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Re: [ANE-2] Question about sacrifice

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  • George F Somsel
    There seems to be a clear distinction made in 1 Sam regarding the treatment of sacrifice.  On the one hand it would appear that (much, most, all) of the
    Message 1 of 9 , Feb 6, 2011
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      There seems to be a clear distinction made in 1 Sam regarding the treatment of
      sacrifice.  On the one hand it would appear that (much, most, all) of the
      sacrifices were boiled, but Eli's son's desired roast meat rather than boiled. 


       
       
      1 Samuel 2:11–17
      11 וַיֵּלֶךְ אֶלְקָנָה הָרָמָתָה עַל־בֵּיתוֹ וְהַנַּעַר הָיָה מְשָׁרֵת אֶת־יהוה
      אֶת־פְּנֵי עֵלִי הַכֹּהֵן׃

      12 וּבְנֵי עֵלִי בְּנֵי בְלִיָּעַל לֹא יָדְעוּ אֶת־יהוה׃
      13 וּמִשְׁפַּט הַכֹּהֲנִים אֶת־הָעָם כָּל־אִישׁ זֹבֵחַ זֶבַח וּבָא נַעַר
      הַכֹּהֵן כְּבַשֵּׁל הַבָּשָׂר וְהַמַּזְלֵג שְׁלֹשׁ־הַשִּׁנַּיִם בְּיָדוֹ׃

      14 וְהִכָּה בַכִּיּוֹר אוֹ בַדּוּד אוֹ בַקַּלַּחַת אוֹ בַפָּרוּר כֹּל אֲשֶׁר
      יַעֲלֶה הַמַּזְלֵג יִקַּח הַכֹּהֵן בּוֹ כָּכָה יַעֲשׂוּ לְכָל־יִשְׂרָאֵל
      הַבָּאִים שָׁם בְּשִׁלֹה׃

      15 גַּם בְּטֶרֶם יַקְטִרוּן אֶת־הַחֵלֶב וּבָא נַעַר הַכֹּהֵן וְאָמַר לָאִישׁ
      הַזֹּבֵחַ תְּנָה בָשָׂר לִצְלוֹת לַכֹּהֵן וְלֹא־יִקַּח מִמְּךָ בָּשָׂר מְבֻשָּׁל
      כִּי אִם־חָי׃

      16 וַיֹּאמֶר אֵלָיו הָאִישׁ קַטֵּר יַקְטִירוּן כַּיּוֹם הַחֵלֶב וְקַח־לְךָ
      כַּאֲשֶׁר תְּאַוֶּה נַפְשֶׁךָ וְאָמַר לוֹ כִּי עַתָּה תִתֵּן וְאִם־לֹא
      לָקַחְתִּי בְחָזְקָה׃

      17 וַתְּהִי חַטַּאת הַנְּעָרִים גְּדוֹלָה מְאֹד אֶת־פְּנֵי יהוה כִּי נִאֲצוּ
      הָאֲנָשִׁים אֵת מִנְחַת יהוה׃


      The question is whether at the time it was considered impious to roast the
      offering without it's having been boiled or whether the impiety lay in their
      excessive haste to obtain a portion of the offering.  It is almost certain that
      at other times the offering was roasted since it is referred to as a עֹלַה or a
      burnt offering just as Eli's sons demanded that they be given their portion
      first before the meat was boiled so that they could roast it (גַּם בְּטֶרֶם
      יַקְטִרוּן אֶת־הַחֵלֶב וּבָא נַעַר הַכֹּהֵן וְאָמַר לָאִישׁ הַזֹּבֵחַ תְּנָה
      בָשָׂר לִצְלוֹת לַכֹּהֵן).
      george
      gfsomsel


      … search for truth, hear truth,
      learn truth, love truth, speak the truth, hold the truth,
      defend the truth till death.


      - Jan Hus
      _________




      ________________________________
      From: David Hall <dqhall59@...>
      To: ANE-2@yahoogroups.com
      Sent: Sat, February 5, 2011 6:41:19 PM
      Subject: Re: [ANE-2] Question about sacrifice

       
      Hello Liz,

      The horned altar was in use since Minoan times on Santorini destroyed by
      volcanic eruption as early as the MBA.  I have read reports of altars on Crete
      with burnt bones in use as early as Minoan times.  I googled (google.com not
      google.co.uk) search words to see if someone could pick up any information about

      "Minoan altars burnt bones" and found there are scattered references
      online.  Altars and burnt bones on Greek islands north of Crete were reported in

      various archaeological publications.   

      Those who have worked translating the tablets of Ugarit insisted the people at
      Ras Shamra used "burnt offerings."  This may imply roasting rather than boiling
      meat in a cooking pot.  I am not an expert on the translation of Ugarit tablets,

      but some claimed phrases at Ugarit were parallel to Bible phrases.  Ugarit was
      destroyed in the first quarter of the 12th century BC before the Bible was
      written.

      Leonard Woolley mentioned a kitchen in the ziggurat at Ur where the food of the
      gods was cooked. 

      An altar with an ash pile next to it was reported by Haines at Nippur, but the
      dating of the altar is not certain.   This reference was from the unpublished
      Nippur field reports at the U. of Pennsylvania Museum of Archaeology
      and Anthropology Archives in Philadelphia.

      The Egyptians offered all sorts of food offerings.  As far as I know they have
      not been found to have made burnt offerings on altars, but did use incense in
      their temples.  Hatshetsup sent a naval expedition to acquire incense near the
      Horn of Africa. 

      David Q. Hall
      Falls Church, Virginia

        

      ________________________________
      From: Lisbeth S. Fried <lizfried@...>
      To: ANE-2@yahoogroups.com
      Sent: Fri, February 4, 2011 10:26:37 AM
      Subject: RE: [ANE-2] Question about sacrifice

       
      Hi Graham,

      That's a really good question, the author (maddingly) doesn't address the
      issue. I know that they also used animal sacrifice, but I'd have to assume
      that the animal was cooked on a stove or something so the carcass didn't
      come in contact with the fire. I mean the people weren't/aren't vegetarians,
      they ate/eat meat.

      I learned from a friend of mine that according to Homer the Greeks roasted
      their sacrifices on spits in a fire. My friend, Eric Orlin, says that they
      were influenced by Canaanite practice, not vice versa, but I don't know how
      he knows that.

      In any case, if the Egyptians cooked their sacrifices on a stove and then
      presented it to the gods, then that would explain why meat sacrifice was
      halted only at the Judean temple at Elephantine and not at the temple of
      Khnum, etc.

      Liz

      Lisbeth S. Fried, Ph.D.
      Visitng Scholar
      Department of Near Eastern Studies
      and the Frankel Center for Judaic Studies
      University of Michigan
      202 S. Thayer -- Room 4111
      Ann Arbor, MI 48104
      www.lizfried.com <http://www.lizfried.com/>

      _____

      From: ANE-2@yahoogroups.com [mailto:ANE-2@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of
      Graham Hagens
      Sent: Thursday, February 03, 2011 7:46 PM
      To: ANE-2@yahoogroups.com
      Subject: Re: [ANE-2] Question about sacrifice

      Liz: what does the author say about the sacrificial animal immolation
      carried out by Zoroastrians themselves? From what I have read there seems
      to be some uncertainty about those practices.

      Graham Hagens
      Hamilton, ON

      --- On Thu, 2/3/11, Lisbeth S. Fried <lizfried@...
      <mailto:lizfried%40umich.edu> > wrote:

      From: Lisbeth S. Fried <lizfried@... <mailto:lizfried%40umich.edu> >
      Subject: [ANE-2] Question about sacrifice
      To: ANE-2@yahoogroups.com <mailto:ANE-2%40yahoogroups.com>
      Date: Thursday, February 3, 2011, 12:28 PM

      Dear All,

      I'm reading an article now which suggests that the whole burnt offering in
      the temple of YHW at Elephantine was disallowed not because of any problem
      with it by the priests of YHWH in Jerusalem who only wanted worship there,
      but because of the Zoroastrian problem of contaminating fire with a dead
      animal.

      My question is, how was meat presented to the gods of Egypt, Babylon, Asia
      Minor etc? Were these meats cooked on top of a stove, so to speak, and not
      put directly in contact with the fire? Was Judah unique in this regard?

      Thanks for your help,

      Liz

      Lisbeth S. Fried, Ph.D.
      Department of Near Eastern Studies
      and the Frankel Center for Judaic Studies
      University of Michigan
      202 S. Thayer -- Room 4111
      Ann Arbor, MI 48104
      www.lizfried.com <http://www.lizfried.com/>

      [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

      [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

      [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

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      [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
    • Lampros F. Kallenos
      Is the Mycenean case relevant to the question? Yannis HAMILAKIS, Eleni KONSOLAKI Pigs for the Gods. Burnt Animal Sacrifices As Embodied Rituals At A Mycenaean
      Message 2 of 9 , Feb 7, 2011
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        Is the Mycenean case relevant to the question?


        Yannis HAMILAKIS, Eleni KONSOLAKI
        Pigs for the Gods. Burnt Animal Sacrifices As Embodied
        Rituals At A Mycenaean Sanctuary.
        Oxford Journal of Archaeology, 23(2) 2004 135–151
        http://corinth.sas.upenn.edu/dgr/sanctuaries/methana_aykon_animals.pdf


        Classics Doctoral Student Finds Bones that Prove Homer was
        Right About Sacrifices
        Date: Jan. 20, 2001
        http://www.uc.edu/news/burnt.htm


        Classics Doctoral Student Finds Bones That Prove Homer Was
        Right About Sacrifices
        Source: University Of Cincinnati
        Date: 2001-01-23
        http://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2001/01/010123074805.htm



        _____________________________
        Λάμπρος Φ. Καλλένος
        Ιδάλιον, Λευκωσία
        Κύπρος
        --
      • David Hall
        Liz, See:  Religious Texts from Ugarit, by N. Wyatt, 2nd edition, 2002, Sheffield Press. From tablet KTU 1.119 regarding religious duties during certain
        Message 3 of 9 , Feb 8, 2011
        • 0 Attachment
          Liz,

          See:  Religious Texts from Ugarit, by N. Wyatt, 2nd edition, 2002, Sheffield
          Press.

          From tablet KTU 1.119 regarding religious duties during certain months:

          pg. 418   "...in the house of sacrifice he will slaughter; and there shall be
          burnt in the altar room of Baal of Ugarit a lamb and a feral pigeon..."

          There are other recent sources available as well.  These sources are not easy to
          locate and few scholars are competent to comment in depth about the Ugaritic
          religious rituals.  Multiple scholars insisted there were "burnt offerings."

          David Q. Hall 
          Falls Church, Virginia

           



          ________________________________
          From: Lisbeth S. Fried <lizfried@...>
          To: ANE-2@yahoogroups.com
          Sent: Tue, February 8, 2011 12:59:13 PM
          Subject: RE: [ANE-2] Question about sacrifice

           
          Dear David,

          Thank you very much for this interesting report.

          Regarding the references in the Ugaritic material, I think the references are
          from the Aqht myth.

          I. 185 dbḥ ilm yšʿly , the sacrifice to the gods he offered up, which doesn’t
          say anything about how it was done, unfortunately.

          I think it’s right tho that in Egypt and Babylon the food was cooked in kitchens
          on stoves or in ovens, and then presented.

          Liz

          Lisbeth S. Fried, Ph.D.
          Ann Arbor, MI 48104
          www.lizfried.com <http://www.lizfried.com/>

          _____

          From: ANE-2@yahoogroups.com [mailto:ANE-2@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of David
          Hall
          Sent: Saturday, February 05, 2011 8:41 PM
          To: ANE-2@yahoogroups.com
          Subject: Re: [ANE-2] Question about sacrifice

          Hello Liz,

          The horned altar was in use since Minoan times on Santorini destroyed by
          volcanic eruption as early as the MBA. I have read reports of altars on Crete
          with burnt bones in use as early as Minoan times. I googled (google.com not
          google.co.uk) search words to see if someone could pick up any information about

          "Minoan altars burnt bones" and found there are scattered references
          online. Altars and burnt bones on Greek islands north of Crete were reported in
          various archaeological publications.

          Those who have worked translating the tablets of Ugarit insisted the people at
          Ras Shamra used "burnt offerings." This may imply roasting rather than boiling
          meat in a cooking pot. I am not an expert on the translation of Ugarit tablets,
          but some claimed phrases at Ugarit were parallel to Bible phrases. Ugarit was
          destroyed in the first quarter of the 12th century BC before the Bible was
          written.

          Leonard Woolley mentioned a kitchen in the ziggurat at Ur where the food of the
          gods was cooked.

          An altar with an ash pile next to it was reported by Haines at Nippur, but the
          dating of the altar is not certain. This reference was from the unpublished
          Nippur field reports at the U. of Pennsylvania Museum of Archaeology
          and Anthropology Archives in Philadelphia.

          The Egyptians offered all sorts of food offerings. As far as I know they have
          not been found to have made burnt offerings on altars, but did use incense in
          their temples. Hatshetsup sent a naval expedition to acquire incense near the
          Horn of Africa.

          David Q. Hall
          Falls Church, Virginia

          ________________________________
          From: Lisbeth S. Fried <lizfried@... <mailto:lizfried%40umich.edu> >
          To: ANE-2@yahoogroups.com <mailto:ANE-2%40yahoogroups.com>
          Sent: Fri, February 4, 2011 10:26:37 AM
          Subject: RE: [ANE-2] Question about sacrifice

          Hi Graham,

          That's a really good question, the author (maddingly) doesn't address the
          issue. I know that they also used animal sacrifice, but I'd have to assume
          that the animal was cooked on a stove or something so the carcass didn't
          come in contact with the fire. I mean the people weren't/aren't vegetarians,
          they ate/eat meat.

          I learned from a friend of mine that according to Homer the Greeks roasted
          their sacrifices on spits in a fire. My friend, Eric Orlin, says that they
          were influenced by Canaanite practice, not vice versa, but I don't know how
          he knows that.

          In any case, if the Egyptians cooked their sacrifices on a stove and then
          presented it to the gods, then that would explain why meat sacrifice was
          halted only at the Judean temple at Elephantine and not at the temple of
          Khnum, etc.

          Liz

          Lisbeth S. Fried, Ph.D.
          Visitng Scholar
          Department of Near Eastern Studies
          and the Frankel Center for Judaic Studies
          University of Michigan
          202 S. Thayer -- Room 4111
          Ann Arbor, MI 48104
          www.lizfried.com <http://www.lizfried.com/>

          _____

          From: ANE-2@yahoogroups.com <mailto:ANE-2%40yahoogroups.com>
          [mailto:ANE-2@yahoogroups.com <mailto:ANE-2%40yahoogroups.com> ] On Behalf Of
          Graham Hagens
          Sent: Thursday, February 03, 2011 7:46 PM
          To: ANE-2@yahoogroups.com <mailto:ANE-2%40yahoogroups.com>
          Subject: Re: [ANE-2] Question about sacrifice

          Liz: what does the author say about the sacrificial animal immolation
          carried out by Zoroastrians themselves? From what I have read there seems
          to be some uncertainty about those practices.

          Graham Hagens
          Hamilton, ON

          --- On Thu, 2/3/11, Lisbeth S. Fried <lizfried@...
          <mailto:lizfried%40umich.edu>

          <mailto:lizfried%40umich.edu> > wrote:

          From: Lisbeth S. Fried <lizfried@... <mailto:lizfried%40umich.edu>
          <mailto:lizfried%40umich.edu> >
          Subject: [ANE-2] Question about sacrifice
          To: ANE-2@yahoogroups.com <mailto:ANE-2%40yahoogroups.com>
          <mailto:ANE-2%40yahoogroups.com>

          Date: Thursday, February 3, 2011, 12:28 PM

          Dear All,

          I'm reading an article now which suggests that the whole burnt offering in
          the temple of YHW at Elephantine was disallowed not because of any problem
          with it by the priests of YHWH in Jerusalem who only wanted worship there,
          but because of the Zoroastrian problem of contaminating fire with a dead
          animal.

          My question is, how was meat presented to the gods of Egypt, Babylon, Asia
          Minor etc? Were these meats cooked on top of a stove, so to speak, and not
          put directly in contact with the fire? Was Judah unique in this regard?

          Thanks for your help,

          Liz

          Lisbeth S. Fried, Ph.D.
          Department of Near Eastern Studies
          and the Frankel Center for Judaic Studies
          University of Michigan
          202 S. Thayer -- Room 4111
          Ann Arbor, MI 48104
          www.lizfried.com <http://www.lizfried.com/>

          [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

          [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

          [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

          [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

          [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]







          [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
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