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Re: [ANE-2] Re: A New Year's Question:

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  • Robert M Whiting
    Interesting, but completely irrelevant to the original question. Almost everyone who has replied to this has apparently assumed that the question is which is
    Message 1 of 4 , Jan 19, 2011
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      Interesting, but completely irrelevant to the original question. Almost
      everyone who has replied to this has apparently assumed that the question
      is which is preferable, "suffix pronoun" or "pronominal suffix". This is
      not the question at all. Nevertheless, this is the question that everyone
      has tried to answer and it is not an issue. It is taken for granted that
      "suffix pronoun" is used in both Semitic languages and ancient Egyptian as
      a name for a morphological category and that there is no difference
      between a "suffix(ed) pronoun" and a "pronominal suffix".

      "Suffix pronoun" is a morphological category in contradistinction
      to "independent pronoun". As such, it serves a useful purpose in
      classification systems, but outside of this function the concept is better
      expressed by either "suffixed pronoun" or "pronominal suffix". While
      "suffix pronoun" is fine as a morphological classification or category,
      once you use a suffix pronoun it becomes a suffixed pronoun. A "suffix
      pronoun" is a pronoun that has the form of a suffix or can only be used as
      a suffix. A "suffixed pronoun" is a pronoun that has been used as a
      suffix. When speaking of morphological categories, "suffix pronoun" is a
      quite acceptable term; but "suffix pronoun" is really only appropriate
      concerning a morphological category or an individual form or group of
      forms as members of that category. When speaking of usage, "suffixed
      pronoun" or "pronominal suffix" is usually more appropriate, depending on
      whether one is talking about pronouns or suffixes.

      The original questions were:

      (1) Why do Demotists, as a species, buck a universal trend among Semitists
      and Egyptologists in general by using the term "suffix pronoun"
      considerably more frequently than "pronominal suffix" in their work?

      (2) Do Demotists (or anyone for that matter) claim that there is some
      difference between a "suffix(ed) pronoun" and a "pronominal suffix"?

      If anyone cares to try to answer, I'd still be interested.

      Bob Whiting
      whiting@...

      On Mon, 17 Jan 2011, Phoenix wrote:

      > Dear Sirs,
      >
      > "Middle Egyptian Grammar" by James Hoch (1997) states on page 32:
      >
      > "1) The Forms: Of the three sets of pronouns, the suffix pronouns are by
      > far the most widely used,
      > since they are attached to nouns (and nominal forms) to express the
      > genitival notion and additionally
      > they are attached to verb forms to express the subject. The basic
      > function is genitival (even with verbs)
      > and corresponds more or less to the English possessive pronouns "my,"
      > "his,", "their,", etc. Of course,
      > when used as the subject of verbs, they must be translated by English
      > nominative pronouns: "I," "he,"
      > "they," etc. The pronouns are directly attached to the word - after the
      > determinative - and absolutely
      > nothing can separate them from the word to which they are affixed."
      >
      > The term "suffix pronoun" makes sense since the pronoun is inseparably
      > attached to the word in question,
      > at least the way it is explained by Hoch, above.
      >
      > This is a grammar that many students begin a study of Egyptian
      > hieroglyphs with with.
      > It is easy to read, conventional American notebook size (8 1/2" x 11 "
      > size).
      > I find it easier to tote about than Gardiner's third edition. No
      > training wheels necessary!
      >
      > Here is the information for proper reference:
      >
      > "Middle Egyptian Grammar", ©1997 by James E. Hoch, Toronto
      > (SSEA Publications; v. 15)
      > Co-published by the Society for the Study of Egyptian Antiquities
      > ISBN 0-920168-12-4
      >
      > Happy Calendrical New Year!,
      >
      > Demetria Nanos, Chicago, Illinois
      >
      > ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
      >
      > --- In ANE-2@yahoogroups.com, David Lorton <davidlorton@...> wrote:
      > >
      > > My best wishes to all for the New Year 2011!
      > >
      > > When this thread began, I thought some other Egyptologist would jump
      > in with a response to Bob Whitingâ??s original inquiry.
      > >
      > > Since no one did, I thought I might as well make a contribution now,
      > though the thread died down a few days ago. Since the query had to do
      > with an English-language phrase, Iâ??ll confine my response to that
      > language.
      > >
      > > All serious students of the ancient Egyptian language (not just
      > demotists) begin with the stage known as Middle Egyptian. And for
      > decades, weâ??ve had two outstanding grammars, each of them
      > intended as a research grammar but also divided, for teaching purposes,
      > into lessons: Sir Alan Gardiner, _Egyptian Grammar_, and the more recent
      > work by James P. Allen, _Middle Egyptian_. In each grammar, one of the
      > first items the beginner encounters is the set of pronouns in question,
      > which Sir Alan calls â??suffix-pronounsâ?? (note the hyphen)
      > and James Allen calls â??suffix pronounsâ?? (without the
      > hyphen). These pronouns occur in all the stages of the language, up to
      > and including Coptic.
      > >
      > > And thatâ??s it! The term is established in our grammars, with
      > the result that itâ??ll continue to be used for a long time to
      > come, regardless of whether or not it happens to be infelicitous for
      > some technical, linguistic reason. I suppose Doug Petrovich was correct
      > in suggesting the term â??inertiaâ?? to describe the
      > phenomenon.
      > >
      > > David Lorton
      > > Baltimore, Maryland
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