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SV: SV: [ANE-2] "Heroic Age"?

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  • Niels Peter Lemche
    Dear Victor, in one of the side wings. I do not know the geography that well. Several years since I was there the last time. My own adage is that scholarly
    Message 1 of 5 , Mar 18 12:03 AM
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      Dear Victor,

      in one of the side wings. I do not know the geography that well. Several years since I was there the last time.

      My own adage is that scholarly disagreement should not prevent you from having a beer together. Thus I really likes Malamat and had the feeling from a splendid party in his home that it was mutual. Neither should you be surprised if you one day see me and Dever sharing a lunch together. We have done it a number of times.

      But slowly slowly we are slipping into a "heroic age" ourselves ...

      Niels Peter Lemche

      -----Oprindelig meddelelse-----
      Fra: ANE-2@yahoogroups.com [mailto:ANE-2@yahoogroups.com] På vegne af victor avigdor hurowitz
      Sendt: den 18 mars 2010 07:58
      Til: ANE-2@yahoogroups.com
      Emne: Re: SV: [ANE-2] "Heroic Age"?

      I was at the 1984 conference but my memory fogs on this one. Were the
      talks you mention at the Keneset in the lobby?

      And no, there don't seem to be any like them around any more. But your
      description of their rivalry reminds me of stories I had heard from Jonas
      Greenfield z"l about Benno Landsberger (don't forget, his birthday is 21
      April) and Julius Levy who were bitter academic foes but never missed an
      opportunity to share a beer. In fact Jonas advised me after telling me
      about Landsberger and Levy that to improve
      myself I should get an enemy. Unfortunately I don't think I've been
      successful at that (or at least I haven't tried) so I remain what I am.
      Victor Hurowitz

      On Thu, 18 Mar 2010, Niels Peter Lemche wrote:

      > Hello both,
      > It was widely known that Kramer and Thorkild disagreed on everything but ... They were great guys. At the morning session at the first day of the RAI in Copenhagen in 1979 after every lecture Kramer stood up and gave a lecture, then immediately after Jacobsen entered the discussion disagreeing with anything Kramer said. They went on in this way until lunch, terrorizing the conference. There I saw at a table for two Kramer sitting waiting, and Thorkild arriving carrying a load of beers (after all he was a Dane!). Then they sat down to plan the afternoon. I got the feeling that they really were on very good terms.
      > Maybe Victor was also at the occasion at the Knesset back at the first archaeological congress in Jerusalem (1984?), when Jacobsen and Kramer was both expected to lecture before the drinks. Jacobsen spoke for an hour and a half, and of course Kramer would not stand down to this. At around 11 in the evening I left and several other people at the same time -- without drinks.
      > Do we have that kind of people anymore?
      > Niels Peter Lemche
      > -----Oprindelig meddelelse-----
      > Fra: ANE-2@yahoogroups.com [mailto:ANE-2@yahoogroups.com] PÃ¥ vegne af victor avigdor hurowitz
      > Sendt: den 18 mars 2010 06:56
      > Til: Peter T. Daniels
      > Cc: ANE-2 list
      > Emne: Re: [ANE-2] "Heroic Age"?
      > Hello Peter,
      > I can't answer your question (but see Hallo and Simpson's History for
      > a Heroic Age in what looked to me at the time a biblification of
      > Mesopotamian history/historiography), but I'm happy to see that you use
      > Kramer's original
      > name Simcha Noach. Just for the record, he autographed my copy of his The
      > Sumerians as Samuel Zi-u-sud-ra (in cuneiform) Kramer.
      > Best,
      > Victor Hurowitz
      > BGU
      > On Wed, 17 Mar 2010, Peter T. Daniels wrote:
      > > On the way back from St. Louis, I read the first 1/3 or so of Simcha Noach Kramer's autobiography. He says that his approach to Sumerian literature was deeply influenced by the notion of "Heroic Age" posited by the Chadwicks in their 3-volume history of world literature (ca. 1940), as evidenced in Homeric, Indic, and Teutonic epic: there was an actual historic period in each civilization, preceding the period that experienced kingship, which resulted in the composition of heroic epic. Was such a belief widespread in literary theory at that time (i.e., were they influential, or were they regarded as a lunatic fringe)? Were similar notions found in histor(iograph)y at the time? Doesn't that mean that Kramer's interpreations of Sumerian literature are, or should have been, a bit suspect? Did Jacobsen, whom I understood to be opposed to him on just about everything relating to Sumerian literature, react explicitly to this theoretical framework?
      > >
      > > (And, since if I don't throw this in, I'm not likely to get any response at all, did the theory have any echoes in biblical scholarship?) --
      > > Peter T. Daniels grammatim@...
      > >
      > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
      > >
      > >
      > ------------------------------------
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