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Achaemenid period creativity

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  • Brian Colless
    ... Yes, it has been called the axial period . I had never thought of the Akhaemenid connection for the Indian movements, only the question whether
    Message 1 of 16 , May 20, 2010
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      On 17/05/2010, at 1:54 AM, Graham Hagens wrote:

      > That two century Achaemenid period was arguably one of the most
      > creative in the long history of what we like to call civilization.
      >
      Yes, it has been called 'the axial period'.

      I had never thought of the Akhaemenid connection for the Indian
      movements, only the question whether Zarathushtra's protector Kavi
      Vishtaspa was the same ruler as the father of Darius the Great (Greek
      Hystaspes).

      I always thought the Buddha belonged around 500, but I did not think
      of an Iranian connection.

      I am wondering now whether this is when the Indian scripts begin,
      based on the Aramaic alphabet. Is this something you considered?

      Brian Colless

      Massey Univrsity, NZ

      > In a forthcoming article in the classics journal Mouseion I argue
      > that the Achaemenid satrapies in Gandhara played a pivotal role in
      > the emergence of western and eastern (Greek, Buddhist, Upanishad,
      > Jain) philosophies. Syncretic evidence supports the seldom cited 5th
      > century BCE chronology of Siddartha Gautama and major Upanishad
      > teachers suggesting that they like Herodotus, Democritus, Isaiah II/
      > III, Nehemiah etc. were all at one time subjects of the same empire,
      > and enjoyed similar degress of freedom to explore new ideas.
      >
      > Graham Hagens
      > Hamilton
      >


      [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
    • Lisbeth S. Fried
      A wonderful novel which got me started on my current adventure is Gore Vidal s Creation. The protagonist in it grows up in the harem with Xerxes, his best
      Message 2 of 16 , May 20, 2010
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        A wonderful novel which got me started on my current adventure is Gore
        Vidal's Creation.

        The protagonist in it grows up in the harem with Xerxes, his best friend in
        boyhood and beyond. As an adult he goes around the known world having
        fascinating conversations with the Buddha, Confucius, Pythagoras, and many
        others on the origin of the universe, the meaning of life, etc. I highly
        recommend it.



        Liz Fried

        Ann Arbor



        _____

        From: ANE-2@yahoogroups.com [mailto:ANE-2@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of
        Brian Colless
        Sent: Thursday, May 20, 2010 8:39 AM
        To: ANE-2@yahoogroups.com
        Subject: [ANE-2] Achaemenid period creativity





        On 17/05/2010, at 1:54 AM, Graham Hagens wrote:

        > That two century Achaemenid period was arguably one of the most
        > creative in the long history of what we like to call civilization.
        >
        Yes, it has been called 'the axial period'.

        I had never thought of the Akhaemenid connection for the Indian
        movements, only the question whether Zarathushtra's protector Kavi
        Vishtaspa was the same ruler as the father of Darius the Great (Greek
        Hystaspes).

        I always thought the Buddha belonged around 500, but I did not think
        of an Iranian connection.

        I am wondering now whether this is when the Indian scripts begin,
        based on the Aramaic alphabet. Is this something you considered?

        Brian Colless

        Massey Univrsity, NZ

        > In a forthcoming article in the classics journal Mouseion I argue
        > that the Achaemenid satrapies in Gandhara played a pivotal role in
        > the emergence of western and eastern (Greek, Buddhist, Upanishad,
        > Jain) philosophies. Syncretic evidence supports the seldom cited 5th
        > century BCE chronology of Siddartha Gautama and major Upanishad
        > teachers suggesting that they like Herodotus, Democritus, Isaiah II/
        > III, Nehemiah etc. were all at one time subjects of the same empire,
        > and enjoyed similar degress of freedom to explore new ideas.
        >
        > Graham Hagens
        > Hamilton
        >

        [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]





        [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
      • Brian Colless
        Yes, I have had it sitting here for years waiting for its moment to arrive. Brian Colless Massey U, NZ ... [Non-text portions of this message have been
        Message 3 of 16 , May 21, 2010
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          Yes, I have had it sitting here for years waiting for its moment to
          arrive.

          Brian Colless

          Massey U, NZ

          On 21/05/2010, at 3:32 AM, Lisbeth S. Fried wrote:

          > A wonderful novel which got me started on my current adventure is Gore
          > Vidal's Creation.
          >
          > The protagonist in it grows up in the harem with Xerxes, his best
          > friend in
          > boyhood and beyond. As an adult he goes around the known world having
          > fascinating conversations with the Buddha, Confucius, Pythagoras,
          > and many
          > others on the origin of the universe, the meaning of life, etc. I
          > highly
          > recommend it.
          >
          > Liz Fried
          >
          > Ann Arbor
          >
          > _____
          >
          > From: ANE-2@yahoogroups.com [mailto:ANE-2@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf
          > Of
          > Brian Colless
          > Sent: Thursday, May 20, 2010 8:39 AM
          > To: ANE-2@yahoogroups.com
          > Subject: [ANE-2] Achaemenid period creativity
          >
          > On 17/05/2010, at 1:54 AM, Graham Hagens wrote:
          >
          > > That two century Achaemenid period was arguably one of the most
          > > creative in the long history of what we like to call civilization.
          > >
          > Yes, it has been called 'the axial period'.
          >
          > I had never thought of the Akhaemenid connection for the Indian
          > movements, only the question whether Zarathushtra's protector Kavi
          > Vishtaspa was the same ruler as the father of Darius the Great (Greek
          > Hystaspes).
          >
          > I always thought the Buddha belonged around 500, but I did not think
          > of an Iranian connection.
          >
          > I am wondering now whether this is when the Indian scripts begin,
          > based on the Aramaic alphabet. Is this something you considered?
          >
          > Brian Colless
          >
          > Massey Univrsity, NZ
          >
          > > In a forthcoming article in the classics journal Mouseion I argue
          > > that the Achaemenid satrapies in Gandhara played a pivotal role in
          > > the emergence of western and eastern (Greek, Buddhist, Upanishad,
          > > Jain) philosophies. Syncretic evidence supports the seldom cited 5th
          > > century BCE chronology of Siddartha Gautama and major Upanishad
          > > teachers suggesting that they like Herodotus, Democritus, Isaiah II/
          > > III, Nehemiah etc. were all at one time subjects of the same empire,
          > > and enjoyed similar degress of freedom to explore new ideas.
          > >
          > > Graham Hagens
          > > Hamilton
          > >
          >
          > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
          >
          > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
          >
          >
          >



          [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
        • Graham Hagens
          Brian - now that I know, thanks to New Scientist that you can wiggle your own ears I have more respect than ever for your contributions to this list.   The
          Message 4 of 16 , May 21, 2010
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            Brian - now that I know, thanks to New Scientist that you can wiggle your own ears I have more respect than ever for your contributions to this list.
             
            The estimated birthdate of  the Buddha maintained by various Buddhist communities range over 177 years from 624 to 447BCE.  Although the 563 is most commonly, there are good arguments that he lived between 463-383BCE by which time the Achaemenid satrapies in Gandhara (eponymous  Kandahar) had been in existence for several decades. There is also a body of (admittedly anecdotal) evidence to suggest that Siddartha Gautama spent some years practising meditation prior to his Enlightenment in what is today southern  Afghanistan. 
             
            According to Diringer the Karoshthi script had arrived in north western India by the 5th century - and the oldest extant Buddhist Gandhari canon  is written that script,  However most Buddhist traditions were oral - and not put to writing, in Brahmi, until the time of Ashoka, 3rd century.
             
            Graham Hagens
            Hamilton   

            --- On Thu, 5/20/10, Brian Colless <briancolless@...> wrote:


            From: Brian Colless <briancolless@...>
            Subject: [ANE-2] Achaemenid period creativity
            To: ANE-2@yahoogroups.com
            Date: Thursday, May 20, 2010, 8:39 AM


             



            On 17/05/2010, at 1:54 AM, Graham Hagens wrote:

            > That two century Achaemenid period was arguably one of the most
            > creative in the long history of what we like to call civilization.
            >
            Yes, it has been called 'the axial period'.

            I had never thought of the Akhaemenid connection for the Indian
            movements, only the question whether Zarathushtra's protector Kavi
            Vishtaspa was the same ruler as the father of Darius the Great (Greek
            Hystaspes).

            I always thought the Buddha belonged around 500, but I did not think
            of an Iranian connection.

            I am wondering now whether this is when the Indian scripts begin,
            based on the Aramaic alphabet. Is this something you considered?

            Brian Colless

            Massey Univrsity, NZ

            > In a forthcoming article in the classics journal Mouseion I argue
            > that the Achaemenid satrapies in Gandhara played a pivotal role in
            > the emergence of western and eastern (Greek, Buddhist, Upanishad,
            > Jain) philosophies. Syncretic evidence supports the seldom cited 5th
            > century BCE chronology of Siddartha Gautama and major Upanishad
            > teachers suggesting that they like Herodotus, Democritus, Isaiah II/
            > III, Nehemiah etc. were all at one time subjects of the same empire,
            > and enjoyed similar degress of freedom to explore new ideas.
            >
            > Graham Hagens
            > Hamilton
            >

            [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]











            [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
          • Graham Hagens
            Hi Brian - I submitted this to the list a few days ago, but for some reason it has not yet shown up.   Since I see no reason why it should be rejected I am
            Message 5 of 16 , May 25, 2010
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              Hi Brian - I submitted this to the list a few days ago, but for some reason it has not yet shown up.
               
              Since I see no reason why it should be rejected I am re-submitting.
               
              Graham Hagens

              --- On Fri, 5/21/10, Graham Hagens <rgrahamh@...> wrote:


              From: Graham Hagens <rgrahamh@...>
              Subject: Re: [ANE-2] Achaemenid period creativity
              To: ANE-2@yahoogroups.com
              Date: Friday, May 21, 2010, 11:12 AM







              Brian - now that I know, thanks to New Scientist that you can wiggle your own ears I have more respect than ever for your contributions to this list.
               
              The estimated birthdate of  the Buddha maintained by various Buddhist communities range over 177 years from 624 to 447BCE.  Although the 563 is most commonly, there are good arguments that he lived between 463-383BCE by which time the Achaemenid satrapies in Gandhara (eponymous  Kandahar) had been in existence for several decades. There is also a body of (admittedly anecdotal) evidence to suggest that Siddartha Gautama spent some years practising meditation prior to his Enlightenment in what is today southern  Afghanistan. 
               
              According to Diringer the Karoshthi script had arrived in north western India by the 5th century - and the oldest extant Buddhist Gandhari canon  is written that script,  However most Buddhist traditions were oral - and not put to writing, in Brahmi, until the time of Ashoka, 3rd century.
               
              Graham Hagens
              Hamilton   

              --- On Thu, 5/20/10, Brian Colless <briancolless@...> wrote:


              From: Brian Colless <briancolless@...>
              Subject: [ANE-2] Achaemenid period creativity
              To: ANE-2@yahoogroups.com
              Date: Thursday, May 20, 2010, 8:39 AM


               



              On 17/05/2010, at 1:54 AM, Graham Hagens wrote:

              > That two century Achaemenid period was arguably one of the most
              > creative in the long history of what we like to call civilization.
              >
              Yes, it has been called 'the axial period'.

              I had never thought of the Akhaemenid connection for the Indian
              movements, only the question whether Zarathushtra's protector Kavi
              Vishtaspa was the same ruler as the father of Darius the Great (Greek
              Hystaspes).

              I always thought the Buddha belonged around 500, but I did not think
              of an Iranian connection.

              I am wondering now whether this is when the Indian scripts begin,
              based on the Aramaic alphabet. Is this something you considered?

              Brian Colless

              Massey Univrsity, NZ

              > In a forthcoming article in the classics journal Mouseion I argue
              > that the Achaemenid satrapies in Gandhara played a pivotal role in
              > the emergence of western and eastern (Greek, Buddhist, Upanishad,
              > Jain) philosophies. Syncretic evidence supports the seldom cited 5th
              > century BCE chronology of Siddartha Gautama and major Upanishad
              > teachers suggesting that they like Herodotus, Democritus, Isaiah II/
              > III, Nehemiah etc. were all at one time subjects of the same empire,
              > and enjoyed similar degress of freedom to explore new ideas.
              >
              > Graham Hagens
              > Hamilton
              >

              [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]












              [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
            • Peter T. Daniels
              Trudy suggested that writing in South Asia is beyond our purview, but I really can t let this stand -- Diringer was written more than 60 years ago, and there
              Message 6 of 16 , May 25, 2010
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                Trudy suggested that writing in South Asia is beyond our purview, but I really can't let this stand -- Diringer was written more than 60 years ago, and there have been many discoveries of Kharosthi manuscripts since then (studied mostly by Richard Salomon of the University of Washington, and detailed paleography by his student Andrew Glass). And what do you mean by "arrived in north western India"?

                What evidence is there of Buddhist mss. from the time of Asoka? In what language were they written, in Asokan Brahmi? Sanskrit was not an option.
                 --
                Peter T. Daniels grammatim@...


                >
                >From: Graham Hagens <rgrahamh@...>
                >To: ANE-2@yahoogroups.com
                >Sent: Fri, May 21, 2010 11:12:51 AM
                >Subject: Re: [ANE-2] Achaemenid period creativity
                >
                >According to Diringer the Karoshthi script had arrived in north western India by the 5th century - and the oldest extant Buddhist Gandhari canon  is written that script,  However most Buddhist traditions were oral - and not put to writing, in Brahmi, until the time of Ashoka, 3rd century.

                >Graham Hagens
                >Hamilton   
              • Giuseppe Del Monte
                ... I received it as usual. Giuseppe Del Monte Prof. Giuseppe del Monte Professore Ordinario di Storia del Vicino Oriente antico Dpt. Scienze storiche del
                Message 7 of 16 , May 26, 2010
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                  At 19.26 25/05/2010, you wrote:
                  >Hi Brian - I submitted this to the list a few days ago, but for some
                  >reason it has not yet shown up.

                  >Since I see no reason why it should be rejected I am re-submitting.

                  >Graham Hagens
                  >
                  >--- On Fri, 5/21/10, Graham Hagens <rgrahamh@...> wrote:
                  >
                  >
                  >From: Graham Hagens <rgrahamh@...>
                  >Subject: Re: [ANE-2] Achaemenid period creativity
                  >To: ANE-2@yahoogroups.com
                  >Date: Friday, May 21, 2010, 11:12 AM
                  ><snip>

                  I received it as usual.

                  Giuseppe Del Monte



                  Prof. Giuseppe del Monte
                  Professore Ordinario di
                  Storia del Vicino Oriente antico
                  Dpt. Scienze storiche del mondo antico
                  Università di Pisa
                  via Galvani 1 - I-56100 Pisa
                  Fax 39-050-500668 - E-mail <gdelmonte@...>
                • Brian Colless
                  ... That NS contribution was heavily edited, and only published after a long delay (nine months of gestation and digestation), much longer than happens in this
                  Message 8 of 16 , May 28, 2010
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                    On 22/05/2010, at 3:12 AM, Graham Hagens wrote:

                    > Brian - now that I know, thanks to New Scientist that you can wiggle
                    > your own ears I have more respect than ever for your contributions
                    > to this list.
                    >
                    That NS contribution was heavily edited, and only published after a
                    long delay (nine months of gestation and digestation), much longer
                    than happens in this forum, while the committee considers whether my
                    submissions are libelous or libidinous or too libertarian to let
                    through.

                    If you want to see the original Australasian sardonic version, it is
                    preserved here (until the wonderful wizard's web collapses):

                    http://bonzoz.blogspot.com/2009/07/earwiggling.html

                    But this discussion has inspired me to put my teaching materials on
                    Zoroastrianism onto the web, adding an ANCIENT PERSIA section to:

                    http://sites.google.com/site/collesseum/

                    At a religion conference in Auckland, Lloyd Geering gave a lecture on
                    the axial period; he made a big thing of it in his books; Peter
                    Craigie gave a critique, the main point being the uncertain date of
                    Zarathushtra.

                    If the Iranians are not in the axial period it certainly deserves to
                    be trashed.
                    I have brooded over the date of Zarathushtra for many years (you know
                    me, if there is a puzzle to be solved I will chew on it till it
                    releases its marrow).

                    Here are two relevant extracts from my notes:

                    (1) The lifetime of Zarathushtra
                    This is not known. Was it the sixth century B.C.E., or was it much
                    earlier?
                    We could argue for the sixth century in this way:
                    Cyrus (559-530 B.C.E.), the founder of the Persian Empire, mentions
                    the god Ahura Mazda, the god proclaimed by the prophet Zarathushtra,
                    though he also names other gods as his patrons.

                    Darius (a successor of Cyrus but not a descendant ) likewise
                    acknowledges Auramazda but also "the gods that there are";

                    the name of the king who protected Zarathushtra was Vishtaspa, and
                    that was also the name of the father of Darius, who ruled Parthia
                    while Darius was emperor;
                    so Zarathushtra lived in eastern Iran (in or near Parthia) during the
                    reign of Darius (522-486).

                    But Vishtaspa may have been an ancient name revived by Darius's
                    family.

                    And, some scholars (notably Mary Boyce) suggest, on the basis of
                    Iranian and Greek traditions, that the prophet belongs in the second
                    millennium B.C.E., perhaps contemporary with Moses, rather than with
                    Ezekiel and Jeremiah, and the Buddha, in the sixth century B.C.E.

                    However, the Islamic author al-Biruni gives the date of Zarathushtra
                    as 258 years before Alexander the Great.
                    The date of Alexander's defeat of Darius III of Persia was 330 B.C.E.;
                    subtracting 258 from this (or adding 258 to 330!) produces 588 B.C.E.,
                    as the birth-year of the prophet;
                    tradition says that he died at the age of seventy-seven; this gives
                    his dates as 588-511 (6th century, anyway).

                    (2) Notes to my translation of selected Gathas
                    Yasna 53 is the last in the collection of Gathas. It seems to be a
                    sermon delivered by the prophet at the wedding of his daughter
                    Pouruchista, who is named in the third verse. It also mentions his
                    protector Kavi Vishtaspa. Zarathushtra exhorts his followers, both men
                    and women, to good works and good thought. The homely setting of this
                    homily is enough to dispel any idea that this prophet is a religious
                    fiction of the Zoroastrians. There was certainly a historical
                    Zoroaster, as there was a historical Jesus and Muhammad and Gautama.
                    Which century of history he belongs to remains uncertain. Scholarly
                    opinion has tended to place him in the sixth century B.C.E., along
                    with the Sage Confucius, and Gautama the Buddha, and Ezekiel (who like
                    Zoroaster was both priest and prophet). The fact that Vishtaspa was
                    the name of the father of Darius the Great (522-486) is an important
                    fact for this case. But there is a growing feeling that Zarathushtra
                    belongs with Moses in the second millennium B.C.E. Mary Boyce would
                    date him to the Bronze Age, more specifically between 1400 and 1200.

                    One thing that came up in the discussion is the archaic look about the
                    language of the Gathas (translating some of them was one of the
                    hardest tasks I have ever undertaken), I invoked the analogies of
                    Classical Hebrew and Arabic, where Arabic retained all the noun-cases;
                    and similarly modern English and German.

                    I had thought that the divine title Ahura Mazda, Mazda Ahura, Mazda
                    might have helped in dating (> Ahuramazda, and Ohrmizd).

                    Anyway, the Iranians certainly transmitted old and new ideas into
                    Judaism (and Christianity): resurrection, judgement.
                    And the winged sun-disc from Egypt, passed through Mesopotamia to
                    Persia and Parsee religion (with Ahura Mazda in the disc; this is
                    denied, and I do not know what the truth is), but George Mendenhall
                    (Tenth Generation) reported one from Anatolia with the head of Jesus
                    Christ in the disc.

                    >
                    > The estimated birthdate of the Buddha
                    >
                    I saw a good argument for putting Gautama at the same time, 580 -500
                    (he lived 80 years)

                    Brian Colless
                    Massey University, NZ

                    > maintained by various Buddhist communities range over 177 years from
                    > 624 to 447BCE. Although the 563 is most commonly, there are good
                    > arguments that he lived between 463-383BCE by which time the
                    > Achaemenid satrapies in Gandhara (eponymous Kandahar) had been in
                    > existence for several decades. There is also a body of (admittedly
                    > anecdotal) evidence to suggest that Siddartha Gautama spent some
                    > years practising meditation prior to his Enlightenment in what is
                    > today southern Afghanistan.
                    >
                    > According to Diringer the Karoshthi script had arrived in north
                    > western India by the 5th century - and the oldest extant Buddhist
                    > Gandhari canon is written that script, However most Buddhist
                    > traditions were oral - and not put to writing, in Brahmi, until the
                    > time of Ashoka, 3rd century.
                    >
                    > Graham Hagens
                    > Hamilton
                    >
                    > --- On Thu, 5/20/10, Brian Colless <briancolless@...>
                    > wrote:
                    >
                    > From: Brian Colless <briancolless@...>
                    > Subject: [ANE-2] Achaemenid period creativity
                    > To: ANE-2@yahoogroups.com
                    > Date: Thursday, May 20, 2010, 8:39 AM
                    >
                    >
                    >
                    > On 17/05/2010, at 1:54 AM, Graham Hagens wrote:
                    >
                    > > That two century Achaemenid period was arguably one of the most
                    > > creative in the long history of what we like to call civilization.
                    > >
                    > Yes, it has been called 'the axial period'.
                    >
                    > I had never thought of the Akhaemenid connection for the Indian
                    > movements, only the question whether Zarathushtra's protector Kavi
                    > Vishtaspa was the same ruler as the father of Darius the Great (Greek
                    > Hystaspes).
                    >
                    > I always thought the Buddha belonged around 500, but I did not think
                    > of an Iranian connection.
                    >
                    > I am wondering now whether this is when the Indian scripts begin,
                    > based on the Aramaic alphabet. Is this something you considered?
                    >
                    > Brian Colless
                    >
                    > Massey Univrsity, NZ
                    >
                    > > In a forthcoming article in the classics journal Mouseion I argue
                    > > that the Achaemenid satrapies in Gandhara played a pivotal role in
                    > > the emergence of western and eastern (Greek, Buddhist, Upanishad,
                    > > Jain) philosophies. Syncretic evidence supports the seldom cited 5th
                    > > century BCE chronology of Siddartha Gautama and major Upanishad
                    > > teachers suggesting that they like Herodotus, Democritus, Isaiah II/
                    > > III, Nehemiah etc. were all at one time subjects of the same empire,
                    > > and enjoyed similar degress of freedom to explore new ideas.
                    > >
                    > > Graham Hagens
                    > > Hamilton
                    > >
                    >
                    > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                    >
                    > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                    >
                    >
                    >



                    [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                  • Francesco Brighenti
                    Dear Brian, ... Forget about the 6th c. BCE date. This is excluded, _in primis_, on linguistic grounds:
                    Message 9 of 16 , May 29, 2010
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                      Dear Brian,

                      You write:

                      > [T]his discussion has inspired me to put my teaching materials on
                      > Zoroastrianism onto the web, adding an ANCIENT PERSIA section to:
                      >
                      > [ http://sites.google.com/site/collesseum/iranian-documents ]
                      >
                      > [...]
                      >
                      > Here are two relevant extracts from my notes:
                      >
                      > "The lifetime of Zarathushtra -- This is not known. Was it the
                      > sixth century B.C.E., or was it much earlier? [...] [S]ome scholars
                      > (notably Mary Boyce) suggest [...] that the prophet belongs in the
                      > second millennium B.C.E."

                      Forget about the 6th c. BCE date. This is excluded, _in primis_, on linguistic grounds:

                      http://iranica.com/articles/zoroaster-iii-zoroaster-in-the-avesta
                      "As a result of such linguistic arguments, we can rule out with certainty that Zaraθuštra was a contemporary of the early Achaemenids, because the language of the Avesta does not allow such a late date."

                      Zaraθuštra is mentioned several times in all five Gâthâs (the oldest Avestan texts) and, therefore, *if* he was a historical character, he must be coeval with them. The Old Avestan period was roughly "contemporary with the reign of the Hittite king Hattusilis (ca. 1300) and the Mycenean Greek culture (1600-1100)" -- see O.P. Skjærvø at

                      http://blagoverie.org/files/385/oldavestanprimer.pdf
                      (pp. IX-X in the paper)

                      See also Skjærvø's discussions of the historicity vs. non-historicity of Zaraθuštra at

                      http://tinyurl.com/328x9j
                      (pp. 52-56 in the paper)

                      and at

                      http://www.safarmer.com/Indo-Eurasian/Skjaervo.pdf
                      (pp. 9-11 and 20-25 in the paper)

                      > I saw a good argument for putting Gautama at the same time, 580-500
                      > (he lived 80 years).

                      Most scholars now date the death of the "historical" Buddha (once again, *if* he was a historical character, which is not granted at all!) to around 400 BCE or a little later. The "new dating" of the Buddha, on which a consensus was arrived at on the occasion of a colloquium held in 1988 under the auspices of H. Bechert (see H. Bechert, ed., _The Dating of the Historical Buddha / Die Datierung des Historischen Buddha_, Göttingen, Vandenhoeck & Ruprecht, 1991-2), implies that the Buddha's period of teaching activity was in the second half of the 5th c. BCE, perhaps extending into the first quarter of the 4th c. BCE -- see at

                      http://indology.info/papers/cousins/node4.shtml

                      and at

                      http://www.buddhistethics.org/15/prebish-article.pdf

                      Kindest regards,
                      Francesco Brighenti
                      Venezia
                    • Graham Hagens
                      On Tue, 5/25/10, Peter T. Daniels wrote ... I hope that Trudy and the other moderators let this thread continue at least for a while: there is little doubt
                      Message 10 of 16 , May 29, 2010
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                        On Tue, 5/25/10, Peter T. Daniels wrote
                        > Trudy suggested that writing in South Asia is
                        > beyond our purview, but I really can't let this stand --

                        I hope that Trudy and the other moderators let this thread continue at least for a while: there is little doubt that contact between Persian/Hellenistic 'India' and the west made a significant contribution to both 'western' and 'eastern' cultures


                        > Diringer was written more than 60 years ago, and there have
                        > been many discoveries of Kharosthi manuscripts since then
                        > (studied mostly by Richard Salomon of the University of
                        > Washington, and detailed paleography by his student Andrew
                        > Glass). And what do you mean by "arrived in north
                        > western India"?

                        Thank you. 'Originated' was the word Diringer used. Since Aramaic was the linqua franca of the empire, it would have been the aramaic script which 'arrived'

                        The quotation from Diringer below suggests that the 5th century date is an 'educated guess':

                        Diringer 1948: 302 … "Karosthi script must have originated in the 5th century in the 5th century in north-western India at that time under Persian rule, which was the best medium for the spread of Aramaic speech and script"

                        Salomon "Ancient Buddhist Scrolls from Gandhara" (1999) appears to support such early dating:

                        Page 65: "Association of writing with the Persians also derives from use of the word lipi for ‘writing’ in Panini’s 4th century Sanskrit grammar which in its origin is a Persian word"

                        > What evidence is there of Buddhist mss. from the time of
                        > Asoka?

                        None. As I understand it the earliest extant Buddhist documents are those Gandhari Karoshthi birch bark scroll found in the area of Hadda, Bamiyan and other Buddhist sites in the Jalalabad plain and central northern Afghanistan. Salomon (loc.cit) dates them to the 2nd or 1st centuries BCE.

                        > Asokas various incriptions
                        >In what language were they written, in Asokan Brahmi?
                        > Sanskrit was not an option.

                        Pali/Brahmi, Gandhari/Karoshthi and others I believe. Depending on the location in the very large territory Asoka controlled.
                        Diringer 1948: 302 again "Karosthi has been known a long time … inscription on the Indo-Afghan border ca. 251BC with a translation of Asoka’s edicts … majority of inscriptions discovered in ancient Gandhara (eastern Afghanistan) and the northernPunjab.

                        But any corrections you may want to make will be most appreciated

                        Graham Hagens
                        Hamilton, Ontario

                        >
                        > >From: Graham Hagens <rgrahamh@...>
                        >
                        > >To: ANE-2@yahoogroups.com
                        >
                        > >Sent: Fri, May 21, 2010 11:12:51 AM
                        >
                        > >Subject: Re: [ANE-2] Achaemenid period creativity
                        >
                        > >
                        >
                        > >According to Diringer the Karoshthi script had arrived
                        > in north western India by the 5th century - and the oldest
                        > extant Buddhist Gandhari canon  is written that script, 
                        > However most Buddhist traditions were oral - and not put to
                        > writing, in Brahmi, until the time of Ashoka, 3rd
                        > century.
                        >
                        > > 
                        >
                        > >Graham Hagens
                        >
                        > >Hamilton   
                      • Francesco Brighenti
                        ... Panini (400-350 BCE?) does not use script, yet he knows of script, lipi/libi, an Old Persian loanword in Sanskrit. Panini s grammar presents the word in
                        Message 11 of 16 , May 30, 2010
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                          --- In ANE-2@yahoogroups.com, Graham Hagens <rgrahamh@...> wrote:

                          > Salomon, "Ancient Buddhist Scrolls from Gandhara" (1999)..., p.
                          > 65:
                          >
                          > "Association of writing with the Persians also derives from use of
                          > the word lipi for 'writing' in Panini's 4th century Sanskrit
                          > grammar which in its origin is a Persian word."

                          Panini (400-350 BCE?) does not use script, yet he knows of script, lipi/libi, an Old Persian loanword in Sanskrit. Panini's grammar presents the word in these two forms, lipi and libi, without hinting at which the author preferred. This means that he regarded this word as outside his own science, i.e. the science of Sanskrit word- and sentence-formation. Hence, this Paninean term was, most likely, a loanword imported into Gandhara (Panini's home) by Achaemenid clerks.

                          Old Persian dipi '(piece of) writing, document, inscription' (with the initial d- pronounced as voiced English /th/) was borrowed from Achaemenid Elamite tippi (Middle Elamite tuppi), itself most likely borrowed from Akkadian tuppu, ultimately going back to Sumerian DUB 'tablet'.

                          The /l/ in Sanskri lipi/libi is clearly an East Iranian adaptation of Persian (West Iranian) /d/: indeed, East Iranian has /l/ in such etymologically related cases. Conversely, some 100 or 150 years later Ashokan scribes in the Northwest of the Indian subcontinent (Gandhara/East Afghanistan) used this import in the form dipi, i.e. preserving the original dental initial.

                          In addition to this, the grammatical form "yavanani", derived by Panini's rules and listed in his grammar, is declared by the slightly later grammarian Katyayana (3rd century BCE) to refer to "yavanallipya", i.e. the script of the Yavanas ('Greeks'), in contrast with Panini's form "yavani", which refers to Yavana females instead. According to this interpretation, Panini is held to have been aware of the 'Yavana script' in the Northwest, although an identification of this script with the Greek one appears rather implausible. The Paninean term lipi/libi could have rather indicated a script used by the Persians, possibly the Kharoshthi or even the Imperial Aramaic one. However, in this case it is not entirely clear why the Persians would have been labeled as "Yavanas" in Panini’s example.

                          Kindest regards,
                          Francesco Brighenti
                          Venezia
                        • Brian Colless
                          ... Dear Francesco, My thanks to you for alerting me to recent scholarship on Zarathushtra ( Z ). One new point (for me) is the Assyrian recording of Iranian
                          Message 12 of 16 , Jun 1, 2010
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                            On 30/05/2010, at 4:23 AM, Francesco Brighenti wrote:

                            > Forget about the 6th c. BCE date. This is excluded, _in primis_, on
                            > linguistic grounds
                            >


                            Dear Francesco,

                            My thanks to you for alerting me to recent scholarship on Zarathushtra
                            ('Z').
                            One new point (for me) is the Assyrian recording of Iranian religious
                            words.

                            Let me say that I support both the Bronze-Age and Iron-Age date for Z.

                            As one who mentally inhabits the Bronze Age (West Semitic
                            inscriptions) I would be very glad to meet him there. But here I will
                            try to defend the hypothesis of a later date for Z.

                            Note that I have no time for the nonsensical fantasy that precludes
                            historicity for Z, or Gautama, or Yeshua`, or Muhammad (not too many
                            academics take the risk of denying him a place in history). The
                            prophets Moses and David are not figments, either, I like to think.

                            In the scientific (!) field of history-and-phenomenology of religion
                            (which is where I have grazed for 50 years) Z provides an excellent
                            example of the lonely prophet who gradually acquires a group of
                            followers, and his system becomes a national and/or imperial religion.

                            Muhammad is another instance of the solitary prophet who created a
                            community, and in his own lifetime all the tribes of Arabia were
                            'Believers', followers of his Way, the Straight Path; and before long
                            his doctrines and practices were the basis of an empire.

                            Z could have had similar success in the Iranian realm with his Rule of
                            Good Thought (provided he did not set himself up as rival ruler to the
                            Akhaemenids).

                            The linguistic argument is that the language of the Gathas resembles
                            the Sanskrit of the Rig Veda (but I would like to know a
                            scientifically accurate date for that collection of hymns); it is not
                            the same as the language of the Akhaemenid inscriptions.

                            Here is my defensive line of argument (and this is an opportunity
                            for it to be demolished):

                            (1) Language differences
                            The Arabic of the Qur'an looks more archaic than the related Hebrew of
                            the Torah (Arabic uses three cases, like Akkadian, versus no case-
                            endings on nouns and adjectives in Hebrew). Contemporary German
                            compared with English (they were once the same language) looks
                            different and could be suspected of being much older, if we did not
                            know better.

                            Archaizing language can be used in sacred contexts, as happened in
                            ancient Egypt, for example (and in the Book of Mormon).

                            The language of Z was eastern Iranian not western Persian.

                            Asha ('order') looks later than Arta and Rta (Sanskrit)

                            (2) Vishtaspa
                            The name Vishtaspa is found as the protector of Z and the father of
                            Darius the Great (but it might have been given to him as an ancient
                            name of great prestige , like Alexander, which goes back to the Bronze
                            Age, and into the current era).

                            (3) Ahura Mazda, Ohrmizd
                            Z did not necessarily 'invent' this title for the supreme God.
                            Analogy: the word 'ilah (as in Arabic ilah and Al-ilah) is found
                            inscribed on one of the Sinai turquoise mines (Sinai 384, Mine L), in
                            the Bronze Age.
                            Ohrmizd is a later form, but Ahuramazda is used by Darius. Z also has
                            Ahura Mazdatha (very wise Lord).

                            (4) Varuna, Mitra, Indra
                            In the Hittite treaty with Mitanni (Hurrians) we meet among the
                            witnesses these Indo-Aryan deities, in the 14th C BCE:
                            "the twin gods Mitra and Uruwana, Indar"

                            http://sites.google.com/site/collesseum/hatti
                            (I have put my account of Anatolian documents and myths on the web
                            today)

                            Mithra is a god of covenants, and there is a long hymn to him in the
                            Avesta (Yasht 10).

                            http://sites.google.com/site/collesseum/iranian-documents/zoroastrian-texts

                            It has a credo, a profession of faith: "I confess myself a worshipper
                            of Mazda, a follower of Zarathushtra, a hater of daevas, and obedient
                            to the laws of Mazda ...."

                            This would explain why INDRA (Indar) is missing from the Z'n pantheon:
                            he was a d(a)eva, and indeed the king of the Devas. In (later) Vedic
                            religion the devas were good, the asuras were on the outer; in Z'ism
                            the daevas were demonized, and Ahura (= Asura, Lord) was supreme.

                            But what has happened to Varuna the Asura/Ahura, alias Uruwana (Greek
                            Ouranos 'sky')?

                            To my mind, he has maintained his supremacy in Z'ism, and perhaps, as
                            in Judaism and Islam, he is only addressed by titles, not a personal
                            name; he is Ahura Mazda. (Wise Lord).

                            I am puzzled by Mary Boyce's denial of this. He would not be relegated
                            to the lower ranks, as a water god in Z'ism. (Such things happen: the
                            supreme Polynesian god is Tangaloa/ Tangaroa [which I suspect might
                            have a connection with inner Asian Tengeri] is the god of the sea in
                            Maaori religion, and Io is at the top.

                            I think we have had this discussion in the past, but the case is not
                            closed yet, is it?

                            Brian Colless
                            Massey University, New Zealand



                            On 30/05/2010, at 4:23 AM, Francesco Brighenti wrote:

                            >
                            >
                            > Dear Brian,
                            >
                            > You write:
                            >
                            > > [T]his discussion has inspired me to put my teaching materials on
                            > > Zoroastrianism onto the web, adding an ANCIENT PERSIA section to:
                            > >
                            > > [ http://sites.google.com/site/collesseum/iranian-documents ]
                            > >
                            > > [...]
                            > >
                            > > Here are two relevant extracts from my notes:
                            > >
                            > > "The lifetime of Zarathushtra -- This is not known. Was it the
                            > > sixth century B.C.E., or was it much earlier? [...] [S]ome scholars
                            > > (notably Mary Boyce) suggest [...] that the prophet belongs in the
                            > > second millennium B.C.E."
                            >
                            > Forget about the 6th c. BCE date. This is excluded, _in primis_, on
                            > linguistic grounds:
                            >
                            > http://iranica.com/articles/zoroaster-iii-zoroaster-in-the-avesta
                            > "As a result of such linguistic arguments, we can rule out with
                            > certainty that Zara��u��tra was a contemporary of the early
                            > Achaemenids, because the language of the Avesta does not allow such
                            > a late date."
                            >
                            > Zara��u��tra is mentioned several times in all five G��th��s (the
                            > oldest Avestan texts) and, therefore, *if* he was a historical
                            > character, he must be coeval with them. The Old Avestan period was
                            > roughly "contemporary with the reign of the Hittite king Hattusilis
                            > (ca. 1300) and the Mycenean Greek culture (1600-1100)" -- see O.P.
                            > Skj��rv�� at
                            >
                            > http://blagoverie.org/files/385/oldavestanprimer.pdf
                            > (pp. IX-X in the paper)
                            >
                            > See also Skj��rv��'s discussions of the historicity vs. non-
                            > historicity of Zara��u��tra at
                            >
                            > http://tinyurl.com/328x9j
                            > (pp. 52-56 in the paper)
                            >
                            > and at
                            >
                            > http://www.safarmer.com/Indo-Eurasian/Skjaervo.pdf
                            > (pp. 9-11 and 20-25 in the paper)
                            >
                            > > I saw a good argument for putting Gautama at the same time, 580-500
                            > > (he lived 80 years).
                            >
                            > Most scholars now date the death of the "historical" Buddha (once
                            > again, *if* he was a historical character, which is not granted at
                            > all!) to around 400 BCE or a little later. The "new dating" of the
                            > Buddha, on which a consensus was arrived at on the occasion of a
                            > colloquium held in 1988 under the auspices of H. Bechert (see H.
                            > Bechert, ed., _The Dating of the Historical Buddha / Die Datierung
                            > des Historischen Buddha_, G��ttingen, Vandenhoeck & Ruprecht,
                            > 1991-2), implies that the Buddha's period of teaching activity was
                            > in the second half of the 5th c. BCE, perhaps extending into the
                            > first quarter of the 4th c. BCE -- see at
                            >
                            > http://indology.info/papers/cousins/node4.shtml
                            >
                            > and at
                            >
                            > http://www.buddhistethics.org/15/prebish-article.pdf
                            >
                            > Kindest regards,
                            > Francesco Brighenti
                            > Venezia
                            >
                            >
                            >



                            [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                          • Graham Hagens
                            Z could certainly be late so long as one recognises that by the time his religion reached Persia it was already old Graham Hagens Hamilton, Ontario
                            Message 13 of 16 , Jun 2, 2010
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                              Z could certainly be 'late' so long as one recognises that by the time his religion reached Persia it was already 'old'

                              Graham Hagens
                              Hamilton, Ontario

                              ed, 6/2/10, Brian Colless <briancolless@...> wrote:

                              > From: Brian Colless <briancolless@...>
                              > Subject: Re: Achaemenid period creativity
                              > To: "Graham Hagens" <rgrahamh@...>
                              > Date: Wednesday, June 2, 2010, 9:31 AM
                              > Graham,
                              >
                              > I would be pleased if you put all you have said to me into
                              > the forum.

                              >
                              > Brian
                              >
                              > On 3/06/2010, at 12:36 AM, Graham Hagens wrote:
                              >
                              > >
                              > > Brian - I have just realized that I did not copy the
                              > ANE list on my 
                              > > response.
                              > >
                              > > so our exchange is off-list. Do you mind if I submit
                              > this exchange?
                              > >
                              > > Also: regarding the Iron Age/Bronze Age question - are
                              > you familiar 
                              > > with Mary Boyce's comments about the dating of Z? -
                              > she suggests 
                              > > that the teachings arose during a period of societal
                              > disturbance and 
                              > > conflict between warriors and tribesmen sometime in the
                              > late 2nd 
                              > > millennium.  The terms Iron/Bronze don't really
                              > mean  anything in 
                              > > the south Asian steppes in that timeframe.

                              > So, Z could just as well be late!
                              > I don't want to be quoted as denying the BAge dating for Z;
                              > I just 
                              > want to consider both possibilities carefully.
                              >
                              > > The social tensions were most probably related to
                              > climate change, 
                              > > and dessication of grazing land (she doesn't say that,
                              > other 
                              > > researchers do).
                              > >
                              > > Graham
                              > >
                              > > --- On Wed, 6/2/10, Brian Colless <briancolless@...>
                              > wrote:
                              > >
                              > >> From: Brian Colless <briancolless@...>
                              > >> Subject: Re: Achaemenid period creativity
                              > >> To: "Graham Hagens" <rgrahamh@...>
                              > >> Date: Wednesday, June 2, 2010, 12:29 AM
                              > >>
                              > >> Graham,
                              > >>
                              > >> This is interesting and possibly enlightening!
                              > >>
                              > >> Today I have set out an argument for Zarathushtra
                              > in the
                              > >> Iron Age, rather than the Bronze Age (though I am
                              > not
                              > >> denying this possibility).
                              > >>
                              > >> Brian
                              > >> On 30/05/2010, at 6:43 AM, Graham Hagens wrote:
                              > >>
                              > >>> Thanks Brian.
                              > >>> I am astonished that it takes so long to get
                              > into NS's
                              > >> Last Word. That would explain why I never see
                              > answers to
                              > >> questions which so often interest
                              > me.   How
                              > >> does Jon Richfield manage to do one a week?
                              > >>>
                              > >>> Anyway to get to your main point about
                              > Zarathustra.
                              > >>>
                              > >>> In my slightly humble opinion, the dating of
                              > his life
                              > >> is almost completely irrelevant when considering
                              > the impact
                              > >> of Zoroastrian ideas on the ANE.
                              > >>>
                              > >>> Two primary points emphasized by Mary Boyce
                              > are:
                              > >>>
                              > >>> (i) Based on the Avestan preserved in the
                              > earliest
                              > >> Gathas she concluded (and the vast majority of
                              > Zoroastrian
                              > >> scholars now agree), by the time Zoroastrianism
                              > reached
                              > >> Media/Persia in the 7th century Zarathusthra had
                              > been dead
                              > >> for centuries: 5 or 10? it doesn't matter. 
                              > By then the
                              > >> religion he started had become a highly
                              > structured,
                              > >> inflexible priest controlled organisation with a
                              > long list
                              > >> of impossible rules & regulations.
                              > >>> (ii) Cyrus I (or II, the guy who conquered
                              > Media)
                              > >> appears to have been a recent, perhaps reluctant,
                              > convert to
                              > >> Zoroastrianism. It is not even clear that he
                              > actually
                              > >> followed its precepts. (The suggestion being that
                              > he may
                              > >> have pretended to convert in order to marry into
                              > the Median
                              > >> royal family).
                              > >>> The consequences of his ambivalence (like
                              > Henry VIII's
                              > >> catholicism) may have been profound, for his
                              > various courts
                              > >> entertained philosophers and religious teachers
                              > from all
                              > >> over the empire, and the Jews were not the only
                              > group to get
                              > >> a letter of commendation and praise for their
                              > Deity. His
                              > >> scattered subjects felt free to pick and choose
                              > whichever
                              > >> elements of the religion appealed to them. 
                              > And they
                              > >> did.
                              > >>>
                              > >>> Graham Hagens
                              > >>> Hamilton, Ontario
                              > >>>
                              > >>>
                              > >>>
                              > >>> --- On Fri, 5/28/10, Brian Colless <briancolless@...>
                              > >> wrote:
                              > >>>
                              > >>>> From: Brian Colless <briancolless@...>
                              > >>>> Subject: Achaemenid period creativity
                              > >>>> To: ANE-2@yahoogroups.com
                              > >>>> Cc: rgrahamh@...
                              > >>>> Date: Friday, May 28, 2010, 9:14 AM
                              > >>>>
                              > >>>> On 22/05/2010, at 3:12 AM, Graham Hagens
                              > >>>> wrote:
                              > >>>> Brian
                              > >>>> - now that I know, thanks to New Scientist
                              > that
                              > >>>> you can wiggle your own ears I have more
                              > respect
                              > >> than ever
                              > >>>> for your contributions to this list.
                              > >>>> That
                              > >>>> NS contribution was heavily edited, and
                              > only
                              > >> published after
                              > >>>> a long delay (nine months of gestation
                              > and
                              > >> digestation),
                              > >>>> much longer  than happens in this
                              > forum,
                              > >> while the
                              > >>>> committee considers whether my submissions
                              > are
                              > >> libelous or
                              > >>>> libidinous or too libertarian to let
                              > through.
                              > >>>> If you want to see the original
                              > Australasian
                              > >>>> sardonic version, it is preserved here
                              > (until the
                              > >> wonderful
                              > >>>> wizard's web collapses):
                              > >>>> http://bonzoz.blogspot.com/2009/07/earwiggling.html
                              > >>>> But this discussion has inspired me to put
                              > my
                              > >>>> teaching materials on Zoroastrianism onto
                              > the web,
                              > >> adding an
                              > >>>> ANCIENT PERSIA section to:
                              > >>>> http://sites.google.com/site/collesseum/
                              > >>>> At a religion conference in Auckland,
                              > Lloyd
                              > >>>> Geering gave a lecture on the axial
                              > period; he
                              > >> made a big
                              > >>>> thing of it in his books; Peter Craigie
                              > gave a
                              > >> critique, the
                              > >>>> main point being the uncertain date of
                              > >>>> Zarathushtra.
                              > >>>> Iif the Iranians are not in the axial
                              > period it
                              > >>>> certainly deserves to be trashed.I have
                              > brooded
                              > >>>> over the date of Zarathushtra for many
                              > years (you
                              > >> know me,
                              > >>>> if there is a puzzle to be solved I will
                              > chew on
                              > >> it till it
                              > >>>> releases its marrow).
                              > >>>> Here are two relevant extracts from my
                              > >>>> notes: (1) The lifetime of
                              > >>>> ZarathushtraThis is not known. Was it the
                              > >>>> sixth century
                              > >>>> B.C.E., or was it much earlier?We could
                              > argue for
                              > >> the sixth
                              > >>>> century in
                              > >>>> this way: Cyrus (559-530 B.C.E.),
                              > >>>> the founder of the
                              > >>>> Persian Empire,  mentions the god
                              > >>>> Ahura Mazda, the god proclaimed by the
                              > prophet
                              > >>>> Zarathushtra, though
                              > >>>> he also names other gods as his
                              > >>>> patrons.Darius (a successor of Cyrus
                              > >>>> but not a
                              > >>>> descendant ) likewise acknowledges
                              > Auramazda but
                              > >> also
                              > >>>> "the gods that
                              > >>>> there
                              > >>>> are";
                              > >>>>
                              > >>>> the name of the king who
                              > >>>> protected
                              > >>>> Zarathushtra was Vishtaspa, and that was
                              > also the
                              > >> name of
                              > >>>> the father of
                              > >>>> Darius,
                              > >>>> who  ruled Parthia
                              > >>>> while Darius was  emperor;
                              > >>>> so Zarathushtra lived in
                              > >>>> eastern Iran (in
                              > >>>> or near Parthia) during the reign of
                              > >>>> Darius (522-486). But Vishtaspa may have
                              > >>>> been an ancient name revived by Darius's
                              > >>>> family.
                              > >>>> And, some scholars
                              > >>>> (notably Mary Boyce) suggest,
                              > >>>> on the basis of Iranian and Greek
                              > traditions, that
                              > >> the
                              > >>>> prophet belongs
                              > >>>> in the
                              > >>>> second millennium B.C.E., perhaps
                              > contemporary
                              > >> with Moses,
                              > >>>> rather than
                              > >>>> with
                              > >>>> Ezekiel and Jeremiah, and the Buddha, in
                              > the sixth
                              > >> century
                              > >>>> B.C.E. However, the Islamic
                              > >>>> author al-Biruni gives
                              > >>>> the date
                              > >>>> of Zarathushtra as 258 years before
                              > Alexander the
                              > >> Great.
                              > >>>> The date of
                              > >>>> Alexander's
                              > >>>> defeat of Darius III of Persia was 330
                              > >>>> B.C.E.;subtracting 258 from this (or
                              > >>>> adding 258 to 330!) produces 588
                              > >>>> B.C.E., as the birth-year of the
                              > prophet;tradition
                              > >> says that he died
                              > >>>> at the age of
                              > >>>> seventy-seven;  this gives his
                              > >>>> dates as 588-511 (6th century, anyway).
                              > >>>> (2) Notes
                              > >>>> to my translation of selected Gathas
                              > >>>> Yasna 53 is the
                              > >>>> last in the
                              > >>>> collection of Gathas. It seems to be a
                              > sermon
                              > >> delivered by
                              > >>>> the prophet at the
                              > >>>> wedding of his daughter Pouruchista, who
                              > is named
                              > >> in the
                              > >>>> third verse. It also
                              > >>>> mentions his protector Kavi Vishtaspa.
                              > >> Zarathushtra exhorts
                              > >>>> his followers, both
                              > >>>> men and women, to good works and good
                              > thought. The
                              > >> homely
                              > >>>> setting of this
                              > >>>> homily is enough to dispel any idea that
                              > this
                              > >> prophet is a
                              > >>>> religious fiction of
                              > >>>> the Zoroastrians. There was certainly a
                              > >> historical
                              > >>>> Zoroaster, as there was a
                              > >>>> historical Jesus and Muhammad and Gautama.
                              > Which
                              > >> century of
                              > >>>> history he belongs
                              > >>>> to remains uncertain. Scholarly opinion
                              > has tended
                              > >> to place
                              > >>>> him in the sixth
                              > >>>> century B.C.E., along with the Sage
                              > Confucius, and
                              > >> Gautama
                              > >>>> the Buddha, and
                              > >>>> Ezekiel (who like Zoroaster was both
                              > priest and
                              > >> prophet).
                              > >>>> The fact that
                              > >>>> Vishtaspa was the name of the father of
                              > Darius the
                              > >> Great
                              > >>>> (522-486) is an
                              > >>>> important fact for this case. But there is
                              > a
                              > >> growing
                              > >>>> feeling that Zarathushtra
                              > >>>> belongs with Moses in the second
                              > millennium B.C.E.
                              > >> Mary
                              > >>>> Boyce would date him to
                              > >>>> the Bronze Age, more specifically between
                              > 1400
                              > >> and
                              > >>>> 1200.
                              > >>>>
                              > >>>>
                              > >>>>
                              > >>>>
                              > >>>> One thing that came up in the
                              > >>>> discussion is the archaic look about the
                              > language
                              > >> of the
                              > >>>> Gathas (translating some of them was one
                              > of the
                              > >> hardest
                              > >>>> tasks I have ever undertaken), I invoked
                              > the
                              > >> analogies of
                              > >>>> Classical Hebrew and Arabic, where Arabic
                              > retained
                              > >> all the
                              > >>>> noun-cases; and similarly modern English
                              > and
                              > >>>> German.
                              > >>>> I had thought that the divine title Ahura
                              > Mazda,
                              > >>>> Mazda Ahura, Mazda might have helped in
                              > dating
                              > >> (>
                              > >>>> Ahuramazda, and Ohrmizd).
                              > >>>> Anyway, the Iranians certainly transmitted
                              > old
                              > >>>> and new ideas into Judaism (and
                              > Christianity):
                              > >> resurrection,
                              > >>>> judgement.And the winged sun-disc from
                              > Egypt,
                              > >>>> passed through Mesopotamia to Persia and
                              > Parsee
                              > >> religion
                              > >>>> (with Ahura Mazda in the disc; this is
                              > denied, and
                              > >> I do not
                              > >>>> know what the truth is), but George
                              > Mendenhall
                              > >> (Tenth
                              > >>>> Generation) reported one from Anatolia
                              > with the
                              > >> head of
                              > >>>> Jesus Christ in the disc.
                              > >>>>
                              > >>>> The estimated birthdate of
                              > >>>> the Buddha I
                              > >>>> saw a good argument for putting Gautama at
                              > the
                              > >> same time,
                              > >>>> 580 -500 (he lived 80 years)
                              > >>>> Brian CollessMassey University,
                              > >>>> NZ
                              > >>>> maintained
                              > >>>> by various Buddhist communities range over
                              > 177
                              > >> years from
                              > >>>> 624 to 447BCE.  Although the 563 is
                              > most
                              > >> commonly,
                              > >>>> there are good arguments that he lived
                              > between
                              > >>>> 463-383BCE by which time the Achaemenid
                              > satrapies
                              > >> in
                              > >>>> Gandhara (eponymous  Kandahar) had
                              > been in
                              > >> existence
                              > >>>> for several decades. There is also a body
                              > of
                              > >> (admittedly
                              > >>>> anecdotal) evidence to suggest that
                              > Siddartha
                              > >> Gautama spent
                              > >>>> some years practising meditation prior to
                              > his
                              > >>>> Enlightenment in what is today southern
                              > >>>> Afghanistan.
                              > >>>>
                              > >>>> According to Diringer the
                              > >>>> Karoshthi script had arrived in north
                              > western
                              > >> India by
                              > >>>> the 5th century - and the oldest extant
                              > Buddhist
                              > >> Gandhari
                              > >>>> canon  is written that script, 
                              > However
                              > >> most
                              > >>>> Buddhist traditions were oral - and not
                              > put to
                              > >>>> writing, in Brahmi, until the time of
                              > Ashoka, 3rd
                              > >>>> century.
                              > >>>>
                              > >>>> Graham Hagens
                              > >>>> Hamilton
                              > >>>>
                              > >>>> --- On Thu, 5/20/10, Brian
                              > >>>> Colless <briancolless@...>
                              > >>>> wrote:
                              > >>>>
                              > >>>> From: Brian Colless <briancolless@...>
                              > >>>> Subject: [ANE-2] Achaemenid
                              > >>>> period creativity
                              > >>>> To: ANE-2@yahoogroups.com
                              > >>>> Date: Thursday, May 20, 2010,
                              > >>>> 8:39 AM
                              > >>>>
                              > >>>>
                              > >>>>
                              > >>>> On 17/05/2010, at 1:54 AM,
                              > >>>> Graham Hagens wrote:
                              > >>>>
                              > >>>>> That two century Achaemenid
                              > >>>> period was arguably one of the most
                              > >>>>> creative in the long
                              > >>>> history of what we like to call
                              > civilization.
                              > >>>>>
                              > >>>> Yes, it has been called 'the
                              > >>>> axial period'.
                              > >>>>
                              > >>>> I had never thought of the
                              > >>>> Akhaemenid connection for the Indian
                              > >>>> movements, only the question
                              > >>>> whether Zarathushtra's protector Kavi
                              > >>>> Vishtaspa was the same ruler as
                              > >>>> the father of Darius the Great (Greek
                              > >>>> Hystaspes).
                              > >>>>
                              > >>>> I always thought the Buddha
                              > >>>> belonged around 500, but I did not think
                              > >>>> of an Iranian connection.
                              > >>>>
                              > >>>> I am wondering now whether this
                              > >>>> is when the Indian scripts begin,
                              > >>>> based on the Aramaic alphabet.
                              > >>>> Is this something you considered?
                              > >>>>
                              > >>>> Brian Colless
                              > >>>>
                              > >>>> Massey Univrsity, NZ
                              > >>>>
                              > >>>>> In a forthcoming article in
                              > >>>> the classics journal Mouseion I argue
                              > >>>>> that the Achaemenid
                              > >>>> satrapies in Gandhara played a pivotal
                              > role in
                              > >>>>> the emergence of western
                              > >>>> and eastern (Greek, Buddhist, Upanishad,
                              > >>>>> Jain) philosophies.
                              > >>>> Syncretic evidence supports the seldom
                              > cited 5th
                              > >>>>> century BCE chronology of
                              > >>>> Siddartha Gautama and major Upanishad
                              > >>>>> teachers suggesting that
                              > >>>> they like Herodotus, Democritus, Isaiah
                              > II/
                              > >>>>> III, Nehemiah etc. were all
                              > >>>> at one time subjects of the same empire,
                              > >>>>> and enjoyed similar degress
                              > >>>> of freedom to explore new ideas.
                              > >>>>>
                              > >>>>> Graham Hagens
                              > >>>>> Hamilton
                              > >>>>>
                              > >>>>
                              > >>>> [Non-text portions of this
                              > >>>> message have been removed]
                              > >>>>
                              > >>>> [Non-text portions of this
                              > >>>> message have been removed]
                              > >>>>
                              > >>>>
                              > >>>>
                              > >>>
                              > >>>
                              > >>>
                              > >>
                              > >>
                              > >
                              > >
                              > >
                              >
                              >
                            • Graham Hagens
                              ... . Most scholars now date the death of the historical Buddha (once again, *if* he was a historical character, which is not granted at all!) to around 400
                              Message 14 of 16 , Jun 2, 2010
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                                --- On Sat, 5/29/10, Francesco Brighenti <frabrig@...> wrote:


                                .>Most scholars now date the death of the "historical" Buddha (once again, *if* he was a >historical character, which is not granted at all!) to around 400 BCE or a little later.
                                >The "new dating" of the Buddha, on which a consensus was arrived at on the occasion of >a colloquium held in 1988 under the auspices of H. Bechert (see H. Bechert, ed., _The >Dating of the Historical Buddha / Die Datierung des Historischen Buddha_, Göttingen, >Vandenhoeck & Ruprecht, 1991-2), implies that the Buddha's period of teaching activity >was in the second half of the 5th c. BCE, perhaps extending into the first quarter of the >4th c. BCE -- see at

                                 
                                Francesco, thank you very much for this reference - it supports the theme of my forthcoming article, but I had missed it.  Hopefully not too late to make an insertion. 
                                One more example of why this forum is so valuable.
                                 
                                I'm not sure about  'most scholars' now supporting the 5th century dating, however. The traditional 6th century dating still appears to be very popular.
                                 
                                Graham Hagens
                                Hamilton, ON


                                From: Francesco Brighenti <frabrig@...>
                                Subject: [ANE-2] Re: Achaemenid period creativity
                                To: ANE-2@yahoogroups.com
                                Date: Saturday, May 29, 2010, 12:23 PM


                                 





                                Dear Brian,

                                You write:

                                > [T]his discussion has inspired me to put my teaching materials on
                                > Zoroastrianism onto the web, adding an ANCIENT PERSIA section to:
                                >
                                > [ http://sites.google.com/site/collesseum/iranian-documents ]
                                >
                                > [...]
                                >
                                > Here are two relevant extracts from my notes:
                                >
                                > "The lifetime of Zarathushtra -- This is not known. Was it the
                                > sixth century B.C.E., or was it much earlier? [...] [S]ome scholars
                                > (notably Mary Boyce) suggest [...] that the prophet belongs in the
                                > second millennium B.C.E."

                                Forget about the 6th c. BCE date. This is excluded, _in primis_, on linguistic grounds:

                                http://iranica.com/articles/zoroaster-iii-zoroaster-in-the-avesta
                                "As a result of such linguistic arguments, we can rule out with certainty that Zaraθuštra was a contemporary of the early Achaemenids, because the language of the Avesta does not allow such a late date."

                                Zaraθuštra is mentioned several times in all five Gâthâs (the oldest Avestan texts) and, therefore, *if* he was a historical character, he must be coeval with them. The Old Avestan period was roughly "contemporary with the reign of the Hittite king Hattusilis (ca. 1300) and the Mycenean Greek culture (1600-1100)" -- see O.P. Skjærvø at

                                http://blagoverie.org/files/385/oldavestanprimer.pdf
                                (pp. IX-X in the paper)

                                See also Skjærvø's discussions of the historicity vs. non-historicity of Zaraθuštra at

                                http://tinyurl.com/328x9j
                                (pp. 52-56 in the paper)

                                and at

                                http://www.safarmer.com/Indo-Eurasian/Skjaervo.pdf
                                (pp. 9-11 and 20-25 in the paper)

                                > I saw a good argument for putting Gautama at the same time, 580-500
                                > (he lived 80 years).http://indology.info/papers/cousins/node4.shtml

                                and at

                                http://www.buddhistethics.org/15/prebish-article.pdf

                                Kindest regards,
                                Francesco Brighenti
                                Venezia











                                [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                              • Don Mills
                                ... Archaizing language can be used in sacred contexts, as happened in  ancient Egypt, for example (and in the Book of Mormon). ... At risk of being
                                Message 15 of 16 , Jun 17, 2010
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                                  Brian Colless (whose postings I always enjoy, especially as a fellow Kiwi.  Hey, we thrashed Slovakia, 1-all!) wrote:

                                  -----<snip>-----
                                  Archaizing language can be used in sacred contexts, as happened in 
                                  ancient Egypt, for example (and in the Book of Mormon).
                                  -----<snip to end>-----

                                  At risk of being off-topic: the language of the good ol' St James Version ( :-) ) of the Bible, published 1611, was also archaising.

                                  (The language of the Revised Version was unintelligible.)

                                  -- Don Mills,
                                  London

                                  [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                                • jgibson000@comcast.net
                                  ... *St *James version??? New one on me, and I thought I knew most of the English translations! Jeffrey -- Jeffrey B. Gibson, D.Phil. (Oxon) 1500 W. Pratt
                                  Message 16 of 16 , Jun 17, 2010
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                                    On 6/17/2010 2:46 PM, Don Mills wrote:
                                    > Brian Colless (whose postings I always enjoy, especially as a fellow Kiwi. Hey, we thrashed Slovakia, 1-all!) wrote:
                                    >
                                    > -----<snip>-----
                                    > Archaizing language can be used in sacred contexts, as happened in
                                    > ancient Egypt, for example (and in the Book of Mormon).
                                    > -----<snip to end>-----
                                    >
                                    > At risk of being off-topic: the language of the good ol' St James Version ( :-) ) of the Bible, published 1611, was also archaising.
                                    >
                                    *St *James version???

                                    New one on me, and I thought I knew most of the English translations!

                                    Jeffrey

                                    --
                                    Jeffrey B. Gibson, D.Phil. (Oxon)
                                    1500 W. Pratt Blvd.
                                    Chicago, Illinois
                                    e-mail jgibson000@...
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