Loading ...
Sorry, an error occurred while loading the content.

Mari Letters

Expand Messages
  • Francesco Brighenti
    Dear members of the List, In this paper: Nicole Boivin & Dorian Q. Fuller, Shell Middens, Ships and Seeds: Exploring Coastal Subsistence, Maritime Trade and
    Message 1 of 21 , Jul 28, 2010
    • 0 Attachment
      Dear members of the List,

      In this paper:

      Nicole Boivin & Dorian Q. Fuller, "Shell Middens, Ships and Seeds: Exploring Coastal Subsistence, Maritime Trade and the Dispersal of Domesticates in and Around the Ancient Arabian Peninsula," _Journal of World Prehistory_ 22 (2009), pp. 113-180,

      I read (on p. 155):

      "Evidence for Harappan trade [with the Persian Gulf and Mesopotamia -- Francesco] continues into the Late Harappan period, as evidenced by both archaeological finds and textual sources like the Mari letters (Carter 2001; Warburton 2007). [...] [T]rade was by this point clearly with the Late Harappan communities of Gujarat, rather than the now disintegrated society of the Indus Valley proper."

      The two sources cited by the authors in this passage are:

      Carter, R. (2006). Boat remains and maritime trade in the Persian Gulf during the sixth and fifth millennia BC. Antiquity, 80, 52-63.

      Warburton, D. A. (2007). What happened in the Near East ca. 2000 BC? In E. H. Seland (Ed.), The Indian Ocean in the Ancient Period: Definite places, translocal exchange. Oxford: BAR International Series 1593.

      Can anyone here provide any references to the above mentioned textual evidence for Indo-Mesopotamian trade relations (allegedly) contained in the Mari Letters (c. 1800 BCE)?

      Thanks in advance, and best regards.

      Francesco Brighenti, Ph.D.
      VAIS -- Venetian Academy of Indian Studies
      Venice, Italy
    • EHEINR007@aol.com
      I think you referenced the wrong Carter article: Carter, R. (2001). Saar and its external relations: New evidence for interaction between Bahrain and Gujarat
      Message 2 of 21 , Jul 28, 2010
      • 0 Attachment
        I think you referenced the wrong Carter article:
        Carter, R. (2001). Saar and its external relations: New evidence for interaction between Bahrain and Gujarat
        during the early second millennium BC. Arabian Archaeology and Epigraphy, 12, 183–201.
        Carter, R. (2005). The history and prehistory of pearling in the Persian Gulf. Journal of the Economic and
        Social History of the Orient, 48(2), 139–209.
        Carter, R. (2006). Boat remains and maritime trade in the Persian Gulf during the sixth and fifth millennia
        BC. Antiquity, 80, 52–63.
        Carter, R., & Crawford, H. E. W. (2003). The Kuwait-British archaeological expedition to as-Sabiyah:
        Report on the fourth season’s work. Iraq, LXV, 77–90.
        The one you mention is about a period well before the Harappan, Mesopotamian or Egyptian civilizations existed. The complete text of Boivin's article can be found at http://sealinks.arch.ox.ac.uk/documents/Boivin_Fuller_2009.pdf.


        Arabian Archaeology and Epigraphy, 12, 183–201.
        Carter, R. (2005). The history and prehistory of pearling in the Persian Gulf. Journal of the Economic and
        Social History of the Orient, 48(2), 139–209.
        Carter, R. (2006). Boat remains and maritime trade in the Persian Gulf during the sixth and fifth millennia
        BC. Antiquity, 80, 52–63.
        Carter, R., & Crawford, H. E. W. (2003). The Kuwait-British archaeological expedition to as-Sabiyah:
        Report on the fourth season’s work. Iraq, LXV, 77–90.
        The one you mention is about a period well before the Harappan, Mesopotamian or Egyptian civilizations existed. The complete text of Boivin's article can be found at http://sealinks.arch.ox.ac.uk/documents/Boivin_Fuller_2009.pdf.


        Journal of the Economic and
        Social History of the Orient, 48(2), 139–209.
        Carter, R. (2006). Boat remains and maritime trade in the Persian Gulf during the sixth and fifth millennia
        BC. Antiquity, 80, 52–63.
        Carter, R., & Crawford, H. E. W. (2003). The Kuwait-British archaeological expedition to as-Sabiyah:
        Report on the fourth season’s work. Iraq, LXV, 77–90.
        The one you mention is about a period well before the Harappan, Mesopotamian or Egyptian civilizations existed. The complete text of Boivin's article can be found at http://sealinks.arch.ox.ac.uk/documents/Boivin_Fuller_2009.pdf.

        (2), 139–209.
        Carter, R. (2006). Boat remains and maritime trade in the Persian Gulf during the sixth and fifth millennia
        BC. Antiquity, 80, 52–63.
        Carter, R., & Crawford, H. E. W. (2003). The Kuwait-British archaeological expedition to as-Sabiyah:
        Report on the fourth season’s work. Iraq, LXV, 77–90.
        The one you mention is about a period well before the Harappan, Mesopotamian or Egyptian civilizations existed. The complete text of Boivin's article can be found at http://sealinks.arch.ox.ac.uk/documents/Boivin_Fuller_2009.pdf.

        Antiquity, 80, 52–63.
        Carter, R., & Crawford, H. E. W. (2003). The Kuwait-British archaeological expedition to as-Sabiyah:
        Report on the fourth season’s work. Iraq, LXV, 77–90.
        The one you mention is about a period well before the Harappan, Mesopotamian or Egyptian civilizations existed. The complete text of Boivin's article can be found at http://sealinks.arch.ox.ac.uk/documents/Boivin_Fuller_2009.pdf.
        Iraq, LXV, 77–90.
        The one you mention is about a period well before the Harappan, Mesopotamian or Egyptian civilizations existed. The complete text of Boivin's article can be found at http://sealinks.arch.ox.ac.uk/documents/Boivin_Fuller_2009.pdf.
        The one you mention is about a period well before the Harappan, Mesopotamian or Egyptian civilizations existed. The complete text of Boivin's article can be found at http://sealinks.arch.ox.ac.uk/documents/Boivin_Fuller_2009.pdf.
        Earl J. Heinrich
        Plymouth, MN


        -----Original Message-----
        From: Francesco Brighenti <frabrig@...>
        To: ANE-2@yahoogroups.com
        Sent: Wed, Jul 28, 2010 3:29 pm
        Subject: [ANE-2] Mari Letters






        Dear members of the List,

        In this paper:

        Nicole Boivin & Dorian Q. Fuller, "Shell Middens, Ships and Seeds: Exploring Coastal Subsistence, Maritime Trade and the Dispersal of Domesticates in and Around the Ancient Arabian Peninsula," _Journal of World Prehistory_ 22 (2009), pp. 113-180,

        I read (on p. 155):

        "Evidence for Harappan trade [with the Persian Gulf and Mesopotamia -- Francesco] continues into the Late Harappan period, as evidenced by both archaeological finds and textual sources like the Mari letters (Carter 2001; Warburton 2007). [...] [T]rade was by this point clearly with the Late Harappan communities of Gujarat, rather than the now disintegrated society of the Indus Valley proper."

        The two sources cited by the authors in this passage are:

        Carter, R. (2006). Boat remains and maritime trade in the Persian Gulf during the sixth and fifth millennia BC. Antiquity, 80, 52-63.

        Warburton, D. A. (2007). What happened in the Near East ca. 2000 BC? In E. H. Seland (Ed.), The Indian Ocean in the Ancient Period: Definite places, translocal exchange. Oxford: BAR International Series 1593.

        Can anyone here provide any references to the above mentioned textual evidence for Indo-Mesopotamian trade relations (allegedly) contained in the Mari Letters (c. 1800 BCE)?

        Thanks in advance, and best regards.

        Francesco Brighenti, Ph.D.
        VAIS -- Venetian Academy of Indian Studies
        Venice, Italy







        [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
      • Antonio Lombatti
        It s a worshipping small statue: http://www.dailystar.com.lb/article.asp?edition_id=1&categ_id=1&article_id=117518#axzz0uzhgs17S Antonio Lombatti ...
        Message 3 of 21 , Jul 29, 2010
        • 0 Attachment
          It's a worshipping small statue:

          http://www.dailystar.com.lb/article.asp?edition_id=1&categ_id=1&article_id=117518#axzz0uzhgs17S

          Antonio Lombatti


          --------------------------------------
          http://www.antoniolombatti.it
          Dottore in Storia della Chiesa
          Deputazione di Storia Patria
          Parma, Italia
        • Francesco Brighenti
          Earl J. Heinrich wrote, re. my post archived at ... You re completely right. Apologies to all for my mistake! R. Carter s article in question is available
          Message 4 of 21 , Jul 29, 2010
          • 0 Attachment
            Earl J. Heinrich wrote, re. my post archived at

            http://groups.yahoo.com/group/ANE-2/message/12682 :

            > I think you referenced the wrong Carter article:
            >
            > Carter, R. (2001). Saar and its external relations: New evidence
            > for interaction between Bahrain and Gujarat during the early
            > second millennium BC. Arabian Archaeology and Epigraphy, 12, 183-
            > 201.
            >
            > [SNIP]
            >
            > The complete text of Boivin's article [from which the above
            > citation is taken: see p. 155 in the article -- FB] can be
            > found at
            >
            > http://sealinks.arch.ox.ac.uk/documents/Boivin_Fuller_2009.pdf


            You're completely right. Apologies to all for my mistake!

            R. Carter's article in question is available online at

            http://tinyurl.com/35uaq8x

            At p. 194 in this article Carter writes:

            "Taken together, the evidence from Saar [a site in Bahrain -- FB] and Qala'at al-Bahrain suggests a lapse in contacts [between Bahrain and Gujarat -- FB] some time during the nineteenth century BC. Unless the early second-millennium chronology of Qala'at al-Bahrain and Saar is lowered (e.g. by extending the span of Qala'at IIb and IIc), this would occur slightly before the terminal dates assigned to the Harappan occupations of Lothal and Rangpur [conventionally fixed at ca. 1900 BC -- FB]."

            And, after much speculation on early-second millennium trade relations between 'Dilmun' (= Bahrain) and Gujarat (pp. 194-97), he concludes:

            "[T]he ceramics at Saar clearly show a close relationship between
            that site and ancient Saurashtra [i.e. Gujarat -- FB] during the first two centuries of the second millennium" (p. 197).

            So far for the archaeological evidence cited in Boivin & Fuller's paper. Yet what I am most concerned with is the mentions of trade items shipped from India (Gujarat?) allegedly contained in the Mari letters. The source cited by Boivin & Fuller in this case is (as I have already mentioned in my first message):

            D.A. Warburton, "What Happened in the Near East ca. 2000 BC?", in E.H. Seland (ed.), _The Indian Ocean in the Ancient Period: Definite Places, Translocal Exchange_, Oxford, BAR International Series, Vol. 1593, 2007, pp. 9-22.

            I could locate the following snippet from this article by browsing the Google Books website. Here they are:

            "[There are] references contemporary with the lifetime of Hammurabi of Babylon mentioning Oman, the Indus, Bahrain and Crete in the Mari letters. It is significant that the Indus region is mentioned in the Mari letters several centuries after the end of the mature Harappan Civilization" (p. 18).

            There is a note (n. 52), appended to this passage, which I cannot read. That note probably points to the said references contained in the Mari letters, or to some other publication discussing them!

            Does anyone here have access to Warburton's article?

            Thanks again, and best regards.

            Francesco Brighenti
            Venice, Italy
          • Patty Hamrick
            ... Babylon mentioning Oman, the Indus, Bahrain and Crete in the Mari letters. It is significant that the Indus region is mentioned in the Mari
            Message 5 of 21 , Aug 5, 2010
            • 0 Attachment
              > I could locate the following snippet from this article by browsing the
              Google Books website. Here they are:
              >
              > "[There are] references contemporary with the lifetime of Hammurabi of
              Babylon mentioning Oman, the > Indus, Bahrain and Crete in the Mari
              letters. It is significant that the Indus region is mentioned in the
              Mari > letters several centuries after the end of the mature Harappan
              Civilization" (p. 18).
              >
              > There is a note (n. 52), appended to this passage, which I cannot read.
              That note probably points to the said > references contained in the Mari
              letters, or to some other publication discussing them!
              >
              > Does anyone here have access to Warburton's article?

              Having read the Warburton article, the sentence you quote is the only
              mention of a connection between the Indus and the Mari letters. The
              reference, 52, is to Durand 1983: 516, referring to:

              Durand, J.-M. 1983. *Textes administratifs des salles 134 et 160 du Palais
              de Mari. *Paris: Archives Royales de Mari 21.

              I then looked this up, and the relevant passage is:
              "On leur achete toutes sortes de biens: bois (214, 215), laine (216), huile
              (210): donc eventuellement meme des matieres premieres qui sont produites
              par le pays meme de Mari. Les achats leur sont faits en argent. Ces
              marchands proviennent de Karkemis (215) et d'Emar (210).Mais a cote de ces
              attestations precises, les ethniques qui qualifient les biens attestes a
              Mari montrent que son horizon est singulierement ouvert, puisque pour ne
              citer que les terres les plus lointaines on constate la presence de Magan,
              Meluhha, Dlimun et la Crete. Pas de renseignements nets pour l'instant
              encore sur les "marchands mariotes" et les quelques operations commerciales
              que l'on voit se nouer, comme la tentative de Hammi-sagis de se procurer
              grace a Ishi-Dagan, de l'etain contre de l'or en Elam, ne sont pas encore
              bien eclaircies, faute de contexte." (apologies for leaving out the accent
              marks.)

              I couldn't find any more detail than that. Hopefully this helps your
              research!

              -Patricia Hamrick
              New York University,
              New York City

              On 29 July 2010 15:36, Francesco Brighenti <frabrig@...> wrote:

              >
              >
              >
              >
              > Earl J. Heinrich wrote, re. my post archived at
              >
              > http://groups.yahoo.com/group/ANE-2/message/12682 :
              >
              >
              > > I think you referenced the wrong Carter article:
              > >
              > > Carter, R. (2001). Saar and its external relations: New evidence
              > > for interaction between Bahrain and Gujarat during the early
              > > second millennium BC. Arabian Archaeology and Epigraphy, 12, 183-
              > > 201.
              > >
              > > [SNIP]
              > >
              > > The complete text of Boivin's article [from which the above
              > > citation is taken: see p. 155 in the article -- FB] can be
              >
              > > found at
              > >
              > > http://sealinks.arch.ox.ac.uk/documents/Boivin_Fuller_2009.pdf
              >
              > You're completely right. Apologies to all for my mistake!
              >
              > R. Carter's article in question is available online at
              >
              > http://tinyurl.com/35uaq8x
              >
              > At p. 194 in this article Carter writes:
              >
              > "Taken together, the evidence from Saar [a site in Bahrain -- FB] and
              > Qala'at al-Bahrain suggests a lapse in contacts [between Bahrain and Gujarat
              > -- FB] some time during the nineteenth century BC. Unless the early
              > second-millennium chronology of Qala'at al-Bahrain and Saar is lowered (e.g.
              > by extending the span of Qala'at IIb and IIc), this would occur slightly
              > before the terminal dates assigned to the Harappan occupations of Lothal and
              > Rangpur [conventionally fixed at ca. 1900 BC -- FB]."
              >
              > And, after much speculation on early-second millennium trade relations
              > between 'Dilmun' (= Bahrain) and Gujarat (pp. 194-97), he concludes:
              >
              > "[T]he ceramics at Saar clearly show a close relationship between
              > that site and ancient Saurashtra [i.e. Gujarat -- FB] during the first two
              > centuries of the second millennium" (p. 197).
              >
              > So far for the archaeological evidence cited in Boivin & Fuller's paper.
              > Yet what I am most concerned with is the mentions of trade items shipped
              > from India (Gujarat?) allegedly contained in the Mari letters. The source
              > cited by Boivin & Fuller in this case is (as I have already mentioned in my
              > first message):
              >
              > D.A. Warburton, "What Happened in the Near East ca. 2000 BC?", in E.H.
              > Seland (ed.), _The Indian Ocean in the Ancient Period: Definite Places,
              > Translocal Exchange_, Oxford, BAR International Series, Vol. 1593, 2007, pp.
              > 9-22.
              >
              > I could locate the following snippet from this article by browsing the
              > Google Books website. Here they are:
              >
              > "[There are] references contemporary with the lifetime of Hammurabi of
              > Babylon mentioning Oman, the Indus, Bahrain and Crete in the Mari letters.
              > It is significant that the Indus region is mentioned in the Mari letters
              > several centuries after the end of the mature Harappan Civilization" (p.
              > 18).
              >
              > There is a note (n. 52), appended to this passage, which I cannot read.
              > That note probably points to the said references contained in the Mari
              > letters, or to some other publication discussing them!
              >
              > Does anyone here have access to Warburton's article?
              >
              > Thanks again, and best regards.
              >
              > Francesco Brighenti
              > Venice, Italy
              >
              >
              >


              [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
            • Francesco Brighenti
              Dear Patricia, Thanks for your very useful quote. ... So we are merely dealing here with mentions of the Sumero-Akkadian toponym Meluhha in texts from the
              Message 6 of 21 , Aug 9, 2010
              • 0 Attachment
                Dear Patricia,

                Thanks for your very useful quote.

                You write:

                > Having read the Warburton article [D.A. Warburton, "What Happened
                > in the Near East ca. 2000 BC?", in E.H. Seland, ed., _The Indian
                > Ocean in the Ancient Period: Definite Places, Translocal Exchange_,
                > Oxford, BAR International Series, Vol. 1593, 2007, pp. 9-22 -- FB],
                > the sentence you quote is the only mention of a connection between
                > the Indus and the Mari letters. The reference, 52, is to Durand
                > 1983: 516, referring to:
                >
                > Durand, J.-M. 1983. *Textes administratifs des salles 134 et 160 du
                > Palais de Mari. *Paris: Archives Royales de Mari 21.
                >
                > I then looked this up, and the relevant passage is:
                >
                > " [...] [L]es ethniques qui qualifient les biens attestes a Mari
                > montrent que son horizon est singulierement ouvert, puisque pour ne
                > citer que les terres les plus lointaines on constate la presence de
                > Magan, Meluhha, Dlimun et la Crete"
                >
                > I couldn't find any more detail than that. Hopefully this helps your
                > research!

                So we are merely dealing here with mentions of the Sumero-Akkadian toponym 'Meluhha' in texts from the Royal Archives of Mari? No mention in Durand's paper of any trade items associated with this 'Meluhha'? (I read, for instance, of a mention of 'wood of Meluhha' in Durand's article here: <http://tinyurl.com/36wn5f6>; is this fragmented text from the Mari Royal Archives?)

                The land of 'Meluhha', and sometimes her products, are also mentioned in Old Baylonian texts which, I would assume, date from the same broad period (post-1800 BCE) the Mari letters do. A partial list of Old Babylonian references to Meluhha is found in G.L. Possehl's paper "Meluhha", in J. Reade (ed.), _The Indian Ocean in
                Antiquity_, London, Kegan Paul International, 1996, pp. 133-208. The list (pp. 142-44) includes Enki and the World Order, Enki and Ninhursag, the Lips^ur litanies, tablets from Nippur, formulae, incantations, lexical glosses etc.

                In this connection, I recall having read that, at certain time, the location of the lands of Magan and Meluhha shifted in the Mesopotamian worldview. After the end of the Old Babylonian period, the terms Magan and Meluhha were used exclusively, and this only in literary contexts, to denote, respectively, Egypt (and, perhaps, parts of Nubia too) and Nubia (and, perhaps, also other regions extending as far as Ethiopia).

                The two toponyms, which in the third and early second millennia had designated countries situated in the eastern limits of the geographical horizon, were transferred to two other far-off countries situated in the southern limits of the geographical horizon: Northeast Africa. Akkadian cuneiform texts, starting from the Amarna letters of Egypt (14th century BCE) and reaching into Neo-Assyrian inscriptions, consistently identify Meluhha with a land south of
                Egypt -- Nubia/Kush, or perhaps even Ethiopia/Punt. Neo-Assyrian inscriptions identify Magan with Egypt itself.

                The Achaemenids later reverted to the use of the toponym Maka (i.e., the older Magan) to designate a satrapy situated on the Gulf of Oman coast, though it is unclear whether the Iranian or Arabian side of it is meant, or both taken together (as it appears to be the case with the older Sumero-Akkadian place-name Magan). The designation Magan/Maka(n) was, therefore, rather "mobile" in the Bronze and Iron Ages. In the case of Meluhha, however, there seems to have been no later re-adoption of this name to designate the country it had formerly designated, namely, the coastal regions of northwestern South Asia. Meluhha continued to be identified with a country south of Egypt till the end of the Assyrian Empire.

                Thus, my new question is: Are we sure that the land of Meluhha mentioned in Mari administrative texts, as well as the Meluhha mentioned in texts from the Old Babylonian period in general, was still meant to be the "older" one situated in South Asia? Or was it already the African Meluhha?

                Again thanks, and any further insight will be welcome.

                Regards,
                Francesco Brighenti
                Venice, Italy


                > -Patricia Hamrick
                > New York University,
                > New York City
              • Michael
                Dear Francesco, your question can be easily answered. Do we have in the Mari texts any mentions of Egypt? No. Than, since any imaginable route connecting Mari
                Message 7 of 21 , Aug 12, 2010
                • 0 Attachment
                  Dear Francesco,

                  your question can be easily answered. Do we have in the Mari texts any mentions of Egypt? No.

                  Than, since any imaginable route connecting Mari trade to an African Meluhha, would have necessarily passed by Egypt, we can have here no mention of an African Meluhha.

                  > Thus, my new question is: Are we sure that the land of Meluhha mentioned in Mari administrative texts, as well as the Meluhha mentioned in texts from the Old Babylonian period in general, was still meant to be the "older" one situated in South Asia? Or was it already the African Meluhha? <

                  The problem is however still a little more complicated. We have a Hellenistic Babylonian text (astronomical Babylonian diaries) mentioning Meluhha as being maybe on the road of Antiochos IV back from Egypt (he never went farther than Lower Egypt in his campaign) 19.8 to 16.9.169.

                  "king Antiochus marched victoriously through the cities of Meluhha and..."

                  The mention on 1.10.169 of foreigners in Thebes can allude only to the Jewish Elephantine soldiers being sent North to reinforce the Ptolemaic army against the advancing Antiochos IV. (according also to Werner Huss, Egypten in hellenistischer Zeit, 2001, 554, N.129 contra Peter Franz Mittag, Antiochus IV Epiphanes, Eine politische Biographie, 2006). This is hardly the way an Egyptian source would mention the presence of an enemy army in Thebes. His first campaign as well as the later one are reputed to have ended in Lower Egypt.

                  Best regards,

                  Michael Bányai
                  Oberursel, Germany
                • Niels Peter Lemche
                  Because of a discussion -- a seminar -- on the Biblical Studies list: Do we have other examples from the ANE of repatriation of deported people, apart from the
                  Message 8 of 21 , Aug 16, 2010
                  • 0 Attachment
                    Because of a discussion -- a seminar -- on the Biblical Studies list:

                    Do we have other examples from the ANE of repatriation of deported people, apart from the one in the Old Testament? (this is not a discussion about the historicity of that event--if that had been the case, I would not have brought it up here).

                    I know of repatriation of abducted gods from Babylonian tradition, but of human beings?

                    Niels Peter Lemche
                  • Thomas L. Thompson
                    Yes, Assurbanipal II in one deportation text (ANET?) refers to bringing the people of a town in Lebanon back to their homes and I believe there are a few
                    Message 9 of 21 , Aug 16, 2010
                    • 0 Attachment
                      Yes, Assurbanipal II in one "deportation" text (ANET?) refers to bringing the people of a town in Lebanon back to their homes and I believe there are a few comparable texts.
                      Thomas



                      Because of a discussion -- a seminar -- on the Biblical Studies list:

                      Do we have other examples from the ANE of repatriation of deported people, apart from the one in the Old Testament? (this is not a discussion about the historicity of that event--if that had been the case, I would not have brought it up here).

                      I know of repatriation of abducted gods from Babylonian tradition, but of human beings?

                      Niels Peter Lemche
                    • Thomas L. Thompson
                      Although the motifs are variant, one might also think of Esarhaddon s biography in which Babylon is punished by the gods with a (the?) flood and the people
                      Message 10 of 21 , Aug 16, 2010
                      • 0 Attachment
                        Although the motifs are variant, one might also think of Esarhaddon's "biography" in which Babylon is punished by the gods with a (the?) flood and the people exiled. After a serendipitous 11 years (reversing a divinely cursed exile of 70 years with the help of cuneiform's wonderful orthography), Esarhaddon is called by the gods to reunite people, gods and king.
                        Thomas

                        Thomas L Thompson
                        Professor emeritus, University of Copenhagen

                        ________________________________________
                        Fra: ANE-2@yahoogroups.com [ANE-2@yahoogroups.com] På vegne af Thomas L. Thompson [tlt@...]
                        Sendt: 16. august 2010 14:42
                        Til: ANE-2@yahoogroups.com
                        Emne: [ANE-2] SV: deportation and repatriation

                        Yes, Assurbanipal II in one "deportation" text (ANET?) refers to bringing the people of a town in Lebanon back to their homes and I believe there are a few comparable texts.
                        Thomas



                        Because of a discussion -- a seminar -- on the Biblical Studies list:

                        Do we have other examples from the ANE of repatriation of deported people, apart from the one in the Old Testament? (this is not a discussion about the historicity of that event--if that had been the case, I would not have brought it up here).

                        I know of repatriation of abducted gods from Babylonian tradition, but of human beings?

                        Niels Peter Lemche




                        ------------------------------------

                        Yahoo! Groups Links



                        http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
                      • Michael Banyai
                        Dear Niels Peter, I think we have first to define the nature of the deportation and repatriation according to the Olt Testament etc. While the deportation
                        Message 11 of 21 , Aug 16, 2010
                        • 0 Attachment
                          Dear Niels Peter,



                          I think we have first to define the nature of the deportation and repatriation according to the Olt Testament etc. While the deportation might have been a rather large scale event, the repatriation concerned just the Israelite elites and their households. It is not a one to one reversion of the deportation.



                          Once we have accepted this formula, than we can compare it for example with the story of Idrimi, returning from exile with people of his land he managed to rally around himself in Ammija with the support of the habiru-people to Aleppo. Maybe no wonder the mention of a Halap of the Habiru.



                          Regards,



                          Michael Banyai

                          Oberursel



                          Von: ANE-2@yahoogroups.com [mailto:ANE-2@yahoogroups.com] Im Auftrag von Niels Peter Lemche
                          Gesendet: Montag, 16. August 2010 14:36
                          An: ANE-2@yahoogroups.com
                          Betreff: [ANE-2] deportation and repatriation





                          Because of a discussion -- a seminar -- on the Biblical Studies list:

                          Do we have other examples from the ANE of repatriation of deported people, apart from the one in the Old Testament? (this is not a discussion about the historicity of that event--if that had been the case, I would not have brought it up here).

                          I know of repatriation of abducted gods from Babylonian tradition, but of human beings?

                          Niels Peter Lemche





                          [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                        • victor avigdor hurowitz
                          How about the Cyrus Cylinder? In addition to repatriating the abducted gods to their sanctuary Cyrus says (following Michalowski s translation in Chavalas The
                          Message 12 of 21 , Aug 16, 2010
                          • 0 Attachment
                            How about the Cyrus Cylinder? In addition to repatriating the abducted
                            gods to
                            their sanctuary Cyrus says (following Michalowski's translation in
                            Chavalas The Ancient Near East) "I returned to these sanctuaries...the
                            images that had been in them...I also gathered all their people and
                            returned to them their habitations" The Akkadian on that last bit is
                            (following H.P. Shaudig)kullat ni$e$unu upahhiramma uter dadmi$un (line
                            32).
                            Best
                            Victor Hurowitz
                            BGU



                            On Mon, 16 Aug 2010, Niels Peter Lemche wrote:

                            > �
                            >
                            > Because of a discussion -- a seminar -- on the Biblical Studies list:
                            >
                            > Do we have other examples from the ANE of repatriation of deported people,
                            > apart from the one in the Old Testament? (this is not a discussion about the
                            > historicity of that event--if that had been the case, I would not have
                            > brought it up here).
                            >
                            > I know of repatriation of abducted gods from Babylonian tradition, but of
                            > human beings?
                            >
                            > Niels Peter Lemche
                            >
                            >
                            >
                            >

                            [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                          • Michael Banyai
                            The 70 years of exile, Thomas is speaking about, appear also in the prophecy of Isaiah 23:15 and 17 about Tyre. This seems to be an important Mesopotamian
                            Message 13 of 21 , Aug 16, 2010
                            • 0 Attachment
                              The 70 years of exile, Thomas is speaking about, appear also in the prophecy
                              of Isaiah 23:15 and 17 about Tyre. This seems to be an important
                              Mesopotamian topos, first appearing in biblical works following contacts
                              with Assyria. It may have been a current curse in standard contracts with
                              Assyria by that time, thus being the real consequence of breaking a contract
                              closed with Assyria.



                              Thus is the later prophecy of Jeremiah 29:10, 25:11-12 concerning the 70
                              year of banishment nothing else than rendering the exact provisions of the
                              contract between Judah and Babylon, one of its copies being deposed in the
                              temple of Jerusalem. Of course would the punishment come from Yahweh, since
                              he is the one to implement the curses of the contract on Judean side. The
                              attempts to hinder the accession of Jeremiah to the temple are to be seen in
                              this context. Yahweh, as the one to punish Judah for breaking the contract,
                              would return his grace to his people after punishing it, as according to the
                              contract.



                              My father taught me to read attentively each time the lowercased text in a
                              contract, for eventually hidden provisions.



                              Regards,



                              Michael Bányai

                              Oberursel



                              Von: ANE-2@yahoogroups.com [mailto:ANE-2@yahoogroups.com] Im Auftrag von
                              Thomas L. Thompson
                              Gesendet: Montag, 16. August 2010 15:05
                              An: ANE-2@yahoogroups.com
                              Betreff: [ANE-2] SV: deportation and repatriation





                              Although the motifs are variant, one might also think of Esarhaddon's
                              "biography" in which Babylon is punished by the gods with a (the?) flood and
                              the people exiled. After a serendipitous 11 years (reversing a divinely
                              cursed exile of 70 years with the help of cuneiform's wonderful
                              orthography), Esarhaddon is called by the gods to reunite people, gods and
                              king.
                              Thomas

                              Thomas L Thompson
                              Professor emeritus, University of Copenhagen

                              ________________________________________
                              Fra: ANE-2@yahoogroups.com <mailto:ANE-2%40yahoogroups.com>
                              [ANE-2@yahoogroups.com <mailto:ANE-2%40yahoogroups.com> ] På vegne af
                              Thomas L. Thompson [tlt@... <mailto:tlt%40teol.ku.dk> ]
                              Sendt: 16. august 2010 14:42
                              Til: ANE-2@yahoogroups.com <mailto:ANE-2%40yahoogroups.com>
                              Emne: [ANE-2] SV: deportation and repatriation

                              Yes, Assurbanipal II in one "deportation" text (ANET?) refers to bringing
                              the people of a town in Lebanon back to their homes and I believe there are
                              a few comparable texts.
                              Thomas

                              Because of a discussion -- a seminar -- on the Biblical Studies list:

                              Do we have other examples from the ANE of repatriation of deported people,
                              apart from the one in the Old Testament? (this is not a discussion about the
                              historicity of that event--if that had been the case, I would not have
                              brought it up here).

                              I know of repatriation of abducted gods from Babylonian tradition, but of
                              human beings?

                              Niels Peter Lemche

                              ------------------------------------

                              Yahoo! Groups Links

                              http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/





                              [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                            • Lisbeth S. Fried
                              Dear Niels-Peter, This is from my commentary on Ezra-Nehemiah (forthcoming). The Jews were not the only community to return from Babylon to their ancestral
                              Message 14 of 21 , Aug 16, 2010
                              • 0 Attachment
                                Dear Niels-Peter,

                                This is from my commentary on Ezra-Nehemiah (forthcoming).



                                The Jews were not the only community to return from Babylon to
                                their ancestral homeland under the Achaemenids. The 1926-27 excavations at
                                Neirab, Syria, unearthed an archive of clay tablets dating from the reign of
                                Nebuchadnezzar to the early years of Darius I (i.e., from 560 to 520 BCE)
                                which recorded loans of barley and silver. The documents all refer to a
                                people named the Neirabians, i.e., the people who lived in the city where
                                the archive was found. Yet the places where the transactions occurred were
                                in the vicinity of Nippur in Babylon. This was evidently the archive of a
                                community of Syrians which had been exiled to Nippur under Nebuchadnezzar
                                and which had been released to their own city in the beginning of Darius'
                                reign (Eph'al 1978). As with the Jews, they had maintained a community
                                identity in exile in Babylon for four decades, returning to their own city
                                as soon as they were able.





                                Lisbeth S. Fried, Ph.D.

                                Department of Near Eastern Studies

                                and the Frankel Center for Judaic Studies

                                University of Michigan

                                202 S. Thayer -- Room 4111

                                Ann Arbor, MI 48104

                                www.lizfried.com <http://www.lizfried.com/>





                                _____

                                From: ANE-2@yahoogroups.com [mailto:ANE-2@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of
                                Niels Peter Lemche
                                Sent: Monday, August 16, 2010 8:36 AM
                                To: ANE-2@yahoogroups.com
                                Subject: [ANE-2] deportation and repatriation





                                Because of a discussion -- a seminar -- on the Biblical Studies list:

                                Do we have other examples from the ANE of repatriation of deported people,
                                apart from the one in the Old Testament? (this is not a discussion about the
                                historicity of that event--if that had been the case, I would not have
                                brought it up here).

                                I know of repatriation of abducted gods from Babylonian tradition, but of
                                human beings?

                                Niels Peter Lemche





                                [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                              • Niels Peter Lemche
                                and you find evidence of such a return in the archaeological material from the Jerusalem area? Sorry, I have absolutely no confidence in Ezra/Nehemiah as a
                                Message 15 of 21 , Aug 16, 2010
                                • 0 Attachment
                                  and you find evidence of such a return in the archaeological material from the Jerusalem area?

                                  Sorry, I have absolutely no confidence in Ezra/Nehemiah as a historical source.

                                  Niels Peter Lemche



                                  -----Oprindelig meddelelse-----
                                  Fra: ANE-2@yahoogroups.com [mailto:ANE-2@yahoogroups.com] På vegne af Lisbeth S. Fried
                                  Sendt: den 16 augusti 2010 18:59
                                  Til: ANE-2@yahoogroups.com
                                  Emne: RE: [ANE-2] deportation and repatriation

                                  Dear Niels-Peter,

                                  This is from my commentary on Ezra-Nehemiah (forthcoming).



                                  The Jews were not the only community to return from Babylon to
                                  their ancestral homeland under the Achaemenids. The 1926-27 excavations at
                                  Neirab, Syria, unearthed an archive of clay tablets dating from the reign of
                                  Nebuchadnezzar to the early years of Darius I (i.e., from 560 to 520 BCE)
                                  which recorded loans of barley and silver. The documents all refer to a
                                  people named the Neirabians, i.e., the people who lived in the city where
                                  the archive was found. Yet the places where the transactions occurred were
                                  in the vicinity of Nippur in Babylon. This was evidently the archive of a
                                  community of Syrians which had been exiled to Nippur under Nebuchadnezzar
                                  and which had been released to their own city in the beginning of Darius'
                                  reign (Eph'al 1978). As with the Jews, they had maintained a community
                                  identity in exile in Babylon for four decades, returning to their own city
                                  as soon as they were able.





                                  Lisbeth S. Fried, Ph.D.

                                  Department of Near Eastern Studies

                                  and the Frankel Center for Judaic Studies

                                  University of Michigan

                                  202 S. Thayer -- Room 4111

                                  Ann Arbor, MI 48104

                                  www.lizfried.com <http://www.lizfried.com/>





                                  _____

                                  From: ANE-2@yahoogroups.com [mailto:ANE-2@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of
                                  Niels Peter Lemche
                                  Sent: Monday, August 16, 2010 8:36 AM
                                  To: ANE-2@yahoogroups.com
                                  Subject: [ANE-2] deportation and repatriation





                                  Because of a discussion -- a seminar -- on the Biblical Studies list:

                                  Do we have other examples from the ANE of repatriation of deported people,
                                  apart from the one in the Old Testament? (this is not a discussion about the
                                  historicity of that event--if that had been the case, I would not have
                                  brought it up here).

                                  I know of repatriation of abducted gods from Babylonian tradition, but of
                                  human beings?

                                  Niels Peter Lemche





                                  [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]



                                  ------------------------------------

                                  Yahoo! Groups Links
                                • Lisbeth S. Fried
                                  Well, forget the last line of that paragraph then. I do think that an exile and return can be found in the archaeology of Judah and Jerusalem (Faust has a book
                                  Message 16 of 21 , Aug 16, 2010
                                  • 0 Attachment
                                    Well, forget the last line of that paragraph then.

                                    I do think that an exile and return can be found in the archaeology of Judah
                                    and Jerusalem (Faust has a book on the 6th century, forthcoming, which he
                                    has permitted me to read), but I was responding to your query about other
                                    returns.



                                    Liz Fried





                                    _____

                                    From: ANE-2@yahoogroups.com [mailto:ANE-2@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of
                                    Niels Peter Lemche
                                    Sent: Monday, August 16, 2010 1:31 PM
                                    To: ANE-2@yahoogroups.com
                                    Subject: SV: [ANE-2] deportation and repatriation





                                    and you find evidence of such a return in the archaeological material from
                                    the Jerusalem area?

                                    Sorry, I have absolutely no confidence in Ezra/Nehemiah as a historical
                                    source.

                                    Niels Peter Lemche



                                    -----Oprindelig meddelelse-----
                                    Fra: ANE-2@yahoogroups.com <mailto:ANE-2%40yahoogroups.com>
                                    [mailto:ANE-2@yahoogroups.com <mailto:ANE-2%40yahoogroups.com> ] På vegne af
                                    Lisbeth S. Fried
                                    Sendt: den 16 augusti 2010 18:59
                                    Til: ANE-2@yahoogroups.com <mailto:ANE-2%40yahoogroups.com>
                                    Emne: RE: [ANE-2] deportation and repatriation

                                    Dear Niels-Peter,

                                    This is from my commentary on Ezra-Nehemiah (forthcoming).



                                    The Jews were not the only community to return from Babylon to
                                    their ancestral homeland under the Achaemenids. The 1926-27 excavations at
                                    Neirab, Syria, unearthed an archive of clay tablets dating from the reign of
                                    Nebuchadnezzar to the early years of Darius I (i.e., from 560 to 520 BCE)
                                    which recorded loans of barley and silver. The documents all refer to a
                                    people named the Neirabians, i.e., the people who lived in the city where
                                    the archive was found. Yet the places where the transactions occurred were
                                    in the vicinity of Nippur in Babylon. This was evidently the archive of a
                                    community of Syrians which had been exiled to Nippur under Nebuchadnezzar
                                    and which had been released to their own city in the beginning of Darius'
                                    reign (Eph'al 1978). As with the Jews, they had maintained a community
                                    identity in exile in Babylon for four decades, returning to their own city
                                    as soon as they were able.





                                    Lisbeth S. Fried, Ph.D.

                                    Department of Near Eastern Studies

                                    and the Frankel Center for Judaic Studies

                                    University of Michigan

                                    202 S. Thayer -- Room 4111

                                    Ann Arbor, MI 48104

                                    www.lizfried.com <http://www.lizfried.com/>





                                    _____

                                    From: ANE-2@yahoogroups.com <mailto:ANE-2%40yahoogroups.com>
                                    [mailto:ANE-2@yahoogroups.com <mailto:ANE-2%40yahoogroups.com> ] On Behalf
                                    Of
                                    Niels Peter Lemche
                                    Sent: Monday, August 16, 2010 8:36 AM
                                    To: ANE-2@yahoogroups.com <mailto:ANE-2%40yahoogroups.com>
                                    Subject: [ANE-2] deportation and repatriation





                                    Because of a discussion -- a seminar -- on the Biblical Studies list:

                                    Do we have other examples from the ANE of repatriation of deported people,
                                    apart from the one in the Old Testament? (this is not a discussion about the
                                    historicity of that event--if that had been the case, I would not have
                                    brought it up here).

                                    I know of repatriation of abducted gods from Babylonian tradition, but of
                                    human beings?

                                    Niels Peter Lemche





                                    [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]



                                    ------------------------------------

                                    Yahoo! Groups Links








                                    [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                                  • Niels Peter Lemche
                                    Dear Liz, may I suggest that we take this discussion to the biblical studies list where we have as eminar based on Ahn s forthcoming book on the exile. It is
                                    Message 17 of 21 , Aug 16, 2010
                                    • 0 Attachment
                                      Dear Liz,

                                      may I suggest that we take this discussion to the biblical studies list where we have as eminar based on Ahn's forthcoming book on the exile. It is hardly a matter that suits this forum. I only asked for parallels. And sorry to all for my earlier mail. I forgot to check that it did not go to biblical studies.

                                      Niels Peter Lemche



                                      -----Oprindelig meddelelse-----
                                      Fra: ANE-2@yahoogroups.com [mailto:ANE-2@yahoogroups.com] På vegne af Niels Peter Lemche
                                      Sendt: den 16 augusti 2010 19:31
                                      Til: ANE-2@yahoogroups.com
                                      Emne: SV: [ANE-2] deportation and repatriation

                                      and you find evidence of such a return in the archaeological material from the Jerusalem area?

                                      Sorry, I have absolutely no confidence in Ezra/Nehemiah as a historical source.

                                      Niels Peter Lemche



                                      -----Oprindelig meddelelse-----
                                      Fra: ANE-2@yahoogroups.com [mailto:ANE-2@yahoogroups.com] På vegne af Lisbeth S. Fried
                                      Sendt: den 16 augusti 2010 18:59
                                      Til: ANE-2@yahoogroups.com
                                      Emne: RE: [ANE-2] deportation and repatriation

                                      Dear Niels-Peter,

                                      This is from my commentary on Ezra-Nehemiah (forthcoming).



                                      The Jews were not the only community to return from Babylon to
                                      their ancestral homeland under the Achaemenids. The 1926-27 excavations at
                                      Neirab, Syria, unearthed an archive of clay tablets dating from the reign of
                                      Nebuchadnezzar to the early years of Darius I (i.e., from 560 to 520 BCE)
                                      which recorded loans of barley and silver. The documents all refer to a
                                      people named the Neirabians, i.e., the people who lived in the city where
                                      the archive was found. Yet the places where the transactions occurred were
                                      in the vicinity of Nippur in Babylon. This was evidently the archive of a
                                      community of Syrians which had been exiled to Nippur under Nebuchadnezzar
                                      and which had been released to their own city in the beginning of Darius'
                                      reign (Eph'al 1978). As with the Jews, they had maintained a community
                                      identity in exile in Babylon for four decades, returning to their own city
                                      as soon as they were able.





                                      Lisbeth S. Fried, Ph.D.

                                      Department of Near Eastern Studies

                                      and the Frankel Center for Judaic Studies

                                      University of Michigan

                                      202 S. Thayer -- Room 4111

                                      Ann Arbor, MI 48104

                                      www.lizfried.com <http://www.lizfried.com/>





                                      _____

                                      From: ANE-2@yahoogroups.com [mailto:ANE-2@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of
                                      Niels Peter Lemche
                                      Sent: Monday, August 16, 2010 8:36 AM
                                      To: ANE-2@yahoogroups.com
                                      Subject: [ANE-2] deportation and repatriation





                                      Because of a discussion -- a seminar -- on the Biblical Studies list:

                                      Do we have other examples from the ANE of repatriation of deported people,
                                      apart from the one in the Old Testament? (this is not a discussion about the
                                      historicity of that event--if that had been the case, I would not have
                                      brought it up here).

                                      I know of repatriation of abducted gods from Babylonian tradition, but of
                                      human beings?

                                      Niels Peter Lemche





                                      [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]



                                      ------------------------------------

                                      Yahoo! Groups Links





                                      ------------------------------------

                                      Yahoo! Groups Links
                                    • Niels Peter Lemche
                                      As I said to Liz, Take this discussion to where it belongs: Biblical Studies. Discussions about biblical historicity are normally not welcome on this list. And
                                      Message 18 of 21 , Aug 16, 2010
                                      • 0 Attachment
                                        As I said to Liz,

                                        Take this discussion to where it belongs: Biblical Studies. Discussions about biblical historicity are normally not welcome on this list. And you are already involved in the discussion on biblical studies.

                                        Niels Peter Lemche

                                        -----Oprindelig meddelelse-----
                                        Fra: ANE-2@yahoogroups.com [mailto:ANE-2@yahoogroups.com] På vegne af Michael Banyai
                                        Sendt: den 16 augusti 2010 18:29
                                        Til: ANE-2@yahoogroups.com
                                        Emne: AW: [ANE-2] SV: deportation and repatriation

                                        The 70 years of exile, Thomas is speaking about, appear also in the prophecy
                                        of Isaiah 23:15 and 17 about Tyre. This seems to be an important
                                        Mesopotamian topos, first appearing in biblical works following contacts
                                        with Assyria. It may have been a current curse in standard contracts with
                                        Assyria by that time, thus being the real consequence of breaking a contract
                                        closed with Assyria.



                                        Thus is the later prophecy of Jeremiah 29:10, 25:11-12 concerning the 70
                                        year of banishment nothing else than rendering the exact provisions of the
                                        contract between Judah and Babylon, one of its copies being deposed in the
                                        temple of Jerusalem. Of course would the punishment come from Yahweh, since
                                        he is the one to implement the curses of the contract on Judean side. The
                                        attempts to hinder the accession of Jeremiah to the temple are to be seen in
                                        this context. Yahweh, as the one to punish Judah for breaking the contract,
                                        would return his grace to his people after punishing it, as according to the
                                        contract.



                                        My father taught me to read attentively each time the lowercased text in a
                                        contract, for eventually hidden provisions.



                                        Regards,



                                        Michael Bányai

                                        Oberursel



                                        Von: ANE-2@yahoogroups.com [mailto:ANE-2@yahoogroups.com] Im Auftrag von
                                        Thomas L. Thompson
                                        Gesendet: Montag, 16. August 2010 15:05
                                        An: ANE-2@yahoogroups.com
                                        Betreff: [ANE-2] SV: deportation and repatriation





                                        Although the motifs are variant, one might also think of Esarhaddon's
                                        "biography" in which Babylon is punished by the gods with a (the?) flood and
                                        the people exiled. After a serendipitous 11 years (reversing a divinely
                                        cursed exile of 70 years with the help of cuneiform's wonderful
                                        orthography), Esarhaddon is called by the gods to reunite people, gods and
                                        king.
                                        Thomas

                                        Thomas L Thompson
                                        Professor emeritus, University of Copenhagen

                                        ________________________________________
                                        Fra: ANE-2@yahoogroups.com <mailto:ANE-2%40yahoogroups.com>
                                        [ANE-2@yahoogroups.com <mailto:ANE-2%40yahoogroups.com> ] På vegne af
                                        Thomas L. Thompson [tlt@... <mailto:tlt%40teol.ku.dk> ]
                                        Sendt: 16. august 2010 14:42
                                        Til: ANE-2@yahoogroups.com <mailto:ANE-2%40yahoogroups.com>
                                        Emne: [ANE-2] SV: deportation and repatriation

                                        Yes, Assurbanipal II in one "deportation" text (ANET?) refers to bringing
                                        the people of a town in Lebanon back to their homes and I believe there are
                                        a few comparable texts.
                                        Thomas

                                        Because of a discussion -- a seminar -- on the Biblical Studies list:

                                        Do we have other examples from the ANE of repatriation of deported people,
                                        apart from the one in the Old Testament? (this is not a discussion about the
                                        historicity of that event--if that had been the case, I would not have
                                        brought it up here).

                                        I know of repatriation of abducted gods from Babylonian tradition, but of
                                        human beings?

                                        Niels Peter Lemche

                                        ------------------------------------

                                        Yahoo! Groups Links

                                        http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/





                                        [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]



                                        ------------------------------------

                                        Yahoo! Groups Links
                                      • Francesco Brighenti
                                        ... Cf. also the case of the Persian Empire. Foreign workers, called _kurtash_, who were sometimes slaves, sometimes free people working for wages, and
                                        Message 19 of 21 , Aug 17, 2010
                                        • 0 Attachment
                                          --- In ANE-2@yahoogroups.com, "Michael Banyai" <michael.banyai@...> wrote:

                                          > The 70 years of exile, Thomas is speaking about, appear also in
                                          > the prophecy of Isaiah 23:15 and 17 about Tyre. This seems to be
                                          > an important Mesopotamian topos, first appearing in biblical works
                                          > following contacts with Assyria. It may have been a current curse
                                          > in standard contracts with Assyria by that time, thus being the
                                          > real consequence of breaking a contract closed with Assyria.

                                          Cf. also the case of the Persian Empire.

                                          Foreign workers, called _kurtash_, who were sometimes slaves,
                                          sometimes free people working for wages, and sometimes indentured
                                          servants, were resettled by the Persians in different satrapies of
                                          their empire. Other groups of foreig workers were settled in Babylonia by the Persians under the _hatru_ system, by virtue of which a community was allotted an area that it cultivated in family plots on condition of military service and payment of an annual tax.

                                          Apart from the _kurtash_ and _hatru_ systems, the Achaemenids apparently resorted to deportation of entire foreign communities when these broke some kind of 'contract' made with them. This is evinced by the deportation of some (presumably numerically large) Greek communities to Bactria and Sogdiana -- which H.G. Rawlinson has termed as the "Siberia" of the Achaemenian Empire! -- inferred on the basis of the following sources:

                                          * Herodotus (4.204) writes that the inhabitants of the city of Barca
                                          in Cyrenaica were deported by Darius I to a village in Bactria that
                                          was also named Barca.

                                          * Herodotus (6.9) also mentions a threat made by the Persian
                                          commanders to the inhabitants of Miletus at the culmination of the
                                          Ionian Revolt before the battle of Lade (494 B.C.) that their
                                          maidens would be deported to Bactria. This can be taken as a mere
                                          suggestion that the Persians used to threaten their Greek enemies to
                                          deport the population of their cities to the far eastern portions of
                                          their empire, and we aren't told they really did this to the
                                          Milesians; yet, this passage by Herodotus has its importance
                                          inasmuch as it was written a few decades after the Persian Wars.

                                          * Curtius (7.5.28-35) and Strabo (11.11.4) describe the episode of
                                          Alexander's encounter with, and subsequent destruction of, the
                                          alleged descendants of the Branchidae, a clan of Ionian priestly
                                          functionaries attached to the sanctuary of Apollo at Didyma near
                                          Miletus and relocated by the Persians in a settlement
                                          between Bactria and Sogdiana (some scholars think it was half-way
                                          between present-day Balkh and Samarkand). Curtius and Strabo's
                                          common, earlier source is Callisthenes, Alexander's historian. W.W.
                                          Tarn and other historians have dismissed this episode as an invention of Callisthenes', but it is possible that the Branchidae no less than the Barcaeans were deported by the Persians to Bactria-Sogdiana.

                                          * There is another possible example of a historical deportation of
                                          Greeks to Bactria by the Achaemenids: that of the inhabitants of the
                                          city of Kariatas (mentioned in Strabo 11.11.4 as the place where
                                          Callisthenes was arrested; Latin Cariatae), who like the Branchidae
                                          were massacred by Alexander. According to F.L. Holt (_Alexander the
                                          Great and Bactria: The Formation of a Greek Frontier in Central
                                          Asia_, Brill Archive, 1988, p. 73, n. 94), they may have been the
                                          descendants of Greeks from Caria in Asia Minor.

                                          In sum, only the deportation of the Barcaeans to Bactria seems to be
                                          warranted by near-contemporary souces (Herodotus), yet there are
                                          indications (Curtius, Strabo) that other Greek communities were
                                          deported by the Persian to Bactria or Sogdiana. Other such
                                          deportations could have simply escaped the notice of ancient
                                          historians.

                                          Kindest regards,

                                          Francesco Brighenti
                                          Venice, Italy
                                        • Francesco Brighenti
                                          ... OK, this apparently settles the question. I didn t know Egypt is never mentioned in the Mari letters. So, judging from what you write, Meluhha, that is,
                                          Message 20 of 21 , Aug 17, 2010
                                          • 0 Attachment
                                            --- In ANE-2@yahoogroups.com, "Michael" <michael.banyai@...> wrote:

                                            > Dear Francesco,
                                            >
                                            > Your question can be easily answered. Do we have in the
                                            > Mari texts any mentions of Egypt? No.
                                            >
                                            > Then, since any imaginable route connecting Mari trade to
                                            > an African Meluhha, would have necessarily passed by Egypt,
                                            > we can have here no mention of an African Meluhha.

                                            OK, this apparently settles the question. I didn't know Egypt is never
                                            mentioned in the Mari letters.

                                            So, judging from what you write, Meluhha, that is, the coastal areas of the by then defunct Indus Civilization, was somewhat 'remembered' in the Mari letters, i.e. in the time of Hammurabi, some centuries after the end of that South Asian civilization.

                                            In this case, the shift in the location of Meluhha to eastern Africa (as seen, for instance, in the Amarna letters) must have occurred toward or after the end of the Old Babylonian period.

                                            Again thanks! And best regards.

                                            Francesco Brighenti
                                            Venice, Italy
                                          • Rafal Kolinski
                                            Dear Francesco,   if you read French, try:   B. Groeneberg, La golfe arabo-persique, vu de MAri, Florilegium MArianum I, 1992, 69-80.   I am sorry for a
                                            Message 21 of 21 , Aug 31, 2012
                                            • 0 Attachment
                                              Dear Francesco,
                                               
                                              if you read French, try:
                                               
                                              B. Groeneberg, La golfe arabo-persique, vu de MAri, Florilegium MArianum I, 1992, 69-80.
                                               
                                              I am sorry for a late answer but only now I was ble to sort through archivail e-mails
                                               
                                              best regards
                                               
                                              Rafal Kolinski
                                              Institute of Prehistory
                                              Adam Mickiewicz University
                                              Poznan, Poland


                                              ________________________________
                                              From: Francesco Brighenti <frabrig@...>
                                              To: ANE-2@yahoogroups.com
                                              Sent: Wednesday, 28 July 2010, 22:29
                                              Subject: [ANE-2] Mari Letters


                                               


                                              Dear members of the List,

                                              In this paper:

                                              Nicole Boivin & Dorian Q. Fuller, "Shell Middens, Ships and Seeds: Exploring Coastal Subsistence, Maritime Trade and the Dispersal of Domesticates in and Around the Ancient Arabian Peninsula," _Journal of World Prehistory_ 22 (2009), pp. 113-180,

                                              I read (on p. 155):

                                              "Evidence for Harappan trade [with the Persian Gulf and Mesopotamia -- Francesco] continues into the Late Harappan period, as evidenced by both archaeological finds and textual sources like the Mari letters (Carter 2001; Warburton 2007). [...] [T]rade was by this point clearly with the Late Harappan communities of Gujarat, rather than the now disintegrated society of the Indus Valley proper."

                                              The two sources cited by the authors in this passage are:

                                              Carter, R. (2006). Boat remains and maritime trade in the Persian Gulf during the sixth and fifth millennia BC. Antiquity, 80, 52-63.

                                              Warburton, D. A. (2007). What happened in the Near East ca. 2000 BC? In E. H. Seland (Ed.), The Indian Ocean in the Ancient Period: Definite places, translocal exchange. Oxford: BAR International Series 1593.

                                              Can anyone here provide any references to the above mentioned textual evidence for Indo-Mesopotamian trade relations (allegedly) contained in the Mari Letters (c. 1800 BCE)?

                                              Thanks in advance, and best regards.

                                              Francesco Brighenti, Ph.D.
                                              VAIS -- Venetian Academy of Indian Studies
                                              Venice, Italy




                                              [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                                            Your message has been successfully submitted and would be delivered to recipients shortly.