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Re: Re: SV: SV: [ANE-2] SV: Reading revolutions

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  • X.Wang
    Thanks for response. Yes, as far as my knowledge of the divinationary process allows, I am sure the Jinsha bones were used for the same purpose. The only
    Message 1 of 10 , Aug 26, 2010
      Thanks for response. Yes, as far as my knowledge of the divinationary process allows, I am sure the Jinsha bones were used for the same purpose. The only difference is that they don't have inscriptions on them.

      Xianhua
      2010-08-27




      Dr. Xianhua Wang
      Department of History
      Peking University
      Beijing 100871, China



      发件人: Peter T. Daniels
      发送时间: 2010-08-27 02:06:45
      收件人: ANE-2
      抄送:
      主题: Re: SV: SV: [ANE-2] SV: Reading revolutions


      Note also that a roll of uninscribed papyrus-paper was found in a very early
      Egyptian tomb. What purpose could it have served?

      Are you saying that the Jinsha people did the same sort of divination as the
      Xiaotun people, by interpreting the cracks in fired bones? It seems a reasonable
      step that once writing had proved useful to the accountants, the diviners could
      have realized that it could be useful in being sure the gods understood the
      question that was being asked -- and, of course, it served the ultimate
      bureaucratic purpose of keeping a record of the official decision.--
      Peter T. Daniels grammatim@...





      [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
    • X.Wang
      Upon a second thought: Did the Egyptians use papyrus rolls for functionalities other than for writing? In the case of the Jinsha bones, there might be a
      Message 2 of 10 , Aug 26, 2010
        Upon a second thought: Did the Egyptians use papyrus rolls for functionalities other than for writing?

        In the case of the Jinsha bones, there might be a possibility that they were stored for (unrealized) inscribing after divinationary. They are found in situ but in an archaeological context somehow too well organized.

        Xianhua


        2010-08-27




        Dr. Xianhua Wang
        Department of History
        Peking University
        Beijing 100871, China



        发件人: Peter T. Daniels
        发送时间: 2010-08-27 02:06:45
        收件人: ANE-2
        抄送:
        主题: Re: SV: SV: [ANE-2] SV: Reading revolutions


        Note also that a roll of uninscribed papyrus-paper was found in a very early
        Egyptian tomb. What purpose could it have served?

        Are you saying that the Jinsha people did the same sort of divination as the
        Xiaotun people, by interpreting the cracks in fired bones? It seems a reasonable
        step that once writing had proved useful to the accountants, the diviners could
        have realized that it could be useful in being sure the gods understood the
        question that was being asked -- and, of course, it served the ultimate
        bureaucratic purpose of keeping a record of the official decision.--
        Peter T. Daniels grammatim@...





        [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
      • carla sulzbach
        This may sound very lame, but if these items were found where inscribed bones would have been expected, perhaps they were simply stock to be used later for
        Message 3 of 10 , Aug 26, 2010
          This may sound very lame, but if these items were found where inscribed bones would have been expected, perhaps they were simply stock to be used later for writing? In the case of the papyrus, maybe it was a funerary gift for a scribe. So he would have something to write on in the afterlife?



          Carla Sulzbach

          McGill University



          To: ANE-2@yahoogroups.com
          From: e2waxi@...
          Date: Fri, 27 Aug 2010 02:14:15 +0800
          Subject: Re: Re: SV: SV: [ANE-2] SV: Reading revolutions






          Thanks for response. Yes, as far as my knowledge of the divinationary process allows, I am sure the Jinsha bones were used for the same purpose. The only difference is that they don't have inscriptions on them.

          Xianhua
          2010-08-27




          Dr. Xianhua Wang
          Department of History
          Peking University
          Beijing 100871, China



          发件人: Peter T. Daniels
          发送时间: 2010-08-27 02:06:45
          收件人: ANE-2
          抄送:
          主题: Re: SV: SV: [ANE-2] SV: Reading revolutions


          Note also that a roll of uninscribed papyrus-paper was found in a very early
          Egyptian tomb. What purpose could it have served?

          Are you saying that the Jinsha people did the same sort of divination as the
          Xiaotun people, by interpreting the cracks in fired bones? It seems a reasonable
          step that once writing had proved useful to the accountants, the diviners could
          have realized that it could be useful in being sure the gods understood the
          question that was being asked -- and, of course, it served the ultimate
          bureaucratic purpose of keeping a record of the official decision.--
          Peter T. Daniels grammatim@...




          [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]






          [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
        • Peter T. Daniels
          I haven t heard of any uses for papyrus other than as writing material. But if no inscribed bones were found in slightly later layers, it doesn t seem likely
          Message 4 of 10 , Aug 26, 2010
            I haven't heard of any uses for papyrus other than as writing material.

            But if no inscribed bones were found in slightly later layers, it doesn't seem
            likely that they were to be used for writing. Was this cache of bones fired, or
            were they just bones?--
            Peter T. Daniels grammatim@...




            ________________________________
            From: X.Wang <e2waxi@...>
            To: ANE-2 <ANE-2@yahoogroups.com>
            Sent: Thu, August 26, 2010 2:46:18 PM
            Subject: Re: Re: SV: SV: [ANE-2] SV: Reading revolutions

             
            Upon a second thought: Did the Egyptians use papyrus rolls for functionalities
            other than for writing?


            In the case of the Jinsha bones, there might be a possibility that they were
            stored for (unrealized) inscribing after divinationary. They are found in situ
            but in an archaeological context somehow too well organized.


            Xianhua


            2010-08-27




            Dr. Xianhua Wang
            Department of History
            Peking University
            Beijing 100871, China



            发件人: Peter T. Daniels
            发送时间: 2010-08-27 02:06:45
            收件人: ANE-2
            抄送:
            主题: Re: SV: SV: [ANE-2] SV: Reading revolutions


            Note also that a roll of uninscribed papyrus-paper was found in a very early
            Egyptian tomb. What purpose could it have served?

            Are you saying that the Jinsha people did the same sort of divination as the
            Xiaotun people, by interpreting the cracks in fired bones? It seems a reasonable

            step that once writing had proved useful to the accountants, the diviners could
            have realized that it could be useful in being sure the gods understood the
            question that was being asked -- and, of course, it served the ultimate
            bureaucratic purpose of keeping a record of the official decision.--
            Peter T. Daniels grammatim@...

            [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
          • Peter T. Daniels
            IIRC, as Cerny tells it in his pamphlet on Egyptian writing practices, the blank papyrus is from a preliterate period. And if no inscribed bones were found at
            Message 5 of 10 , Aug 26, 2010
              IIRC, as Cerny tells it in his pamphlet on Egyptian writing practices, the blank
              papyrus is from a preliterate period.

              And if no inscribed bones were found at that site, it seems unlikely that we
              have a cache of materials to be used for writing. --
              Peter T. Daniels grammatim@...




              ________________________________
              From: carla sulzbach <cjsulz@...>
              To: ane-2@yahoogroups.com
              Sent: Thu, August 26, 2010 3:28:25 PM
              Subject: RE: SV: SV: [ANE-2] SV: Reading revolutions

               

              This may sound very lame, but if these items were found where inscribed bones
              would have been expected, perhaps they were simply stock to be used later for
              writing? In the case of the papyrus, maybe it was a funerary gift for a scribe.
              So he would have something to write on in the afterlife?




              Carla Sulzbach

              McGill University



              To: ANE-2@yahoogroups.com
              From: e2waxi@...
              Date: Fri, 27 Aug 2010 02:14:15 +0800
              Subject: Re: Re: SV: SV: [ANE-2] SV: Reading revolutions






              Thanks for response. Yes, as far as my knowledge of the divinationary process
              allows, I am sure the Jinsha bones were used for the same purpose. The only
              difference is that they don't have inscriptions on them.


              Xianhua
              2010-08-27




              Dr. Xianhua Wang
              Department of History
              Peking University
              Beijing 100871, China



              发件人: Peter T. Daniels
              发送时间: 2010-08-27 02:06:45
              收件人: ANE-2
              抄送:
              主题: Re: SV: SV: [ANE-2] SV: Reading revolutions


              Note also that a roll of uninscribed papyrus-paper was found in a very early
              Egyptian tomb. What purpose could it have served?

              Are you saying that the Jinsha people did the same sort of divination as the
              Xiaotun people, by interpreting the cracks in fired bones? It seems a reasonable

              step that once writing had proved useful to the accountants, the diviners could
              have realized that it could be useful in being sure the gods understood the
              question that was being asked -- and, of course, it served the ultimate
              bureaucratic purpose of keeping a record of the official decision.--
              Peter T. Daniels grammatim@...

              [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
            • Antonio Lombatti
              Many years ago, I read that the Ashkelon silver calf was found in a sanctuary , but I ve been told that recent studies advanced the possibility that it was a
              Message 6 of 10 , Aug 27, 2010
                Many years ago, I read that the Ashkelon silver calf was found in a
                "sanctuary", but I've been told that recent studies advanced the
                possibility that it was a simple house and not a religious place
                (Stager, "The House of the Silver Calf of Ashkelon" in Timelines:
                Studies in Honour of Manfred Bietak Volume II, pp 403-410). I haven't
                read it yet.

                Can you confirm this?

                Thanks for your help.

                Antonio Lombatti


                ---------------------------------------
                http://www.antoniolombatti.it
                Dottore in Storia della Chiesa
                Deputazione di Storia Patria
                Parma, Italia




                [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
              • Raz Kletter
                Dear Antonio, (From memory-) the Ashkleon calf was found in what is normally called a model shrine , that is a *ceramic vessel*. It is quite similar to a jar,
                Message 7 of 10 , Aug 27, 2010
                  Dear Antonio,

                  (From memory-) the Ashkleon calf was found in what is normally called a
                  "model shrine", that is a *ceramic vessel*. It is quite similar to a jar,
                  but with features that indicate special function, like a large opening
                  ('door').

                  ON such vessels see recently Nissinen and M�nger, ��Down the River��: A
                  Shrine Model from Tel Kinrot in its Context.� In: *A Timeless Vale.
                  Archaeological and Related Essays on the Jordan Valley in Honour of Gerrit
                  van der Kooij on the Occasion of his Sixty-fifth Birthday* Edited by Eva
                  Kaptijn/Lucas P. Petit. Leiden: Leiden University Press, 2009:129-144. You
                  can download it from the kinnrot site:
                  http://www.kinneret-excavations.org/bibliography_selected.html

                  Best,
                  Raz Kletter, Helsinki/Tallinn


                  2010/8/27 Antonio Lombatti <antonio.lombatti@...>

                  >
                  >
                  > Many years ago, I read that the Ashkelon silver calf was found in a
                  > "sanctuary", but I've been told that recent studies advanced the
                  > possibility that it was a simple house and not a religious place
                  > (Stager, "The House of the Silver Calf of Ashkelon" in Timelines:
                  > Studies in Honour of Manfred Bietak Volume II, pp 403-410). I haven't
                  > read it yet.
                  >
                  > Can you confirm this?
                  >
                  > Thanks for your help.
                  >
                  > Antonio Lombatti
                  >
                  > ---------------------------------------
                  > http://www.antoniolombatti.it
                  > Dottore in Storia della Chiesa
                  > Deputazione di Storia Patria
                  > Parma, Italia
                  >
                  > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                  >
                  >
                  >


                  --
                  Raz Kletter
                  Varsaallika 6a Tallinn 12013 Estonia


                  [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                • Sam WOLFF
                  Raz and Robert did not address the original question, if the calf was found in a simple house or in a religious place . Yes, the calf was found in a miniature
                  Message 8 of 10 , Aug 28, 2010
                    Raz and Robert did not address the original question, if the calf was found
                    "in a simple house or in a religious place".

                    Yes, the calf was found in a miniature house shrine. Both were found "in the
                    room of a small mudbrick building situated on the slope of the [MB]
                    rampart." (L.E. Stager, The Canaanite Silver Calf, in Ashkelon 1 (2008):
                    577). No "simple houses" were situated in such a location.

                    For a description of the area and a plan see ibid, pp. 234-36 and, of
                    course, the article previously cited in the Bietak festschrift.

                    Sam Wolff
                    Jerusalem
                  • Antonio Lombatti
                    Thank you very much, Sam. This is precisely what I was looking for. Antonio Lombatti ... http://www.antoniolombatti.it Dottore in Storia della Chiesa
                    Message 9 of 10 , Aug 29, 2010
                      Thank you very much, Sam. This is precisely what I was looking for.

                      Antonio Lombatti



                      Il giorno 29/ago/10, alle ore 08:49, Sam WOLFF ha scritto:

                      > Yes, the calf was found in a miniature house shrine. Both were found
                      > "in the
                      > room of a small mudbrick building situated on the slope of the [MB]
                      > rampart." (L.E. Stager, The Canaanite Silver Calf, in Ashkelon 1
                      > (2008):
                      > 577). No "simple houses" were situated in such a location.



                      --------------------------------------
                      http://www.antoniolombatti.it
                      Dottore in Storia della Chiesa
                      Deputazione di Storia Patria
                      Parma, Italia
                    • Antonio Lombatti
                      Dear Listers, I m looking for some pages of a book which I wasn t able to find in any Italian university/public library: J.B. Humbert, A. Chambon Fouilles de
                      Message 10 of 10 , Sep 6, 2010
                        Dear Listers,

                        I'm looking for some pages of a book which I wasn't able to find in
                        any Italian university/public library:


                        J.B. Humbert, A. Chambon

                        Fouilles de Khirbet Qumrân et de Aïn Feshkha

                        Freibourg, 1994
                        pp. 346-350
                        figs. 458 and 466

                        And a Table taken from this article:

                        H. Eshel et al.
                        "New data on the Cemetery East of Khirbet of Qumran"
                        in: Dead Sea Discoveries 9, 2002: 135-165
                        (only Table IV)

                        If you have any of these pages, please be so kind to contact me off
                        list.

                        Thanks.

                        Antonio Lombatti

                        ----------------------------------
                        http://www.antoniolombatti.it
                        Dottore in Storia della Chiesa
                        Deputazione di Storia Patria
                        Parma, Italia







                        [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
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