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RE: [ANE-2] Question about sacrifice

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  • Lisbeth S. Fried
    Hi Graham, That s a really good question, the author (maddingly) doesn t address the issue. I know that they also used animal sacrifice, but I d have to assume
    Message 1 of 9 , Feb 4, 2011
    • 0 Attachment
      Hi Graham,

      That's a really good question, the author (maddingly) doesn't address the
      issue. I know that they also used animal sacrifice, but I'd have to assume
      that the animal was cooked on a stove or something so the carcass didn't
      come in contact with the fire. I mean the people weren't/aren't vegetarians,
      they ate/eat meat.

      I learned from a friend of mine that according to Homer the Greeks roasted
      their sacrifices on spits in a fire. My friend, Eric Orlin, says that they
      were influenced by Canaanite practice, not vice versa, but I don't know how
      he knows that.

      In any case, if the Egyptians cooked their sacrifices on a stove and then
      presented it to the gods, then that would explain why meat sacrifice was
      halted only at the Judean temple at Elephantine and not at the temple of
      Khnum, etc.



      Liz





      Lisbeth S. Fried, Ph.D.
      Visitng Scholar
      Department of Near Eastern Studies
      and the Frankel Center for Judaic Studies
      University of Michigan
      202 S. Thayer -- Room 4111
      Ann Arbor, MI 48104
      www.lizfried.com <http://www.lizfried.com/>





      _____

      From: ANE-2@yahoogroups.com [mailto:ANE-2@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of
      Graham Hagens
      Sent: Thursday, February 03, 2011 7:46 PM
      To: ANE-2@yahoogroups.com
      Subject: Re: [ANE-2] Question about sacrifice





      Liz: what does the author say about the sacrificial animal immolation
      carried out by Zoroastrians themselves? From what I have read there seems
      to be some uncertainty about those practices.

      Graham Hagens
      Hamilton, ON

      --- On Thu, 2/3/11, Lisbeth S. Fried <lizfried@...
      <mailto:lizfried%40umich.edu> > wrote:

      From: Lisbeth S. Fried <lizfried@... <mailto:lizfried%40umich.edu> >
      Subject: [ANE-2] Question about sacrifice
      To: ANE-2@yahoogroups.com <mailto:ANE-2%40yahoogroups.com>
      Date: Thursday, February 3, 2011, 12:28 PM



      Dear All,

      I'm reading an article now which suggests that the whole burnt offering in
      the temple of YHW at Elephantine was disallowed not because of any problem
      with it by the priests of YHWH in Jerusalem who only wanted worship there,
      but because of the Zoroastrian problem of contaminating fire with a dead
      animal.

      My question is, how was meat presented to the gods of Egypt, Babylon, Asia
      Minor etc? Were these meats cooked on top of a stove, so to speak, and not
      put directly in contact with the fire? Was Judah unique in this regard?

      Thanks for your help,

      Liz

      Lisbeth S. Fried, Ph.D.
      Department of Near Eastern Studies
      and the Frankel Center for Judaic Studies
      University of Michigan
      202 S. Thayer -- Room 4111
      Ann Arbor, MI 48104
      www.lizfried.com <http://www.lizfried.com/>

      [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

      [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]





      [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
    • David Hall
      Hello Liz, The horned altar was in use since Minoan times on Santorini destroyed by volcanic eruption as early as the MBA.  I have read reports of altars on
      Message 2 of 9 , Feb 5, 2011
      • 0 Attachment
        Hello Liz,

        The horned altar was in use since Minoan times on Santorini destroyed by
        volcanic eruption as early as the MBA.  I have read reports of altars on Crete
        with burnt bones in use as early as Minoan times.  I googled (google.com not
        google.co.uk) search words to see if someone could pick up any information about
        "Minoan altars burnt bones" and found there are scattered references
        online.  Altars and burnt bones on Greek islands north of Crete were reported in
        various archaeological publications.   

        Those who have worked translating the tablets of Ugarit insisted the people at
        Ras Shamra used "burnt offerings."  This may imply roasting rather than boiling
        meat in a cooking pot.  I am not an expert on the translation of Ugarit tablets,
        but some claimed phrases at Ugarit were parallel to Bible phrases.  Ugarit was
        destroyed in the first quarter of the 12th century BC before the Bible was
        written.

        Leonard Woolley mentioned a kitchen in the ziggurat at Ur where the food of the
        gods was cooked. 

        An altar with an ash pile next to it was reported by Haines at Nippur, but the
        dating of the altar is not certain.   This reference was from the unpublished
        Nippur field reports at the U. of Pennsylvania Museum of Archaeology
        and Anthropology Archives in Philadelphia.


        The Egyptians offered all sorts of food offerings.  As far as I know they have
        not been found to have made burnt offerings on altars, but did use incense in
        their temples.  Hatshetsup sent a naval expedition to acquire incense near the
        Horn of Africa. 



        David Q. Hall
        Falls Church, Virginia

          



        ________________________________
        From: Lisbeth S. Fried <lizfried@...>
        To: ANE-2@yahoogroups.com
        Sent: Fri, February 4, 2011 10:26:37 AM
        Subject: RE: [ANE-2] Question about sacrifice

         
        Hi Graham,

        That's a really good question, the author (maddingly) doesn't address the
        issue. I know that they also used animal sacrifice, but I'd have to assume
        that the animal was cooked on a stove or something so the carcass didn't
        come in contact with the fire. I mean the people weren't/aren't vegetarians,
        they ate/eat meat.

        I learned from a friend of mine that according to Homer the Greeks roasted
        their sacrifices on spits in a fire. My friend, Eric Orlin, says that they
        were influenced by Canaanite practice, not vice versa, but I don't know how
        he knows that.

        In any case, if the Egyptians cooked their sacrifices on a stove and then
        presented it to the gods, then that would explain why meat sacrifice was
        halted only at the Judean temple at Elephantine and not at the temple of
        Khnum, etc.

        Liz

        Lisbeth S. Fried, Ph.D.
        Visitng Scholar
        Department of Near Eastern Studies
        and the Frankel Center for Judaic Studies
        University of Michigan
        202 S. Thayer -- Room 4111
        Ann Arbor, MI 48104
        www.lizfried.com <http://www.lizfried.com/>

        _____

        From: ANE-2@yahoogroups.com [mailto:ANE-2@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of
        Graham Hagens
        Sent: Thursday, February 03, 2011 7:46 PM
        To: ANE-2@yahoogroups.com
        Subject: Re: [ANE-2] Question about sacrifice

        Liz: what does the author say about the sacrificial animal immolation
        carried out by Zoroastrians themselves? From what I have read there seems
        to be some uncertainty about those practices.

        Graham Hagens
        Hamilton, ON

        --- On Thu, 2/3/11, Lisbeth S. Fried <lizfried@...
        <mailto:lizfried%40umich.edu> > wrote:

        From: Lisbeth S. Fried <lizfried@... <mailto:lizfried%40umich.edu> >
        Subject: [ANE-2] Question about sacrifice
        To: ANE-2@yahoogroups.com <mailto:ANE-2%40yahoogroups.com>
        Date: Thursday, February 3, 2011, 12:28 PM

        Dear All,

        I'm reading an article now which suggests that the whole burnt offering in
        the temple of YHW at Elephantine was disallowed not because of any problem
        with it by the priests of YHWH in Jerusalem who only wanted worship there,
        but because of the Zoroastrian problem of contaminating fire with a dead
        animal.

        My question is, how was meat presented to the gods of Egypt, Babylon, Asia
        Minor etc? Were these meats cooked on top of a stove, so to speak, and not
        put directly in contact with the fire? Was Judah unique in this regard?

        Thanks for your help,

        Liz

        Lisbeth S. Fried, Ph.D.
        Department of Near Eastern Studies
        and the Frankel Center for Judaic Studies
        University of Michigan
        202 S. Thayer -- Room 4111
        Ann Arbor, MI 48104
        www.lizfried.com <http://www.lizfried.com/>

        [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

        [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

        [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]







        [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
      • George F Somsel
        There seems to be a clear distinction made in 1 Sam regarding the treatment of sacrifice.  On the one hand it would appear that (much, most, all) of the
        Message 3 of 9 , Feb 6, 2011
        • 0 Attachment
          There seems to be a clear distinction made in 1 Sam regarding the treatment of
          sacrifice.  On the one hand it would appear that (much, most, all) of the
          sacrifices were boiled, but Eli's son's desired roast meat rather than boiled. 


           
           
          1 Samuel 2:11–17
          11 וַיֵּלֶךְ אֶלְקָנָה הָרָמָתָה עַל־בֵּיתוֹ וְהַנַּעַר הָיָה מְשָׁרֵת אֶת־יהוה
          אֶת־פְּנֵי עֵלִי הַכֹּהֵן׃

          12 וּבְנֵי עֵלִי בְּנֵי בְלִיָּעַל לֹא יָדְעוּ אֶת־יהוה׃
          13 וּמִשְׁפַּט הַכֹּהֲנִים אֶת־הָעָם כָּל־אִישׁ זֹבֵחַ זֶבַח וּבָא נַעַר
          הַכֹּהֵן כְּבַשֵּׁל הַבָּשָׂר וְהַמַּזְלֵג שְׁלֹשׁ־הַשִּׁנַּיִם בְּיָדוֹ׃

          14 וְהִכָּה בַכִּיּוֹר אוֹ בַדּוּד אוֹ בַקַּלַּחַת אוֹ בַפָּרוּר כֹּל אֲשֶׁר
          יַעֲלֶה הַמַּזְלֵג יִקַּח הַכֹּהֵן בּוֹ כָּכָה יַעֲשׂוּ לְכָל־יִשְׂרָאֵל
          הַבָּאִים שָׁם בְּשִׁלֹה׃

          15 גַּם בְּטֶרֶם יַקְטִרוּן אֶת־הַחֵלֶב וּבָא נַעַר הַכֹּהֵן וְאָמַר לָאִישׁ
          הַזֹּבֵחַ תְּנָה בָשָׂר לִצְלוֹת לַכֹּהֵן וְלֹא־יִקַּח מִמְּךָ בָּשָׂר מְבֻשָּׁל
          כִּי אִם־חָי׃

          16 וַיֹּאמֶר אֵלָיו הָאִישׁ קַטֵּר יַקְטִירוּן כַּיּוֹם הַחֵלֶב וְקַח־לְךָ
          כַּאֲשֶׁר תְּאַוֶּה נַפְשֶׁךָ וְאָמַר לוֹ כִּי עַתָּה תִתֵּן וְאִם־לֹא
          לָקַחְתִּי בְחָזְקָה׃

          17 וַתְּהִי חַטַּאת הַנְּעָרִים גְּדוֹלָה מְאֹד אֶת־פְּנֵי יהוה כִּי נִאֲצוּ
          הָאֲנָשִׁים אֵת מִנְחַת יהוה׃


          The question is whether at the time it was considered impious to roast the
          offering without it's having been boiled or whether the impiety lay in their
          excessive haste to obtain a portion of the offering.  It is almost certain that
          at other times the offering was roasted since it is referred to as a עֹלַה or a
          burnt offering just as Eli's sons demanded that they be given their portion
          first before the meat was boiled so that they could roast it (גַּם בְּטֶרֶם
          יַקְטִרוּן אֶת־הַחֵלֶב וּבָא נַעַר הַכֹּהֵן וְאָמַר לָאִישׁ הַזֹּבֵחַ תְּנָה
          בָשָׂר לִצְלוֹת לַכֹּהֵן).
          george
          gfsomsel


          … search for truth, hear truth,
          learn truth, love truth, speak the truth, hold the truth,
          defend the truth till death.


          - Jan Hus
          _________




          ________________________________
          From: David Hall <dqhall59@...>
          To: ANE-2@yahoogroups.com
          Sent: Sat, February 5, 2011 6:41:19 PM
          Subject: Re: [ANE-2] Question about sacrifice

           
          Hello Liz,

          The horned altar was in use since Minoan times on Santorini destroyed by
          volcanic eruption as early as the MBA.  I have read reports of altars on Crete
          with burnt bones in use as early as Minoan times.  I googled (google.com not
          google.co.uk) search words to see if someone could pick up any information about

          "Minoan altars burnt bones" and found there are scattered references
          online.  Altars and burnt bones on Greek islands north of Crete were reported in

          various archaeological publications.   

          Those who have worked translating the tablets of Ugarit insisted the people at
          Ras Shamra used "burnt offerings."  This may imply roasting rather than boiling
          meat in a cooking pot.  I am not an expert on the translation of Ugarit tablets,

          but some claimed phrases at Ugarit were parallel to Bible phrases.  Ugarit was
          destroyed in the first quarter of the 12th century BC before the Bible was
          written.

          Leonard Woolley mentioned a kitchen in the ziggurat at Ur where the food of the
          gods was cooked. 

          An altar with an ash pile next to it was reported by Haines at Nippur, but the
          dating of the altar is not certain.   This reference was from the unpublished
          Nippur field reports at the U. of Pennsylvania Museum of Archaeology
          and Anthropology Archives in Philadelphia.

          The Egyptians offered all sorts of food offerings.  As far as I know they have
          not been found to have made burnt offerings on altars, but did use incense in
          their temples.  Hatshetsup sent a naval expedition to acquire incense near the
          Horn of Africa. 

          David Q. Hall
          Falls Church, Virginia

            

          ________________________________
          From: Lisbeth S. Fried <lizfried@...>
          To: ANE-2@yahoogroups.com
          Sent: Fri, February 4, 2011 10:26:37 AM
          Subject: RE: [ANE-2] Question about sacrifice

           
          Hi Graham,

          That's a really good question, the author (maddingly) doesn't address the
          issue. I know that they also used animal sacrifice, but I'd have to assume
          that the animal was cooked on a stove or something so the carcass didn't
          come in contact with the fire. I mean the people weren't/aren't vegetarians,
          they ate/eat meat.

          I learned from a friend of mine that according to Homer the Greeks roasted
          their sacrifices on spits in a fire. My friend, Eric Orlin, says that they
          were influenced by Canaanite practice, not vice versa, but I don't know how
          he knows that.

          In any case, if the Egyptians cooked their sacrifices on a stove and then
          presented it to the gods, then that would explain why meat sacrifice was
          halted only at the Judean temple at Elephantine and not at the temple of
          Khnum, etc.

          Liz

          Lisbeth S. Fried, Ph.D.
          Visitng Scholar
          Department of Near Eastern Studies
          and the Frankel Center for Judaic Studies
          University of Michigan
          202 S. Thayer -- Room 4111
          Ann Arbor, MI 48104
          www.lizfried.com <http://www.lizfried.com/>

          _____

          From: ANE-2@yahoogroups.com [mailto:ANE-2@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of
          Graham Hagens
          Sent: Thursday, February 03, 2011 7:46 PM
          To: ANE-2@yahoogroups.com
          Subject: Re: [ANE-2] Question about sacrifice

          Liz: what does the author say about the sacrificial animal immolation
          carried out by Zoroastrians themselves? From what I have read there seems
          to be some uncertainty about those practices.

          Graham Hagens
          Hamilton, ON

          --- On Thu, 2/3/11, Lisbeth S. Fried <lizfried@...
          <mailto:lizfried%40umich.edu> > wrote:

          From: Lisbeth S. Fried <lizfried@... <mailto:lizfried%40umich.edu> >
          Subject: [ANE-2] Question about sacrifice
          To: ANE-2@yahoogroups.com <mailto:ANE-2%40yahoogroups.com>
          Date: Thursday, February 3, 2011, 12:28 PM

          Dear All,

          I'm reading an article now which suggests that the whole burnt offering in
          the temple of YHW at Elephantine was disallowed not because of any problem
          with it by the priests of YHWH in Jerusalem who only wanted worship there,
          but because of the Zoroastrian problem of contaminating fire with a dead
          animal.

          My question is, how was meat presented to the gods of Egypt, Babylon, Asia
          Minor etc? Were these meats cooked on top of a stove, so to speak, and not
          put directly in contact with the fire? Was Judah unique in this regard?

          Thanks for your help,

          Liz

          Lisbeth S. Fried, Ph.D.
          Department of Near Eastern Studies
          and the Frankel Center for Judaic Studies
          University of Michigan
          202 S. Thayer -- Room 4111
          Ann Arbor, MI 48104
          www.lizfried.com <http://www.lizfried.com/>

          [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

          [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

          [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

          [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]







          [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
        • Graham Hagens
          An interesting article by A. Panaino  rituals by Panaino in Zoroastrian Rituals in Context   (2003, ed. M.Stausberg), explores some of the complexties
          Message 4 of 9 , Feb 7, 2011
          • 0 Attachment
            An interesting article by A. Panaino  rituals by Panaino in 'Zoroastrian Rituals in Context'  (2003, ed. M.Stausberg), explores some of the complexties of Zoroastrian sacrificial practices (also available on line). 
            While it is most likely that Zoroastrian rituals did include immolation, the precise details seem to be obscure. They may also have evolved over time.
            It is also not clear at which stage fire itself came to be thought of as sacred as opposed to merely a symbol of divinity.
             
            Graham Hagens
            Hamilton, ON 

            --- On Fri, 2/4/11, Lisbeth S. Fried <lizfried@...> wrote:


            From: Lisbeth S. Fried <lizfried@...>
            Subject: RE: [ANE-2] Question about sacrifice
            To: ANE-2@yahoogroups.com
            Date: Friday, February 4, 2011, 10:26 AM


             



            Hi Graham,

            That's a really good question, the author (maddingly) doesn't address the
            issue. I know that they also used animal sacrifice, but I'd have to assume
            that the animal was cooked on a stove or something so the carcass didn't
            come in contact with the fire. I mean the people weren't/aren't vegetarians,
            they ate/eat meat.

            I learned from a friend of mine that according to Homer the Greeks roasted
            their sacrifices on spits in a fire. My friend, Eric Orlin, says that they
            were influenced by Canaanite practice, not vice versa, but I don't know how
            he knows that.

            In any case, if the Egyptians cooked their sacrifices on a stove and then
            presented it to the gods, then that would explain why meat sacrifice was
            halted only at the Judean temple at Elephantine and not at the temple of
            Khnum, etc.

            Liz

            Lisbeth S. Fried, Ph.D.
            Visitng Scholar
            Department of Near Eastern Studies
            and the Frankel Center for Judaic Studies
            University of Michigan
            202 S. Thayer -- Room 4111
            Ann Arbor, MI 48104
            www.lizfried.com <http://www.lizfried.com/>

            _____

            From: ANE-2@yahoogroups.com [mailto:ANE-2@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of
            Graham Hagens
            Sent: Thursday, February 03, 2011 7:46 PM
            To: ANE-2@yahoogroups.com
            Subject: Re: [ANE-2] Question about sacrifice

            Liz: what does the author say about the sacrificial animal immolation
            carried out by Zoroastrians themselves? From what I have read there seems
            to be some uncertainty about those practices.

            Graham Hagens
            Hamilton, ON

            --- On Thu, 2/3/11, Lisbeth S. Fried <lizfried@...
            <mailto:lizfried%40umich.edu> > wrote:

            From: Lisbeth S. Fried <lizfried@... <mailto:lizfried%40umich.edu> >
            Subject: [ANE-2] Question about sacrifice
            To: ANE-2@yahoogroups.com <mailto:ANE-2%40yahoogroups.com>
            Date: Thursday, February 3, 2011, 12:28 PM

            Dear All,

            I'm reading an article now which suggests that the whole burnt offering in
            the temple of YHW at Elephantine was disallowed not because of any problem
            with it by the priests of YHWH in Jerusalem who only wanted worship there,
            but because of the Zoroastrian problem of contaminating fire with a dead
            animal.

            My question is, how was meat presented to the gods of Egypt, Babylon, Asia
            Minor etc? Were these meats cooked on top of a stove, so to speak, and not
            put directly in contact with the fire? Was Judah unique in this regard?

            Thanks for your help,

            Liz

            Lisbeth S. Fried, Ph.D.
            Department of Near Eastern Studies
            and the Frankel Center for Judaic Studies
            University of Michigan
            202 S. Thayer -- Room 4111
            Ann Arbor, MI 48104
            www.lizfried.com <http://www.lizfried.com/>

            [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

            [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

            [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]











            [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
          • Lampros F. Kallenos
            Is the Mycenean case relevant to the question? Yannis HAMILAKIS, Eleni KONSOLAKI Pigs for the Gods. Burnt Animal Sacrifices As Embodied Rituals At A Mycenaean
            Message 5 of 9 , Feb 7, 2011
            • 0 Attachment
              Is the Mycenean case relevant to the question?


              Yannis HAMILAKIS, Eleni KONSOLAKI
              Pigs for the Gods. Burnt Animal Sacrifices As Embodied
              Rituals At A Mycenaean Sanctuary.
              Oxford Journal of Archaeology, 23(2) 2004 135–151
              http://corinth.sas.upenn.edu/dgr/sanctuaries/methana_aykon_animals.pdf


              Classics Doctoral Student Finds Bones that Prove Homer was
              Right About Sacrifices
              Date: Jan. 20, 2001
              http://www.uc.edu/news/burnt.htm


              Classics Doctoral Student Finds Bones That Prove Homer Was
              Right About Sacrifices
              Source: University Of Cincinnati
              Date: 2001-01-23
              http://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2001/01/010123074805.htm



              _____________________________
              Λάμπρος Φ. Καλλένος
              Ιδάλιον, Λευκωσία
              Κύπρος
              --
            • Lisbeth S. Fried
              Dear David, Thank you very much for this interesting report. Regarding the references in the Ugaritic material, I think the references are from the Aqht myth.
              Message 6 of 9 , Feb 8, 2011
              • 0 Attachment
                Dear David,

                Thank you very much for this interesting report.

                Regarding the references in the Ugaritic material, I think the references are from the Aqht myth.

                I. 185 dbḥ ilm yšʿly , the sacrifice to the gods he offered up, which doesn’t say anything about how it was done, unfortunately.

                I think it’s right tho that in Egypt and Babylon the food was cooked in kitchens on stoves or in ovens, and then presented.

                Liz



                Lisbeth S. Fried, Ph.D.
                Ann Arbor, MI 48104
                www.lizfried.com <http://www.lizfried.com/>





                _____

                From: ANE-2@yahoogroups.com [mailto:ANE-2@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of David Hall
                Sent: Saturday, February 05, 2011 8:41 PM
                To: ANE-2@yahoogroups.com
                Subject: Re: [ANE-2] Question about sacrifice





                Hello Liz,

                The horned altar was in use since Minoan times on Santorini destroyed by
                volcanic eruption as early as the MBA. I have read reports of altars on Crete
                with burnt bones in use as early as Minoan times. I googled (google.com not
                google.co.uk) search words to see if someone could pick up any information about
                "Minoan altars burnt bones" and found there are scattered references
                online. Altars and burnt bones on Greek islands north of Crete were reported in
                various archaeological publications.

                Those who have worked translating the tablets of Ugarit insisted the people at
                Ras Shamra used "burnt offerings." This may imply roasting rather than boiling
                meat in a cooking pot. I am not an expert on the translation of Ugarit tablets,
                but some claimed phrases at Ugarit were parallel to Bible phrases. Ugarit was
                destroyed in the first quarter of the 12th century BC before the Bible was
                written.

                Leonard Woolley mentioned a kitchen in the ziggurat at Ur where the food of the
                gods was cooked.

                An altar with an ash pile next to it was reported by Haines at Nippur, but the
                dating of the altar is not certain. This reference was from the unpublished
                Nippur field reports at the U. of Pennsylvania Museum of Archaeology
                and Anthropology Archives in Philadelphia.

                The Egyptians offered all sorts of food offerings. As far as I know they have
                not been found to have made burnt offerings on altars, but did use incense in
                their temples. Hatshetsup sent a naval expedition to acquire incense near the
                Horn of Africa.

                David Q. Hall
                Falls Church, Virginia



                ________________________________
                From: Lisbeth S. Fried <lizfried@... <mailto:lizfried%40umich.edu> >
                To: ANE-2@yahoogroups.com <mailto:ANE-2%40yahoogroups.com>
                Sent: Fri, February 4, 2011 10:26:37 AM
                Subject: RE: [ANE-2] Question about sacrifice


                Hi Graham,

                That's a really good question, the author (maddingly) doesn't address the
                issue. I know that they also used animal sacrifice, but I'd have to assume
                that the animal was cooked on a stove or something so the carcass didn't
                come in contact with the fire. I mean the people weren't/aren't vegetarians,
                they ate/eat meat.

                I learned from a friend of mine that according to Homer the Greeks roasted
                their sacrifices on spits in a fire. My friend, Eric Orlin, says that they
                were influenced by Canaanite practice, not vice versa, but I don't know how
                he knows that.

                In any case, if the Egyptians cooked their sacrifices on a stove and then
                presented it to the gods, then that would explain why meat sacrifice was
                halted only at the Judean temple at Elephantine and not at the temple of
                Khnum, etc.

                Liz

                Lisbeth S. Fried, Ph.D.
                Visitng Scholar
                Department of Near Eastern Studies
                and the Frankel Center for Judaic Studies
                University of Michigan
                202 S. Thayer -- Room 4111
                Ann Arbor, MI 48104
                www.lizfried.com <http://www.lizfried.com/>

                _____

                From: ANE-2@yahoogroups.com <mailto:ANE-2%40yahoogroups.com> [mailto:ANE-2@yahoogroups.com <mailto:ANE-2%40yahoogroups.com> ] On Behalf Of
                Graham Hagens
                Sent: Thursday, February 03, 2011 7:46 PM
                To: ANE-2@yahoogroups.com <mailto:ANE-2%40yahoogroups.com>
                Subject: Re: [ANE-2] Question about sacrifice

                Liz: what does the author say about the sacrificial animal immolation
                carried out by Zoroastrians themselves? From what I have read there seems
                to be some uncertainty about those practices.

                Graham Hagens
                Hamilton, ON

                --- On Thu, 2/3/11, Lisbeth S. Fried <lizfried@... <mailto:lizfried%40umich.edu>
                <mailto:lizfried%40umich.edu> > wrote:

                From: Lisbeth S. Fried <lizfried@... <mailto:lizfried%40umich.edu> <mailto:lizfried%40umich.edu> >
                Subject: [ANE-2] Question about sacrifice
                To: ANE-2@yahoogroups.com <mailto:ANE-2%40yahoogroups.com> <mailto:ANE-2%40yahoogroups.com>
                Date: Thursday, February 3, 2011, 12:28 PM

                Dear All,

                I'm reading an article now which suggests that the whole burnt offering in
                the temple of YHW at Elephantine was disallowed not because of any problem
                with it by the priests of YHWH in Jerusalem who only wanted worship there,
                but because of the Zoroastrian problem of contaminating fire with a dead
                animal.

                My question is, how was meat presented to the gods of Egypt, Babylon, Asia
                Minor etc? Were these meats cooked on top of a stove, so to speak, and not
                put directly in contact with the fire? Was Judah unique in this regard?

                Thanks for your help,

                Liz

                Lisbeth S. Fried, Ph.D.
                Department of Near Eastern Studies
                and the Frankel Center for Judaic Studies
                University of Michigan
                202 S. Thayer -- Room 4111
                Ann Arbor, MI 48104
                www.lizfried.com <http://www.lizfried.com/>

                [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

                [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

                [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

                [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]





                [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
              • David Hall
                Liz, See:  Religious Texts from Ugarit, by N. Wyatt, 2nd edition, 2002, Sheffield Press. From tablet KTU 1.119 regarding religious duties during certain
                Message 7 of 9 , Feb 8, 2011
                • 0 Attachment
                  Liz,

                  See:  Religious Texts from Ugarit, by N. Wyatt, 2nd edition, 2002, Sheffield
                  Press.

                  From tablet KTU 1.119 regarding religious duties during certain months:

                  pg. 418   "...in the house of sacrifice he will slaughter; and there shall be
                  burnt in the altar room of Baal of Ugarit a lamb and a feral pigeon..."

                  There are other recent sources available as well.  These sources are not easy to
                  locate and few scholars are competent to comment in depth about the Ugaritic
                  religious rituals.  Multiple scholars insisted there were "burnt offerings."

                  David Q. Hall 
                  Falls Church, Virginia

                   



                  ________________________________
                  From: Lisbeth S. Fried <lizfried@...>
                  To: ANE-2@yahoogroups.com
                  Sent: Tue, February 8, 2011 12:59:13 PM
                  Subject: RE: [ANE-2] Question about sacrifice

                   
                  Dear David,

                  Thank you very much for this interesting report.

                  Regarding the references in the Ugaritic material, I think the references are
                  from the Aqht myth.

                  I. 185 dbḥ ilm yšʿly , the sacrifice to the gods he offered up, which doesn’t
                  say anything about how it was done, unfortunately.

                  I think it’s right tho that in Egypt and Babylon the food was cooked in kitchens
                  on stoves or in ovens, and then presented.

                  Liz

                  Lisbeth S. Fried, Ph.D.
                  Ann Arbor, MI 48104
                  www.lizfried.com <http://www.lizfried.com/>

                  _____

                  From: ANE-2@yahoogroups.com [mailto:ANE-2@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of David
                  Hall
                  Sent: Saturday, February 05, 2011 8:41 PM
                  To: ANE-2@yahoogroups.com
                  Subject: Re: [ANE-2] Question about sacrifice

                  Hello Liz,

                  The horned altar was in use since Minoan times on Santorini destroyed by
                  volcanic eruption as early as the MBA. I have read reports of altars on Crete
                  with burnt bones in use as early as Minoan times. I googled (google.com not
                  google.co.uk) search words to see if someone could pick up any information about

                  "Minoan altars burnt bones" and found there are scattered references
                  online. Altars and burnt bones on Greek islands north of Crete were reported in
                  various archaeological publications.

                  Those who have worked translating the tablets of Ugarit insisted the people at
                  Ras Shamra used "burnt offerings." This may imply roasting rather than boiling
                  meat in a cooking pot. I am not an expert on the translation of Ugarit tablets,
                  but some claimed phrases at Ugarit were parallel to Bible phrases. Ugarit was
                  destroyed in the first quarter of the 12th century BC before the Bible was
                  written.

                  Leonard Woolley mentioned a kitchen in the ziggurat at Ur where the food of the
                  gods was cooked.

                  An altar with an ash pile next to it was reported by Haines at Nippur, but the
                  dating of the altar is not certain. This reference was from the unpublished
                  Nippur field reports at the U. of Pennsylvania Museum of Archaeology
                  and Anthropology Archives in Philadelphia.

                  The Egyptians offered all sorts of food offerings. As far as I know they have
                  not been found to have made burnt offerings on altars, but did use incense in
                  their temples. Hatshetsup sent a naval expedition to acquire incense near the
                  Horn of Africa.

                  David Q. Hall
                  Falls Church, Virginia

                  ________________________________
                  From: Lisbeth S. Fried <lizfried@... <mailto:lizfried%40umich.edu> >
                  To: ANE-2@yahoogroups.com <mailto:ANE-2%40yahoogroups.com>
                  Sent: Fri, February 4, 2011 10:26:37 AM
                  Subject: RE: [ANE-2] Question about sacrifice

                  Hi Graham,

                  That's a really good question, the author (maddingly) doesn't address the
                  issue. I know that they also used animal sacrifice, but I'd have to assume
                  that the animal was cooked on a stove or something so the carcass didn't
                  come in contact with the fire. I mean the people weren't/aren't vegetarians,
                  they ate/eat meat.

                  I learned from a friend of mine that according to Homer the Greeks roasted
                  their sacrifices on spits in a fire. My friend, Eric Orlin, says that they
                  were influenced by Canaanite practice, not vice versa, but I don't know how
                  he knows that.

                  In any case, if the Egyptians cooked their sacrifices on a stove and then
                  presented it to the gods, then that would explain why meat sacrifice was
                  halted only at the Judean temple at Elephantine and not at the temple of
                  Khnum, etc.

                  Liz

                  Lisbeth S. Fried, Ph.D.
                  Visitng Scholar
                  Department of Near Eastern Studies
                  and the Frankel Center for Judaic Studies
                  University of Michigan
                  202 S. Thayer -- Room 4111
                  Ann Arbor, MI 48104
                  www.lizfried.com <http://www.lizfried.com/>

                  _____

                  From: ANE-2@yahoogroups.com <mailto:ANE-2%40yahoogroups.com>
                  [mailto:ANE-2@yahoogroups.com <mailto:ANE-2%40yahoogroups.com> ] On Behalf Of
                  Graham Hagens
                  Sent: Thursday, February 03, 2011 7:46 PM
                  To: ANE-2@yahoogroups.com <mailto:ANE-2%40yahoogroups.com>
                  Subject: Re: [ANE-2] Question about sacrifice

                  Liz: what does the author say about the sacrificial animal immolation
                  carried out by Zoroastrians themselves? From what I have read there seems
                  to be some uncertainty about those practices.

                  Graham Hagens
                  Hamilton, ON

                  --- On Thu, 2/3/11, Lisbeth S. Fried <lizfried@...
                  <mailto:lizfried%40umich.edu>

                  <mailto:lizfried%40umich.edu> > wrote:

                  From: Lisbeth S. Fried <lizfried@... <mailto:lizfried%40umich.edu>
                  <mailto:lizfried%40umich.edu> >
                  Subject: [ANE-2] Question about sacrifice
                  To: ANE-2@yahoogroups.com <mailto:ANE-2%40yahoogroups.com>
                  <mailto:ANE-2%40yahoogroups.com>

                  Date: Thursday, February 3, 2011, 12:28 PM

                  Dear All,

                  I'm reading an article now which suggests that the whole burnt offering in
                  the temple of YHW at Elephantine was disallowed not because of any problem
                  with it by the priests of YHWH in Jerusalem who only wanted worship there,
                  but because of the Zoroastrian problem of contaminating fire with a dead
                  animal.

                  My question is, how was meat presented to the gods of Egypt, Babylon, Asia
                  Minor etc? Were these meats cooked on top of a stove, so to speak, and not
                  put directly in contact with the fire? Was Judah unique in this regard?

                  Thanks for your help,

                  Liz

                  Lisbeth S. Fried, Ph.D.
                  Department of Near Eastern Studies
                  and the Frankel Center for Judaic Studies
                  University of Michigan
                  202 S. Thayer -- Room 4111
                  Ann Arbor, MI 48104
                  www.lizfried.com <http://www.lizfried.com/>

                  [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

                  [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

                  [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

                  [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

                  [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]







                  [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
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