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AW: [ANE-2] deportation and repatriation

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  • Michael Banyai
    Dear Niels Peter, I think we have first to define the nature of the deportation and repatriation according to the Olt Testament etc. While the deportation
    Message 1 of 21 , Aug 16, 2010
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      Dear Niels Peter,



      I think we have first to define the nature of the deportation and repatriation according to the Olt Testament etc. While the deportation might have been a rather large scale event, the repatriation concerned just the Israelite elites and their households. It is not a one to one reversion of the deportation.



      Once we have accepted this formula, than we can compare it for example with the story of Idrimi, returning from exile with people of his land he managed to rally around himself in Ammija with the support of the habiru-people to Aleppo. Maybe no wonder the mention of a Halap of the Habiru.



      Regards,



      Michael Banyai

      Oberursel



      Von: ANE-2@yahoogroups.com [mailto:ANE-2@yahoogroups.com] Im Auftrag von Niels Peter Lemche
      Gesendet: Montag, 16. August 2010 14:36
      An: ANE-2@yahoogroups.com
      Betreff: [ANE-2] deportation and repatriation





      Because of a discussion -- a seminar -- on the Biblical Studies list:

      Do we have other examples from the ANE of repatriation of deported people, apart from the one in the Old Testament? (this is not a discussion about the historicity of that event--if that had been the case, I would not have brought it up here).

      I know of repatriation of abducted gods from Babylonian tradition, but of human beings?

      Niels Peter Lemche





      [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
    • victor avigdor hurowitz
      How about the Cyrus Cylinder? In addition to repatriating the abducted gods to their sanctuary Cyrus says (following Michalowski s translation in Chavalas The
      Message 2 of 21 , Aug 16, 2010
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        How about the Cyrus Cylinder? In addition to repatriating the abducted
        gods to
        their sanctuary Cyrus says (following Michalowski's translation in
        Chavalas The Ancient Near East) "I returned to these sanctuaries...the
        images that had been in them...I also gathered all their people and
        returned to them their habitations" The Akkadian on that last bit is
        (following H.P. Shaudig)kullat ni$e$unu upahhiramma uter dadmi$un (line
        32).
        Best
        Victor Hurowitz
        BGU



        On Mon, 16 Aug 2010, Niels Peter Lemche wrote:

        > �
        >
        > Because of a discussion -- a seminar -- on the Biblical Studies list:
        >
        > Do we have other examples from the ANE of repatriation of deported people,
        > apart from the one in the Old Testament? (this is not a discussion about the
        > historicity of that event--if that had been the case, I would not have
        > brought it up here).
        >
        > I know of repatriation of abducted gods from Babylonian tradition, but of
        > human beings?
        >
        > Niels Peter Lemche
        >
        >
        >
        >

        [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
      • Michael Banyai
        The 70 years of exile, Thomas is speaking about, appear also in the prophecy of Isaiah 23:15 and 17 about Tyre. This seems to be an important Mesopotamian
        Message 3 of 21 , Aug 16, 2010
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          The 70 years of exile, Thomas is speaking about, appear also in the prophecy
          of Isaiah 23:15 and 17 about Tyre. This seems to be an important
          Mesopotamian topos, first appearing in biblical works following contacts
          with Assyria. It may have been a current curse in standard contracts with
          Assyria by that time, thus being the real consequence of breaking a contract
          closed with Assyria.



          Thus is the later prophecy of Jeremiah 29:10, 25:11-12 concerning the 70
          year of banishment nothing else than rendering the exact provisions of the
          contract between Judah and Babylon, one of its copies being deposed in the
          temple of Jerusalem. Of course would the punishment come from Yahweh, since
          he is the one to implement the curses of the contract on Judean side. The
          attempts to hinder the accession of Jeremiah to the temple are to be seen in
          this context. Yahweh, as the one to punish Judah for breaking the contract,
          would return his grace to his people after punishing it, as according to the
          contract.



          My father taught me to read attentively each time the lowercased text in a
          contract, for eventually hidden provisions.



          Regards,



          Michael Bányai

          Oberursel



          Von: ANE-2@yahoogroups.com [mailto:ANE-2@yahoogroups.com] Im Auftrag von
          Thomas L. Thompson
          Gesendet: Montag, 16. August 2010 15:05
          An: ANE-2@yahoogroups.com
          Betreff: [ANE-2] SV: deportation and repatriation





          Although the motifs are variant, one might also think of Esarhaddon's
          "biography" in which Babylon is punished by the gods with a (the?) flood and
          the people exiled. After a serendipitous 11 years (reversing a divinely
          cursed exile of 70 years with the help of cuneiform's wonderful
          orthography), Esarhaddon is called by the gods to reunite people, gods and
          king.
          Thomas

          Thomas L Thompson
          Professor emeritus, University of Copenhagen

          ________________________________________
          Fra: ANE-2@yahoogroups.com <mailto:ANE-2%40yahoogroups.com>
          [ANE-2@yahoogroups.com <mailto:ANE-2%40yahoogroups.com> ] På vegne af
          Thomas L. Thompson [tlt@... <mailto:tlt%40teol.ku.dk> ]
          Sendt: 16. august 2010 14:42
          Til: ANE-2@yahoogroups.com <mailto:ANE-2%40yahoogroups.com>
          Emne: [ANE-2] SV: deportation and repatriation

          Yes, Assurbanipal II in one "deportation" text (ANET?) refers to bringing
          the people of a town in Lebanon back to their homes and I believe there are
          a few comparable texts.
          Thomas

          Because of a discussion -- a seminar -- on the Biblical Studies list:

          Do we have other examples from the ANE of repatriation of deported people,
          apart from the one in the Old Testament? (this is not a discussion about the
          historicity of that event--if that had been the case, I would not have
          brought it up here).

          I know of repatriation of abducted gods from Babylonian tradition, but of
          human beings?

          Niels Peter Lemche

          ------------------------------------

          Yahoo! Groups Links

          http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/





          [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
        • Lisbeth S. Fried
          Dear Niels-Peter, This is from my commentary on Ezra-Nehemiah (forthcoming). The Jews were not the only community to return from Babylon to their ancestral
          Message 4 of 21 , Aug 16, 2010
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            Dear Niels-Peter,

            This is from my commentary on Ezra-Nehemiah (forthcoming).



            The Jews were not the only community to return from Babylon to
            their ancestral homeland under the Achaemenids. The 1926-27 excavations at
            Neirab, Syria, unearthed an archive of clay tablets dating from the reign of
            Nebuchadnezzar to the early years of Darius I (i.e., from 560 to 520 BCE)
            which recorded loans of barley and silver. The documents all refer to a
            people named the Neirabians, i.e., the people who lived in the city where
            the archive was found. Yet the places where the transactions occurred were
            in the vicinity of Nippur in Babylon. This was evidently the archive of a
            community of Syrians which had been exiled to Nippur under Nebuchadnezzar
            and which had been released to their own city in the beginning of Darius'
            reign (Eph'al 1978). As with the Jews, they had maintained a community
            identity in exile in Babylon for four decades, returning to their own city
            as soon as they were able.





            Lisbeth S. Fried, Ph.D.

            Department of Near Eastern Studies

            and the Frankel Center for Judaic Studies

            University of Michigan

            202 S. Thayer -- Room 4111

            Ann Arbor, MI 48104

            www.lizfried.com <http://www.lizfried.com/>





            _____

            From: ANE-2@yahoogroups.com [mailto:ANE-2@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of
            Niels Peter Lemche
            Sent: Monday, August 16, 2010 8:36 AM
            To: ANE-2@yahoogroups.com
            Subject: [ANE-2] deportation and repatriation





            Because of a discussion -- a seminar -- on the Biblical Studies list:

            Do we have other examples from the ANE of repatriation of deported people,
            apart from the one in the Old Testament? (this is not a discussion about the
            historicity of that event--if that had been the case, I would not have
            brought it up here).

            I know of repatriation of abducted gods from Babylonian tradition, but of
            human beings?

            Niels Peter Lemche





            [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
          • Niels Peter Lemche
            and you find evidence of such a return in the archaeological material from the Jerusalem area? Sorry, I have absolutely no confidence in Ezra/Nehemiah as a
            Message 5 of 21 , Aug 16, 2010
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              and you find evidence of such a return in the archaeological material from the Jerusalem area?

              Sorry, I have absolutely no confidence in Ezra/Nehemiah as a historical source.

              Niels Peter Lemche



              -----Oprindelig meddelelse-----
              Fra: ANE-2@yahoogroups.com [mailto:ANE-2@yahoogroups.com] På vegne af Lisbeth S. Fried
              Sendt: den 16 augusti 2010 18:59
              Til: ANE-2@yahoogroups.com
              Emne: RE: [ANE-2] deportation and repatriation

              Dear Niels-Peter,

              This is from my commentary on Ezra-Nehemiah (forthcoming).



              The Jews were not the only community to return from Babylon to
              their ancestral homeland under the Achaemenids. The 1926-27 excavations at
              Neirab, Syria, unearthed an archive of clay tablets dating from the reign of
              Nebuchadnezzar to the early years of Darius I (i.e., from 560 to 520 BCE)
              which recorded loans of barley and silver. The documents all refer to a
              people named the Neirabians, i.e., the people who lived in the city where
              the archive was found. Yet the places where the transactions occurred were
              in the vicinity of Nippur in Babylon. This was evidently the archive of a
              community of Syrians which had been exiled to Nippur under Nebuchadnezzar
              and which had been released to their own city in the beginning of Darius'
              reign (Eph'al 1978). As with the Jews, they had maintained a community
              identity in exile in Babylon for four decades, returning to their own city
              as soon as they were able.





              Lisbeth S. Fried, Ph.D.

              Department of Near Eastern Studies

              and the Frankel Center for Judaic Studies

              University of Michigan

              202 S. Thayer -- Room 4111

              Ann Arbor, MI 48104

              www.lizfried.com <http://www.lizfried.com/>





              _____

              From: ANE-2@yahoogroups.com [mailto:ANE-2@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of
              Niels Peter Lemche
              Sent: Monday, August 16, 2010 8:36 AM
              To: ANE-2@yahoogroups.com
              Subject: [ANE-2] deportation and repatriation





              Because of a discussion -- a seminar -- on the Biblical Studies list:

              Do we have other examples from the ANE of repatriation of deported people,
              apart from the one in the Old Testament? (this is not a discussion about the
              historicity of that event--if that had been the case, I would not have
              brought it up here).

              I know of repatriation of abducted gods from Babylonian tradition, but of
              human beings?

              Niels Peter Lemche





              [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]



              ------------------------------------

              Yahoo! Groups Links
            • Lisbeth S. Fried
              Well, forget the last line of that paragraph then. I do think that an exile and return can be found in the archaeology of Judah and Jerusalem (Faust has a book
              Message 6 of 21 , Aug 16, 2010
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                Well, forget the last line of that paragraph then.

                I do think that an exile and return can be found in the archaeology of Judah
                and Jerusalem (Faust has a book on the 6th century, forthcoming, which he
                has permitted me to read), but I was responding to your query about other
                returns.



                Liz Fried





                _____

                From: ANE-2@yahoogroups.com [mailto:ANE-2@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of
                Niels Peter Lemche
                Sent: Monday, August 16, 2010 1:31 PM
                To: ANE-2@yahoogroups.com
                Subject: SV: [ANE-2] deportation and repatriation





                and you find evidence of such a return in the archaeological material from
                the Jerusalem area?

                Sorry, I have absolutely no confidence in Ezra/Nehemiah as a historical
                source.

                Niels Peter Lemche



                -----Oprindelig meddelelse-----
                Fra: ANE-2@yahoogroups.com <mailto:ANE-2%40yahoogroups.com>
                [mailto:ANE-2@yahoogroups.com <mailto:ANE-2%40yahoogroups.com> ] På vegne af
                Lisbeth S. Fried
                Sendt: den 16 augusti 2010 18:59
                Til: ANE-2@yahoogroups.com <mailto:ANE-2%40yahoogroups.com>
                Emne: RE: [ANE-2] deportation and repatriation

                Dear Niels-Peter,

                This is from my commentary on Ezra-Nehemiah (forthcoming).



                The Jews were not the only community to return from Babylon to
                their ancestral homeland under the Achaemenids. The 1926-27 excavations at
                Neirab, Syria, unearthed an archive of clay tablets dating from the reign of
                Nebuchadnezzar to the early years of Darius I (i.e., from 560 to 520 BCE)
                which recorded loans of barley and silver. The documents all refer to a
                people named the Neirabians, i.e., the people who lived in the city where
                the archive was found. Yet the places where the transactions occurred were
                in the vicinity of Nippur in Babylon. This was evidently the archive of a
                community of Syrians which had been exiled to Nippur under Nebuchadnezzar
                and which had been released to their own city in the beginning of Darius'
                reign (Eph'al 1978). As with the Jews, they had maintained a community
                identity in exile in Babylon for four decades, returning to their own city
                as soon as they were able.





                Lisbeth S. Fried, Ph.D.

                Department of Near Eastern Studies

                and the Frankel Center for Judaic Studies

                University of Michigan

                202 S. Thayer -- Room 4111

                Ann Arbor, MI 48104

                www.lizfried.com <http://www.lizfried.com/>





                _____

                From: ANE-2@yahoogroups.com <mailto:ANE-2%40yahoogroups.com>
                [mailto:ANE-2@yahoogroups.com <mailto:ANE-2%40yahoogroups.com> ] On Behalf
                Of
                Niels Peter Lemche
                Sent: Monday, August 16, 2010 8:36 AM
                To: ANE-2@yahoogroups.com <mailto:ANE-2%40yahoogroups.com>
                Subject: [ANE-2] deportation and repatriation





                Because of a discussion -- a seminar -- on the Biblical Studies list:

                Do we have other examples from the ANE of repatriation of deported people,
                apart from the one in the Old Testament? (this is not a discussion about the
                historicity of that event--if that had been the case, I would not have
                brought it up here).

                I know of repatriation of abducted gods from Babylonian tradition, but of
                human beings?

                Niels Peter Lemche





                [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]



                ------------------------------------

                Yahoo! Groups Links








                [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
              • Niels Peter Lemche
                Dear Liz, may I suggest that we take this discussion to the biblical studies list where we have as eminar based on Ahn s forthcoming book on the exile. It is
                Message 7 of 21 , Aug 16, 2010
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                  Dear Liz,

                  may I suggest that we take this discussion to the biblical studies list where we have as eminar based on Ahn's forthcoming book on the exile. It is hardly a matter that suits this forum. I only asked for parallels. And sorry to all for my earlier mail. I forgot to check that it did not go to biblical studies.

                  Niels Peter Lemche



                  -----Oprindelig meddelelse-----
                  Fra: ANE-2@yahoogroups.com [mailto:ANE-2@yahoogroups.com] På vegne af Niels Peter Lemche
                  Sendt: den 16 augusti 2010 19:31
                  Til: ANE-2@yahoogroups.com
                  Emne: SV: [ANE-2] deportation and repatriation

                  and you find evidence of such a return in the archaeological material from the Jerusalem area?

                  Sorry, I have absolutely no confidence in Ezra/Nehemiah as a historical source.

                  Niels Peter Lemche



                  -----Oprindelig meddelelse-----
                  Fra: ANE-2@yahoogroups.com [mailto:ANE-2@yahoogroups.com] På vegne af Lisbeth S. Fried
                  Sendt: den 16 augusti 2010 18:59
                  Til: ANE-2@yahoogroups.com
                  Emne: RE: [ANE-2] deportation and repatriation

                  Dear Niels-Peter,

                  This is from my commentary on Ezra-Nehemiah (forthcoming).



                  The Jews were not the only community to return from Babylon to
                  their ancestral homeland under the Achaemenids. The 1926-27 excavations at
                  Neirab, Syria, unearthed an archive of clay tablets dating from the reign of
                  Nebuchadnezzar to the early years of Darius I (i.e., from 560 to 520 BCE)
                  which recorded loans of barley and silver. The documents all refer to a
                  people named the Neirabians, i.e., the people who lived in the city where
                  the archive was found. Yet the places where the transactions occurred were
                  in the vicinity of Nippur in Babylon. This was evidently the archive of a
                  community of Syrians which had been exiled to Nippur under Nebuchadnezzar
                  and which had been released to their own city in the beginning of Darius'
                  reign (Eph'al 1978). As with the Jews, they had maintained a community
                  identity in exile in Babylon for four decades, returning to their own city
                  as soon as they were able.





                  Lisbeth S. Fried, Ph.D.

                  Department of Near Eastern Studies

                  and the Frankel Center for Judaic Studies

                  University of Michigan

                  202 S. Thayer -- Room 4111

                  Ann Arbor, MI 48104

                  www.lizfried.com <http://www.lizfried.com/>





                  _____

                  From: ANE-2@yahoogroups.com [mailto:ANE-2@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of
                  Niels Peter Lemche
                  Sent: Monday, August 16, 2010 8:36 AM
                  To: ANE-2@yahoogroups.com
                  Subject: [ANE-2] deportation and repatriation





                  Because of a discussion -- a seminar -- on the Biblical Studies list:

                  Do we have other examples from the ANE of repatriation of deported people,
                  apart from the one in the Old Testament? (this is not a discussion about the
                  historicity of that event--if that had been the case, I would not have
                  brought it up here).

                  I know of repatriation of abducted gods from Babylonian tradition, but of
                  human beings?

                  Niels Peter Lemche





                  [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]



                  ------------------------------------

                  Yahoo! Groups Links





                  ------------------------------------

                  Yahoo! Groups Links
                • Niels Peter Lemche
                  As I said to Liz, Take this discussion to where it belongs: Biblical Studies. Discussions about biblical historicity are normally not welcome on this list. And
                  Message 8 of 21 , Aug 16, 2010
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                    As I said to Liz,

                    Take this discussion to where it belongs: Biblical Studies. Discussions about biblical historicity are normally not welcome on this list. And you are already involved in the discussion on biblical studies.

                    Niels Peter Lemche

                    -----Oprindelig meddelelse-----
                    Fra: ANE-2@yahoogroups.com [mailto:ANE-2@yahoogroups.com] På vegne af Michael Banyai
                    Sendt: den 16 augusti 2010 18:29
                    Til: ANE-2@yahoogroups.com
                    Emne: AW: [ANE-2] SV: deportation and repatriation

                    The 70 years of exile, Thomas is speaking about, appear also in the prophecy
                    of Isaiah 23:15 and 17 about Tyre. This seems to be an important
                    Mesopotamian topos, first appearing in biblical works following contacts
                    with Assyria. It may have been a current curse in standard contracts with
                    Assyria by that time, thus being the real consequence of breaking a contract
                    closed with Assyria.



                    Thus is the later prophecy of Jeremiah 29:10, 25:11-12 concerning the 70
                    year of banishment nothing else than rendering the exact provisions of the
                    contract between Judah and Babylon, one of its copies being deposed in the
                    temple of Jerusalem. Of course would the punishment come from Yahweh, since
                    he is the one to implement the curses of the contract on Judean side. The
                    attempts to hinder the accession of Jeremiah to the temple are to be seen in
                    this context. Yahweh, as the one to punish Judah for breaking the contract,
                    would return his grace to his people after punishing it, as according to the
                    contract.



                    My father taught me to read attentively each time the lowercased text in a
                    contract, for eventually hidden provisions.



                    Regards,



                    Michael Bányai

                    Oberursel



                    Von: ANE-2@yahoogroups.com [mailto:ANE-2@yahoogroups.com] Im Auftrag von
                    Thomas L. Thompson
                    Gesendet: Montag, 16. August 2010 15:05
                    An: ANE-2@yahoogroups.com
                    Betreff: [ANE-2] SV: deportation and repatriation





                    Although the motifs are variant, one might also think of Esarhaddon's
                    "biography" in which Babylon is punished by the gods with a (the?) flood and
                    the people exiled. After a serendipitous 11 years (reversing a divinely
                    cursed exile of 70 years with the help of cuneiform's wonderful
                    orthography), Esarhaddon is called by the gods to reunite people, gods and
                    king.
                    Thomas

                    Thomas L Thompson
                    Professor emeritus, University of Copenhagen

                    ________________________________________
                    Fra: ANE-2@yahoogroups.com <mailto:ANE-2%40yahoogroups.com>
                    [ANE-2@yahoogroups.com <mailto:ANE-2%40yahoogroups.com> ] På vegne af
                    Thomas L. Thompson [tlt@... <mailto:tlt%40teol.ku.dk> ]
                    Sendt: 16. august 2010 14:42
                    Til: ANE-2@yahoogroups.com <mailto:ANE-2%40yahoogroups.com>
                    Emne: [ANE-2] SV: deportation and repatriation

                    Yes, Assurbanipal II in one "deportation" text (ANET?) refers to bringing
                    the people of a town in Lebanon back to their homes and I believe there are
                    a few comparable texts.
                    Thomas

                    Because of a discussion -- a seminar -- on the Biblical Studies list:

                    Do we have other examples from the ANE of repatriation of deported people,
                    apart from the one in the Old Testament? (this is not a discussion about the
                    historicity of that event--if that had been the case, I would not have
                    brought it up here).

                    I know of repatriation of abducted gods from Babylonian tradition, but of
                    human beings?

                    Niels Peter Lemche

                    ------------------------------------

                    Yahoo! Groups Links

                    http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/





                    [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]



                    ------------------------------------

                    Yahoo! Groups Links
                  • Francesco Brighenti
                    ... Cf. also the case of the Persian Empire. Foreign workers, called _kurtash_, who were sometimes slaves, sometimes free people working for wages, and
                    Message 9 of 21 , Aug 17, 2010
                    • 0 Attachment
                      --- In ANE-2@yahoogroups.com, "Michael Banyai" <michael.banyai@...> wrote:

                      > The 70 years of exile, Thomas is speaking about, appear also in
                      > the prophecy of Isaiah 23:15 and 17 about Tyre. This seems to be
                      > an important Mesopotamian topos, first appearing in biblical works
                      > following contacts with Assyria. It may have been a current curse
                      > in standard contracts with Assyria by that time, thus being the
                      > real consequence of breaking a contract closed with Assyria.

                      Cf. also the case of the Persian Empire.

                      Foreign workers, called _kurtash_, who were sometimes slaves,
                      sometimes free people working for wages, and sometimes indentured
                      servants, were resettled by the Persians in different satrapies of
                      their empire. Other groups of foreig workers were settled in Babylonia by the Persians under the _hatru_ system, by virtue of which a community was allotted an area that it cultivated in family plots on condition of military service and payment of an annual tax.

                      Apart from the _kurtash_ and _hatru_ systems, the Achaemenids apparently resorted to deportation of entire foreign communities when these broke some kind of 'contract' made with them. This is evinced by the deportation of some (presumably numerically large) Greek communities to Bactria and Sogdiana -- which H.G. Rawlinson has termed as the "Siberia" of the Achaemenian Empire! -- inferred on the basis of the following sources:

                      * Herodotus (4.204) writes that the inhabitants of the city of Barca
                      in Cyrenaica were deported by Darius I to a village in Bactria that
                      was also named Barca.

                      * Herodotus (6.9) also mentions a threat made by the Persian
                      commanders to the inhabitants of Miletus at the culmination of the
                      Ionian Revolt before the battle of Lade (494 B.C.) that their
                      maidens would be deported to Bactria. This can be taken as a mere
                      suggestion that the Persians used to threaten their Greek enemies to
                      deport the population of their cities to the far eastern portions of
                      their empire, and we aren't told they really did this to the
                      Milesians; yet, this passage by Herodotus has its importance
                      inasmuch as it was written a few decades after the Persian Wars.

                      * Curtius (7.5.28-35) and Strabo (11.11.4) describe the episode of
                      Alexander's encounter with, and subsequent destruction of, the
                      alleged descendants of the Branchidae, a clan of Ionian priestly
                      functionaries attached to the sanctuary of Apollo at Didyma near
                      Miletus and relocated by the Persians in a settlement
                      between Bactria and Sogdiana (some scholars think it was half-way
                      between present-day Balkh and Samarkand). Curtius and Strabo's
                      common, earlier source is Callisthenes, Alexander's historian. W.W.
                      Tarn and other historians have dismissed this episode as an invention of Callisthenes', but it is possible that the Branchidae no less than the Barcaeans were deported by the Persians to Bactria-Sogdiana.

                      * There is another possible example of a historical deportation of
                      Greeks to Bactria by the Achaemenids: that of the inhabitants of the
                      city of Kariatas (mentioned in Strabo 11.11.4 as the place where
                      Callisthenes was arrested; Latin Cariatae), who like the Branchidae
                      were massacred by Alexander. According to F.L. Holt (_Alexander the
                      Great and Bactria: The Formation of a Greek Frontier in Central
                      Asia_, Brill Archive, 1988, p. 73, n. 94), they may have been the
                      descendants of Greeks from Caria in Asia Minor.

                      In sum, only the deportation of the Barcaeans to Bactria seems to be
                      warranted by near-contemporary souces (Herodotus), yet there are
                      indications (Curtius, Strabo) that other Greek communities were
                      deported by the Persian to Bactria or Sogdiana. Other such
                      deportations could have simply escaped the notice of ancient
                      historians.

                      Kindest regards,

                      Francesco Brighenti
                      Venice, Italy
                    • Francesco Brighenti
                      ... OK, this apparently settles the question. I didn t know Egypt is never mentioned in the Mari letters. So, judging from what you write, Meluhha, that is,
                      Message 10 of 21 , Aug 17, 2010
                      • 0 Attachment
                        --- In ANE-2@yahoogroups.com, "Michael" <michael.banyai@...> wrote:

                        > Dear Francesco,
                        >
                        > Your question can be easily answered. Do we have in the
                        > Mari texts any mentions of Egypt? No.
                        >
                        > Then, since any imaginable route connecting Mari trade to
                        > an African Meluhha, would have necessarily passed by Egypt,
                        > we can have here no mention of an African Meluhha.

                        OK, this apparently settles the question. I didn't know Egypt is never
                        mentioned in the Mari letters.

                        So, judging from what you write, Meluhha, that is, the coastal areas of the by then defunct Indus Civilization, was somewhat 'remembered' in the Mari letters, i.e. in the time of Hammurabi, some centuries after the end of that South Asian civilization.

                        In this case, the shift in the location of Meluhha to eastern Africa (as seen, for instance, in the Amarna letters) must have occurred toward or after the end of the Old Babylonian period.

                        Again thanks! And best regards.

                        Francesco Brighenti
                        Venice, Italy
                      • Rafal Kolinski
                        Dear Francesco,   if you read French, try:   B. Groeneberg, La golfe arabo-persique, vu de MAri, Florilegium MArianum I, 1992, 69-80.   I am sorry for a
                        Message 11 of 21 , Aug 31, 2012
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                          Dear Francesco,
                           
                          if you read French, try:
                           
                          B. Groeneberg, La golfe arabo-persique, vu de MAri, Florilegium MArianum I, 1992, 69-80.
                           
                          I am sorry for a late answer but only now I was ble to sort through archivail e-mails
                           
                          best regards
                           
                          Rafal Kolinski
                          Institute of Prehistory
                          Adam Mickiewicz University
                          Poznan, Poland


                          ________________________________
                          From: Francesco Brighenti <frabrig@...>
                          To: ANE-2@yahoogroups.com
                          Sent: Wednesday, 28 July 2010, 22:29
                          Subject: [ANE-2] Mari Letters


                           


                          Dear members of the List,

                          In this paper:

                          Nicole Boivin & Dorian Q. Fuller, "Shell Middens, Ships and Seeds: Exploring Coastal Subsistence, Maritime Trade and the Dispersal of Domesticates in and Around the Ancient Arabian Peninsula," _Journal of World Prehistory_ 22 (2009), pp. 113-180,

                          I read (on p. 155):

                          "Evidence for Harappan trade [with the Persian Gulf and Mesopotamia -- Francesco] continues into the Late Harappan period, as evidenced by both archaeological finds and textual sources like the Mari letters (Carter 2001; Warburton 2007). [...] [T]rade was by this point clearly with the Late Harappan communities of Gujarat, rather than the now disintegrated society of the Indus Valley proper."

                          The two sources cited by the authors in this passage are:

                          Carter, R. (2006). Boat remains and maritime trade in the Persian Gulf during the sixth and fifth millennia BC. Antiquity, 80, 52-63.

                          Warburton, D. A. (2007). What happened in the Near East ca. 2000 BC? In E. H. Seland (Ed.), The Indian Ocean in the Ancient Period: Definite places, translocal exchange. Oxford: BAR International Series 1593.

                          Can anyone here provide any references to the above mentioned textual evidence for Indo-Mesopotamian trade relations (allegedly) contained in the Mari Letters (c. 1800 BCE)?

                          Thanks in advance, and best regards.

                          Francesco Brighenti, Ph.D.
                          VAIS -- Venetian Academy of Indian Studies
                          Venice, Italy




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