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AW: [ANE-2] SV: deportation and repatriation

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  • Michael Banyai
    The 70 years of exile, Thomas is speaking about, appear also in the prophecy of Isaiah 23:15 and 17 about Tyre. This seems to be an important Mesopotamian
    Message 1 of 21 , Aug 16, 2010
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      The 70 years of exile, Thomas is speaking about, appear also in the prophecy
      of Isaiah 23:15 and 17 about Tyre. This seems to be an important
      Mesopotamian topos, first appearing in biblical works following contacts
      with Assyria. It may have been a current curse in standard contracts with
      Assyria by that time, thus being the real consequence of breaking a contract
      closed with Assyria.



      Thus is the later prophecy of Jeremiah 29:10, 25:11-12 concerning the 70
      year of banishment nothing else than rendering the exact provisions of the
      contract between Judah and Babylon, one of its copies being deposed in the
      temple of Jerusalem. Of course would the punishment come from Yahweh, since
      he is the one to implement the curses of the contract on Judean side. The
      attempts to hinder the accession of Jeremiah to the temple are to be seen in
      this context. Yahweh, as the one to punish Judah for breaking the contract,
      would return his grace to his people after punishing it, as according to the
      contract.



      My father taught me to read attentively each time the lowercased text in a
      contract, for eventually hidden provisions.



      Regards,



      Michael Bányai

      Oberursel



      Von: ANE-2@yahoogroups.com [mailto:ANE-2@yahoogroups.com] Im Auftrag von
      Thomas L. Thompson
      Gesendet: Montag, 16. August 2010 15:05
      An: ANE-2@yahoogroups.com
      Betreff: [ANE-2] SV: deportation and repatriation





      Although the motifs are variant, one might also think of Esarhaddon's
      "biography" in which Babylon is punished by the gods with a (the?) flood and
      the people exiled. After a serendipitous 11 years (reversing a divinely
      cursed exile of 70 years with the help of cuneiform's wonderful
      orthography), Esarhaddon is called by the gods to reunite people, gods and
      king.
      Thomas

      Thomas L Thompson
      Professor emeritus, University of Copenhagen

      ________________________________________
      Fra: ANE-2@yahoogroups.com <mailto:ANE-2%40yahoogroups.com>
      [ANE-2@yahoogroups.com <mailto:ANE-2%40yahoogroups.com> ] På vegne af
      Thomas L. Thompson [tlt@... <mailto:tlt%40teol.ku.dk> ]
      Sendt: 16. august 2010 14:42
      Til: ANE-2@yahoogroups.com <mailto:ANE-2%40yahoogroups.com>
      Emne: [ANE-2] SV: deportation and repatriation

      Yes, Assurbanipal II in one "deportation" text (ANET?) refers to bringing
      the people of a town in Lebanon back to their homes and I believe there are
      a few comparable texts.
      Thomas

      Because of a discussion -- a seminar -- on the Biblical Studies list:

      Do we have other examples from the ANE of repatriation of deported people,
      apart from the one in the Old Testament? (this is not a discussion about the
      historicity of that event--if that had been the case, I would not have
      brought it up here).

      I know of repatriation of abducted gods from Babylonian tradition, but of
      human beings?

      Niels Peter Lemche

      ------------------------------------

      Yahoo! Groups Links

      http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/





      [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
    • Niels Peter Lemche
      and you find evidence of such a return in the archaeological material from the Jerusalem area? Sorry, I have absolutely no confidence in Ezra/Nehemiah as a
      Message 2 of 21 , Aug 16, 2010
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        and you find evidence of such a return in the archaeological material from the Jerusalem area?

        Sorry, I have absolutely no confidence in Ezra/Nehemiah as a historical source.

        Niels Peter Lemche



        -----Oprindelig meddelelse-----
        Fra: ANE-2@yahoogroups.com [mailto:ANE-2@yahoogroups.com] På vegne af Lisbeth S. Fried
        Sendt: den 16 augusti 2010 18:59
        Til: ANE-2@yahoogroups.com
        Emne: RE: [ANE-2] deportation and repatriation

        Dear Niels-Peter,

        This is from my commentary on Ezra-Nehemiah (forthcoming).



        The Jews were not the only community to return from Babylon to
        their ancestral homeland under the Achaemenids. The 1926-27 excavations at
        Neirab, Syria, unearthed an archive of clay tablets dating from the reign of
        Nebuchadnezzar to the early years of Darius I (i.e., from 560 to 520 BCE)
        which recorded loans of barley and silver. The documents all refer to a
        people named the Neirabians, i.e., the people who lived in the city where
        the archive was found. Yet the places where the transactions occurred were
        in the vicinity of Nippur in Babylon. This was evidently the archive of a
        community of Syrians which had been exiled to Nippur under Nebuchadnezzar
        and which had been released to their own city in the beginning of Darius'
        reign (Eph'al 1978). As with the Jews, they had maintained a community
        identity in exile in Babylon for four decades, returning to their own city
        as soon as they were able.





        Lisbeth S. Fried, Ph.D.

        Department of Near Eastern Studies

        and the Frankel Center for Judaic Studies

        University of Michigan

        202 S. Thayer -- Room 4111

        Ann Arbor, MI 48104

        www.lizfried.com <http://www.lizfried.com/>





        _____

        From: ANE-2@yahoogroups.com [mailto:ANE-2@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of
        Niels Peter Lemche
        Sent: Monday, August 16, 2010 8:36 AM
        To: ANE-2@yahoogroups.com
        Subject: [ANE-2] deportation and repatriation





        Because of a discussion -- a seminar -- on the Biblical Studies list:

        Do we have other examples from the ANE of repatriation of deported people,
        apart from the one in the Old Testament? (this is not a discussion about the
        historicity of that event--if that had been the case, I would not have
        brought it up here).

        I know of repatriation of abducted gods from Babylonian tradition, but of
        human beings?

        Niels Peter Lemche





        [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]



        ------------------------------------

        Yahoo! Groups Links
      • Lisbeth S. Fried
        Well, forget the last line of that paragraph then. I do think that an exile and return can be found in the archaeology of Judah and Jerusalem (Faust has a book
        Message 3 of 21 , Aug 16, 2010
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          Well, forget the last line of that paragraph then.

          I do think that an exile and return can be found in the archaeology of Judah
          and Jerusalem (Faust has a book on the 6th century, forthcoming, which he
          has permitted me to read), but I was responding to your query about other
          returns.



          Liz Fried





          _____

          From: ANE-2@yahoogroups.com [mailto:ANE-2@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of
          Niels Peter Lemche
          Sent: Monday, August 16, 2010 1:31 PM
          To: ANE-2@yahoogroups.com
          Subject: SV: [ANE-2] deportation and repatriation





          and you find evidence of such a return in the archaeological material from
          the Jerusalem area?

          Sorry, I have absolutely no confidence in Ezra/Nehemiah as a historical
          source.

          Niels Peter Lemche



          -----Oprindelig meddelelse-----
          Fra: ANE-2@yahoogroups.com <mailto:ANE-2%40yahoogroups.com>
          [mailto:ANE-2@yahoogroups.com <mailto:ANE-2%40yahoogroups.com> ] På vegne af
          Lisbeth S. Fried
          Sendt: den 16 augusti 2010 18:59
          Til: ANE-2@yahoogroups.com <mailto:ANE-2%40yahoogroups.com>
          Emne: RE: [ANE-2] deportation and repatriation

          Dear Niels-Peter,

          This is from my commentary on Ezra-Nehemiah (forthcoming).



          The Jews were not the only community to return from Babylon to
          their ancestral homeland under the Achaemenids. The 1926-27 excavations at
          Neirab, Syria, unearthed an archive of clay tablets dating from the reign of
          Nebuchadnezzar to the early years of Darius I (i.e., from 560 to 520 BCE)
          which recorded loans of barley and silver. The documents all refer to a
          people named the Neirabians, i.e., the people who lived in the city where
          the archive was found. Yet the places where the transactions occurred were
          in the vicinity of Nippur in Babylon. This was evidently the archive of a
          community of Syrians which had been exiled to Nippur under Nebuchadnezzar
          and which had been released to their own city in the beginning of Darius'
          reign (Eph'al 1978). As with the Jews, they had maintained a community
          identity in exile in Babylon for four decades, returning to their own city
          as soon as they were able.





          Lisbeth S. Fried, Ph.D.

          Department of Near Eastern Studies

          and the Frankel Center for Judaic Studies

          University of Michigan

          202 S. Thayer -- Room 4111

          Ann Arbor, MI 48104

          www.lizfried.com <http://www.lizfried.com/>





          _____

          From: ANE-2@yahoogroups.com <mailto:ANE-2%40yahoogroups.com>
          [mailto:ANE-2@yahoogroups.com <mailto:ANE-2%40yahoogroups.com> ] On Behalf
          Of
          Niels Peter Lemche
          Sent: Monday, August 16, 2010 8:36 AM
          To: ANE-2@yahoogroups.com <mailto:ANE-2%40yahoogroups.com>
          Subject: [ANE-2] deportation and repatriation





          Because of a discussion -- a seminar -- on the Biblical Studies list:

          Do we have other examples from the ANE of repatriation of deported people,
          apart from the one in the Old Testament? (this is not a discussion about the
          historicity of that event--if that had been the case, I would not have
          brought it up here).

          I know of repatriation of abducted gods from Babylonian tradition, but of
          human beings?

          Niels Peter Lemche





          [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]



          ------------------------------------

          Yahoo! Groups Links








          [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
        • Niels Peter Lemche
          Dear Liz, may I suggest that we take this discussion to the biblical studies list where we have as eminar based on Ahn s forthcoming book on the exile. It is
          Message 4 of 21 , Aug 16, 2010
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            Dear Liz,

            may I suggest that we take this discussion to the biblical studies list where we have as eminar based on Ahn's forthcoming book on the exile. It is hardly a matter that suits this forum. I only asked for parallels. And sorry to all for my earlier mail. I forgot to check that it did not go to biblical studies.

            Niels Peter Lemche



            -----Oprindelig meddelelse-----
            Fra: ANE-2@yahoogroups.com [mailto:ANE-2@yahoogroups.com] På vegne af Niels Peter Lemche
            Sendt: den 16 augusti 2010 19:31
            Til: ANE-2@yahoogroups.com
            Emne: SV: [ANE-2] deportation and repatriation

            and you find evidence of such a return in the archaeological material from the Jerusalem area?

            Sorry, I have absolutely no confidence in Ezra/Nehemiah as a historical source.

            Niels Peter Lemche



            -----Oprindelig meddelelse-----
            Fra: ANE-2@yahoogroups.com [mailto:ANE-2@yahoogroups.com] På vegne af Lisbeth S. Fried
            Sendt: den 16 augusti 2010 18:59
            Til: ANE-2@yahoogroups.com
            Emne: RE: [ANE-2] deportation and repatriation

            Dear Niels-Peter,

            This is from my commentary on Ezra-Nehemiah (forthcoming).



            The Jews were not the only community to return from Babylon to
            their ancestral homeland under the Achaemenids. The 1926-27 excavations at
            Neirab, Syria, unearthed an archive of clay tablets dating from the reign of
            Nebuchadnezzar to the early years of Darius I (i.e., from 560 to 520 BCE)
            which recorded loans of barley and silver. The documents all refer to a
            people named the Neirabians, i.e., the people who lived in the city where
            the archive was found. Yet the places where the transactions occurred were
            in the vicinity of Nippur in Babylon. This was evidently the archive of a
            community of Syrians which had been exiled to Nippur under Nebuchadnezzar
            and which had been released to their own city in the beginning of Darius'
            reign (Eph'al 1978). As with the Jews, they had maintained a community
            identity in exile in Babylon for four decades, returning to their own city
            as soon as they were able.





            Lisbeth S. Fried, Ph.D.

            Department of Near Eastern Studies

            and the Frankel Center for Judaic Studies

            University of Michigan

            202 S. Thayer -- Room 4111

            Ann Arbor, MI 48104

            www.lizfried.com <http://www.lizfried.com/>





            _____

            From: ANE-2@yahoogroups.com [mailto:ANE-2@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of
            Niels Peter Lemche
            Sent: Monday, August 16, 2010 8:36 AM
            To: ANE-2@yahoogroups.com
            Subject: [ANE-2] deportation and repatriation





            Because of a discussion -- a seminar -- on the Biblical Studies list:

            Do we have other examples from the ANE of repatriation of deported people,
            apart from the one in the Old Testament? (this is not a discussion about the
            historicity of that event--if that had been the case, I would not have
            brought it up here).

            I know of repatriation of abducted gods from Babylonian tradition, but of
            human beings?

            Niels Peter Lemche





            [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]



            ------------------------------------

            Yahoo! Groups Links





            ------------------------------------

            Yahoo! Groups Links
          • Niels Peter Lemche
            As I said to Liz, Take this discussion to where it belongs: Biblical Studies. Discussions about biblical historicity are normally not welcome on this list. And
            Message 5 of 21 , Aug 16, 2010
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              As I said to Liz,

              Take this discussion to where it belongs: Biblical Studies. Discussions about biblical historicity are normally not welcome on this list. And you are already involved in the discussion on biblical studies.

              Niels Peter Lemche

              -----Oprindelig meddelelse-----
              Fra: ANE-2@yahoogroups.com [mailto:ANE-2@yahoogroups.com] På vegne af Michael Banyai
              Sendt: den 16 augusti 2010 18:29
              Til: ANE-2@yahoogroups.com
              Emne: AW: [ANE-2] SV: deportation and repatriation

              The 70 years of exile, Thomas is speaking about, appear also in the prophecy
              of Isaiah 23:15 and 17 about Tyre. This seems to be an important
              Mesopotamian topos, first appearing in biblical works following contacts
              with Assyria. It may have been a current curse in standard contracts with
              Assyria by that time, thus being the real consequence of breaking a contract
              closed with Assyria.



              Thus is the later prophecy of Jeremiah 29:10, 25:11-12 concerning the 70
              year of banishment nothing else than rendering the exact provisions of the
              contract between Judah and Babylon, one of its copies being deposed in the
              temple of Jerusalem. Of course would the punishment come from Yahweh, since
              he is the one to implement the curses of the contract on Judean side. The
              attempts to hinder the accession of Jeremiah to the temple are to be seen in
              this context. Yahweh, as the one to punish Judah for breaking the contract,
              would return his grace to his people after punishing it, as according to the
              contract.



              My father taught me to read attentively each time the lowercased text in a
              contract, for eventually hidden provisions.



              Regards,



              Michael Bányai

              Oberursel



              Von: ANE-2@yahoogroups.com [mailto:ANE-2@yahoogroups.com] Im Auftrag von
              Thomas L. Thompson
              Gesendet: Montag, 16. August 2010 15:05
              An: ANE-2@yahoogroups.com
              Betreff: [ANE-2] SV: deportation and repatriation





              Although the motifs are variant, one might also think of Esarhaddon's
              "biography" in which Babylon is punished by the gods with a (the?) flood and
              the people exiled. After a serendipitous 11 years (reversing a divinely
              cursed exile of 70 years with the help of cuneiform's wonderful
              orthography), Esarhaddon is called by the gods to reunite people, gods and
              king.
              Thomas

              Thomas L Thompson
              Professor emeritus, University of Copenhagen

              ________________________________________
              Fra: ANE-2@yahoogroups.com <mailto:ANE-2%40yahoogroups.com>
              [ANE-2@yahoogroups.com <mailto:ANE-2%40yahoogroups.com> ] På vegne af
              Thomas L. Thompson [tlt@... <mailto:tlt%40teol.ku.dk> ]
              Sendt: 16. august 2010 14:42
              Til: ANE-2@yahoogroups.com <mailto:ANE-2%40yahoogroups.com>
              Emne: [ANE-2] SV: deportation and repatriation

              Yes, Assurbanipal II in one "deportation" text (ANET?) refers to bringing
              the people of a town in Lebanon back to their homes and I believe there are
              a few comparable texts.
              Thomas

              Because of a discussion -- a seminar -- on the Biblical Studies list:

              Do we have other examples from the ANE of repatriation of deported people,
              apart from the one in the Old Testament? (this is not a discussion about the
              historicity of that event--if that had been the case, I would not have
              brought it up here).

              I know of repatriation of abducted gods from Babylonian tradition, but of
              human beings?

              Niels Peter Lemche

              ------------------------------------

              Yahoo! Groups Links

              http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/





              [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]



              ------------------------------------

              Yahoo! Groups Links
            • Francesco Brighenti
              ... Cf. also the case of the Persian Empire. Foreign workers, called _kurtash_, who were sometimes slaves, sometimes free people working for wages, and
              Message 6 of 21 , Aug 17, 2010
              • 0 Attachment
                --- In ANE-2@yahoogroups.com, "Michael Banyai" <michael.banyai@...> wrote:

                > The 70 years of exile, Thomas is speaking about, appear also in
                > the prophecy of Isaiah 23:15 and 17 about Tyre. This seems to be
                > an important Mesopotamian topos, first appearing in biblical works
                > following contacts with Assyria. It may have been a current curse
                > in standard contracts with Assyria by that time, thus being the
                > real consequence of breaking a contract closed with Assyria.

                Cf. also the case of the Persian Empire.

                Foreign workers, called _kurtash_, who were sometimes slaves,
                sometimes free people working for wages, and sometimes indentured
                servants, were resettled by the Persians in different satrapies of
                their empire. Other groups of foreig workers were settled in Babylonia by the Persians under the _hatru_ system, by virtue of which a community was allotted an area that it cultivated in family plots on condition of military service and payment of an annual tax.

                Apart from the _kurtash_ and _hatru_ systems, the Achaemenids apparently resorted to deportation of entire foreign communities when these broke some kind of 'contract' made with them. This is evinced by the deportation of some (presumably numerically large) Greek communities to Bactria and Sogdiana -- which H.G. Rawlinson has termed as the "Siberia" of the Achaemenian Empire! -- inferred on the basis of the following sources:

                * Herodotus (4.204) writes that the inhabitants of the city of Barca
                in Cyrenaica were deported by Darius I to a village in Bactria that
                was also named Barca.

                * Herodotus (6.9) also mentions a threat made by the Persian
                commanders to the inhabitants of Miletus at the culmination of the
                Ionian Revolt before the battle of Lade (494 B.C.) that their
                maidens would be deported to Bactria. This can be taken as a mere
                suggestion that the Persians used to threaten their Greek enemies to
                deport the population of their cities to the far eastern portions of
                their empire, and we aren't told they really did this to the
                Milesians; yet, this passage by Herodotus has its importance
                inasmuch as it was written a few decades after the Persian Wars.

                * Curtius (7.5.28-35) and Strabo (11.11.4) describe the episode of
                Alexander's encounter with, and subsequent destruction of, the
                alleged descendants of the Branchidae, a clan of Ionian priestly
                functionaries attached to the sanctuary of Apollo at Didyma near
                Miletus and relocated by the Persians in a settlement
                between Bactria and Sogdiana (some scholars think it was half-way
                between present-day Balkh and Samarkand). Curtius and Strabo's
                common, earlier source is Callisthenes, Alexander's historian. W.W.
                Tarn and other historians have dismissed this episode as an invention of Callisthenes', but it is possible that the Branchidae no less than the Barcaeans were deported by the Persians to Bactria-Sogdiana.

                * There is another possible example of a historical deportation of
                Greeks to Bactria by the Achaemenids: that of the inhabitants of the
                city of Kariatas (mentioned in Strabo 11.11.4 as the place where
                Callisthenes was arrested; Latin Cariatae), who like the Branchidae
                were massacred by Alexander. According to F.L. Holt (_Alexander the
                Great and Bactria: The Formation of a Greek Frontier in Central
                Asia_, Brill Archive, 1988, p. 73, n. 94), they may have been the
                descendants of Greeks from Caria in Asia Minor.

                In sum, only the deportation of the Barcaeans to Bactria seems to be
                warranted by near-contemporary souces (Herodotus), yet there are
                indications (Curtius, Strabo) that other Greek communities were
                deported by the Persian to Bactria or Sogdiana. Other such
                deportations could have simply escaped the notice of ancient
                historians.

                Kindest regards,

                Francesco Brighenti
                Venice, Italy
              • Francesco Brighenti
                ... OK, this apparently settles the question. I didn t know Egypt is never mentioned in the Mari letters. So, judging from what you write, Meluhha, that is,
                Message 7 of 21 , Aug 17, 2010
                • 0 Attachment
                  --- In ANE-2@yahoogroups.com, "Michael" <michael.banyai@...> wrote:

                  > Dear Francesco,
                  >
                  > Your question can be easily answered. Do we have in the
                  > Mari texts any mentions of Egypt? No.
                  >
                  > Then, since any imaginable route connecting Mari trade to
                  > an African Meluhha, would have necessarily passed by Egypt,
                  > we can have here no mention of an African Meluhha.

                  OK, this apparently settles the question. I didn't know Egypt is never
                  mentioned in the Mari letters.

                  So, judging from what you write, Meluhha, that is, the coastal areas of the by then defunct Indus Civilization, was somewhat 'remembered' in the Mari letters, i.e. in the time of Hammurabi, some centuries after the end of that South Asian civilization.

                  In this case, the shift in the location of Meluhha to eastern Africa (as seen, for instance, in the Amarna letters) must have occurred toward or after the end of the Old Babylonian period.

                  Again thanks! And best regards.

                  Francesco Brighenti
                  Venice, Italy
                • Rafal Kolinski
                  Dear Francesco,   if you read French, try:   B. Groeneberg, La golfe arabo-persique, vu de MAri, Florilegium MArianum I, 1992, 69-80.   I am sorry for a
                  Message 8 of 21 , Aug 31, 2012
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                    Dear Francesco,
                     
                    if you read French, try:
                     
                    B. Groeneberg, La golfe arabo-persique, vu de MAri, Florilegium MArianum I, 1992, 69-80.
                     
                    I am sorry for a late answer but only now I was ble to sort through archivail e-mails
                     
                    best regards
                     
                    Rafal Kolinski
                    Institute of Prehistory
                    Adam Mickiewicz University
                    Poznan, Poland


                    ________________________________
                    From: Francesco Brighenti <frabrig@...>
                    To: ANE-2@yahoogroups.com
                    Sent: Wednesday, 28 July 2010, 22:29
                    Subject: [ANE-2] Mari Letters


                     


                    Dear members of the List,

                    In this paper:

                    Nicole Boivin & Dorian Q. Fuller, "Shell Middens, Ships and Seeds: Exploring Coastal Subsistence, Maritime Trade and the Dispersal of Domesticates in and Around the Ancient Arabian Peninsula," _Journal of World Prehistory_ 22 (2009), pp. 113-180,

                    I read (on p. 155):

                    "Evidence for Harappan trade [with the Persian Gulf and Mesopotamia -- Francesco] continues into the Late Harappan period, as evidenced by both archaeological finds and textual sources like the Mari letters (Carter 2001; Warburton 2007). [...] [T]rade was by this point clearly with the Late Harappan communities of Gujarat, rather than the now disintegrated society of the Indus Valley proper."

                    The two sources cited by the authors in this passage are:

                    Carter, R. (2006). Boat remains and maritime trade in the Persian Gulf during the sixth and fifth millennia BC. Antiquity, 80, 52-63.

                    Warburton, D. A. (2007). What happened in the Near East ca. 2000 BC? In E. H. Seland (Ed.), The Indian Ocean in the Ancient Period: Definite places, translocal exchange. Oxford: BAR International Series 1593.

                    Can anyone here provide any references to the above mentioned textual evidence for Indo-Mesopotamian trade relations (allegedly) contained in the Mari Letters (c. 1800 BCE)?

                    Thanks in advance, and best regards.

                    Francesco Brighenti, Ph.D.
                    VAIS -- Venetian Academy of Indian Studies
                    Venice, Italy




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