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Re: [ANE-2] Question about sacrifice

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  • Graham Hagens
    Liz: what does the author say about the sacrificial animal immolation carried out by  Zoroastrians themselves? From what I have read there seems to be
    Message 1 of 9 , Feb 3, 2011
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      Liz: what does the author say about the sacrificial animal immolation carried out by  Zoroastrians themselves? From what I have read there seems to be some uncertainty about those practices.
       
      Graham Hagens
      Hamilton, ON

      --- On Thu, 2/3/11, Lisbeth S. Fried <lizfried@...> wrote:


      From: Lisbeth S. Fried <lizfried@...>
      Subject: [ANE-2] Question about sacrifice
      To: ANE-2@yahoogroups.com
      Date: Thursday, February 3, 2011, 12:28 PM


       



      Dear All,

      I'm reading an article now which suggests that the whole burnt offering in
      the temple of YHW at Elephantine was disallowed not because of any problem
      with it by the priests of YHWH in Jerusalem who only wanted worship there,
      but because of the Zoroastrian problem of contaminating fire with a dead
      animal.

      My question is, how was meat presented to the gods of Egypt, Babylon, Asia
      Minor etc? Were these meats cooked on top of a stove, so to speak, and not
      put directly in contact with the fire? Was Judah unique in this regard?

      Thanks for your help,

      Liz

      Lisbeth S. Fried, Ph.D.
      Department of Near Eastern Studies
      and the Frankel Center for Judaic Studies
      University of Michigan
      202 S. Thayer -- Room 4111
      Ann Arbor, MI 48104
      www.lizfried.com <http://www.lizfried.com/>

      [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]











      [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
    • Lisbeth S. Fried
      Hi Graham, That s a really good question, the author (maddingly) doesn t address the issue. I know that they also used animal sacrifice, but I d have to assume
      Message 2 of 9 , Feb 4, 2011
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        Hi Graham,

        That's a really good question, the author (maddingly) doesn't address the
        issue. I know that they also used animal sacrifice, but I'd have to assume
        that the animal was cooked on a stove or something so the carcass didn't
        come in contact with the fire. I mean the people weren't/aren't vegetarians,
        they ate/eat meat.

        I learned from a friend of mine that according to Homer the Greeks roasted
        their sacrifices on spits in a fire. My friend, Eric Orlin, says that they
        were influenced by Canaanite practice, not vice versa, but I don't know how
        he knows that.

        In any case, if the Egyptians cooked their sacrifices on a stove and then
        presented it to the gods, then that would explain why meat sacrifice was
        halted only at the Judean temple at Elephantine and not at the temple of
        Khnum, etc.



        Liz





        Lisbeth S. Fried, Ph.D.
        Visitng Scholar
        Department of Near Eastern Studies
        and the Frankel Center for Judaic Studies
        University of Michigan
        202 S. Thayer -- Room 4111
        Ann Arbor, MI 48104
        www.lizfried.com <http://www.lizfried.com/>





        _____

        From: ANE-2@yahoogroups.com [mailto:ANE-2@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of
        Graham Hagens
        Sent: Thursday, February 03, 2011 7:46 PM
        To: ANE-2@yahoogroups.com
        Subject: Re: [ANE-2] Question about sacrifice





        Liz: what does the author say about the sacrificial animal immolation
        carried out by Zoroastrians themselves? From what I have read there seems
        to be some uncertainty about those practices.

        Graham Hagens
        Hamilton, ON

        --- On Thu, 2/3/11, Lisbeth S. Fried <lizfried@...
        <mailto:lizfried%40umich.edu> > wrote:

        From: Lisbeth S. Fried <lizfried@... <mailto:lizfried%40umich.edu> >
        Subject: [ANE-2] Question about sacrifice
        To: ANE-2@yahoogroups.com <mailto:ANE-2%40yahoogroups.com>
        Date: Thursday, February 3, 2011, 12:28 PM



        Dear All,

        I'm reading an article now which suggests that the whole burnt offering in
        the temple of YHW at Elephantine was disallowed not because of any problem
        with it by the priests of YHWH in Jerusalem who only wanted worship there,
        but because of the Zoroastrian problem of contaminating fire with a dead
        animal.

        My question is, how was meat presented to the gods of Egypt, Babylon, Asia
        Minor etc? Were these meats cooked on top of a stove, so to speak, and not
        put directly in contact with the fire? Was Judah unique in this regard?

        Thanks for your help,

        Liz

        Lisbeth S. Fried, Ph.D.
        Department of Near Eastern Studies
        and the Frankel Center for Judaic Studies
        University of Michigan
        202 S. Thayer -- Room 4111
        Ann Arbor, MI 48104
        www.lizfried.com <http://www.lizfried.com/>

        [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

        [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]





        [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
      • David Hall
        Hello Liz, The horned altar was in use since Minoan times on Santorini destroyed by volcanic eruption as early as the MBA.  I have read reports of altars on
        Message 3 of 9 , Feb 5, 2011
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          Hello Liz,

          The horned altar was in use since Minoan times on Santorini destroyed by
          volcanic eruption as early as the MBA.  I have read reports of altars on Crete
          with burnt bones in use as early as Minoan times.  I googled (google.com not
          google.co.uk) search words to see if someone could pick up any information about
          "Minoan altars burnt bones" and found there are scattered references
          online.  Altars and burnt bones on Greek islands north of Crete were reported in
          various archaeological publications.   

          Those who have worked translating the tablets of Ugarit insisted the people at
          Ras Shamra used "burnt offerings."  This may imply roasting rather than boiling
          meat in a cooking pot.  I am not an expert on the translation of Ugarit tablets,
          but some claimed phrases at Ugarit were parallel to Bible phrases.  Ugarit was
          destroyed in the first quarter of the 12th century BC before the Bible was
          written.

          Leonard Woolley mentioned a kitchen in the ziggurat at Ur where the food of the
          gods was cooked. 

          An altar with an ash pile next to it was reported by Haines at Nippur, but the
          dating of the altar is not certain.   This reference was from the unpublished
          Nippur field reports at the U. of Pennsylvania Museum of Archaeology
          and Anthropology Archives in Philadelphia.


          The Egyptians offered all sorts of food offerings.  As far as I know they have
          not been found to have made burnt offerings on altars, but did use incense in
          their temples.  Hatshetsup sent a naval expedition to acquire incense near the
          Horn of Africa. 



          David Q. Hall
          Falls Church, Virginia

            



          ________________________________
          From: Lisbeth S. Fried <lizfried@...>
          To: ANE-2@yahoogroups.com
          Sent: Fri, February 4, 2011 10:26:37 AM
          Subject: RE: [ANE-2] Question about sacrifice

           
          Hi Graham,

          That's a really good question, the author (maddingly) doesn't address the
          issue. I know that they also used animal sacrifice, but I'd have to assume
          that the animal was cooked on a stove or something so the carcass didn't
          come in contact with the fire. I mean the people weren't/aren't vegetarians,
          they ate/eat meat.

          I learned from a friend of mine that according to Homer the Greeks roasted
          their sacrifices on spits in a fire. My friend, Eric Orlin, says that they
          were influenced by Canaanite practice, not vice versa, but I don't know how
          he knows that.

          In any case, if the Egyptians cooked their sacrifices on a stove and then
          presented it to the gods, then that would explain why meat sacrifice was
          halted only at the Judean temple at Elephantine and not at the temple of
          Khnum, etc.

          Liz

          Lisbeth S. Fried, Ph.D.
          Visitng Scholar
          Department of Near Eastern Studies
          and the Frankel Center for Judaic Studies
          University of Michigan
          202 S. Thayer -- Room 4111
          Ann Arbor, MI 48104
          www.lizfried.com <http://www.lizfried.com/>

          _____

          From: ANE-2@yahoogroups.com [mailto:ANE-2@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of
          Graham Hagens
          Sent: Thursday, February 03, 2011 7:46 PM
          To: ANE-2@yahoogroups.com
          Subject: Re: [ANE-2] Question about sacrifice

          Liz: what does the author say about the sacrificial animal immolation
          carried out by Zoroastrians themselves? From what I have read there seems
          to be some uncertainty about those practices.

          Graham Hagens
          Hamilton, ON

          --- On Thu, 2/3/11, Lisbeth S. Fried <lizfried@...
          <mailto:lizfried%40umich.edu> > wrote:

          From: Lisbeth S. Fried <lizfried@... <mailto:lizfried%40umich.edu> >
          Subject: [ANE-2] Question about sacrifice
          To: ANE-2@yahoogroups.com <mailto:ANE-2%40yahoogroups.com>
          Date: Thursday, February 3, 2011, 12:28 PM

          Dear All,

          I'm reading an article now which suggests that the whole burnt offering in
          the temple of YHW at Elephantine was disallowed not because of any problem
          with it by the priests of YHWH in Jerusalem who only wanted worship there,
          but because of the Zoroastrian problem of contaminating fire with a dead
          animal.

          My question is, how was meat presented to the gods of Egypt, Babylon, Asia
          Minor etc? Were these meats cooked on top of a stove, so to speak, and not
          put directly in contact with the fire? Was Judah unique in this regard?

          Thanks for your help,

          Liz

          Lisbeth S. Fried, Ph.D.
          Department of Near Eastern Studies
          and the Frankel Center for Judaic Studies
          University of Michigan
          202 S. Thayer -- Room 4111
          Ann Arbor, MI 48104
          www.lizfried.com <http://www.lizfried.com/>

          [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

          [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

          [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]







          [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
        • George F Somsel
          There seems to be a clear distinction made in 1 Sam regarding the treatment of sacrifice.  On the one hand it would appear that (much, most, all) of the
          Message 4 of 9 , Feb 6, 2011
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            There seems to be a clear distinction made in 1 Sam regarding the treatment of
            sacrifice.  On the one hand it would appear that (much, most, all) of the
            sacrifices were boiled, but Eli's son's desired roast meat rather than boiled. 


             
             
            1 Samuel 2:11–17
            11 וַיֵּלֶךְ אֶלְקָנָה הָרָמָתָה עַל־בֵּיתוֹ וְהַנַּעַר הָיָה מְשָׁרֵת אֶת־יהוה
            אֶת־פְּנֵי עֵלִי הַכֹּהֵן׃

            12 וּבְנֵי עֵלִי בְּנֵי בְלִיָּעַל לֹא יָדְעוּ אֶת־יהוה׃
            13 וּמִשְׁפַּט הַכֹּהֲנִים אֶת־הָעָם כָּל־אִישׁ זֹבֵחַ זֶבַח וּבָא נַעַר
            הַכֹּהֵן כְּבַשֵּׁל הַבָּשָׂר וְהַמַּזְלֵג שְׁלֹשׁ־הַשִּׁנַּיִם בְּיָדוֹ׃

            14 וְהִכָּה בַכִּיּוֹר אוֹ בַדּוּד אוֹ בַקַּלַּחַת אוֹ בַפָּרוּר כֹּל אֲשֶׁר
            יַעֲלֶה הַמַּזְלֵג יִקַּח הַכֹּהֵן בּוֹ כָּכָה יַעֲשׂוּ לְכָל־יִשְׂרָאֵל
            הַבָּאִים שָׁם בְּשִׁלֹה׃

            15 גַּם בְּטֶרֶם יַקְטִרוּן אֶת־הַחֵלֶב וּבָא נַעַר הַכֹּהֵן וְאָמַר לָאִישׁ
            הַזֹּבֵחַ תְּנָה בָשָׂר לִצְלוֹת לַכֹּהֵן וְלֹא־יִקַּח מִמְּךָ בָּשָׂר מְבֻשָּׁל
            כִּי אִם־חָי׃

            16 וַיֹּאמֶר אֵלָיו הָאִישׁ קַטֵּר יַקְטִירוּן כַּיּוֹם הַחֵלֶב וְקַח־לְךָ
            כַּאֲשֶׁר תְּאַוֶּה נַפְשֶׁךָ וְאָמַר לוֹ כִּי עַתָּה תִתֵּן וְאִם־לֹא
            לָקַחְתִּי בְחָזְקָה׃

            17 וַתְּהִי חַטַּאת הַנְּעָרִים גְּדוֹלָה מְאֹד אֶת־פְּנֵי יהוה כִּי נִאֲצוּ
            הָאֲנָשִׁים אֵת מִנְחַת יהוה׃


            The question is whether at the time it was considered impious to roast the
            offering without it's having been boiled or whether the impiety lay in their
            excessive haste to obtain a portion of the offering.  It is almost certain that
            at other times the offering was roasted since it is referred to as a עֹלַה or a
            burnt offering just as Eli's sons demanded that they be given their portion
            first before the meat was boiled so that they could roast it (גַּם בְּטֶרֶם
            יַקְטִרוּן אֶת־הַחֵלֶב וּבָא נַעַר הַכֹּהֵן וְאָמַר לָאִישׁ הַזֹּבֵחַ תְּנָה
            בָשָׂר לִצְלוֹת לַכֹּהֵן).
            george
            gfsomsel


            … search for truth, hear truth,
            learn truth, love truth, speak the truth, hold the truth,
            defend the truth till death.


            - Jan Hus
            _________




            ________________________________
            From: David Hall <dqhall59@...>
            To: ANE-2@yahoogroups.com
            Sent: Sat, February 5, 2011 6:41:19 PM
            Subject: Re: [ANE-2] Question about sacrifice

             
            Hello Liz,

            The horned altar was in use since Minoan times on Santorini destroyed by
            volcanic eruption as early as the MBA.  I have read reports of altars on Crete
            with burnt bones in use as early as Minoan times.  I googled (google.com not
            google.co.uk) search words to see if someone could pick up any information about

            "Minoan altars burnt bones" and found there are scattered references
            online.  Altars and burnt bones on Greek islands north of Crete were reported in

            various archaeological publications.   

            Those who have worked translating the tablets of Ugarit insisted the people at
            Ras Shamra used "burnt offerings."  This may imply roasting rather than boiling
            meat in a cooking pot.  I am not an expert on the translation of Ugarit tablets,

            but some claimed phrases at Ugarit were parallel to Bible phrases.  Ugarit was
            destroyed in the first quarter of the 12th century BC before the Bible was
            written.

            Leonard Woolley mentioned a kitchen in the ziggurat at Ur where the food of the
            gods was cooked. 

            An altar with an ash pile next to it was reported by Haines at Nippur, but the
            dating of the altar is not certain.   This reference was from the unpublished
            Nippur field reports at the U. of Pennsylvania Museum of Archaeology
            and Anthropology Archives in Philadelphia.

            The Egyptians offered all sorts of food offerings.  As far as I know they have
            not been found to have made burnt offerings on altars, but did use incense in
            their temples.  Hatshetsup sent a naval expedition to acquire incense near the
            Horn of Africa. 

            David Q. Hall
            Falls Church, Virginia

              

            ________________________________
            From: Lisbeth S. Fried <lizfried@...>
            To: ANE-2@yahoogroups.com
            Sent: Fri, February 4, 2011 10:26:37 AM
            Subject: RE: [ANE-2] Question about sacrifice

             
            Hi Graham,

            That's a really good question, the author (maddingly) doesn't address the
            issue. I know that they also used animal sacrifice, but I'd have to assume
            that the animal was cooked on a stove or something so the carcass didn't
            come in contact with the fire. I mean the people weren't/aren't vegetarians,
            they ate/eat meat.

            I learned from a friend of mine that according to Homer the Greeks roasted
            their sacrifices on spits in a fire. My friend, Eric Orlin, says that they
            were influenced by Canaanite practice, not vice versa, but I don't know how
            he knows that.

            In any case, if the Egyptians cooked their sacrifices on a stove and then
            presented it to the gods, then that would explain why meat sacrifice was
            halted only at the Judean temple at Elephantine and not at the temple of
            Khnum, etc.

            Liz

            Lisbeth S. Fried, Ph.D.
            Visitng Scholar
            Department of Near Eastern Studies
            and the Frankel Center for Judaic Studies
            University of Michigan
            202 S. Thayer -- Room 4111
            Ann Arbor, MI 48104
            www.lizfried.com <http://www.lizfried.com/>

            _____

            From: ANE-2@yahoogroups.com [mailto:ANE-2@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of
            Graham Hagens
            Sent: Thursday, February 03, 2011 7:46 PM
            To: ANE-2@yahoogroups.com
            Subject: Re: [ANE-2] Question about sacrifice

            Liz: what does the author say about the sacrificial animal immolation
            carried out by Zoroastrians themselves? From what I have read there seems
            to be some uncertainty about those practices.

            Graham Hagens
            Hamilton, ON

            --- On Thu, 2/3/11, Lisbeth S. Fried <lizfried@...
            <mailto:lizfried%40umich.edu> > wrote:

            From: Lisbeth S. Fried <lizfried@... <mailto:lizfried%40umich.edu> >
            Subject: [ANE-2] Question about sacrifice
            To: ANE-2@yahoogroups.com <mailto:ANE-2%40yahoogroups.com>
            Date: Thursday, February 3, 2011, 12:28 PM

            Dear All,

            I'm reading an article now which suggests that the whole burnt offering in
            the temple of YHW at Elephantine was disallowed not because of any problem
            with it by the priests of YHWH in Jerusalem who only wanted worship there,
            but because of the Zoroastrian problem of contaminating fire with a dead
            animal.

            My question is, how was meat presented to the gods of Egypt, Babylon, Asia
            Minor etc? Were these meats cooked on top of a stove, so to speak, and not
            put directly in contact with the fire? Was Judah unique in this regard?

            Thanks for your help,

            Liz

            Lisbeth S. Fried, Ph.D.
            Department of Near Eastern Studies
            and the Frankel Center for Judaic Studies
            University of Michigan
            202 S. Thayer -- Room 4111
            Ann Arbor, MI 48104
            www.lizfried.com <http://www.lizfried.com/>

            [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

            [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

            [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

            [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]







            [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
          • Graham Hagens
            An interesting article by A. Panaino  rituals by Panaino in Zoroastrian Rituals in Context   (2003, ed. M.Stausberg), explores some of the complexties
            Message 5 of 9 , Feb 7, 2011
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              An interesting article by A. Panaino  rituals by Panaino in 'Zoroastrian Rituals in Context'  (2003, ed. M.Stausberg), explores some of the complexties of Zoroastrian sacrificial practices (also available on line). 
              While it is most likely that Zoroastrian rituals did include immolation, the precise details seem to be obscure. They may also have evolved over time.
              It is also not clear at which stage fire itself came to be thought of as sacred as opposed to merely a symbol of divinity.
               
              Graham Hagens
              Hamilton, ON 

              --- On Fri, 2/4/11, Lisbeth S. Fried <lizfried@...> wrote:


              From: Lisbeth S. Fried <lizfried@...>
              Subject: RE: [ANE-2] Question about sacrifice
              To: ANE-2@yahoogroups.com
              Date: Friday, February 4, 2011, 10:26 AM


               



              Hi Graham,

              That's a really good question, the author (maddingly) doesn't address the
              issue. I know that they also used animal sacrifice, but I'd have to assume
              that the animal was cooked on a stove or something so the carcass didn't
              come in contact with the fire. I mean the people weren't/aren't vegetarians,
              they ate/eat meat.

              I learned from a friend of mine that according to Homer the Greeks roasted
              their sacrifices on spits in a fire. My friend, Eric Orlin, says that they
              were influenced by Canaanite practice, not vice versa, but I don't know how
              he knows that.

              In any case, if the Egyptians cooked their sacrifices on a stove and then
              presented it to the gods, then that would explain why meat sacrifice was
              halted only at the Judean temple at Elephantine and not at the temple of
              Khnum, etc.

              Liz

              Lisbeth S. Fried, Ph.D.
              Visitng Scholar
              Department of Near Eastern Studies
              and the Frankel Center for Judaic Studies
              University of Michigan
              202 S. Thayer -- Room 4111
              Ann Arbor, MI 48104
              www.lizfried.com <http://www.lizfried.com/>

              _____

              From: ANE-2@yahoogroups.com [mailto:ANE-2@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of
              Graham Hagens
              Sent: Thursday, February 03, 2011 7:46 PM
              To: ANE-2@yahoogroups.com
              Subject: Re: [ANE-2] Question about sacrifice

              Liz: what does the author say about the sacrificial animal immolation
              carried out by Zoroastrians themselves? From what I have read there seems
              to be some uncertainty about those practices.

              Graham Hagens
              Hamilton, ON

              --- On Thu, 2/3/11, Lisbeth S. Fried <lizfried@...
              <mailto:lizfried%40umich.edu> > wrote:

              From: Lisbeth S. Fried <lizfried@... <mailto:lizfried%40umich.edu> >
              Subject: [ANE-2] Question about sacrifice
              To: ANE-2@yahoogroups.com <mailto:ANE-2%40yahoogroups.com>
              Date: Thursday, February 3, 2011, 12:28 PM

              Dear All,

              I'm reading an article now which suggests that the whole burnt offering in
              the temple of YHW at Elephantine was disallowed not because of any problem
              with it by the priests of YHWH in Jerusalem who only wanted worship there,
              but because of the Zoroastrian problem of contaminating fire with a dead
              animal.

              My question is, how was meat presented to the gods of Egypt, Babylon, Asia
              Minor etc? Were these meats cooked on top of a stove, so to speak, and not
              put directly in contact with the fire? Was Judah unique in this regard?

              Thanks for your help,

              Liz

              Lisbeth S. Fried, Ph.D.
              Department of Near Eastern Studies
              and the Frankel Center for Judaic Studies
              University of Michigan
              202 S. Thayer -- Room 4111
              Ann Arbor, MI 48104
              www.lizfried.com <http://www.lizfried.com/>

              [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

              [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

              [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]











              [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
            • Lampros F. Kallenos
              Is the Mycenean case relevant to the question? Yannis HAMILAKIS, Eleni KONSOLAKI Pigs for the Gods. Burnt Animal Sacrifices As Embodied Rituals At A Mycenaean
              Message 6 of 9 , Feb 7, 2011
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                Is the Mycenean case relevant to the question?


                Yannis HAMILAKIS, Eleni KONSOLAKI
                Pigs for the Gods. Burnt Animal Sacrifices As Embodied
                Rituals At A Mycenaean Sanctuary.
                Oxford Journal of Archaeology, 23(2) 2004 135–151
                http://corinth.sas.upenn.edu/dgr/sanctuaries/methana_aykon_animals.pdf


                Classics Doctoral Student Finds Bones that Prove Homer was
                Right About Sacrifices
                Date: Jan. 20, 2001
                http://www.uc.edu/news/burnt.htm


                Classics Doctoral Student Finds Bones That Prove Homer Was
                Right About Sacrifices
                Source: University Of Cincinnati
                Date: 2001-01-23
                http://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2001/01/010123074805.htm



                _____________________________
                Λάμπρος Φ. Καλλένος
                Ιδάλιον, Λευκωσία
                Κύπρος
                --
              • Lisbeth S. Fried
                Dear David, Thank you very much for this interesting report. Regarding the references in the Ugaritic material, I think the references are from the Aqht myth.
                Message 7 of 9 , Feb 8, 2011
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                  Dear David,

                  Thank you very much for this interesting report.

                  Regarding the references in the Ugaritic material, I think the references are from the Aqht myth.

                  I. 185 dbḥ ilm yšʿly , the sacrifice to the gods he offered up, which doesn’t say anything about how it was done, unfortunately.

                  I think it’s right tho that in Egypt and Babylon the food was cooked in kitchens on stoves or in ovens, and then presented.

                  Liz



                  Lisbeth S. Fried, Ph.D.
                  Ann Arbor, MI 48104
                  www.lizfried.com <http://www.lizfried.com/>





                  _____

                  From: ANE-2@yahoogroups.com [mailto:ANE-2@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of David Hall
                  Sent: Saturday, February 05, 2011 8:41 PM
                  To: ANE-2@yahoogroups.com
                  Subject: Re: [ANE-2] Question about sacrifice





                  Hello Liz,

                  The horned altar was in use since Minoan times on Santorini destroyed by
                  volcanic eruption as early as the MBA. I have read reports of altars on Crete
                  with burnt bones in use as early as Minoan times. I googled (google.com not
                  google.co.uk) search words to see if someone could pick up any information about
                  "Minoan altars burnt bones" and found there are scattered references
                  online. Altars and burnt bones on Greek islands north of Crete were reported in
                  various archaeological publications.

                  Those who have worked translating the tablets of Ugarit insisted the people at
                  Ras Shamra used "burnt offerings." This may imply roasting rather than boiling
                  meat in a cooking pot. I am not an expert on the translation of Ugarit tablets,
                  but some claimed phrases at Ugarit were parallel to Bible phrases. Ugarit was
                  destroyed in the first quarter of the 12th century BC before the Bible was
                  written.

                  Leonard Woolley mentioned a kitchen in the ziggurat at Ur where the food of the
                  gods was cooked.

                  An altar with an ash pile next to it was reported by Haines at Nippur, but the
                  dating of the altar is not certain. This reference was from the unpublished
                  Nippur field reports at the U. of Pennsylvania Museum of Archaeology
                  and Anthropology Archives in Philadelphia.

                  The Egyptians offered all sorts of food offerings. As far as I know they have
                  not been found to have made burnt offerings on altars, but did use incense in
                  their temples. Hatshetsup sent a naval expedition to acquire incense near the
                  Horn of Africa.

                  David Q. Hall
                  Falls Church, Virginia



                  ________________________________
                  From: Lisbeth S. Fried <lizfried@... <mailto:lizfried%40umich.edu> >
                  To: ANE-2@yahoogroups.com <mailto:ANE-2%40yahoogroups.com>
                  Sent: Fri, February 4, 2011 10:26:37 AM
                  Subject: RE: [ANE-2] Question about sacrifice


                  Hi Graham,

                  That's a really good question, the author (maddingly) doesn't address the
                  issue. I know that they also used animal sacrifice, but I'd have to assume
                  that the animal was cooked on a stove or something so the carcass didn't
                  come in contact with the fire. I mean the people weren't/aren't vegetarians,
                  they ate/eat meat.

                  I learned from a friend of mine that according to Homer the Greeks roasted
                  their sacrifices on spits in a fire. My friend, Eric Orlin, says that they
                  were influenced by Canaanite practice, not vice versa, but I don't know how
                  he knows that.

                  In any case, if the Egyptians cooked their sacrifices on a stove and then
                  presented it to the gods, then that would explain why meat sacrifice was
                  halted only at the Judean temple at Elephantine and not at the temple of
                  Khnum, etc.

                  Liz

                  Lisbeth S. Fried, Ph.D.
                  Visitng Scholar
                  Department of Near Eastern Studies
                  and the Frankel Center for Judaic Studies
                  University of Michigan
                  202 S. Thayer -- Room 4111
                  Ann Arbor, MI 48104
                  www.lizfried.com <http://www.lizfried.com/>

                  _____

                  From: ANE-2@yahoogroups.com <mailto:ANE-2%40yahoogroups.com> [mailto:ANE-2@yahoogroups.com <mailto:ANE-2%40yahoogroups.com> ] On Behalf Of
                  Graham Hagens
                  Sent: Thursday, February 03, 2011 7:46 PM
                  To: ANE-2@yahoogroups.com <mailto:ANE-2%40yahoogroups.com>
                  Subject: Re: [ANE-2] Question about sacrifice

                  Liz: what does the author say about the sacrificial animal immolation
                  carried out by Zoroastrians themselves? From what I have read there seems
                  to be some uncertainty about those practices.

                  Graham Hagens
                  Hamilton, ON

                  --- On Thu, 2/3/11, Lisbeth S. Fried <lizfried@... <mailto:lizfried%40umich.edu>
                  <mailto:lizfried%40umich.edu> > wrote:

                  From: Lisbeth S. Fried <lizfried@... <mailto:lizfried%40umich.edu> <mailto:lizfried%40umich.edu> >
                  Subject: [ANE-2] Question about sacrifice
                  To: ANE-2@yahoogroups.com <mailto:ANE-2%40yahoogroups.com> <mailto:ANE-2%40yahoogroups.com>
                  Date: Thursday, February 3, 2011, 12:28 PM

                  Dear All,

                  I'm reading an article now which suggests that the whole burnt offering in
                  the temple of YHW at Elephantine was disallowed not because of any problem
                  with it by the priests of YHWH in Jerusalem who only wanted worship there,
                  but because of the Zoroastrian problem of contaminating fire with a dead
                  animal.

                  My question is, how was meat presented to the gods of Egypt, Babylon, Asia
                  Minor etc? Were these meats cooked on top of a stove, so to speak, and not
                  put directly in contact with the fire? Was Judah unique in this regard?

                  Thanks for your help,

                  Liz

                  Lisbeth S. Fried, Ph.D.
                  Department of Near Eastern Studies
                  and the Frankel Center for Judaic Studies
                  University of Michigan
                  202 S. Thayer -- Room 4111
                  Ann Arbor, MI 48104
                  www.lizfried.com <http://www.lizfried.com/>

                  [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

                  [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

                  [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

                  [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]





                  [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                • David Hall
                  Liz, See:  Religious Texts from Ugarit, by N. Wyatt, 2nd edition, 2002, Sheffield Press. From tablet KTU 1.119 regarding religious duties during certain
                  Message 8 of 9 , Feb 8, 2011
                  View Source
                  • 0 Attachment
                    Liz,

                    See:  Religious Texts from Ugarit, by N. Wyatt, 2nd edition, 2002, Sheffield
                    Press.

                    From tablet KTU 1.119 regarding religious duties during certain months:

                    pg. 418   "...in the house of sacrifice he will slaughter; and there shall be
                    burnt in the altar room of Baal of Ugarit a lamb and a feral pigeon..."

                    There are other recent sources available as well.  These sources are not easy to
                    locate and few scholars are competent to comment in depth about the Ugaritic
                    religious rituals.  Multiple scholars insisted there were "burnt offerings."

                    David Q. Hall 
                    Falls Church, Virginia

                     



                    ________________________________
                    From: Lisbeth S. Fried <lizfried@...>
                    To: ANE-2@yahoogroups.com
                    Sent: Tue, February 8, 2011 12:59:13 PM
                    Subject: RE: [ANE-2] Question about sacrifice

                     
                    Dear David,

                    Thank you very much for this interesting report.

                    Regarding the references in the Ugaritic material, I think the references are
                    from the Aqht myth.

                    I. 185 dbḥ ilm yšʿly , the sacrifice to the gods he offered up, which doesn’t
                    say anything about how it was done, unfortunately.

                    I think it’s right tho that in Egypt and Babylon the food was cooked in kitchens
                    on stoves or in ovens, and then presented.

                    Liz

                    Lisbeth S. Fried, Ph.D.
                    Ann Arbor, MI 48104
                    www.lizfried.com <http://www.lizfried.com/>

                    _____

                    From: ANE-2@yahoogroups.com [mailto:ANE-2@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of David
                    Hall
                    Sent: Saturday, February 05, 2011 8:41 PM
                    To: ANE-2@yahoogroups.com
                    Subject: Re: [ANE-2] Question about sacrifice

                    Hello Liz,

                    The horned altar was in use since Minoan times on Santorini destroyed by
                    volcanic eruption as early as the MBA. I have read reports of altars on Crete
                    with burnt bones in use as early as Minoan times. I googled (google.com not
                    google.co.uk) search words to see if someone could pick up any information about

                    "Minoan altars burnt bones" and found there are scattered references
                    online. Altars and burnt bones on Greek islands north of Crete were reported in
                    various archaeological publications.

                    Those who have worked translating the tablets of Ugarit insisted the people at
                    Ras Shamra used "burnt offerings." This may imply roasting rather than boiling
                    meat in a cooking pot. I am not an expert on the translation of Ugarit tablets,
                    but some claimed phrases at Ugarit were parallel to Bible phrases. Ugarit was
                    destroyed in the first quarter of the 12th century BC before the Bible was
                    written.

                    Leonard Woolley mentioned a kitchen in the ziggurat at Ur where the food of the
                    gods was cooked.

                    An altar with an ash pile next to it was reported by Haines at Nippur, but the
                    dating of the altar is not certain. This reference was from the unpublished
                    Nippur field reports at the U. of Pennsylvania Museum of Archaeology
                    and Anthropology Archives in Philadelphia.

                    The Egyptians offered all sorts of food offerings. As far as I know they have
                    not been found to have made burnt offerings on altars, but did use incense in
                    their temples. Hatshetsup sent a naval expedition to acquire incense near the
                    Horn of Africa.

                    David Q. Hall
                    Falls Church, Virginia

                    ________________________________
                    From: Lisbeth S. Fried <lizfried@... <mailto:lizfried%40umich.edu> >
                    To: ANE-2@yahoogroups.com <mailto:ANE-2%40yahoogroups.com>
                    Sent: Fri, February 4, 2011 10:26:37 AM
                    Subject: RE: [ANE-2] Question about sacrifice

                    Hi Graham,

                    That's a really good question, the author (maddingly) doesn't address the
                    issue. I know that they also used animal sacrifice, but I'd have to assume
                    that the animal was cooked on a stove or something so the carcass didn't
                    come in contact with the fire. I mean the people weren't/aren't vegetarians,
                    they ate/eat meat.

                    I learned from a friend of mine that according to Homer the Greeks roasted
                    their sacrifices on spits in a fire. My friend, Eric Orlin, says that they
                    were influenced by Canaanite practice, not vice versa, but I don't know how
                    he knows that.

                    In any case, if the Egyptians cooked their sacrifices on a stove and then
                    presented it to the gods, then that would explain why meat sacrifice was
                    halted only at the Judean temple at Elephantine and not at the temple of
                    Khnum, etc.

                    Liz

                    Lisbeth S. Fried, Ph.D.
                    Visitng Scholar
                    Department of Near Eastern Studies
                    and the Frankel Center for Judaic Studies
                    University of Michigan
                    202 S. Thayer -- Room 4111
                    Ann Arbor, MI 48104
                    www.lizfried.com <http://www.lizfried.com/>

                    _____

                    From: ANE-2@yahoogroups.com <mailto:ANE-2%40yahoogroups.com>
                    [mailto:ANE-2@yahoogroups.com <mailto:ANE-2%40yahoogroups.com> ] On Behalf Of
                    Graham Hagens
                    Sent: Thursday, February 03, 2011 7:46 PM
                    To: ANE-2@yahoogroups.com <mailto:ANE-2%40yahoogroups.com>
                    Subject: Re: [ANE-2] Question about sacrifice

                    Liz: what does the author say about the sacrificial animal immolation
                    carried out by Zoroastrians themselves? From what I have read there seems
                    to be some uncertainty about those practices.

                    Graham Hagens
                    Hamilton, ON

                    --- On Thu, 2/3/11, Lisbeth S. Fried <lizfried@...
                    <mailto:lizfried%40umich.edu>

                    <mailto:lizfried%40umich.edu> > wrote:

                    From: Lisbeth S. Fried <lizfried@... <mailto:lizfried%40umich.edu>
                    <mailto:lizfried%40umich.edu> >
                    Subject: [ANE-2] Question about sacrifice
                    To: ANE-2@yahoogroups.com <mailto:ANE-2%40yahoogroups.com>
                    <mailto:ANE-2%40yahoogroups.com>

                    Date: Thursday, February 3, 2011, 12:28 PM

                    Dear All,

                    I'm reading an article now which suggests that the whole burnt offering in
                    the temple of YHW at Elephantine was disallowed not because of any problem
                    with it by the priests of YHWH in Jerusalem who only wanted worship there,
                    but because of the Zoroastrian problem of contaminating fire with a dead
                    animal.

                    My question is, how was meat presented to the gods of Egypt, Babylon, Asia
                    Minor etc? Were these meats cooked on top of a stove, so to speak, and not
                    put directly in contact with the fire? Was Judah unique in this regard?

                    Thanks for your help,

                    Liz

                    Lisbeth S. Fried, Ph.D.
                    Department of Near Eastern Studies
                    and the Frankel Center for Judaic Studies
                    University of Michigan
                    202 S. Thayer -- Room 4111
                    Ann Arbor, MI 48104
                    www.lizfried.com <http://www.lizfried.com/>

                    [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

                    [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

                    [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

                    [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

                    [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]







                    [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
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