facie evidence

              (pictures provided by the media and so forth), that the images we are

              supplied with are indeed fakes. I don't know who stated these were

              'genuine' but I can tell you it was not Philip. And I know that

              Margaret has not seen the tablets first hand (she has said as much

              herself) and both her and Philip had not been told that the one tablet

              which has been verified as part of the collection was indeed modern.



              The evidence is so strong at present that the tablets we have seen are

              fakes that I suspect when the other tablets are 'released' in whatever

              money-making scheme Elkington has in store, they will be discovered as

              modern as well.



              Tom Verenna, Philadelphia



              --- In ANE-2@yahoogroups.com, "Robert" <rd@...> wrote:

              >

              > Dear Mr. Feather

              >

              > I saw at least 15 such chimeras

              >

              > I will give a short description of some highlights from the

              iconography depicted on several "codices" for the "scholars" which are

              not familiar with numismatics.

              >

              > On a single leaf one can find: the head of Alexander the great copied,

              > or impressed from a coin of his general Lysimachos, a palm tree from

              the coins of Bar Kokhba and Cartage, the eight pointed stars from the

              Jewish coins of Alexander Yannay and Hellenistic coins of the Seleucus,

              the bust of Domitianus from the administration coins minted in Judaea,

              The "inscriptions" are copied from the Hasmonean and Bar Kokhba coins,

              inscribed in straight and mirror shape, not to mention Gibberish in

              greek.

              >

              > Some of the leafs are impressed by a mechanical device and some made

              by hand, All are sealed with nails, some made of iron.

              >

              > No patina or corrosion is detected on them, but only an artificial

              brown color. An expert who is familiar with lead rust doesn't need more

              than 10 seconds with a magnifying glass to find out the fraud.

              >

              > Let me end with a comment I made a short time ago on Jim West's Web

              site:

              > "Scholars are contaminating their academic records with lead poison".

              >

              > What can I add - the name of Jesus was called in vain.

              >

              > Robert Deutsch

              > Herzliah

              >

              >

              >

              > --- In ANE-2@yahoogroups.com, "a8oct@" a8oct@ wrote:

              > >

              > >

              > >

              > > --- In ANE-2@yahoogroups.com, Robert Deutsch <rd@> wrote:

              > > >

              > > > This is ridiculous and embarrassing how serious "experts" are

              > > > considering the authenticity of such foolish fakes.

              > > > The antiquities dealers in Israel are bombarded in the last 15

              years

              > > > with such "booklets", which are poured from Jordan,

              > > > west of the land of Ali Baba. Yes, The Ali Baba Codices.

              > > >

              > > > Robert Deutsch

              > > > Tel Aviv

              > > >

              > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

              > > >

              > > Is it not just possible that the sightings you refer to are from

              people who have 'acquired' some of the find? The JAA had apparently seen

              some examples and thought them fakes, but no-one did any serious testing

              of them. Since then extensive metallurgical tests have been performed

              by Oxford Materials Laboratory and elsewhere and the opinion of Dr Peter

              Northover is that they were not modern castings. Several professors, who

              have studied examples, have said they think they are genuine. How do you

              explain reports that the Director of Jordan's Department of Antiquities,

              Ziad al-Saad, now thinks they are genuine and wants them back? If they

              are so prolific in the market place, has Robert Deutsch seen any

              examples? Does he know of any actual dealers who have seen them? If so

              when and where? How did he or they know what he or they saw were fakes

              or genuine?

              > > Robert Feather, London

              > >

              >



              [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]






















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