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archaeology question

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  • g_gardner1234
    I was recently reading about an image, that was a composite comprised of a seven candle menorah, a star of David, and a fish. It was reportedly found in the
    Message 1 of 20 , Apr 23, 2006
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      I was recently reading about an image, that was a composite comprised
      of a seven candle menorah, a star of David, and a fish. It was
      reportedly found in the Judean desert in the 1960's as a silver image,
      and then in the 1990's on pottery reportedly found near or on mount
      Zion. I have read pros and cons in relationship to the authenticity of
      this image which is said to be first century ce, but all are from
      non-scholarly sources. Does anyone on the list have any documentation
      or knowledge that would confirm or deny the authenticity of this symbol?

      Many thanks,

      Gene Gardner
    • Joseph I. Lauer
      Gene Gardner asked about an image, that was a composite comprised of a seven candle menorah, a star of David, and a fish. It was reportedly found in the
      Message 2 of 20 , Apr 23, 2006
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        Gene Gardner asked about "an image, that was a composite comprised of a
        seven candle menorah, a star of David, and a fish. It was reportedly found
        in the Judean desert in the 1960's as a silver image, and then in the 1990's
        on pottery reportedly found near or on mount Zion." As Mr. Gardner noted,
        the "pros and cons in relationship to the authenticity of this image which
        is said to be first century ce, ... are from non-scholarly sources."
        The so-called "Messianic Seal" (or aspects of it) was referred to on the
        ANE list by Stephen Goranson, Lampros F. Kallenos, Jim Thorn, and Ross
        Caldwell.
        Stephen Goranson wrote in passing: "There are, surely, fakes: e.g., the
        so-called "messianic seal," a menorah and six-pointed star and fish
        intertwined (one star point the fish tail), presented on several web sites
        and a book (I've not seen the book, Reuven Schmalz and R. Fisher, The
        Messianic Seal of the Jerusalem Church, Tiberias, 1999). That does not look
        like 1st-century iconography to me, but rather a 20th-century invention."
        See
        https://listhost.uchicago.edu/pipermail/ane/2002-November/004401.html
        https://listhost.uchicago.edu/pipermail/ane/2002-November/004406.html
        https://listhost.uchicago.edu/pipermail/ane/2002-November/004414.html
        https://listhost.uchicago.edu/pipermail/ane/2002-November/004415.html
        https://listhost.uchicago.edu/pipermail/ane/2002-November/004419.html
        https://listhost.uchicago.edu/pipermail/ane/2002-November/004416.html
        On the other hand, the "non-scholarly sources" are legion and depictions
        of the seal are being sold as jewelry.
        The "Messianic Seal" is the subject of a reprint of a 1999 Evangelical
        Press News Service article, "Ancient Messianic Synagogue Seal", that can be
        read at http://www.familybible.org/About/MessianicSeal3.htm
        It has a number of picture of objects allegedly excavated by "Tech
        Otecus, an elderly monk who lived as a hermit in the Old City of Jerusalem.
        Otecus said that in the 1960s he had personally excavated about 40 artifacts
        bearing the Messianic Seal from an ancient grotto located in the immediate
        vicinity of the Upper Room on Mount Zion."
        The seal is discussed at http://fp.thebeers.f9.co.uk/messianic_seal.htm
        under the caption "The Jerusalem Messianic Seal. A Mystery". While that
        writer would apparently have liked to believe in the artifact's
        authenticity, he noted certain problems: "Unfortunately there are
        archaeological problems with this idea, as explained to me by Yehuda
        Repuano, a field and research archaeologist working for the Israeli
        government. The first thing that aroused his suspicion that it was not an
        ancient Jewish-Christian symbol was the use of a Magen David, the Star of
        David. It is well known that it only became a symbol of Judaism beginning in
        Medieval times. The lamp was from the Late Hellenistic period (somewhere
        around the first century BC), before the birth of Yeshua. The bowl was hand
        made from the Ayyubid/ Mamaluk period (13th to 16th centuries AD), or
        Ottoman period (16th to 20th centuries AD). The symbol was etched on to the
        lamp which though earlier than the birth of Yeshua, could have been added
        during the Hellenistic period or any time thereafter. The bowl was typically
        painted with red pigment. The symbol was also painted onto the bowl, but in
        a slightly different color which appeared to be on top of the original paint
        of the bowl. Thus, the symbol must have been painted no earlier than the
        13th century AD. However, it was likely added to the bowl at a much later
        time. It is hard to say where this symbol came from and what the motive is
        for its having been presented as ancient. My guess is that the monk was not
        altogether straight forward with Mr Schneider and may have created it.
        Although Hebrew Christianity has been around for some time, I understand
        that Messianic Judaism was revived only in 1967. Before this time I doubt
        that such a combination of a Magen David, fish and menorah would have been
        put together in such a manner."
        The seal is also briefly discussed at
        http://altreligion.about.com/library/glossary/symbols/bldefsmessianic.htm
        It is said to have been patterned after emblems found on a number of
        artifacts believed to have been used by first century Jewish followers of
        Jesus. A picture of one of those artifacts is at the site.
        See also references in publications by various Messianic groups
        http://www.yourarmstoisrael.org/Articles_new/notes/?page=AncientSymbol
        http://www.biblicalisraeltours.com/messianic_seal.htm (with pictures of
        eight objects)
        http://www.olimpublications.com/MessianicSeal.htm (with pictures of eight
        objects)
        http://www.orgsites.com/ga/congregationlevadonai/_pgg4.php3
        http://www.ministryonline.org/seal.htm
        But see
        http://members.localnet.com/~peshitta/articles-something-fishy.html
        The use of the Star of David on the objects should lead one to question
        the authenticity of the inscriptions and the objects.
        Joseph I. Lauer
        Brooklyn, New York
      • goranson@duke.edu
        To my knowledge there is no documented ancient evidence of this image, in fact nothing earlier than that provided by a 20th-century florist. And it is quite
        Message 3 of 20 , Apr 23, 2006
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          To my knowledge there is no documented ancient evidence of this image, in fact
          nothing earlier than that provided by a 20th-century florist. And it is quite
          unlikely, in my view, to be a first century mage.

          Stephen Goranson
          http:..www.duke.edu/~goranson

          Quoting g_gardner1234 <g_gardner1234@...>:

          > I was recently reading about an image, that was a composite comprised
          > of a seven candle menorah, a star of David, and a fish. It was
          > reportedly found in the Judean desert in the 1960's as a silver
          > image, and then in the 1990's on pottery reportedly found near or on mount
          > Zion. I have read pros and cons in relationship to the authenticity of
          > this image which is said to be first century ce, but all are from
          > non-scholarly sources. Does anyone on the list have any documentation
          > or knowledge that would confirm or deny the authenticity of this symbol?
          >
          > Many thanks,
          >
          > Gene Gardner
        • DAVID HALL
          Joseph I. Lauer wrote: The first thing that aroused his suspicion that it was not an ancient Jewish-Christian symbol was the use
          Message 4 of 20 , Apr 24, 2006
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            "Joseph I. Lauer" <josephlauer@...> wrote:

            "The first thing that aroused his suspicion that it was not an
            ancient Jewish-Christian symbol was the use of a Magen David, the Star of
            David. It is well known that it only became a symbol of Judaism beginning in
            Medieval times."

            I was in Capernaum in January of this year and photographed a Magen David from a stone beam of the white synagogue dated from the 4th - 7th centuries by Stanislao Loffreda, RECOVERING CAPHARNAUM (A Franciscan Guide Book sold on the site with no copyright date printed on title page).

            I published a photo of the bas-relief Magen David on a page of photos taken at Capernuam, January 2006.

            http://dqhall59.com/Capernaum.htm

            It is a six pointed star carving next to a five pointed star carving. The artwork was part of a display behind a fence on the site.

            David Q. Hall
            dqhall@...



            [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
          • Robert Whiting
            ... Once again, ignoratio elenchi. The statement was that that the six-pointed star did not become a symbol of Judaism until Medieval times. While your
            Message 5 of 20 , Apr 24, 2006
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              On Mon, 24 Apr 2006, DAVID HALL wrote:

              > "Joseph I. Lauer" <josephlauer@...> wrote:
              >
              > "The first thing that aroused his suspicion that it was not an
              > ancient Jewish-Christian symbol was the use of a Magen David, the Star
              > of David. It is well known that it only became a symbol of Judaism
              > beginning in Medieval times."
              >
              > I was in Capernaum in January of this year and photographed a Magen
              > David from a stone beam of the white synagogue dated from the 4th - 7th
              > centuries by Stanislao Loffreda, RECOVERING CAPHARNAUM (A Franciscan
              > Guide Book sold on the site with no copyright date printed on title
              > page).
              >
              > I published a photo of the bas-relief Magen David on a page of photos
              > taken at Capernuam, January 2006.
              >
              > http://dqhall59.com/Capernaum.htm
              >
              > It is a six pointed star carving next to a five pointed star carving.
              > The artwork was part of a display behind a fence on the site.

              Once again, ignoratio elenchi. The statement was that that the
              six-pointed star did not become a symbol of Judaism until Medieval times.
              While your photograph is interesting it cannot be taken as an indication
              of a six-pointed star as a symbol of Judaism unless the co-equal
              five-pointed star and cluster of grapes are also symbols of Judaism. I
              realize that you have not explicitly made such a claim, but it is implied
              by your text. So six-pointed star -- yes; symbol of Judaism -- no.

              The six-pointed star was a common decorative motif, but its association
              with Judaism did not come until Medieval times. Otherwise, it would not
              be so prominently used on the coinage of the Ayyubid dynasty (particularly
              at Aleppo) during the 13th century. See

              http://users.rcn.com/j-roberts/329.htm
              http://users.rcn.com/j-roberts/367.htm
              http://users.rcn.com/j-roberts/74.htm


              Bob Whiting
              whiting@...
            • DAVID HALL
              This particular Magen David was a Jewish Symbol; although it may not have been claimed as a Jewish trademark at this early date. I do not think the wine
              Message 6 of 20 , Apr 24, 2006
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                This particular Magen David was a Jewish Symbol; although it may not have been claimed as a Jewish trademark at this early date. I do not think the wine amphora was a late Islamic symbol either. The context of historical references, the architecture, and symbols; including a carving of what they thought the ark of the convenant appeared like render the interpretation of this site as Jewish.

                David Q. Hall

                Robert Whiting <whiting@...> wrote:
                On Mon, 24 Apr 2006, DAVID HALL wrote:

                > "Joseph I. Lauer" <josephlauer@...> wrote:
                >
                > "The first thing that aroused his suspicion that it was not an
                > ancient Jewish-Christian symbol was the use of a Magen David, the Star
                > of David. It is well known that it only became a symbol of Judaism
                > beginning in Medieval times."
                >
                > I was in Capernaum in January of this year and photographed a Magen
                > David from a stone beam of the white synagogue dated from the 4th - 7th
                > centuries by Stanislao Loffreda, RECOVERING CAPHARNAUM (A Franciscan
                > Guide Book sold on the site with no copyright date printed on title
                > page).
                >
                > I published a photo of the bas-relief Magen David on a page of photos
                > taken at Capernuam, January 2006.
                >
                > http://dqhall59.com/Capernaum.htm
                >
                > It is a six pointed star carving next to a five pointed star carving.
                > The artwork was part of a display behind a fence on the site.

                Once again, ignoratio elenchi. The statement was that that the
                six-pointed star did not become a symbol of Judaism until Medieval times.
                While your photograph is interesting it cannot be taken as an indication
                of a six-pointed star as a symbol of Judaism unless the co-equal
                five-pointed star and cluster of grapes are also symbols of Judaism. I
                realize that you have not explicitly made such a claim, but it is implied
                by your text. So six-pointed star -- yes; symbol of Judaism -- no.

                The six-pointed star was a common decorative motif, but its association
                with Judaism did not come until Medieval times. Otherwise, it would not
                be so prominently used on the coinage of the Ayyubid dynasty (particularly
                at Aleppo) during the 13th century. See

                http://users.rcn.com/j-roberts/329.htm
                http://users.rcn.com/j-roberts/367.htm
                http://users.rcn.com/j-roberts/74.htm


                Bob Whiting
                whiting@...
              • g_gardner1234
                ... times. ... implied ... (particularly ... I was looking around on the net a while back, and I stumbled across an exhibit from the Baghdad museum titled
                Message 7 of 20 , Apr 24, 2006
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                  --- In ANE-2@yahoogroups.com, Robert Whiting <whiting@...> wrote:

                  > Once again, ignoratio elenchi. The statement was that that the
                  > six-pointed star did not become a symbol of Judaism until Medieval
                  times.
                  > While your photograph is interesting it cannot be taken as an indication
                  > of a six-pointed star as a symbol of Judaism unless the co-equal
                  > five-pointed star and cluster of grapes are also symbols of Judaism. I
                  > realize that you have not explicitly made such a claim, but it is
                  implied
                  > by your text. So six-pointed star -- yes; symbol of Judaism -- no.
                  >
                  > The six-pointed star was a common decorative motif, but its association
                  > with Judaism did not come until Medieval times. Otherwise, it would not
                  > be so prominently used on the coinage of the Ayyubid dynasty
                  (particularly
                  > at Aleppo) during the 13th century. See
                  >
                  > http://users.rcn.com/j-roberts/329.htm
                  > http://users.rcn.com/j-roberts/367.htm
                  > http://users.rcn.com/j-roberts/74.htm>


                  I was looking around on the net a while back, and I stumbled across an
                  exhibit from the Baghdad museum titled "Secrets of Nimrud". It is a
                  catalogue of ancient artifacts that were put on display in Iraq after
                  the fall of Saddam.A hexagram is shown here:

                  http://www.baghdadmuseum.org/secret/pages/383.htm

                  The main site can be viewed here:

                  http://www.baghdadmuseum.org/#

                  Gene Gardner
                • Judith Lerner
                  Re the Capernaum carvings, I believe a swastika occurs along with the pentagram and hexagram--but I ve not been able to locate a photo; does anyone have one or
                  Message 8 of 20 , Apr 24, 2006
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                    Re the Capernaum carvings, I believe a swastika occurs along with the
                    pentagram and hexagram--but I've not been able to locate a photo; does
                    anyone have one or know where one can be found?

                    Judith Lerner

                    On Mon, 24 Apr 2006, DAVID HALL wrote:

                    > "Joseph I. Lauer" <josephlauer@...> wrote:
                    >
                    > "The first thing that aroused his suspicion that it was not an
                    > ancient Jewish-Christian symbol was the use of a Magen David, the Star
                    > of David. It is well known that it only became a symbol of Judaism
                    > beginning in Medieval times."

                    Once again, ignoratio elenchi. The statement was that that the
                    six-pointed star did not become a symbol of Judaism until Medieval times.
                    While your photograph is interesting it cannot be taken as an indication
                    of a six-pointed star as a symbol of Judaism unless the co-equal
                    five-pointed star and cluster of grapes are also symbols of Judaism. I
                    realize that you have not explicitly made such a claim, but it is implied
                    by your text. So six-pointed star -- yes; symbol of Judaism -- no.

                    The six-pointed star was a common decorative motif, but its association
                    with Judaism did not come until Medieval times. Otherwise, it would not
                    be so prominently used on the coinage of the Ayyubid dynasty (particularly
                    at Aleppo) during the 13th century. See

                    http://users.rcn.com/j-roberts/329.htm
                    http://users.rcn.com/j-roberts/367.htm
                    http://users.rcn.com/j-roberts/74.htm


                    Bob Whiting
                    whiting@...
                  • DAVID HALL
                    ... times. ... implied ... That text has since been changed. As for this statement:
                    Message 9 of 20 , Apr 25, 2006
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                      > Once again, ignoratio elenchi. The statement was that that the
                      > six-pointed star did not become a symbol of Judaism until Medieval
                      times.
                      > While your photograph is interesting it cannot be taken as an indication
                      > of a six-pointed star as a symbol of Judaism unless the co-equal
                      > five-pointed star and cluster of grapes are also symbols of Judaism. I
                      > realize that you have not explicitly made such a claim, but it is
                      implied
                      > by your text.

                      That text has since been changed.

                      As for this statement:

                      <The first thing that aroused his suspicion that it was not an
                      <ancient Jewish-Christian symbol was the use of a Magen David, the Star of
                      <David. It is well known that it only became a symbol of Judaism beginning in
                      <Medieval times. The lamp was from the Late Hellenistic period (somewhere
                      <around the first century BC), before the birth of Yeshua. The bowl was hand
                      <made from the Ayyubid/ Mamaluk period (13th to 16th centuries AD), or
                      <Ottoman period (16th to 20th centuries AD).

                      I posted the link to the photo to show that the statement above is suspected as being insufficient. In a few minutes I found a Magen David used before the Islamic conquest in a Jewish context although it was previously considered an error to assume an early Jewish use of the symbol. If an artifact is dated to Crusadar/Medieval times merely because of the existence of a six sided star, then you might get people stating that the White Synagogue at Capernaum was really from Medieval times, when there were ancient coins, and other means used in dating it to Byzantine times.

                      David Q. Hall



                      [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                    • Joe Zias
                      I have seen the object in question for sale on several web sites and was surprised that anyone would take it seriously as an ancient artifact. It clearly is
                      Message 10 of 20 , Apr 25, 2006
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                        I have seen the object in question for sale on several web sites and was surprised that anyone would take it seriously as an ancient artifact. It clearly is made for the tourist mkt which is conned too easily for these trinkets. As for the six pointed 'star of David' ,from time to time tourists in the mkts of Jerusalem would approach us with coins they had purchased from shops showing a modern day bronze coin, I believe from Morocco, showing the star. Sellers then told the naive tourist that it was of great value as it had the Islamic script and 'star of David' together. Basically it was worthless.

                        Joe Zias

                        DAVID HALL <dqhall@...> wrote:


                        > Once again, ignoratio elenchi. The statement was that that the
                        > six-pointed star did not become a symbol of Judaism until Medieval
                        times.
                        > While your photograph is interesting it cannot be taken as an indication
                        > of a six-pointed star as a symbol of Judaism unless the co-equal
                        > five-pointed star and cluster of grapes are also symbols of Judaism. I
                        > realize that you have not explicitly made such a claim, but it is
                        implied
                        > by your text.

                        That text has since been changed.

                        As for this statement:

                        <The first thing that aroused his suspicion that it was not an
                        <ancient Jewish-Christian symbol was the use of a Magen David, the Star of
                        <David. It is well known that it only became a symbol of Judaism beginning in
                        <Medieval times. The lamp was from the Late Hellenistic period (somewhere
                        <around the first century BC), before the birth of Yeshua. The bowl was hand
                        <made from the Ayyubid/ Mamaluk period (13th to 16th centuries AD), or
                        <Ottoman period (16th to 20th centuries AD).

                        I posted the link to the photo to show that the statement above is suspected as being insufficient. In a few minutes I found a Magen David used before the Islamic conquest in a Jewish context although it was previously considered an error to assume an early Jewish use of the symbol. If an artifact is dated to Crusadar/Medieval times merely because of the existence of a six sided star, then you might get people stating that the White Synagogue at Capernaum was really from Medieval times, when there were ancient coins, and other means used in dating it to Byzantine times.

                        David Q. Hall



                        [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]





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                        [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                      • Trudy S. Kawami
                        The object in question clearly doees not refer to the lintel from the Capharnaum sysnagogue. What object qre you referring to?Or did I snooze through a
                        Message 11 of 20 , Apr 25, 2006
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                          "The object in question" clearly doees not refer to the lintel from
                          the Capharnaum sysnagogue. What object qre you referring to?Or did I
                          snooze through a post?)
                          Trudy Kawami



                          --- In ANE-2@yahoogroups.com, Joe Zias <joezias@...> wrote:
                          >
                          > I have seen the object in question for sale on several web sites
                          and was surprised that anyone would take it seriously as an ancient
                          artifact. It clearly is made for the tourist mkt which is conned too
                          easily for these trinkets. As for the six pointed 'star of
                          David' ,from time to time tourists in the mkts of Jerusalem would
                          approach us with coins they had purchased from shops showing a modern
                          day bronze coin, I believe from Morocco, showing the star. Sellers
                          then told the naive tourist that it was of great value as it had the
                          Islamic script and 'star of David' together. Basically it was
                          worthless.
                          >
                          > Joe Zias
                          >
                          >
                        • Robert Whiting
                          http://islamiccoinsgroup.50g.com/assikka31/solomon.htm ... By definition, since it is part of a synagogue. And if it were part of a church it would be a
                          Message 12 of 20 , Apr 25, 2006
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                            http://islamiccoinsgroup.50g.com/assikka31/solomon.htm

                            On Mon, 24 Apr 2006, DAVID HALL wrote:

                            > This particular Magen David was a Jewish Symbol;

                            By definition, since it is part of a synagogue. And if it were part of a
                            church it would be a Christian symbol and if it were part of a mosque it
                            would be an Islamic symbol. But there is a significan difference between
                            a "Jewish symbol" and a "symobl of Judaism".

                            Basically, it is a universal symbol, widely used by a number of religions
                            and cultures. But it didn't become a symbol of Judaism until very late.
                            both the six-pointed and the five-pointed star (also a "Jewish symbol" by
                            your definition since it also appears on the synagogue decoration) have
                            been variously associated with the "Seal of Solomon" and used by
                            Christians, Jews and Muslims.

                            See

                            http://www.mfa.gov.il/MFA/MFAArchive/1990_1999/1999/2/King%20Solomon-s%20Seal

                            You can also consult

                            http://www.jewishencyclopedia.com/view.jsp?artid=895&letter=S

                            and

                            http://www.jewishencyclopedia.com/view.jsp?artid=38&letter=M

                            > although it may not have been claimed as a Jewish trademark at this
                            > early date. I do not think the wine amphora was a late Islamic symbol
                            > either. The context of historical references, the architecture, and
                            > symbols; including a carving of what they thought the ark of the
                            > convenant appeared like render the interpretation of this site as
                            > Jewish.

                            I don't think that this is in question. But it is the Jewishness of the
                            site that makes the six-pointed star a "Jewish symbol" here. It is not
                            the presence of the six-pointed star that makes this a Jewish site since
                            the six-pointed star also occurs as a decoration at Christian and Muslim
                            sites.


                            Bob Whiting
                            whiting@...
                          • Robert Whiting
                            On Tue, 25 Apr 2006, DAVID HALL wrote: [Robert Whiting wrote:] ... Yes, it is better now. At least the inference is going in the right direction. ... I doubt
                            Message 13 of 20 , Apr 25, 2006
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                              On Tue, 25 Apr 2006, DAVID HALL wrote:

                              [Robert Whiting wrote:]
                              > > Once again, ignoratio elenchi. The statement was that that the
                              > > six-pointed star did not become a symbol of Judaism until Medieval
                              > > times.
                              > > While your photograph is interesting it cannot be taken as an
                              > > indication of a six-pointed star as a symbol of Judaism unless the
                              > > co-equal five-pointed star and cluster of grapes are also symbols of
                              > > Judaism. I realize that you have not explicitly made such a claim,
                              > > but it is implied by your text.
                              >
                              > That text has since been changed.

                              Yes, it is better now. At least the inference is going in the right
                              direction.

                              > As for this statement:
                              >
                              > <The first thing that aroused his suspicion that it was not an
                              > <ancient Jewish-Christian symbol was the use of a Magen David, the Star of
                              > <David. It is well known that it only became a symbol of Judaism beginning in
                              > <Medieval times. The lamp was from the Late Hellenistic period (somewhere
                              > <around the first century BC), before the birth of Yeshua. The bowl was hand
                              > <made from the Ayyubid/ Mamaluk period (13th to 16th centuries AD), or
                              > <Ottoman period (16th to 20th centuries AD).
                              >
                              > I posted the link to the photo to show that the statement above is
                              > suspected as being insufficient. In a few minutes I found a Magen David
                              > used before the Islamic conquest in a Jewish context although it was
                              > previously considered an error to assume an early Jewish use of the
                              > symbol. If an artifact is dated to Crusadar/Medieval times merely
                              > because of the existence of a six sided star, then you might get people
                              > stating that the White Synagogue at Capernaum was really from Medieval
                              > times, when there were ancient coins, and other means used in dating it
                              > to Byzantine times.

                              I doubt that any archaeologist with enough professional reputation to get
                              an excavation permit would be likely to do such a thing. Archaelolgists
                              and art historians are well aware that six-pointed stars have been in use
                              for quite some time and have been used by Christians, Jews and Muslims.
                              The presence of one does not imply anything in particular about the date
                              or the originator of the symbol. The symbol was widely used for its
                              amuletic protective power, but not as symbolic of any particular religion.
                              That came later.

                              Again, see

                              http://www.mfa.gov.il/MFA/MFAArchive/1990_1999/1999/2/King%20Solomon-s%20Seal


                              Bob Whiting
                              whiting@...
                            • Joe Zias
                              The whole thread, if I m correct, began with a trinket for sale depicting a fish, menorah, star of david which according to someone on the list was alledgedly
                              Message 14 of 20 , Apr 26, 2006
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                                The whole thread, if I'm correct, began with a trinket for sale depicting a fish, menorah, star of david which according to someone on the list was alledgedly discovered in the ANE.
                                It then spun off in other directions and I snoozed as the thread went off in other directions which were not related to the trinket.

                                Joe


                                "Trudy S. Kawami" <tkawami@...> wrote:
                                "The object in question" clearly doees not refer to the lintel from
                                the Capharnaum sysnagogue. What object qre you referring to?Or did I
                                snooze through a post?)
                                Trudy Kawami



                                --- In ANE-2@yahoogroups.com, Joe Zias <joezias@...> wrote:
                                >
                                > I have seen the object in question for sale on several web sites
                                and was surprised that anyone would take it seriously as an ancient
                                artifact. It clearly is made for the tourist mkt which is conned too
                                easily for these trinkets. As for the six pointed 'star of
                                David' ,from time to time tourists in the mkts of Jerusalem would
                                approach us with coins they had purchased from shops showing a modern
                                day bronze coin, I believe from Morocco, showing the star. Sellers
                                then told the naive tourist that it was of great value as it had the
                                Islamic script and 'star of David' together. Basically it was
                                worthless.
                                >
                                > Joe Zias
                                >
                                >





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                              • g_gardner1234
                                ... depicting a fish, menorah, star of david which according to someone on the list was alledgedly discovered in the ANE. ... went off in other directions
                                Message 15 of 20 , Apr 26, 2006
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                                  --- In ANE-2@yahoogroups.com, Joe Zias <joezias@...> wrote:
                                  >
                                  > The whole thread, if I'm correct, began with a trinket for sale
                                  depicting a fish, menorah, star of david which according to someone on
                                  the list was alledgedly discovered in the ANE.
                                  > It then spun off in other directions and I snoozed as the thread
                                  went off in other directions which were not related to the trinket.
                                  >
                                  > Joe
                                  >
                                  I had posed the question originally. When I heard about the symbol, it
                                  didn't make any sense, so I figured that I would bring it to the heavy
                                  weights for some input. Thank you all for your comments.

                                  While I have Mr Zias attention, I would like to pose another question
                                  that may have already been asked a thousand times, so please bear with
                                  me. Many years ago, I saw a program that had the chief Rabbi of
                                  Jerusalem (at that time)being interviewed about a supposed dig that
                                  was going on below the Temple mount. He stated that the Ark of the
                                  Covenant was found below the Temple mount in a chamber. I have never
                                  seen any other proof of this find, and since you were working with
                                  Israeli antiquities at that time, I would like to hear your
                                  explanation of what actually occurred.

                                  Thank you,

                                  Gene Gardner
                                • Trudy Kawami
                                  Thanks, I guess we were all snoozing (even Homer nodded). Trudy ________________________________ From: ANE-2@yahoogroups.com [mailto:ANE-2@yahoogroups.com] On
                                  Message 16 of 20 , Apr 26, 2006
                                  • 0 Attachment
                                    Thanks, I guess we were all snoozing (even Homer nodded).

                                    Trudy



                                    ________________________________

                                    From: ANE-2@yahoogroups.com [mailto:ANE-2@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of
                                    Joe Zias
                                    Sent: Wednesday, April 26, 2006 7:32 AM
                                    To: ANE-2@yahoogroups.com
                                    Subject: Re: [ANE-2] Re: archaeology question



                                    The whole thread, if I'm correct, began with a trinket for sale
                                    depicting a fish, menorah, star of david which according to someone on
                                    the list was alledgedly discovered in the ANE.
                                    It then spun off in other directions and I snoozed as the thread went
                                    off in other directions which were not related to the trinket.

                                    Joe


                                    "Trudy S. Kawami" <tkawami@...> wrote:
                                    "The object in question" clearly doees not refer to the lintel from
                                    the Capharnaum sysnagogue. What object qre you referring to?Or did I
                                    snooze through a post?)
                                    Trudy Kawami



                                    --- In ANE-2@yahoogroups.com, Joe Zias <joezias@...> wrote:
                                    >
                                    > I have seen the object in question for sale on several web sites
                                    and was surprised that anyone would take it seriously as an ancient
                                    artifact. It clearly is made for the tourist mkt which is conned too
                                    easily for these trinkets. As for the six pointed 'star of
                                    David' ,from time to time tourists in the mkts of Jerusalem would
                                    approach us with coins they had purchased from shops showing a modern
                                    day bronze coin, I believe from Morocco, showing the star. Sellers
                                    then told the naive tourist that it was of great value as it had the
                                    Islamic script and 'star of David' together. Basically it was
                                    worthless.
                                    >
                                    > Joe Zias
                                    >
                                    >





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                                    [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                                  • Niels Peter Lemche
                                    ... on ... it ... heavy ... question ... with ... I always say to my students: Look for the ark in New York in one of the store houses at the harbour.
                                    Message 17 of 20 , Apr 26, 2006
                                    • 0 Attachment
                                      --- In ANE-2@yahoogroups.com, "g_gardner1234" <g_gardner1234@...>
                                      wrote:
                                      >
                                      > --- In ANE-2@yahoogroups.com, Joe Zias <joezias@> wrote:
                                      > >
                                      > > The whole thread, if I'm correct, began with a trinket for sale
                                      > depicting a fish, menorah, star of david which according to someone
                                      on
                                      > the list was alledgedly discovered in the ANE.
                                      > > It then spun off in other directions and I snoozed as the thread
                                      > went off in other directions which were not related to the trinket.
                                      > >
                                      > > Joe
                                      > >
                                      > I had posed the question originally. When I heard about the symbol,
                                      it
                                      > didn't make any sense, so I figured that I would bring it to the
                                      heavy
                                      > weights for some input. Thank you all for your comments.
                                      >
                                      > While I have Mr Zias attention, I would like to pose another
                                      question
                                      > that may have already been asked a thousand times, so please bear
                                      with
                                      > me. Many years ago, I saw a program that had the chief Rabbi of
                                      > Jerusalem (at that time)being interviewed about a supposed dig that
                                      > was going on below the Temple mount. He stated that the Ark of the
                                      > Covenant was found below the Temple mount in a chamber. I have never
                                      > seen any other proof of this find, and since you were working with
                                      > Israeli antiquities at that time, I would like to hear your
                                      > explanation of what actually occurred.
                                      >
                                      > Thank you,
                                      >
                                      > Gene Gardner
                                      >
                                      I always say to my students: Look for the ark in New York in one of
                                      the store houses at the harbour. Spielberg showed us its lasting
                                      resting place, never to be found again.

                                      To be serious; nothing of the kind was ever found. It would have been
                                      the sensation of the 20th century. The good rabbi was dreaming if he
                                      really said so.

                                      Niels Peter Lemche
                                    • Joe Zias
                                      Our colleague Mr. Gardner asked the following:
                                      Message 18 of 20 , Apr 27, 2006
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                                        Our colleague Mr. Gardner asked the following:

                                        <Many years ago, I saw a program that had the chief Rabbi of
                                        Jerusalem (at that time)being interviewed about a supposed dig that
                                        was going on below the Temple mount. He stated that the Ark of the
                                        Covenant was found below the Temple mount in a chamber. I have never
                                        seen any other proof of this find, and since you were working with
                                        Israeli antiquities at that time, I would like to hear your
                                        explanation of what actually occurred.>

                                        Having worked for 3 decades in the profession one has probably seen it all and one of the more disturbing things lately is what I would term "Biblical Archaeology as ATM", in that the more ludicrous the claim the more successful the scam. The public wants signs and wonders and they are too many folks out there purporting to find miraculous things, publish books of dubious claims, the list is long. Personally I find this disturbing to the profession as I feel that the profession itself takes precedence over the individual and his or her career. There is too much collusion between those in the profession and those in the world of publishing to the detriment of the profession. These ark claims, whether it be Noah's ark, ark of the covenant, groups which call themselves 'arkologists' , blood of Jesus found in Jerusalem etc are literally a dime a dozen and one is continually confronted with these bogus claims designed to attract fame and funding. The higher the profile the
                                        more money can be gained via the "Archaeology as ATM syndrome" Qumran and the Dead Sea Scrolls, probably being the best example. A couple of years ago the editor of BAR, in a sensational article called "Jews save the bones of your ancestors" claimed that tombs in Qumran were being looted and as evidence showed metal from a supposed lead coffin. Sure enough the money rolled in to the tune of tens of thousands of dollars, from private nonprofit foundations, NOVA did a documentary, and the metal 'coffin' of the rich man, sans any skeleton or any coffin other than a 1 millimeter thick piece of zinc was published in two leading journals. Having initially been involved in the process as anthropological adviser for the excavation and seeing what was going on I immediately resigned and wrote an article entitled "Skeletons with multiple personality disorders and other grave errors" claiming that the metal coffin along with some skeletal evidence, C-14 dated to the pre-historic
                                        period, was planted in the excavation to satisfy funders, the media and film makers. Naturally, the excavators, one of whom is now under police investigation over some Dead Sea scrolls purchases denied the charges in an article entitled "Zias's cemetery". I might add that several of those involved in this affair or authenticating something which I claimed to have been planted in Qumran were also involved in the James Ossuary/Jeohash inscription scam. While it basically came down to my word against theirs, despite all the evidence which I mounted in favor of the 'metal coffin of the rich man' having been planted, the allegation was but an allegation until last year when the lid of the coffin of the '2,000 year old famous man from Qumran" was found to be coated with Barium-Titanium paint, a coating which was first marketed in the 1920's to retard surface metal oxidation. In the US or any of the worlds leading universities, such an act would have brought an investigation
                                        and immediate censure or firing of those involved. Unfortunately, in the world of Biblical Archaeology, where just about anything goes, no one was fired, censured and it became just another day in the world of Biblical Archaeology, where scams, fraudulent claims, and anything short of the miraculous has become commonplace. As a result I tell colleagues and others when confronted with these bizarre, wild and undocumented claims that perhaps time had come to heed the advice of H.L. Mencken, to new journalists, 'if you mother says she loves you, better check it out" lest we fall deeper into the predicment which we are currently involved in. Remember what Nietzche said the world is divided into those who wish to know and those who wish to believe. Lately the borders seem to have become blurred between knowing and believing do to the search for fame, funding, fortune and the miraculous. Be skeptical, even when it comes from those in the profession.

                                        Joe Zias, Jerusalem


                                        g_gardner1234 <g_gardner1234@...> wrote:
                                        >


                                        While I have Mr Zias attention, I would like to pose another question
                                        that may have already been asked a thousand times, so please bear with
                                        me. Many years ago, I saw a program that had the chief Rabbi of
                                        Jerusalem (at that time)being interviewed about a supposed dig that
                                        was going on below the Temple mount. He stated that the Ark of the
                                        Covenant was found below the Temple mount in a chamber. I have never
                                        seen any other proof of this find, and since you were working with
                                        Israeli antiquities at that time, I would like to hear your
                                        explanation of what actually occurred.

                                        Thank you,

                                        Gene Gardner
                                      • g_gardner1234
                                        ... seen it all and one of the more disturbing things lately is what I would term Biblical Archaeology as ATM , in that the more ludicrous the claim the more
                                        Message 19 of 20 , Apr 27, 2006
                                        • 0 Attachment
                                          --- In ANE-2@yahoogroups.com, Joe Zias <joezias@...> wrote:

                                          > Having worked for 3 decades in the profession one has probably
                                          seen it all and one of the more disturbing things lately is what I
                                          would term "Biblical Archaeology as ATM", in that the more ludicrous
                                          the claim the more successful the scam. <

                                          Mr Zias then went on to detail a littany of archaeological horrors.
                                          Thanks for the peek behind the curtain Joe.
                                        • g_gardner1234
                                          On April 26, 2006 I posted this question in post # 1305 : I was recently reading about an image, that was a composite comprised of a seven candle menorah, a
                                          Message 20 of 20 , Aug 4, 2006
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                                            On April 26, 2006 I posted this question in post # 1305 :

                                            "I was recently reading about an image, that was a composite comprised
                                            of a seven candle menorah, a star of David, and a fish. It was
                                            reportedly found in the Judean desert in the 1960's as a silver image,
                                            and then in the 1990's on pottery reportedly found near or on mount
                                            Zion. I have read pros and cons in relationship to the authenticity of
                                            this image which is said to be first century ce, but all are from
                                            non-scholarly sources. Does anyone on the list have any documentation
                                            or knowledge that would confirm or deny the authenticity of this symbol?"

                                            I personally have read nothing that is even remotely scholarly, that
                                            validates this symbol as being first century, but I keep witnessing
                                            discussions on the internet about it. This was one of the sites that
                                            was recently mentioned:

                                            http://www.olimpublications.com/MessianicSeal.htm

                                            I have never heard of any of these people. Does anyone on the forum
                                            have any other information? It appears to me that this is a recently
                                            created "artifact". Thank you all for your earlier responses.


                                            Gene Gardner
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