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Re: [ANE-2] Re: New publication

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  • Peter T. Daniels
    Why is material like the following permitted to be posted on ANE List? Even I, coming from a peripheral field of study, can identify the fallacies in the
    Message 1 of 11 , Apr 4, 2011
      Why is material like the following permitted to be posted on ANE List?

      Even I, coming from a peripheral field of study, can identify the fallacies in
      the "argument."

      My comments interpolated in [ ].
      ________________________________
      From: Robert Deutsch <rd@...>
      To: ANE-2@yahoogroups.com
      Sent: Mon, April 4, 2011 9:28:32 AM
      Subject: [ANE-2] Re: New publication

      [Setting aside the account of the specific materials presented in this volume]
       
      All the items
      presented in this volume were meticulously
      examined by the author and were found genuine beyond any doubt.

      [Regardless of any qualifications the author may or may not have for making such
      a judgment, the simple fact that he stands to gain financially from the success
      of this publication (quite aside from whether he may have profited from the sale
      of any of them into the collection being described) renders him an interested
      party and thus utterly disqualified from making such a judgment the sole
      authority for their legitimization.]

      The recent tendency expressed by some scholars,
      to declare all unprovenanced epigraphic materials
      “questionable” and therefore worthless, is an
      approach which is to be unequivocally rejected.
      Such an attitude is rather destructive instead to
      adopt a constructive approach. The corpus of west
      Semitic epigraphic material unearthed in
      controlled excavations is significantly smaller
      than that from unprovenanced sources. Avoiding
      most of the historical information just because
      the material was found by non professional plunders

      [There is no such thing as a "professional plunder[er]."]

      is inconceivable.
      A proper analogously are the Dead Sea Scrolls
      which were looted by local Bedouins.

      [The DSS are not _in the slightest_ "analogous," whether "properly" or not. It
      would be absurd to imagine a forger forging items utterly unlike any items ever
      before found. (Moreover, the bulk of the DSS materials did not come from Bedouin
      loot.)]

      Today, no
      scientific biblical research can be even imagined
      without them. The same is valid concerning the
      14th century B.C.E. el-Amarna cuneiform letters.
      The majority of the clay tablets were found by
      farmers on the east bank of the Nile, about 300
      Km. south of Cairo and only a minority were
      uncovered by archaeologists.

      [The Amarna tablets are not _in the slightest_ "the same." It is inconceivable
      that a forger could have either composed the texts as they stand, or suggested
      that they had come from an archive in Egypt.]

      The letters, which
      are part of the diplomatic correspondence between
      the Egyptian royal court and the Canaanite
      city-kings, are records revealing invaluable
      historical information unknown from other
      sources. Such documents can not be ignored simply
      because were not found in methodological excavations.

      [When they were found, there was no market for either turn-of-the-era biblical
      documents or ancient cuneiform tablets from Egypt. Today, however, the world
      seems to be filled with gullible "collectors" who will pay any price for
      artifacts that they are assured will bring them into contact with times and
      places that are of spiritual significance to them.

      [On a similar note, there's a little museum in Downpatrick, Ireland, with (when
      I saw it in 1992) a case of "cuneiform tablets" brought home by World War I
      soldiers who had purchased them during the Near Eastern campaign, and donated by
      their families. A cursory glance showed that they are nothing of the sort, but
      the purchasers wanted to believe that they could get such a thing. The situation
      is no different today, except that the manufacturers are more sophisticated.]

      The importance of this volume is self-evident and
      is to be considered as a rescue publications. Its
      permanent value will increase as time will pass
      and will serve as valuable reference book.

      Jerusalem, 2011
      ISBN 9657162173
      Hardcover, 317 pages
      All the pictures are in color

      Price: $ 120

      [Indeed. $120. If the work were published by a commercial publisher, the author
      would stand to receive $12 per copy sold at that price. Since no publisher is
      identified, it must be assumed that it is privately published, in which case the
      author stands to receive however much of the entire purchase price does not pay
      for the manufacture of the book.]
       --
      Peter T. Daniels grammatim@...
      Jersey City
    • Niels Peter Lemche
      Peter, you are right on one thing: If you take a look of the publisher http://www.archaeological-center.com/ you find ... Robert Deutsch. Otherwise it is about
      Message 2 of 11 , Apr 4, 2011
        Peter, you are right on one thing: If you take a look of the publisher http://www.archaeological-center.com/ you find ... Robert Deutsch.

        Otherwise it is about an argument of pressing importance, because these archaologists mentioned (such as David Ussishkin) simply says that this is the only way to stop forgerers: not to accept anything of uncertain origins.

        Examples from say the time until 1950 are different. Forgerers did not dispose of the techhniques of today, and it is quite easy to expose most forgeries (although well-established scholars have been cheated by, e.g., the Paraiba inscription).

        However, it is also an announcement of a book in the field and therefore falls within the accepted rules of ANE-2.

        Niels Peter Lemche



        -----Oprindelig meddelelse-----
        Fra: ANE-2@yahoogroups.com [mailto:ANE-2@yahoogroups.com] På vegne af Peter T. Daniels
        Sendt: den 4 april 2011 15:53
        Til: ANE-2@yahoogroups.com
        Emne: Re: [ANE-2] Re: New publication

        Why is material like the following permitted to be posted on ANE List?

        Even I, coming from a peripheral field of study, can identify the fallacies in
        the "argument."

        My comments interpolated in [ ].
        ________________________________
        From: Robert Deutsch <rd@...>
        To: ANE-2@yahoogroups.com
        Sent: Mon, April 4, 2011 9:28:32 AM
        Subject: [ANE-2] Re: New publication

        [Setting aside the account of the specific materials presented in this volume]
         
        All the items
        presented in this volume were meticulously
        examined by the author and were found genuine beyond any doubt.

        [Regardless of any qualifications the author may or may not have for making such
        a judgment, the simple fact that he stands to gain financially from the success
        of this publication (quite aside from whether he may have profited from the sale
        of any of them into the collection being described) renders him an interested
        party and thus utterly disqualified from making such a judgment the sole
        authority for their legitimization.]

        The recent tendency expressed by some scholars,
        to declare all unprovenanced epigraphic materials
        “questionable” and therefore worthless, is an
        approach which is to be unequivocally rejected.
        Such an attitude is rather destructive instead to
        adopt a constructive approach. The corpus of west
        Semitic epigraphic material unearthed in
        controlled excavations is significantly smaller
        than that from unprovenanced sources. Avoiding
        most of the historical information just because
        the material was found by non professional plunders

        [There is no such thing as a "professional plunder[er]."]

        is inconceivable.
        A proper analogously are the Dead Sea Scrolls
        which were looted by local Bedouins.

        [The DSS are not _in the slightest_ "analogous," whether "properly" or not. It
        would be absurd to imagine a forger forging items utterly unlike any items ever
        before found. (Moreover, the bulk of the DSS materials did not come from Bedouin
        loot.)]

        Today, no
        scientific biblical research can be even imagined
        without them. The same is valid concerning the
        14th century B.C.E. el-Amarna cuneiform letters.
        The majority of the clay tablets were found by
        farmers on the east bank of the Nile, about 300
        Km. south of Cairo and only a minority were
        uncovered by archaeologists.

        [The Amarna tablets are not _in the slightest_ "the same." It is inconceivable
        that a forger could have either composed the texts as they stand, or suggested
        that they had come from an archive in Egypt.]

        The letters, which
        are part of the diplomatic correspondence between
        the Egyptian royal court and the Canaanite
        city-kings, are records revealing invaluable
        historical information unknown from other
        sources. Such documents can not be ignored simply
        because were not found in methodological excavations.

        [When they were found, there was no market for either turn-of-the-era biblical
        documents or ancient cuneiform tablets from Egypt. Today, however, the world
        seems to be filled with gullible "collectors" who will pay any price for
        artifacts that they are assured will bring them into contact with times and
        places that are of spiritual significance to them.

        [On a similar note, there's a little museum in Downpatrick, Ireland, with (when
        I saw it in 1992) a case of "cuneiform tablets" brought home by World War I
        soldiers who had purchased them during the Near Eastern campaign, and donated by
        their families. A cursory glance showed that they are nothing of the sort, but
        the purchasers wanted to believe that they could get such a thing. The situation
        is no different today, except that the manufacturers are more sophisticated.]

        The importance of this volume is self-evident and
        is to be considered as a rescue publications. Its
        permanent value will increase as time will pass
        and will serve as valuable reference book.

        Jerusalem, 2011
        ISBN 9657162173
        Hardcover, 317 pages
        All the pictures are in color

        Price: $ 120

        [Indeed. $120. If the work were published by a commercial publisher, the author
        would stand to receive $12 per copy sold at that price. Since no publisher is
        identified, it must be assumed that it is privately published, in which case the
        author stands to receive however much of the entire purchase price does not pay
        for the manufacture of the book.]
         --
        Peter T. Daniels grammatim@...
        Jersey City


        ------------------------------------

        Yahoo! Groups Links
      • Peter T. Daniels
        Not long ago, B. Porten spoke on the results of statistical analysis of the hundreds of looted Aramaic ostraca that have recently been published on behalf of
        Message 3 of 11 , Apr 4, 2011
          Not long ago, B. Porten spoke on the results of statistical analysis of the
          hundreds of looted Aramaic ostraca that have recently been published on behalf
          of the collectors who encouraged the destruction of their context. (Their
          content is so dull, and inscrutable except in the aggregate, that it's virtually
          impossible they are forgeries.) How much more they could tell us if their
          finders had taken the (Jordanian? Palestinian?) archeological authorities to
          their findspot for controlled excavation and, say, received a legitimate
          "finders' fee" for their service.

          How is this different from the arguments that have, for the moment, given a
          legal reprieve to the Persepolis tablets in Chicago?

          (He also notes that epigraphers like Lemaire and Naveh, not having had access to
          the corpus as a whole, make significant reading errors, but that's a different
          matter.)
           --
          Peter T. Daniels grammatim@...
          Jersey City


          >
          >From: Niels Peter Lemche <npl@...>
          >To: "ANE-2@yahoogroups.com" <ANE-2@yahoogroups.com>
          >Sent: Mon, April 4, 2011 12:54:09 PM
          >Subject: SV: [ANE-2] Re: New publication
          >

          >Peter, you are right on one thing: If you take a look of the publisher
          >http://www.archaeological-center.com/ you find ... Robert Deutsch.
          >
          >
          >Otherwise it is about an argument of pressing importance, because these
          >archaologists mentioned (such as David Ussishkin) simply says that this is the
          >only way to stop forgerers: not to accept anything of uncertain origins.
          >
          >
          >Examples from say the time until 1950 are different. Forgerers did not dispose
          >of the techhniques of today, and it is quite easy to expose most forgeries
          >(although well-established scholars have been cheated by, e.g., the Paraiba
          >inscription).
          >
          >
          >However, it is also an announcement of a book in the field and therefore falls
          >within the accepted rules of ANE-2.
          >
          >
          >Niels Peter Lemche
          >
          >
          >
          >-----Oprindelig meddelelse-----
          >Fra: ANE-2@yahoogroups.com [mailto:ANE-2@yahoogroups.com] På vegne af Peter T.
          >Daniels
          >
          >Sendt: den 4 april 2011 15:53
          >Til: ANE-2@yahoogroups.com
          >Emne: Re: [ANE-2] Re: New publication
          >
          >Why is material like the following permitted to be posted on ANE List?
          >
          >Even I, coming from a peripheral field of study, can identify the fallacies in
          >the "argument."
          >
          >My comments interpolated in [ ].
          >________________________________
          >From: Robert Deutsch <rd@...>
          >To: ANE-2@yahoogroups.com
          >Sent: Mon, April 4, 2011 9:28:32 AM
          >Subject: [ANE-2] Re: New publication
          >
          >[Setting aside the account of the specific materials presented in this volume]

          >All the items
          >presented in this volume were meticulously
          >examined by the author and were found genuine beyond any doubt.
          >
          >[Regardless of any qualifications the author may or may not have for making such
          >
          >a judgment, the simple fact that he stands to gain financially from the success

          >of this publication (quite aside from whether he may have profited from the sale
          >
          >of any of them into the collection being described) renders him an interested
          >party and thus utterly disqualified from making such a judgment the sole
          >authority for their legitimization.]
          >
          >The recent tendency expressed by some scholars,
          >to declare all unprovenanced epigraphic materials
          >“questionable” and therefore worthless, is an
          >approach which is to be unequivocally rejected.
          >Such an attitude is rather destructive instead to
          >adopt a constructive approach. The corpus of west
          >Semitic epigraphic material unearthed in
          >controlled excavations is significantly smaller
          >than that from unprovenanced sources. Avoiding
          >most of the historical information just because
          >the material was found by non professional plunders
          >
          >[There is no such thing as a "professional plunder[er]."]
          >
          >is inconceivable.
          >A proper analogously are the Dead Sea Scrolls
          >which were looted by local Bedouins.
          >
          >[The DSS are not _in the slightest_ "analogous," whether "properly" or not. It
          >would be absurd to imagine a forger forging items utterly unlike any items ever

          >before found. (Moreover, the bulk of the DSS materials did not come from Bedouin
          >
          >loot.)]
          >
          >Today, no
          >scientific biblical research can be even imagined
          >without them. The same is valid concerning the
          >14th century B.C.E. el-Amarna cuneiform letters.
          >The majority of the clay tablets were found by
          >farmers on the east bank of the Nile, about 300
          >Km. south of Cairo and only a minority were
          >uncovered by archaeologists.
          >
          >[The Amarna tablets are not _in the slightest_ "the same." It is inconceivable
          >that a forger could have either composed the texts as they stand, or suggested
          >that they had come from an archive in Egypt.]
          >
          >The letters, which
          >are part of the diplomatic correspondence between
          >the Egyptian royal court and the Canaanite
          >city-kings, are records revealing invaluable
          >historical information unknown from other
          >sources. Such documents can not be ignored simply
          >because were not found in methodological excavations.
          >
          >[When they were found, there was no market for either turn-of-the-era biblical
          >documents or ancient cuneiform tablets from Egypt. Today, however, the world
          >seems to be filled with gullible "collectors" who will pay any price for
          >artifacts that they are assured will bring them into contact with times and
          >places that are of spiritual significance to them.
          >
          >[On a similar note, there's a little museum in Downpatrick, Ireland, with (when

          >I saw it in 1992) a case of "cuneiform tablets" brought home by World War I
          >soldiers who had purchased them during the Near Eastern campaign, and donated by
          >
          >their families. A cursory glance showed that they are nothing of the sort, but
          >the purchasers wanted to believe that they could get such a thing. The situation
          >
          >is no different today, except that the manufacturers are more sophisticated.]
          >
          >The importance of this volume is self-evident and
          >is to be considered as a rescue publications. Its
          >permanent value will increase as time will pass
          >and will serve as valuable reference book.
          >
          >Jerusalem, 2011
          >ISBN 9657162173
          >Hardcover, 317 pages
          >All the pictures are in color
          >
          >Price: $ 120
          >
          >[Indeed. $120. If the work were published by a commercial publisher, the author

          >would stand to receive $12 per copy sold at that price. Since no publisher is
          >identified, it must be assumed that it is privately published, in which case the
          >
          >author stands to receive however much of the entire purchase price does not pay

          >for the manufacture of the book.]
          > --
          >Peter T. Daniels grammatim@...
          >Jersey City
          >
          >
          >------------------------------------
          >
          >Yahoo! Groups Links
          >
          >
          >
          >
          >

          [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
        • a8oct@btopenworld.com
          ... Is it not just possible that the sightings you refer to are from people who have acquired some of the find? The JAA had apparently seen some examples and
          Message 4 of 11 , Apr 5, 2011
            --- In ANE-2@yahoogroups.com, Robert Deutsch <rd@...> wrote:
            >
            > This is ridiculous and embarrassing how serious "experts" are
            > considering the authenticity of such foolish fakes.
            > The antiquities dealers in Israel are bombarded in the last 15 years
            > with such "booklets", which are poured from Jordan,
            > west of the land of Ali Baba. Yes, The Ali Baba Codices.
            >
            > Robert Deutsch
            > Tel Aviv
            >
            > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
            >
            Is it not just possible that the sightings you refer to are from people who have 'acquired' some of the find? The JAA had apparently seen some examples and thought them fakes, but no-one did any serious testing of them. Since then extensive metallurgical tests have been performed by Oxford Materials Laboratory and elsewhere and the opinion of Dr Peter Northover is that they were not modern castings. Several professors, who have studied examples, have said they think they are genuine. How do you explain reports that the Director of Jordan's Department of Antiquities, Ziad al-Saad, now thinks they are genuine and wants them back? If they are so prolific in the market place, has Robert Deutsch seen any examples? Does he know of any actual dealers who have seen them? If so when and where? How did he or they know what he or they saw were fakes or genuine?
            Robert Feather, London
          • Robert Deutsch
            This is ridiculous and embarrassing how serious experts are considering the authenticity of such foolish fakes. The antiquities dealers in Israel are
            Message 5 of 11 , Apr 5, 2011
              This is ridiculous and embarrassing how serious "experts" are
              considering the authenticity of such foolish fakes.
              The antiquities dealers in Israel are bombarded in the last 15 years
              with such "booklets", which are poured from Jordan,
              west of the land of Ali Baba. Yes, The Ali Baba Codices.

              Robert Deutsch
              Tel Aviv

              [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
            • Robert
              Dear Mr. Feather I saw at least 15 such chimeras I will give a short description of some highlights from the iconography depicted on several codices for the
              Message 6 of 11 , Apr 5, 2011
                Dear Mr. Feather

                I saw at least 15 such chimeras

                I will give a short description of some highlights from the iconography depicted on several "codices" for the "scholars" which are not familiar with numismatics.

                On a single leaf one can find: the head of Alexander the great copied,
                or impressed from a coin of his general Lysimachos, a palm tree from the coins of Bar Kokhba and Cartage, the eight pointed stars from the Jewish coins of Alexander Yannay and Hellenistic coins of the Seleucus, the bust of Domitianus from the administration coins minted in Judaea, The "inscriptions" are copied from the Hasmonean and Bar Kokhba coins, inscribed in straight and mirror shape, not to mention Gibberish in greek.

                Some of the leafs are impressed by a mechanical device and some made by hand, All are sealed with nails, some made of iron.

                No patina or corrosion is detected on them, but only an artificial brown color. An expert who is familiar with lead rust doesn't need more than 10 seconds with a magnifying glass to find out the fraud.

                Let me end with a comment I made a short time ago on Jim West's Web site:
                "Scholars are contaminating their academic records with lead poison".

                What can I add - the name of Jesus was called in vain.

                Robert Deutsch
                Herzliah



                --- In ANE-2@yahoogroups.com, "a8oct@..." <a8oct@...> wrote:
                >
                >
                >
                > --- In ANE-2@yahoogroups.com, Robert Deutsch <rd@> wrote:
                > >
                > > This is ridiculous and embarrassing how serious "experts" are
                > > considering the authenticity of such foolish fakes.
                > > The antiquities dealers in Israel are bombarded in the last 15 years
                > > with such "booklets", which are poured from Jordan,
                > > west of the land of Ali Baba. Yes, The Ali Baba Codices.
                > >
                > > Robert Deutsch
                > > Tel Aviv
                > >
                > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                > >
                > Is it not just possible that the sightings you refer to are from people who have 'acquired' some of the find? The JAA had apparently seen some examples and thought them fakes, but no-one did any serious testing of them. Since then extensive metallurgical tests have been performed by Oxford Materials Laboratory and elsewhere and the opinion of Dr Peter Northover is that they were not modern castings. Several professors, who have studied examples, have said they think they are genuine. How do you explain reports that the Director of Jordan's Department of Antiquities, Ziad al-Saad, now thinks they are genuine and wants them back? If they are so prolific in the market place, has Robert Deutsch seen any examples? Does he know of any actual dealers who have seen them? If so when and where? How did he or they know what he or they saw were fakes or genuine?
                > Robert Feather, London
                >
              • a8oct@btopenworld.com
                Dear Mr Deutsch, I appreciate your response. I assume your chimeras are not fire-eating female monsters, but was more interested in where you saw examples of
                Message 7 of 11 , Apr 6, 2011
                  Dear Mr Deutsch,
                  I appreciate your response. I assume your 'chimeras' are not fire-eating female monsters, but was more interested in where you saw examples of the Lead Codices and more specific names of dealers and when you saw them.


                  You are an acknowledged world expert on inscriptions and bullae and I agree absolutely that many of the images on the codices are taken from coins and extant imagery from the Hellenistic to 2nd Temple period and beyond to the 2nd century CE. Interestingly no coin impressions after the Bar Kochbar period are seen.

                  My expertise is in metallurgy and whilst some of the material shows little sign of corrosion, others I have personally examined definitely do.

                  I am mindful that I have expressed the view that some of the materials that I have had a chance to examine are probably genuine. The flip side of that is that some I have seen could well be items that have entered the collection and not come from the cave source. Other items I have not seen, but only been told about or seen photographs of, I obviously cannot certify as genuine.

                  The two books I have studied in the laboratory and had Mass Spectrometry testing performed on, are in my opinion and the opinion of Dr Peter Northover, Head of Oxford Materials Laboratory, of very old provenance and not modern remelted material. Visually the corrosion products on these two books are strongly indicative of aging that has taken place over a long period. My position has always been cautious, saying much more work needed to be done to know what the codices were saying and to verify their possible authenticity.

                  As to the presence of Jesus and possible images of Him, this, of course, is wild speculation, and I have never made such a suggestion. This is all journalistic exploitation for Easter!

                  If some of the material is authentic, in my view, it relates to the 2nd century CE and Jewish activities - perhaps related to Bar Kochbar.

                  Robert Feather, London


                  --- In ANE-2@yahoogroups.com, "Robert" <rd@...> wrote:
                  >
                  > Dear Mr. Feather
                  >
                  > I saw at least 15 such chimeras
                  >
                  > I will give a short description of some highlights from the iconography depicted on several "codices" for the "scholars" which are not familiar with numismatics.
                  >
                  > On a single leaf one can find: the head of Alexander the great copied,
                  > or impressed from a coin of his general Lysimachos, a palm tree from the coins of Bar Kokhba and Cartage, the eight pointed stars from the Jewish coins of Alexander Yannay and Hellenistic coins of the Seleucus, the bust of Domitianus from the administration coins minted in Judaea, The "inscriptions" are copied from the Hasmonean and Bar Kokhba coins, inscribed in straight and mirror shape, not to mention Gibberish in greek.
                  >
                  > Some of the leafs are impressed by a mechanical device and some made by hand, All are sealed with nails, some made of iron.
                  >
                  > No patina or corrosion is detected on them, but only an artificial brown color. An expert who is familiar with lead rust doesn't need more than 10 seconds with a magnifying glass to find out the fraud.
                  >
                  > Let me end with a comment I made a short time ago on Jim West's Web site:
                  > "Scholars are contaminating their academic records with lead poison".
                  >
                  > What can I add - the name of Jesus was called in vain.
                  >
                  > Robert Deutsch
                  > Herzliah
                  >
                  >
                  >
                  > --- In ANE-2@yahoogroups.com, "a8oct@" <a8oct@> wrote:
                  > >
                  > >
                  > >
                  > > --- In ANE-2@yahoogroups.com, Robert Deutsch <rd@> wrote:
                  > > >
                  > > > This is ridiculous and embarrassing how serious "experts" are
                  > > > considering the authenticity of such foolish fakes.
                  > > > The antiquities dealers in Israel are bombarded in the last 15 years
                  > > > with such "booklets", which are poured from Jordan,
                  > > > west of the land of Ali Baba. Yes, The Ali Baba Codices.
                  > > >
                  > > > Robert Deutsch
                  > > > Tel Aviv
                  > > >
                  > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                  > > >
                  > > Is it not just possible that the sightings you refer to are from people who have 'acquired' some of the find? The JAA had apparently seen some examples and thought them fakes, but no-one did any serious testing of them. Since then extensive metallurgical tests have been performed by Oxford Materials Laboratory and elsewhere and the opinion of Dr Peter Northover is that they were not modern castings. Several professors, who have studied examples, have said they think they are genuine. How do you explain reports that the Director of Jordan's Department of Antiquities, Ziad al-Saad, now thinks they are genuine and wants them back? If they are so prolific in the market place, has Robert Deutsch seen any examples? Does he know of any actual dealers who have seen them? If so when and where? How did he or they know what he or they saw were fakes or genuine?
                  > > Robert Feather, London
                  > >
                  >
                • tom_verenna
                  At this point we have to accept that, based on just prima facie evidence (pictures provided by the media and so forth), that the images we are supplied with
                  Message 8 of 11 , Apr 6, 2011
                    At this point we have to accept that, based on just prima facie evidence
                    (pictures provided by the media and so forth), that the images we are
                    supplied with are indeed fakes. I don't know who stated these were
                    'genuine' but I can tell you it was not Philip. And I know that
                    Margaret has not seen the tablets first hand (she has said as much
                    herself) and both her and Philip had not been told that the one tablet
                    which has been verified as part of the collection was indeed modern.

                    The evidence is so strong at present that the tablets we have seen are
                    fakes that I suspect when the other tablets are 'released' in whatever
                    money-making scheme Elkington has in store, they will be discovered as
                    modern as well.

                    Tom Verenna, Philadelphia

                    --- In ANE-2@yahoogroups.com, "Robert" <rd@...> wrote:
                    >
                    > Dear Mr. Feather
                    >
                    > I saw at least 15 such chimeras
                    >
                    > I will give a short description of some highlights from the
                    iconography depicted on several "codices" for the "scholars" which are
                    not familiar with numismatics.
                    >
                    > On a single leaf one can find: the head of Alexander the great copied,
                    > or impressed from a coin of his general Lysimachos, a palm tree from
                    the coins of Bar Kokhba and Cartage, the eight pointed stars from the
                    Jewish coins of Alexander Yannay and Hellenistic coins of the Seleucus,
                    the bust of Domitianus from the administration coins minted in Judaea,
                    The "inscriptions" are copied from the Hasmonean and Bar Kokhba coins,
                    inscribed in straight and mirror shape, not to mention Gibberish in
                    greek.
                    >
                    > Some of the leafs are impressed by a mechanical device and some made
                    by hand, All are sealed with nails, some made of iron.
                    >
                    > No patina or corrosion is detected on them, but only an artificial
                    brown color. An expert who is familiar with lead rust doesn't need more
                    than 10 seconds with a magnifying glass to find out the fraud.
                    >
                    > Let me end with a comment I made a short time ago on Jim West's Web
                    site:
                    > "Scholars are contaminating their academic records with lead poison".
                    >
                    > What can I add - the name of Jesus was called in vain.
                    >
                    > Robert Deutsch
                    > Herzliah
                    >
                    >
                    >
                    > --- In ANE-2@yahoogroups.com, "a8oct@" a8oct@ wrote:
                    > >
                    > >
                    > >
                    > > --- In ANE-2@yahoogroups.com, Robert Deutsch <rd@> wrote:
                    > > >
                    > > > This is ridiculous and embarrassing how serious "experts" are
                    > > > considering the authenticity of such foolish fakes.
                    > > > The antiquities dealers in Israel are bombarded in the last 15
                    years
                    > > > with such "booklets", which are poured from Jordan,
                    > > > west of the land of Ali Baba. Yes, The Ali Baba Codices.
                    > > >
                    > > > Robert Deutsch
                    > > > Tel Aviv
                    > > >
                    > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                    > > >
                    > > Is it not just possible that the sightings you refer to are from
                    people who have 'acquired' some of the find? The JAA had apparently seen
                    some examples and thought them fakes, but no-one did any serious testing
                    of them. Since then extensive metallurgical tests have been performed
                    by Oxford Materials Laboratory and elsewhere and the opinion of Dr Peter
                    Northover is that they were not modern castings. Several professors, who
                    have studied examples, have said they think they are genuine. How do you
                    explain reports that the Director of Jordan's Department of Antiquities,
                    Ziad al-Saad, now thinks they are genuine and wants them back? If they
                    are so prolific in the market place, has Robert Deutsch seen any
                    examples? Does he know of any actual dealers who have seen them? If so
                    when and where? How did he or they know what he or they saw were fakes
                    or genuine?
                    > > Robert Feather, London
                    > >
                    >



                    [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                  • Joe Zias
                    They are of such poor quality I m surprised that anyone bought the story. On the other hand it s always the biblical acholars who fall for this stuff as dirt
                    Message 9 of 11 , Apr 6, 2011
                      They are of such poor quality I'm surprised that anyone bought the story. On the other hand it's always the biblical acholars who fall for this stuff as dirt archaeologists, museum curators, dealers can usually spot these items as forgeries a mile away. Moreover, look at the names of those involved, at times it's a dead giveaway.

                      Joe

                      Joe Zias www.joezias.com
                      Anthropology/Paleopathology

                      Science and Antiquity Group - Jerusalem
                      Jerusalem, Israel

                      --- On Wed, 4/6/11, tom_verenna <tsverenna@...> wrote:

                      From: tom_verenna <tsverenna@...>
                      Subject: [ANE-2] Re: Lead Codice
                      To: ANE-2@yahoogroups.com
                      Date: Wednesday, April 6, 2011, 8:24 AM







                       









                      At this point we have to accept that, based on just prima facie evidence

                      (pictures provided by the media and so forth), that the images we are

                      supplied with are indeed fakes. I don't know who stated these were

                      'genuine' but I can tell you it was not Philip. And I know that

                      Margaret has not seen the tablets first hand (she has said as much

                      herself) and both her and Philip had not been told that the one tablet

                      which has been verified as part of the collection was indeed modern.



                      The evidence is so strong at present that the tablets we have seen are

                      fakes that I suspect when the other tablets are 'released' in whatever

                      money-making scheme Elkington has in store, they will be discovered as

                      modern as well.



                      Tom Verenna, Philadelphia



                      --- In ANE-2@yahoogroups.com, "Robert" <rd@...> wrote:

                      >

                      > Dear Mr. Feather

                      >

                      > I saw at least 15 such chimeras

                      >

                      > I will give a short description of some highlights from the

                      iconography depicted on several "codices" for the "scholars" which are

                      not familiar with numismatics.

                      >

                      > On a single leaf one can find: the head of Alexander the great copied,

                      > or impressed from a coin of his general Lysimachos, a palm tree from

                      the coins of Bar Kokhba and Cartage, the eight pointed stars from the

                      Jewish coins of Alexander Yannay and Hellenistic coins of the Seleucus,

                      the bust of Domitianus from the administration coins minted in Judaea,

                      The "inscriptions" are copied from the Hasmonean and Bar Kokhba coins,

                      inscribed in straight and mirror shape, not to mention Gibberish in

                      greek.

                      >

                      > Some of the leafs are impressed by a mechanical device and some made

                      by hand, All are sealed with nails, some made of iron.

                      >

                      > No patina or corrosion is detected on them, but only an artificial

                      brown color. An expert who is familiar with lead rust doesn't need more

                      than 10 seconds with a magnifying glass to find out the fraud.

                      >

                      > Let me end with a comment I made a short time ago on Jim West's Web

                      site:

                      > "Scholars are contaminating their academic records with lead poison".

                      >

                      > What can I add - the name of Jesus was called in vain.

                      >

                      > Robert Deutsch

                      > Herzliah

                      >

                      >

                      >

                      > --- In ANE-2@yahoogroups.com, "a8oct@" a8oct@ wrote:

                      > >

                      > >

                      > >

                      > > --- In ANE-2@yahoogroups.com, Robert Deutsch <rd@> wrote:

                      > > >

                      > > > This is ridiculous and embarrassing how serious "experts" are

                      > > > considering the authenticity of such foolish fakes.

                      > > > The antiquities dealers in Israel are bombarded in the last 15

                      years

                      > > > with such "booklets", which are poured from Jordan,

                      > > > west of the land of Ali Baba. Yes, The Ali Baba Codices.

                      > > >

                      > > > Robert Deutsch

                      > > > Tel Aviv

                      > > >

                      > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

                      > > >

                      > > Is it not just possible that the sightings you refer to are from

                      people who have 'acquired' some of the find? The JAA had apparently seen

                      some examples and thought them fakes, but no-one did any serious testing

                      of them. Since then extensive metallurgical tests have been performed

                      by Oxford Materials Laboratory and elsewhere and the opinion of Dr Peter

                      Northover is that they were not modern castings. Several professors, who

                      have studied examples, have said they think they are genuine. How do you

                      explain reports that the Director of Jordan's Department of Antiquities,

                      Ziad al-Saad, now thinks they are genuine and wants them back? If they

                      are so prolific in the market place, has Robert Deutsch seen any

                      examples? Does he know of any actual dealers who have seen them? If so

                      when and where? How did he or they know what he or they saw were fakes

                      or genuine?

                      > > Robert Feather, London

                      > >

                      >



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