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Re: [ANE-2] Re: The World of Achaemenid Persia: History, Art and Society in Iran and the Ancient Near East

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  • Graham Hagens
    It is not very good, and much evidence is literary, second or third hand.  However most historians of the Achaemenid period concede that there was a Persian
    Message 1 of 21 , May 21 10:54 AM
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      It is not very good, and much evidence is literary, second or third hand. 
      However most historians of the Achaemenid period concede that there was a Persian 'presence'  in the northern Indian sub-continent west of the Indus from the time of Darius. Including Briant (2002: 756): 'The reality of Achaemenid power in the countries on the west bank of the Indus can hardly be doubted.  Archaeology also appears to support those sources which identified Taxila as one of the capitals of Gandhara. 
       
      Most importantly however, the existence of a Persian presence in Gandhara, an important centre of Vedic, Upanishadic and Hindu culture,  would help clarify how ideas were exchanged between East and West during the so called Axial Age.  The mechanism of this process has long been something of a mystery.
       
      Graham Hagens
      Hamilton, Ontario

      --- On Mon, 5/17/10, Clark Whelton <cwhelton@...> wrote:


      From: Clark Whelton <cwhelton@...>
      Subject: Re: [ANE-2] Re: The World of Achaemenid Persia: History, Art and Society in Iran and the Ancient Near East
      To: ANE-2@yahoogroups.com
      Date: Monday, May 17, 2010, 12:35 PM


       




      Subject: [ANE-2] Re: The World of Achaemenid Persia: History, Art and
      Society in Iran and the Ancient Near East

      Graham Hagens wrote:

      >>>>>>>>Thanks for this Liz. I look forward to getting a copy.
      That two century Achaemenid period was arguably one of the most creative in
      the long history of what we like to call civilization.
      In a forthcoming article in the classics journal Mouseion I argue that the
      Achaemenid satrapies in Gandhara played a pivotal role in the emergence of
      western and eastern (Greek, Buddhist, Upanishad, Jain) philosophies.
      Syncretic evidence supports the seldom cited 5th century BCE chronology of
      Siddartha Gautama and major Upanishad teachers suggesting that they like
      Herodotus, Democritus, Isaiah II/III, Nehemiah etc. were all at one time
      subjects of the same empire, and enjoyed similar degress of freedom to
      explore new ideas.

      As noted before on ANE, material evidence of the Persian Empire is missing
      in the archaeological records of Assyria and the Indus, two satrapies cited
      by Herodotus as producers of great wealth for the Persian treasury. What
      material evidence in there in Gandhara of the people who lived and worked
      there under Persian rule?

      Clark Whelton
      New York











      [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
    • Alejandro Mizzoni
      As noted before on ANE, material evidence of the Persian Empire is missing in the archaeological records of Assyria and the Indus, two satrapies cited by
      Message 2 of 21 , May 23 3:56 PM
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        As noted before on ANE, material evidence of the Persian Empire is missing
        in the archaeological records of Assyria and the Indus, two satrapies cited
        by Herodotus as producers of great wealth for the Persian treasury. What
        material evidence in there in Gandhara of the people who lived and worked
        there under Persian rule?

        Clark Whelton
        New York



        Cf. Magee el. al. "The Achaemenid Empire in South Asia and Recent
        Excavations in Akra in Northwest Pakistan", AJA, 109/4, pp. 711-741.
        http://abstractairanica.revues.org/document16052.html

        Alejandro Mizzoni
        Buenos Aires

        2010/5/17, Clark Whelton <cwhelton@...>:
        >
        > Subject: [ANE-2] Re: The World of Achaemenid Persia: History, Art and
        > Society in Iran and the Ancient Near East
        >
        >
        >
        > Graham Hagens wrote:
        >
        >>>>>>>>>Thanks for this Liz. I look forward to getting a copy.
        > That two century Achaemenid period was arguably one of the most creative in
        > the long history of what we like to call civilization.
        > In a forthcoming article in the classics journal Mouseion I argue that the
        > Achaemenid satrapies in Gandhara played a pivotal role in the emergence of
        > western and eastern (Greek, Buddhist, Upanishad, Jain) philosophies.
        > Syncretic evidence supports the seldom cited 5th century BCE chronology of
        > Siddartha Gautama and major Upanishad teachers suggesting that they like
        > Herodotus, Democritus, Isaiah II/III, Nehemiah etc. were all at one time
        > subjects of the same empire, and enjoyed similar degress of freedom to
        > explore new ideas.
        >
        >
        >
        > As noted before on ANE, material evidence of the Persian Empire is missing
        > in the archaeological records of Assyria and the Indus, two satrapies cited
        > by Herodotus as producers of great wealth for the Persian treasury. What
        > material evidence in there in Gandhara of the people who lived and worked
        > there under Persian rule?
        >
        >
        > Clark Whelton
        > New York
        >
        >
      • Lisbeth S. Fried
        Dear Clark, I don t know what you consider to be material evidence. We have inscriptions which yield numerous Persian names overseeing canals, etc. in
        Message 3 of 21 , May 25 8:50 AM
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          Dear Clark,

          I don't know what you consider to be "material evidence." We have
          inscriptions which yield numerous Persian names overseeing canals, etc. in
          Babylon - see the work of Dandamaev. Thousands of contracts and receipts
          from Mesopotamia are dated according to the Persian kings. We now have an
          archive from the satrap of Bactria containing copies of letters to a
          governor of his in a city on the border of present-day Afghanistan dated to
          the years of Artaxerxes (III). The difficulty is that people began to use
          perishable papyri rather than clay tablets, but we have enough anyway to
          confirm the Greek texts.



          Liz



          Lisbeth S. Fried, Ph.D.

          Department of Near Eastern Studies

          and the Frankel Center for Judaic Studies

          University of Michigan

          202 S. Thayer -- Room 4111

          Ann Arbor, MI 48104

          www.lizfried.com <http://www.lizfried.com/>





          _____

          From: ANE-2@yahoogroups.com [mailto:ANE-2@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of
          Graham Hagens
          Sent: Friday, May 21, 2010 1:54 PM
          To: ANE-2@yahoogroups.com
          Subject: Re: [ANE-2] Re: The World of Achaemenid Persia: History, Art and
          Society in Iran and the Ancient Near East





          It is not very good, and much evidence is literary, second or third hand.
          However most historians of the Achaemenid period concede that there was a
          Persian 'presence' in the northern Indian sub-continent west of the Indus
          from the time of Darius. Including Briant (2002: 756): 'The reality of
          Achaemenid power in the countries on the west bank of the Indus can hardly
          be doubted. Archaeology also appears to support those sources which
          identified Taxila as one of the capitals of Gandhara.

          Most importantly however, the existence of a Persian presence in Gandhara,
          an important centre of Vedic, Upanishadic and Hindu culture, would help
          clarify how ideas were exchanged between East and West during the so called
          Axial Age. The mechanism of this process has long been something of a
          mystery.

          Graham Hagens
          Hamilton, Ontario

          --- On Mon, 5/17/10, Clark Whelton <cwhelton@...
          <mailto:cwhelton%40mindspring.com> > wrote:

          From: Clark Whelton <cwhelton@...
          <mailto:cwhelton%40mindspring.com> >
          Subject: Re: [ANE-2] Re: The World of Achaemenid Persia: History, Art and
          Society in Iran and the Ancient Near East
          To: ANE-2@yahoogroups.com <mailto:ANE-2%40yahoogroups.com>
          Date: Monday, May 17, 2010, 12:35 PM



          Subject: [ANE-2] Re: The World of Achaemenid Persia: History, Art and
          Society in Iran and the Ancient Near East

          Graham Hagens wrote:

          >>>>>>>>Thanks for this Liz. I look forward to getting a copy.
          That two century Achaemenid period was arguably one of the most creative in
          the long history of what we like to call civilization.
          In a forthcoming article in the classics journal Mouseion I argue that the
          Achaemenid satrapies in Gandhara played a pivotal role in the emergence of
          western and eastern (Greek, Buddhist, Upanishad, Jain) philosophies.
          Syncretic evidence supports the seldom cited 5th century BCE chronology of
          Siddartha Gautama and major Upanishad teachers suggesting that they like
          Herodotus, Democritus, Isaiah II/III, Nehemiah etc. were all at one time
          subjects of the same empire, and enjoyed similar degress of freedom to
          explore new ideas.

          As noted before on ANE, material evidence of the Persian Empire is missing
          in the archaeological records of Assyria and the Indus, two satrapies cited
          by Herodotus as producers of great wealth for the Persian treasury. What
          material evidence in there in Gandhara of the people who lived and worked
          there under Persian rule?

          Clark Whelton
          New York

          [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]





          [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
        • Trudy Kawami
          The term Axial Age is a bit out-dated and reflects a rather late 19th century mindset. The dating of Zoroaster/Zarathustra/Zardusht is in no way fixed in the
          Message 4 of 21 , May 25 10:54 AM
          • 0 Attachment
            The term Axial Age is a bit out-dated and reflects a rather late 19th
            century mindset. The dating of Zoroaster/Zarathustra/Zardusht is in no
            way fixed in the Achaemenid period, and recent scholarship has argued
            for an even earlier date. Likewise the dating of Siddartha Gautama is
            not secure either. The problem with dating the scriptures related to
            these thinkers is that the extant copies are far later than the presumed
            authors/teachers. The Axial Age is an intellectual construct, not a
            verifiable reality. The development of literacy in South Asia, however,
            is a very different question, but one that is for the most part outside
            the scope of this list.

            Trudy Kawami



            ________________________________

            From: ANE-2@yahoogroups.com [mailto:ANE-2@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of
            Graham Hagens
            Sent: Friday, May 21, 2010 1:54 PM
            To: ANE-2@yahoogroups.com
            Subject: Re: [ANE-2] Re: The World of Achaemenid Persia: History, Art
            and Society in Iran and the Ancient Near East





            It is not very good, and much evidence is literary, second or third
            hand.
            However most historians of the Achaemenid period concede that there was
            a Persian 'presence' in the northern Indian sub-continent west of the
            Indus from the time of Darius. Including Briant (2002: 756): 'The
            reality of Achaemenid power in the countries on the west bank of the
            Indus can hardly be doubted. Archaeology also appears to support those
            sources which identified Taxila as one of the capitals of Gandhara.

            Most importantly however, the existence of a Persian presence in
            Gandhara, an important centre of Vedic, Upanishadic and Hindu culture,
            would help clarify how ideas were exchanged between East and West during
            the so called Axial Age. The mechanism of this process has long been
            something of a mystery.

            Graham Hagens
            Hamilton, Ontario






            [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
          • Clark Whelton
            ... Evidence of material culture, such as pottery, weapons, graves, grave goods, temples, cultic objects, foundation stones, roads, palaces, gates, commercial
            Message 5 of 21 , May 25 1:05 PM
            • 0 Attachment
              Liz Fried wrote:
              >>>>>>>>>I don't know what you consider to be "material evidence."


              Evidence of material culture, such as pottery, weapons, graves, grave goods, temples, cultic objects, foundation stones, roads, palaces, gates, commercial infrastructure, etc.


              >>>>>>We have inscriptions which yield numerous Persian names overseeing canals, etc. in
              >Babylon - see the work of Dandamaev. Thousands of contracts and receipts
              >from Mesopotamia are dated according to the Persian kings. We now have an
              >archive from the satrap of Bactria containing copies of letters to a
              >governor of his in a city on the border of present-day Afghanistan dated to
              >the years of Artaxerxes (III). The difficulty is that people began to use
              >perishable papyri rather than clay tablets, but we have enough anyway to
              >confirm the Greek texts.
              >Liz



              It must have been a very rich prize that lured Alexander so far east. I ask about material culture because I find it hard to accept that there is so little evidence of the people who lived and worked in the Persian satrapy along the Indus. Now I'm wondering what we know about the material culture of Bactria.



              Clark Whelton
              New York





              >
              > _____
              >
              >From: ANE-2@yahoogroups.com [mailto:ANE-2@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of
              >Graham Hagens
              >Sent: Friday, May 21, 2010 1:54 PM
              >To: ANE-2@yahoogroups.com
              >Subject: Re: [ANE-2] Re: The World of Achaemenid Persia: History, Art and
              >Society in Iran and the Ancient Near East
              >
              >
              >
              >
              >
              >It is not very good, and much evidence is literary, second or third hand.
              >However most historians of the Achaemenid period concede that there was a
              >Persian 'presence' in the northern Indian sub-continent west of the Indus
              >from the time of Darius. Including Briant (2002: 756): 'The reality of
              >Achaemenid power in the countries on the west bank of the Indus can hardly
              >be doubted. Archaeology also appears to support those sources which
              >identified Taxila as one of the capitals of Gandhara.
              >
              >Most importantly however, the existence of a Persian presence in Gandhara,
              >an important centre of Vedic, Upanishadic and Hindu culture, would help
              >clarify how ideas were exchanged between East and West during the so called
              >Axial Age. The mechanism of this process has long been something of a
              >mystery.
              >
              >Graham Hagens
              >Hamilton, Ontario
              >
              >--- On Mon, 5/17/10, Clark Whelton <cwhelton@...
              ><mailto:cwhelton%40mindspring.com> > wrote:
              >
              >From: Clark Whelton <cwhelton@...
              ><mailto:cwhelton%40mindspring.com> >
              >Subject: Re: [ANE-2] Re: The World of Achaemenid Persia: History, Art and
              >Society in Iran and the Ancient Near East
              >To: ANE-2@yahoogroups.com <mailto:ANE-2%40yahoogroups.com>
              >Date: Monday, May 17, 2010, 12:35 PM
              >
              >
              >
              >Subject: [ANE-2] Re: The World of Achaemenid Persia: History, Art and
              >Society in Iran and the Ancient Near East
              >
              >Graham Hagens wrote:
              >
              >>>>>>>>>Thanks for this Liz. I look forward to getting a copy.
              >That two century Achaemenid period was arguably one of the most creative in
              >the long history of what we like to call civilization.
              >In a forthcoming article in the classics journal Mouseion I argue that the
              >Achaemenid satrapies in Gandhara played a pivotal role in the emergence of
              >western and eastern (Greek, Buddhist, Upanishad, Jain) philosophies.
              >Syncretic evidence supports the seldom cited 5th century BCE chronology of
              >Siddartha Gautama and major Upanishad teachers suggesting that they like
              >Herodotus, Democritus, Isaiah II/III, Nehemiah etc. were all at one time
              >subjects of the same empire, and enjoyed similar degress of freedom to
              >explore new ideas.
              >
              >As noted before on ANE, material evidence of the Persian Empire is missing
              >in the archaeological records of Assyria and the Indus, two satrapies cited
              >by Herodotus as producers of great wealth for the Persian treasury. What
              >material evidence in there in Gandhara of the people who lived and worked
              >there under Persian rule?
              >
              >Clark Whelton
              >New York
            • Lisbeth S. Fried
              Well, we certainly have evidence in Bactria of the writing material used in the Persian period. Lisbeth S. Fried, Ph.D. www.lizfried.com
              Message 6 of 21 , May 25 8:06 PM
              • 0 Attachment
                Well, we certainly have evidence in Bactria of the writing material used in
                the Persian period.



                Lisbeth S. Fried, Ph.D.

                www.lizfried.com <http://www.lizfried.com/>





                _____

                From: ANE-2@yahoogroups.com [mailto:ANE-2@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of
                Clark Whelton
                Sent: Tuesday, May 25, 2010 4:05 PM
                To: ANE2
                Subject: RE: [ANE-2] Re: The World of Achaemenid Persia: History, Art and
                Society in Iran and the Ancient Near East





                Liz Fried wrote:
                >>>>>>>>>I don't know what you consider to be "material evidence."

                Evidence of material culture, such as pottery, weapons, graves, grave goods,
                temples, cultic objects, foundation stones, roads, palaces, gates,
                commercial infrastructure, etc.

                >>>>>>We have inscriptions which yield numerous Persian names overseeing
                canals, etc. in
                >Babylon - see the work of Dandamaev. Thousands of contracts and receipts
                >from Mesopotamia are dated according to the Persian kings. We now have an
                >archive from the satrap of Bactria containing copies of letters to a
                >governor of his in a city on the border of present-day Afghanistan dated to
                >the years of Artaxerxes (III). The difficulty is that people began to use
                >perishable papyri rather than clay tablets, but we have enough anyway to
                >confirm the Greek texts.
                >Liz

                It must have been a very rich prize that lured Alexander so far east. I ask
                about material culture because I find it hard to accept that there is so
                little evidence of the people who lived and worked in the Persian satrapy
                along the Indus. Now I'm wondering what we know about the material culture
                of Bactria.

                Clark Whelton
                New York

                >
                > _____
                >
                >From: ANE-2@yahoogroups.com <mailto:ANE-2%40yahoogroups.com>
                [mailto:ANE-2@yahoogroups.com <mailto:ANE-2%40yahoogroups.com> ] On Behalf
                Of
                >Graham Hagens
                >Sent: Friday, May 21, 2010 1:54 PM
                >To: ANE-2@yahoogroups.com <mailto:ANE-2%40yahoogroups.com>
                >Subject: Re: [ANE-2] Re: The World of Achaemenid Persia: History, Art and
                >Society in Iran and the Ancient Near East
                >
                >
                >
                >
                >
                >It is not very good, and much evidence is literary, second or third hand.
                >However most historians of the Achaemenid period concede that there was a
                >Persian 'presence' in the northern Indian sub-continent west of the Indus
                >from the time of Darius. Including Briant (2002: 756): 'The reality of
                >Achaemenid power in the countries on the west bank of the Indus can hardly
                >be doubted. Archaeology also appears to support those sources which
                >identified Taxila as one of the capitals of Gandhara.
                >
                >Most importantly however, the existence of a Persian presence in Gandhara,
                >an important centre of Vedic, Upanishadic and Hindu culture, would help
                >clarify how ideas were exchanged between East and West during the so called
                >Axial Age. The mechanism of this process has long been something of a
                >mystery.
                >
                >Graham Hagens
                >Hamilton, Ontario
                >
                >--- On Mon, 5/17/10, Clark Whelton <cwhelton@...
                <mailto:cwhelton%40mindspring.com>
                ><mailto:cwhelton%40mindspring.com> > wrote:
                >
                >From: Clark Whelton <cwhelton@...
                <mailto:cwhelton%40mindspring.com>
                ><mailto:cwhelton%40mindspring.com> >
                >Subject: Re: [ANE-2] Re: The World of Achaemenid Persia: History, Art and
                >Society in Iran and the Ancient Near East
                >To: ANE-2@yahoogroups.com <mailto:ANE-2%40yahoogroups.com>
                <mailto:ANE-2%40yahoogroups.com>
                >Date: Monday, May 17, 2010, 12:35 PM
                >
                >
                >
                >Subject: [ANE-2] Re: The World of Achaemenid Persia: History, Art and
                >Society in Iran and the Ancient Near East
                >
                >Graham Hagens wrote:
                >
                >>>>>>>>>Thanks for this Liz. I look forward to getting a copy.
                >That two century Achaemenid period was arguably one of the most creative in

                >the long history of what we like to call civilization.
                >In a forthcoming article in the classics journal Mouseion I argue that the
                >Achaemenid satrapies in Gandhara played a pivotal role in the emergence of
                >western and eastern (Greek, Buddhist, Upanishad, Jain) philosophies.
                >Syncretic evidence supports the seldom cited 5th century BCE chronology of
                >Siddartha Gautama and major Upanishad teachers suggesting that they like
                >Herodotus, Democritus, Isaiah II/III, Nehemiah etc. were all at one time
                >subjects of the same empire, and enjoyed similar degress of freedom to
                >explore new ideas.
                >
                >As noted before on ANE, material evidence of the Persian Empire is missing
                >in the archaeological records of Assyria and the Indus, two satrapies cited

                >by Herodotus as producers of great wealth for the Persian treasury. What
                >material evidence in there in Gandhara of the people who lived and worked
                >there under Persian rule?
                >
                >Clark Whelton
                >New York





                [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
              • Trudy Kawami
                A number of political factors can influence the amount of modern information we have from an area. Extensive post-WW II archaeological work in Turkey, Iraq &
                Message 7 of 21 , May 28 9:15 AM
                • 0 Attachment
                  A number of political factors can influence the amount of modern
                  information we have from an area. Extensive post-WW II archaeological
                  work in Turkey, Iraq & Iran was facilitated by positive relations
                  between the governments of those countries and European & American
                  governments. The Soviet Union actively discouraged non-soviet research
                  in Central Asia. Thus we have lots of information from some regions &
                  virtually none from others. In addition there were border regions that
                  none of the countries wanted "explored" for any reason. The fall of the
                  Soviet Union opened up Central Asia & its Alexander-conquered (or
                  visited) regions. But before long the turmoil in Afghanistan, the
                  post-9/11 security concerns, and the Great Recession have all effected
                  the extent of research & publication.

                  In addition, "Alexander's Asia" was rich because it was a trans-shipment
                  juncture between Han China, South Asia & the West (whatever that can
                  mean). It was not necessarily a production center. No one questions the
                  reality of the Silk Route, but there is no roadsign saying "Xinjiang
                  Next Exit." Not all cultures were sedentary & urban & Mesopotamia is
                  not a model that fits all.

                  Trudy Kawami



                  ________________________________

                  From: ANE-2@yahoogroups.com [mailto:ANE-2@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of
                  Clark Whelton
                  Sent: Tuesday, May 25, 2010 4:05 PM
                  To: ANE2
                  Subject: RE: [ANE-2] Re: The World of Achaemenid Persia: History, Art
                  and Society in Iran and the Ancient Near East





                  Liz Fried wrote:
                  >>>>>>>>>I don't know what you consider to be "material evidence."

                  Evidence of material culture, such as pottery, weapons, graves, grave
                  goods, temples, cultic objects, foundation stones, roads, palaces,
                  gates, commercial infrastructure, etc.

                  It must have been a very rich prize that lured Alexander so far east. I
                  ask about material culture because I find it hard to accept that there
                  is so little evidence of the people who lived and worked in the Persian
                  satrapy along the Indus. Now I'm wondering what we know about the
                  material culture of Bactria.

                  Clark Whelton
                  New York




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                • Lisbeth S. Fried
                  Dear Trudy, You re points are well taken. Dear Clark, I d also like to point out that the letters from Bactria describe a way of life consistent with the way
                  Message 8 of 21 , May 28 9:58 AM
                  • 0 Attachment
                    Dear Trudy,

                    You're points are well taken.



                    Dear Clark,

                    I'd also like to point out that the letters from Bactria describe a way of
                    life consistent with the way of life described in the Arsames letters and
                    the Elephantine papyri, in the Achaemenid period. They testify to the
                    existence of pottery, weapons, buildings, wagons, i.e., a normal life during
                    the reign of Artaxerxes (III), even if we can't identify these objects
                    archaeologically.

                    As for the chronology of the kings, these are available from their own
                    inscriptions. If you think that the Achaemenid kings are really the Assyrian
                    or Babylonian kings, then I suggest reading the Babylonian Chronicles and
                    the Nabonidus inscriptions which testify to the fact that the Persians
                    conquered Babylon and replaced the Babylonian kings with their own, the
                    Cyrus Cylinder, as well as the Behistun inscription, etc. The Achaemenid
                    kings are not the Assyrian kings with different names (in spite of Ezra
                    6:22).



                    All the best,

                    Shabbat shalom.



                    Liz





                    _____

                    From: ANE-2@yahoogroups.com [mailto:ANE-2@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of
                    Trudy Kawami
                    Sent: Friday, May 28, 2010 12:16 PM
                    To: ANE-2@yahoogroups.com
                    Subject: [ANE-2] Re: The World of Achaemenid Persia





                    A number of political factors can influence the amount of modern
                    information we have from an area. Extensive post-WW II archaeological
                    work in Turkey, Iraq & Iran was facilitated by positive relations
                    between the governments of those countries and European & American
                    governments. The Soviet Union actively discouraged non-soviet research
                    in Central Asia. Thus we have lots of information from some regions &
                    virtually none from others. In addition there were border regions that
                    none of the countries wanted "explored" for any reason. The fall of the
                    Soviet Union opened up Central Asia & its Alexander-conquered (or
                    visited) regions. But before long the turmoil in Afghanistan, the
                    post-9/11 security concerns, and the Great Recession have all effected
                    the extent of research & publication.

                    In addition, "Alexander's Asia" was rich because it was a trans-shipment
                    juncture between Han China, South Asia & the West (whatever that can
                    mean). It was not necessarily a production center. No one questions the
                    reality of the Silk Route, but there is no roadsign saying "Xinjiang
                    Next Exit." Not all cultures were sedentary & urban & Mesopotamia is
                    not a model that fits all.

                    Trudy Kawami

                    ________________________________

                    From: ANE-2@yahoogroups.com <mailto:ANE-2%40yahoogroups.com>
                    [mailto:ANE-2@yahoogroups.com <mailto:ANE-2%40yahoogroups.com> ] On Behalf
                    Of
                    Clark Whelton
                    Sent: Tuesday, May 25, 2010 4:05 PM
                    To: ANE2
                    Subject: RE: [ANE-2] Re: The World of Achaemenid Persia: History, Art
                    and Society in Iran and the Ancient Near East

                    Liz Fried wrote:
                    >>>>>>>>>I don't know what you consider to be "material evidence."

                    Evidence of material culture, such as pottery, weapons, graves, grave
                    goods, temples, cultic objects, foundation stones, roads, palaces,
                    gates, commercial infrastructure, etc.

                    It must have been a very rich prize that lured Alexander so far east. I
                    ask about material culture because I find it hard to accept that there
                    is so little evidence of the people who lived and worked in the Persian
                    satrapy along the Indus. Now I'm wondering what we know about the
                    material culture of Bactria.

                    Clark Whelton
                    New York

                    ________________________________

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                  • Charles E. Jones
                    Just to add some clarity to this murky matter. The publication of these documents by Joseph Naveh and Shaul Shaked, Ancient Aramaic Documents from Bactria,
                    Message 9 of 21 , May 28 10:59 AM
                    • 0 Attachment
                      Just to add some clarity to this murky matter.

                      The publication of these documents by Joseph Naveh and Shaul
                      Shaked, Ancient Aramaic Documents from Bactria, 1-874780-74-9,
                      listed on the publishers website as having appeared in 2005
                      (http://www.khalili.org/research-ic-aramaic.html), has not
                      actually appeared.

                      Shaked's 2003 lectures at the College de France did appear in
                      the slim volume Le satrape de Bactriane et son gouverneur.
                      Documents araméens du IVe s. avant notre ère. Conférences
                      données au Collège de France, 14 et 21 mai 2003, "Persika" 4,
                      de Boccard, 2004.

                      For the fragments of Elamite administrative documents of
                      Achaemenid date excavated at Old Kandahar, see Svend Helms,
                      Excavations at Old Kandahar in Afghanistan 1976-78, vol. II:
                      Stratigraphy, pottery, and other finds (BAR International
                      Series 686 = Society for South Asian Studies Monograph 2).

                      -Chuck Jones-
                      ISAW - NYU
                    • George F Somsel
                      If you are referencing the classes of objects which you mention as indicating the way of life described in the Arsames letters then surely this would not be
                      Message 10 of 21 , May 28 9:37 PM
                      • 0 Attachment
                        If you are referencing the classes of objects which you mention as indicating "the way of life described in the Arsames letters" then surely this would not be different for virtually any society of the time or, for that matter, even today if one substitutes modern equivalents.
                         george
                        gfsomsel


                        … search for truth, hear truth,
                        learn truth, love truth, speak the truth, hold the truth,
                        defend the truth till death.


                        - Jan Hus
                        _________




                        ________________________________
                        From: Lisbeth S. Fried <lizfried@...>
                        To: ANE-2@yahoogroups.com
                        Sent: Fri, May 28, 2010 9:58:54 AM
                        Subject: RE: [ANE-2] Re: The World of Achaemenid Persia

                         
                        Dear Trudy,

                        You're points are well taken.

                        Dear Clark,

                        I'd also like to point out that the letters from Bactria describe a way of
                        life consistent with the way of life described in the Arsames letters and
                        the Elephantine papyri, in the Achaemenid period. They testify to the
                        existence of pottery, weapons, buildings, wagons, i.e., a normal life during
                        the reign of Artaxerxes (III), even if we can't identify these objects
                        archaeologically.

                        As for the chronology of the kings, these are available from their own
                        inscriptions. If you think that the Achaemenid kings are really the Assyrian
                        or Babylonian kings, then I suggest reading the Babylonian Chronicles and
                        the Nabonidus inscriptions which testify to the fact that the Persians
                        conquered Babylon and replaced the Babylonian kings with their own, the
                        Cyrus Cylinder, as well as the Behistun inscription, etc. The Achaemenid
                        kings are not the Assyrian kings with different names (in spite of Ezra
                        6:22).

                        All the best,

                        Shabbat shalom.

                        Liz

                        _____

                        From: ANE-2@yahoogroups.com [mailto:ANE-2@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of
                        Trudy Kawami
                        Sent: Friday, May 28, 2010 12:16 PM
                        To: ANE-2@yahoogroups.com
                        Subject: [ANE-2] Re: The World of Achaemenid Persia

                        A number of political factors can influence the amount of modern
                        information we have from an area. Extensive post-WW II archaeological
                        work in Turkey, Iraq & Iran was facilitated by positive relations
                        between the governments of those countries and European & American
                        governments. The Soviet Union actively discouraged non-soviet research
                        in Central Asia. Thus we have lots of information from some regions &
                        virtually none from others. In addition there were border regions that
                        none of the countries wanted "explored" for any reason. The fall of the
                        Soviet Union opened up Central Asia & its Alexander-conquered (or
                        visited) regions. But before long the turmoil in Afghanistan, the
                        post-9/11 security concerns, and the Great Recession have all effected
                        the extent of research & publication.

                        In addition, "Alexander's Asia" was rich because it was a trans-shipment
                        juncture between Han China, South Asia & the West (whatever that can
                        mean). It was not necessarily a production center. No one questions the
                        reality of the Silk Route, but there is no roadsign saying "Xinjiang
                        Next Exit." Not all cultures were sedentary & urban & Mesopotamia is
                        not a model that fits all.

                        Trudy Kawami

                        ________________________________

                        From: ANE-2@yahoogroups.com <mailto:ANE-2%40yahoogroups.com>
                        [mailto:ANE-2@yahoogroups.com <mailto:ANE-2%40yahoogroups.com> ] On Behalf
                        Of
                        Clark Whelton
                        Sent: Tuesday, May 25, 2010 4:05 PM
                        To: ANE2
                        Subject: RE: [ANE-2] Re: The World of Achaemenid Persia: History, Art
                        and Society in Iran and the Ancient Near East

                        Liz Fried wrote:
                        >>>>>>>>>I don't know what you consider to be "material evidence."

                        Evidence of material culture, such as pottery, weapons, graves, grave
                        goods, temples, cultic objects, foundation stones, roads, palaces,
                        gates, commercial infrastructure, etc.

                        It must have been a very rich prize that lured Alexander so far east. I
                        ask about material culture because I find it hard to accept that there
                        is so little evidence of the people who lived and worked in the Persian
                        satrapy along the Indus. Now I'm wondering what we know about the
                        material culture of Bactria.

                        Clark Whelton
                        New York

                        ________________________________

                        Get great advice about dogs and cats. Visit the Dog & Cat Answers
                        Center.
                        <http://us.ard.yahoo.com/SIG=15o64adm0/M=493064.13814537.14041040.108355
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                      • Lisbeth S. Fried
                        Yes, of course. Lisbeth S. Fried, Ph.D. Ann Arbor, MI 48104 www.lizfried.com _____ From: ANE-2@yahoogroups.com
                        Message 11 of 21 , May 29 4:49 AM
                        • 0 Attachment
                          Yes, of course.



                          Lisbeth S. Fried, Ph.D.

                          Ann Arbor, MI 48104

                          www.lizfried.com <http://www.lizfried.com/>





                          _____

                          From: ANE-2@yahoogroups.com [mailto:ANE-2@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of
                          George F Somsel
                          Sent: Saturday, May 29, 2010 12:37 AM
                          To: ANE-2@yahoogroups.com
                          Subject: Re: [ANE-2] Re: The World of Achaemenid Persia





                          If you are referencing the classes of objects which you mention as
                          indicating "the way of life described in the Arsames letters" then surely
                          this would not be different for virtually any society of the time or, for
                          that matter, even today if one substitutes modern equivalents.
                          george
                          gfsomsel

                          . search for truth, hear truth,
                          learn truth, love truth, speak the truth, hold the truth,
                          defend the truth till death.

                          - Jan Hus
                          _________

                          ________________________________
                          From: Lisbeth S. Fried <lizfried@... <mailto:lizfried%40umich.edu> >
                          To: ANE-2@yahoogroups.com <mailto:ANE-2%40yahoogroups.com>
                          Sent: Fri, May 28, 2010 9:58:54 AM
                          Subject: RE: [ANE-2] Re: The World of Achaemenid Persia


                          Dear Trudy,

                          You're points are well taken.

                          Dear Clark,

                          I'd also like to point out that the letters from Bactria describe a way of
                          life consistent with the way of life described in the Arsames letters and
                          the Elephantine papyri, in the Achaemenid period. They testify to the
                          existence of pottery, weapons, buildings, wagons, i.e., a normal life during
                          the reign of Artaxerxes (III), even if we can't identify these objects
                          archaeologically.

                          As for the chronology of the kings, these are available from their own
                          inscriptions. If you think that the Achaemenid kings are really the Assyrian
                          or Babylonian kings, then I suggest reading the Babylonian Chronicles and
                          the Nabonidus inscriptions which testify to the fact that the Persians
                          conquered Babylon and replaced the Babylonian kings with their own, the
                          Cyrus Cylinder, as well as the Behistun inscription, etc. The Achaemenid
                          kings are not the Assyrian kings with different names (in spite of Ezra
                          6:22).

                          All the best,

                          Shabbat shalom.

                          Liz

                          _____

                          From: ANE-2@yahoogroups.com <mailto:ANE-2%40yahoogroups.com>
                          [mailto:ANE-2@yahoogroups.com <mailto:ANE-2%40yahoogroups.com> ] On Behalf
                          Of
                          Trudy Kawami
                          Sent: Friday, May 28, 2010 12:16 PM
                          To: ANE-2@yahoogroups.com <mailto:ANE-2%40yahoogroups.com>
                          Subject: [ANE-2] Re: The World of Achaemenid Persia

                          A number of political factors can influence the amount of modern
                          information we have from an area. Extensive post-WW II archaeological
                          work in Turkey, Iraq & Iran was facilitated by positive relations
                          between the governments of those countries and European & American
                          governments. The Soviet Union actively discouraged non-soviet research
                          in Central Asia. Thus we have lots of information from some regions &
                          virtually none from others. In addition there were border regions that
                          none of the countries wanted "explored" for any reason. The fall of the
                          Soviet Union opened up Central Asia & its Alexander-conquered (or
                          visited) regions. But before long the turmoil in Afghanistan, the
                          post-9/11 security concerns, and the Great Recession have all effected
                          the extent of research & publication.

                          In addition, "Alexander's Asia" was rich because it was a trans-shipment
                          juncture between Han China, South Asia & the West (whatever that can
                          mean). It was not necessarily a production center. No one questions the
                          reality of the Silk Route, but there is no roadsign saying "Xinjiang
                          Next Exit." Not all cultures were sedentary & urban & Mesopotamia is
                          not a model that fits all.

                          Trudy Kawami

                          ________________________________

                          From: ANE-2@yahoogroups.com <mailto:ANE-2%40yahoogroups.com>
                          <mailto:ANE-2%40yahoogroups.com>
                          [mailto:ANE-2@yahoogroups.com <mailto:ANE-2%40yahoogroups.com>
                          <mailto:ANE-2%40yahoogroups.com> ] On Behalf
                          Of
                          Clark Whelton
                          Sent: Tuesday, May 25, 2010 4:05 PM
                          To: ANE2
                          Subject: RE: [ANE-2] Re: The World of Achaemenid Persia: History, Art
                          and Society in Iran and the Ancient Near East

                          Liz Fried wrote:
                          >>>>>>>>>I don't know what you consider to be "material evidence."

                          Evidence of material culture, such as pottery, weapons, graves, grave
                          goods, temples, cultic objects, foundation stones, roads, palaces,
                          gates, commercial infrastructure, etc.

                          It must have been a very rich prize that lured Alexander so far east. I
                          ask about material culture because I find it hard to accept that there
                          is so little evidence of the people who lived and worked in the Persian
                          satrapy along the Indus. Now I'm wondering what we know about the
                          material culture of Bactria.

                          Clark Whelton
                          New York

                          ________________________________

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