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Re: [ANE-2] Lead Codices

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  • RUSSELLGMIRKIN@aol.com
    Dear Robert Feather, Perhaps you could definitively clarify some questions that have come up about these Lead Codices. (1) Is this the same cache described by
    Message 1 of 8 , Apr 5, 2011
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      Dear Robert Feather,
      Perhaps you could definitively clarify some questions that have come up
      about these Lead Codices.
      (1) Is this the same cache described by David Elkington in a letter to
      Peter Thonemann of Oxford University as “ancient metal codices... comprised of
      lead and copper”?
      (2) Could you clarify their origin? According to David Elkington, the
      Bedouin who brought them to his attention said his father found them in northen
      Egypt. Another report claims they were uncovered in a newly opened cave
      about five years ago. A third report says they had been in the possession of
      a certain Jordanian Bedouin family for about a hundred years. Which, if any
      of these, is the definitive version? Which versions have you been told,
      and under what circumstances?
      (3) Does this cache of Lead Codices include the copper codice with an
      image of Alexander’s head, a crocodile, and a Greek inscription running along
      the top that David Elkington brought to Peter Thonemann’s attention for
      evaluative purposes? Thonemann determined that the inscription (
      “ΛΛΥΠΕΧΛΙΡΕΛΒΓΛΡΟΚΛΙΕΙΣΙΩΝ”) translates to the phrase ‘without grief,
      farewell! Abgar also known as Eision’ and was lifted verbatim from the second line
      of a funeral inscription of 108/109 AD on display in the Jordan museum.
      See his discussion at

      _http://danielomcclellan.wordpress.com/2011/03/31/peter-thonemann-on-the-lea
      d-cod\
      ices/_
      (http://danielomcclellan.wordpress.com/2011/03/31/peter-thonemann-on-the-lead-codices/)

      _http://paleojudaica.blogspot.com/2011_03_27_archive.html#745436907824774675
      4_
      (http://paleojudaica.blogspot.com/2011_03_27_archive.html#7454369078247746754)
      (4) Is this the same set of codices that Philip Davies has expressed grave
      reservations about on the biblical studies news group? According to BBC
      reporting, Dr Margaret Barker has stated that they could be unique evidence
      of Christian activity as early as 33 AD "if the books are genuine." Is it
      possible that you are overstating their opinions on the authenticity of these
      codices?
      _http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-derbyshire-12881931_
      (http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-derbyshire-12881931)
      Best regards,
      Russell Gmirkin
      Portland, OR


      Some of the articles about 'Lead "Jesus Tablets" Discovered in Jordan:'
      that are appearing in a number of news outlets are very misleading and
      tantamount to journalistic sensationalism. The people claiming to be the first to
      announce discovery of the Lead Codices are simply not telling the truth. I
      released information in a March 2010 article in Yidioth Arahanoth, the
      Israeli daily, and again three weeks before an unofficial group started putting
      out 'stories', I provided information for an article in the Jewish
      Chronicle of 4th March 2011 and again for The Mail on Sunday article by Nick
      Pryer, published on 3rd April 2011. The metallurgical work on trying to assess
      the age of the metals was performed under my guidance with Dr Peter
      Northover of the Oxford Materials Service and the results are copyrighted.
      Claims that the text refers to Jesus and the Book of Revelations are also
      highly speculative. These are Hebrew documents, almost certainly dating to
      the 2nd century CE Bar Kochbar period.

      Professor Philip Davies, and Dr Margaret Barker have expressed the view
      that the materials are genuine. More information will be released in due
      course, as we have no intention of hiding the information from the academic and
      scholarly world or the public. We do need to be cautious, however, as to
      their authenticity, until more tests are completed.
      Robert Feather, London












      [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
    • a8oct@btopenworld.com
      Dear Russell, I will try and clarify. 1. I do not know what Elkington showed to Peter Thonemann, as I severed contact with him, very early on and warned
      Message 2 of 8 , Apr 5, 2011
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        Dear Russell,
        I will try and clarify.
        1. I do not know what Elkington showed to Peter Thonemann, as I severed contact with him, very early on and warned Margaret Barker to be wary. Her expertise is not in question but I believe she has been misled.
        2. I have been told by Hassan Saeda that they were given to him by his grandfather and came from near the Israel/Jordan border.
        3. Yes this item is part of the cache and I have seen it. Whether it was copied from the museum, or the original funery display I cannot say. But, if the material is genuine, and the jury is still out on that, I date them to the 2nd century Bar Kochbar period so it would have been accessible to the original makers.
        4. Philip Davies is quoted in the newspapers and on the BBC as believing the material is authentic and very early Christian in origin. I do not know if he was correctly quoted. I have had nothing to do with the group Elkington consulted (apart from talking with Margaret Barker), so I do not know if Professor Davies has examined actual samples - although I would doubt it- he has probably only seen photographs of this particular item. They did, it appears have access to actual samples of some of the sheets.

        Hope this helps.
        Robert Feather, London




        --- In ANE-2@yahoogroups.com, RUSSELLGMIRKIN@... wrote:
        >
        >
        >
        > Dear Robert Feather,
        > Perhaps you could definitively clarify some questions that have come up
        > about these Lead Codices.
        > (1) Is this the same cache described by David Elkington in a letter to
        > Peter Thonemann of Oxford University as “ancient metal codices... comprised of
        > lead and copper”?
        > (2) Could you clarify their origin? According to David Elkington, the
        > Bedouin who brought them to his attention said his father found them in northen
        > Egypt. Another report claims they were uncovered in a newly opened cave
        > about five years ago. A third report says they had been in the possession of
        > a certain Jordanian Bedouin family for about a hundred years. Which, if any
        > of these, is the definitive version? Which versions have you been told,
        > and under what circumstances?
        > (3) Does this cache of Lead Codices include the copper codice with an
        > image of Alexander’s head, a crocodile, and a Greek inscription running along
        > the top that David Elkington brought to Peter Thonemann’s attention for
        > evaluative purposes? Thonemann determined that the inscription (
        > “ΛΛΥΠΕΧΛΙΡΕΛÎ'Î"ΛΡΟΚΛΙΕΙΣΙΩΝ”) translates to the phrase ‘without grief,
        > farewell! Abgar also known as Eision’ and was lifted verbatim from the second line
        > of a funeral inscription of 108/109 AD on display in the Jordan museum.
        > See his discussion at
        >
        > _http://danielomcclellan.wordpress.com/2011/03/31/peter-thonemann-on-the-lea
        > d-cod\
        > ices/_
        > (http://danielomcclellan.wordpress.com/2011/03/31/peter-thonemann-on-the-lead-codices/)
        >
        > _http://paleojudaica.blogspot.com/2011_03_27_archive.html#745436907824774675
        > 4_
        > (http://paleojudaica.blogspot.com/2011_03_27_archive.html#7454369078247746754)
        > (4) Is this the same set of codices that Philip Davies has expressed grave
        > reservations about on the biblical studies news group? According to BBC
        > reporting, Dr Margaret Barker has stated that they could be unique evidence
        > of Christian activity as early as 33 AD "if the books are genuine." Is it
        > possible that you are overstating their opinions on the authenticity of these
        > codices?
        > _http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-derbyshire-12881931_
        > (http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-derbyshire-12881931)
        > Best regards,
        > Russell Gmirkin
        > Portland, OR
        >
        >
        > Some of the articles about 'Lead "Jesus Tablets" Discovered in Jordan:'
        > that are appearing in a number of news outlets are very misleading and
        > tantamount to journalistic sensationalism. The people claiming to be the first to
        > announce discovery of the Lead Codices are simply not telling the truth. I
        > released information in a March 2010 article in Yidioth Arahanoth, the
        > Israeli daily, and again three weeks before an unofficial group started putting
        > out 'stories', I provided information for an article in the Jewish
        > Chronicle of 4th March 2011 and again for The Mail on Sunday article by Nick
        > Pryer, published on 3rd April 2011. The metallurgical work on trying to assess
        > the age of the metals was performed under my guidance with Dr Peter
        > Northover of the Oxford Materials Service and the results are copyrighted.
        > Claims that the text refers to Jesus and the Book of Revelations are also
        > highly speculative. These are Hebrew documents, almost certainly dating to
        > the 2nd century CE Bar Kochbar period.
        >
        > Professor Philip Davies, and Dr Margaret Barker have expressed the view
        > that the materials are genuine. More information will be released in due
        > course, as we have no intention of hiding the information from the academic and
        > scholarly world or the public. We do need to be cautious, however, as to
        > their authenticity, until more tests are completed.
        > Robert Feather, London
        >
        >
        >
        >
        >
        >
        >
        >
        >
        >
        >
        >
        > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
        >
      • a8oct@btopenworld.com
        In reply to Peter Daniels, the metallurgical work at Oxford was commissioned by me and the report bears the label copyright on the cover. Robert Feather,
        Message 3 of 8 , Apr 5, 2011
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          In reply to Peter Daniels, the metallurgical work at Oxford was commissioned by me and the report bears the label copyright on the cover.

          Robert Feather, London

          --- In ANE-2@yahoogroups.com, "Peter T. Daniels" <grammatim@...> wrote:
          >
          > What does it mean to say that the results of a metallurgical analysis are
          > "copyrighted"?
          >  
          > --
          > Peter T. Daniels grammatim@...
          > Jersey City 
          >
          >
          > >
          > >
        • Peter T. Daniels
          Of course the report is copyrighted (and not by virtue of bearing the label copyright anywhere on it). The information contained within the report is not
          Message 4 of 8 , Apr 5, 2011
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            Of course the report is copyrighted (and not by virtue of bearing the label
            "copyright" anywhere on it).

            The information contained within the report is not subject to copyright or to
            copyright restrictions.
             --
            Peter T. Daniels grammatim@...
            Jersey City

            From: "a8oct@..." <a8oct@...>
            >To: ANE-2@yahoogroups.com
            >Sent: Tue, April 5, 2011 10:58:22 AM
            >Subject: [ANE-2] Re: Lead Codices
            >

            >In reply to Peter Daniels, the metallurgical work at Oxford was commissioned by
            >me and the report bears the label copyright on the cover.
            >
            >Robert Feather, London
            >
            >--- In ANE-2@yahoogroups.com, "Peter T. Daniels" <grammatim@...> wrote:
            >>
            >> What does it mean to say that the results of a metallurgical analysis are
            >> "copyrighted"?

            [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
          • Trudy Kawami
            What is interesting in this exchange of comments is the frequency of words like believe, believing , would have been (interesting conditional there),
            Message 5 of 8 , Apr 6, 2011
            • 0 Attachment
              What is interesting in this exchange of comments is the frequency of words like "believe," "believing", "would have been" (interesting conditional there), "have been told" and similar terms. There is no objective description of the corrosion products, no statement of the parameters of the tests, no mention of XRF analysis or any other commonly used & accepted analytical procedure for assessing the "life" of a piece of metal. Instead we appear to have scholars of religion and language who couldn't tell cast metal from hammered (let alone copper alloy from lead) hoping/believing something is authentic - bad science (& bad logic). Add to this the approach of the Easter season, you can see the red flags of super-hype flying.
              Willing suspension of dis-belief is fine for the theater, but really inappropriate in scholarship.

              Trudy S. Kawami, PhD
              Director of Research
              Arthur M. Sackler Foundation
              461 East 57th Street
              New York, NY 10022
              212-980-5400 X25
              www.arthurmsacklerfdn.org

              From: ANE-2@yahoogroups.com [mailto:ANE-2@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of a8oct@...
              Sent: Tuesday, April 05, 2011 10:51 AM
              To: ANE-2@yahoogroups.com
              Subject: [ANE-2] Re: Lead Codices



              Dear Russell,
              I will try and clarify.
              1. I do not know what Elkington showed to Peter Thonemann, as I severed contact with him, very early on and warned Margaret Barker to be wary. Her expertise is not in question but I believe she has been misled.
              2. I have been told by Hassan Saeda that they were given to him by his grandfather and came from near the Israel/Jordan border.
              3. Yes this item is part of the cache and I have seen it. Whether it was copied from the museum, or the original funery display I cannot say. But, if the material is genuine, and the jury is still out on that, I date them to the 2nd century Bar Kochbar period so it would have been accessible to the original makers.
              4. Philip Davies is quoted in the newspapers and on the BBC as believing the material is authentic and very early Christian in origin. I do not know if he was correctly quoted. I have had nothing to do with the group Elkington consulted (apart from talking with Margaret Barker), so I do not know if Professor Davies has examined actual samples - although I would doubt it- he has probably only seen photographs of this particular item. They did, it appears have access to actual samples of some of the sheets.

              Hope this helps.
              Robert Feather, London




              [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
            • Jack Kilmon
              This appears to be a case where someone with a BA in art is promoted to an archaeologist and a religious archaeologist and an Egyptologist by the press.
              Message 6 of 8 , Apr 6, 2011
              • 0 Attachment
                This appears to be a case where someone with a BA in art is promoted to an
                "archaeologist" and a "religious archaeologist" and an "Egyptologist" by the
                press. No one with any credentialed expertise in any of the disciplines
                required to analyze these things, Semitists, materials analysts,
                paleographers, or a real, genuine, fedora wearing archaeologist, has been
                asked on the "team" headed by a guy who analyzes things through earth's
                vibrations. They appear to me, from the few pictures I have seen, to be a
                mosaic harvested from epigraphy and ancient coinage. I am sure the book and
                the film, probably already under contract with Simcha, will "expose" a
                conspiracy among scholars to suppress the the "greatest discovery since the
                Dead Sea Scrolls."

                Jack Kilmon
                San Antonio, TX

                -----Original Message-----
                From: Trudy Kawami
                Sent: Wednesday, April 06, 2011 1:00 PM
                To: ANE-2@yahoogroups.com
                Subject: [ANE-2] Re: Lead Codices

                What is interesting in this exchange of comments is the frequency of words
                like "believe," "believing", "would have been" (interesting conditional
                there), "have been told" and similar terms. There is no objective
                description of the corrosion products, no statement of the parameters of the
                tests, no mention of XRF analysis or any other commonly used & accepted
                analytical procedure for assessing the "life" of a piece of metal. Instead
                we appear to have scholars of religion and language who couldn't tell cast
                metal from hammered (let alone copper alloy from lead) hoping/believing
                something is authentic - bad science (& bad logic). Add to this the
                approach of the Easter season, you can see the red flags of super-hype
                flying.
                Willing suspension of dis-belief is fine for the theater, but really
                inappropriate in scholarship.

                Trudy S. Kawami, PhD
                Director of Research
                Arthur M. Sackler Foundation
                461 East 57th Street
                New York, NY 10022
                212-980-5400 X25
                www.arthurmsacklerfdn.org

                From: ANE-2@yahoogroups.com [mailto:ANE-2@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of
                a8oct@...
                Sent: Tuesday, April 05, 2011 10:51 AM
                To: ANE-2@yahoogroups.com
                Subject: [ANE-2] Re: Lead Codices



                Dear Russell,
                I will try and clarify.
                1. I do not know what Elkington showed to Peter Thonemann, as I severed
                contact with him, very early on and warned Margaret Barker to be wary. Her
                expertise is not in question but I believe she has been misled.
                2. I have been told by Hassan Saeda that they were given to him by his
                grandfather and came from near the Israel/Jordan border.
                3. Yes this item is part of the cache and I have seen it. Whether it was
                copied from the museum, or the original funery display I cannot say. But, if
                the material is genuine, and the jury is still out on that, I date them to
                the 2nd century Bar Kochbar period so it would have been accessible to the
                original makers.
                4. Philip Davies is quoted in the newspapers and on the BBC as believing the
                material is authentic and very early Christian in origin. I do not know if
                he was correctly quoted. I have had nothing to do with the group Elkington
                consulted (apart from talking with Margaret Barker), so I do not know if
                Professor Davies has examined actual samples - although I would doubt it- he
                has probably only seen photographs of this particular item. They did, it
                appears have access to actual samples of some of the sheets.

                Hope this helps.
                Robert Feather, London




                [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]



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