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Re: [ANE-2] Children under the floor

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  • Paola Raffetta
    According to legend, Merlin, when an orphan infant, was about to be walled into the king s castle/city foundations. Somehow he managed to survive (luckily, for
    Message 1 of 16 , Feb 23, 2010
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      According to legend, Merlin, when an orphan infant, was about to be walled
      into the king's castle/city foundations. Somehow he managed to survive
      (luckily, for good old Arthur), so a dog was used, instead.
      I remembered this, that could be completely unrelated, or maybe constitute a
      late echo?
      Interesting question!
      Paola Raffetta

      On Tue, Feb 23, 2010 at 9:05 PM, <sbudin@...> wrote:

      > Dear All,
      >
      > Several years ago I was reading an old (1940s?) book on
      > Mesopotamian archaeology wherein the author claimed that the
      > Mesopotamians consecrated their new houses by means of child
      > sacrifice. Specifically, archaeologists had discovered human infant
      > (and dog)skeletons in pots under domestic structures, and the
      > archaeologist decided that this was evidence for a kind of child
      > sacrifice. Unfortunately, I no longer remember the work I was
      > reading. By any chance does this sound familiar to anyone on the
      > list? Could anyone please remind me of the book or the author, or
      > even the archaeologist who entertained this notion?
      >
      > Many thanks in advance!
      > Stephanie Budin
      > Rutgers University, Camden
      >
      >
      >
      > "Maybe we can link up with someone who's meditating and download
      > enlightenment!" -Tachikoma
      >
      >
      >
      > ------------------------------------
      >
      > Yahoo! Groups Links
      >
      >
      >
      >


      --
      http://www.paolaraffetta.com.ar/
      ------------------------------------------


      [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
    • victor avigdor hurowitz
      I don t know what this thread about and I might be a bit out of date but if you are interested in child burials as foundation deposits in Mesopotamia and in a
      Message 2 of 16 , Feb 23, 2010
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        I don't know what this thread about and I might be a bit out of date but
        if you are interested in child burials as foundation deposits in
        Mesopotamia and in a source which is a real book and not an electronic
        publication try R. Ellis, Foundation Deposits in Ancient Mesopotamia (YNER
        2; New Haven and London: Yale, 1968), pp. 35-45
        Victor Hurowitz
        BGU


        On Wed, 24 Feb 2010, Lampros F. Kallenos wrote:

        > A search with the terms mentioned (mesopotamia child
        > sacrifice floor house) led to International Standard Bible
        > Encyclopaedia:
        >
        > http://tinyurl.com/yzmkx5j
        >
        > Searching for "child foundation sacrifice", a term that came
        > up in the previous search, leads to only one result,
        > something promising in English:
        >
        > The Royal-Dynastic Ideology of the House of David; 6. The
        > House of David ...... child foundation sacrifice in
        > northeastern Mesopotamia from the Uruk Period ...
        > http://www.reference-global.com/doi/abs/10.1515/zatw.1977.89.3.447
        >
        >
        > But the link leads to a German book --which I can't read:
        >
        > A last effort with
        >
        > child foundation sacrifice floor house
        >
        > http://tinyurl.com/yfagfza
        >
        > might prove the most promising.
        >
        >
        > _____________________________
        > Lampros F. Kallenos
        > Idalion, Lefkosia
        > Kypros
        > --
        >
      • George F Somsel
        There is a rather well-known combination of passages including Josh 6.26 26 Joshua then pronounced this oath, saying, Cursed before the Lord be anyone who
        Message 3 of 16 , Feb 23, 2010
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          There is a rather well-known combination of passages including Josh 6.26
          26 Joshua then pronounced this oath, saying,
          "Cursed before the Lord be anyone who tries
          to build this city—this Jericho!
          At the cost of his firstborn he shall lay its foundation,

               
          In his days Hiel of Bethel built Jericho; he laid its foundation at the cost of Abiram his firstborn, and set up its gates at the cost of his youngest son Segub, according to the word of the Lord, which he spoke by Joshua son of Nun.
          In this it  doesn't specifically connect this act with child sacrifice, but I think the implication is clear.  Having said that, I would be hesitant to connect all such burials with foundation sacrifices.  It is a not uncommon practice of many to bury a beloved pet in a special place on one's property, and such burials may be nothing more than a memorial of the dead.

           george
          gfsomsel


          … search for truth, hear truth,
          learn truth, love truth, speak the truth, hold the truth,
          defend the truth till death.


          - Jan Hus
          _________




          ________________________________
          From: "sbudin@..." <sbudin@...>
          To: ANE-2@yahoogroups.com
          Sent: Tue, February 23, 2010 5:05:13 PM
          Subject: [ANE-2] Children under the floor

           
          Dear All,

          Several years ago I was reading an old (1940s?) book on
          Mesopotamian archaeology wherein the author claimed that the
          Mesopotamians consecrated their new houses by means of child
          sacrifice. Specifically, archaeologists had discovered human infant
          (and dog)skeletons in pots under domestic structures, and the
          archaeologist decided that this was evidence for a kind of child
          sacrifice. Unfortunately, I no longer remember the work I was
          reading. By any chance does this sound familiar to anyone on the
          list? Could anyone please remind me of the book or the author, or
          even the archaeologist who entertained this notion?

          Many thanks in advance!
          Stephanie Budin
          Rutgers University, Camden

          "Maybe we can link up with someone who's meditating and download
          enlightenment! " -Tachikoma


          and 1 Kg 16.34




          [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
        • Joe Zias
          Children underneath the floor as well as adults go back to the pre-historic periods. (Natufian) Joe Zias www.joezias.com Anthropology/Paleopathology Science
          Message 4 of 16 , Feb 24, 2010
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            Children underneath the floor as well as adults go back to the pre-historic periods. (Natufian)

            Joe Zias www.joezias.com
            Anthropology/Paleopathology

            Science and Antiquity Group - Jerusalem
            Jerusalem, Israel

            --- On Tue, 2/23/10, George F Somsel <gfsomsel@...> wrote:

            From: George F Somsel <gfsomsel@...>
            Subject: Re: [ANE-2] Children under the floor
            To: ANE-2@yahoogroups.com
            Date: Tuesday, February 23, 2010, 10:20 PM







             









            There is a rather well-known combination of passages including Josh 6.26

            26 Joshua then pronounced this oath, saying,

            "Cursed before the Lord be anyone who tries

            to build this city—this Jericho!

            At the cost of his firstborn he shall lay its foundation,



                 

            In his days Hiel of Bethel built Jericho; he laid its foundation at the cost of Abiram his firstborn, and set up its gates at the cost of his youngest son Segub, according to the word of the Lord, which he spoke by Joshua son of Nun.

            In this it  doesn't specifically connect this act with child sacrifice, but I think the implication is clear.  Having said that, I would be hesitant to connect all such burials with foundation sacrifices.  It is a not uncommon practice of many to bury a beloved pet in a special place on one's property, and such burials may be nothing more than a memorial of the dead.



             george

            gfsomsel



            … search for truth, hear truth,

            learn truth, love truth, speak the truth, hold the truth,

            defend the truth till death.



            - Jan Hus

            _________



            ____________ _________ _________ __

            From: "sbudin@camden. rutgers.edu" <sbudin@camden. rutgers.edu>

            To: ANE-2@yahoogroups. com

            Sent: Tue, February 23, 2010 5:05:13 PM

            Subject: [ANE-2] Children under the floor



             

            Dear All,



            Several years ago I was reading an old (1940s?) book on

            Mesopotamian archaeology wherein the author claimed that the

            Mesopotamians consecrated their new houses by means of child

            sacrifice. Specifically, archaeologists had discovered human infant

            (and dog)skeletons in pots under domestic structures, and the

            archaeologist decided that this was evidence for a kind of child

            sacrifice. Unfortunately, I no longer remember the work I was

            reading. By any chance does this sound familiar to anyone on the

            list? Could anyone please remind me of the book or the author, or

            even the archaeologist who entertained this notion?



            Many thanks in advance!

            Stephanie Budin

            Rutgers University, Camden



            "Maybe we can link up with someone who's meditating and download

            enlightenment! " -Tachikoma



            and 1 Kg 16.34



            [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]






















            [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
          • Trudy Kawami
            For a number of examples of burials, not sacrifices, in a residential setting, see the reports from Catal Hoyuk (Neolithic Anatolia).
            Message 5 of 16 , Feb 24, 2010
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              For a number of examples of burials, not sacrifices, in a residential
              setting, see the reports from Catal Hoyuk (Neolithic Anatolia).



              http://www.catalhoyuk.com/newsletters/12/nl12_10.html



              I think that the assumption that house burials, especially of children,
              were sacrifices, is more Victorian drama than reality.

              Trudy Kawami



              ________________________________

              From: ANE-2@yahoogroups.com [mailto:ANE-2@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of
              Joe Zias
              Sent: Wednesday, February 24, 2010 6:05 AM
              To: ANE-2@yahoogroups.com
              Subject: Re: [ANE-2] Children under the floor





              Children underneath the floor as well as adults go back to the
              pre-historic periods. (Natufian)

              Joe Zias www.joezias.com
              Anthropology/Paleopathology

              Science and Antiquity Group - Jerusalem
              Jerusalem, Israel

              --- On Tue, 2/23/10, George F Somsel <gfsomsel@...
              <mailto:gfsomsel%40yahoo.com> > wrote:

              From: George F Somsel <gfsomsel@... <mailto:gfsomsel%40yahoo.com>
              >
              Subject: Re: [ANE-2] Children under the floor
              To: ANE-2@yahoogroups.com <mailto:ANE-2%40yahoogroups.com>
              Date: Tuesday, February 23, 2010, 10:20 PM



              There is a rather well-known combination of passages including Josh 6.26

              26 Joshua then pronounced this oath, saying,

              "Cursed before the Lord be anyone who tries

              to build this city-this Jericho!

              At the cost of his firstborn he shall lay its foundation,



              In his days Hiel of Bethel built Jericho; he laid its foundation at the
              cost of Abiram his firstborn, and set up its gates at the cost of his
              youngest son Segub, according to the word of the Lord, which he spoke by
              Joshua son of Nun.

              In this it doesn't specifically connect this act with child sacrifice,
              but I think the implication is clear. Having said that, I would be
              hesitant to connect all such burials with foundation sacrifices. It is
              a not uncommon practice of many to bury a beloved pet in a special place
              on one's property, and such burials may be nothing more than a memorial
              of the dead.

              george

              gfsomsel

              ... search for truth, hear truth,

              learn truth, love truth, speak the truth, hold the truth,

              defend the truth till death.

              - Jan Hus

              _________

              ____________ _________ _________ __

              From: "sbudin@camden. rutgers.edu" <sbudin@camden. rutgers.edu>

              To: ANE-2@yahoogroups. com

              Sent: Tue, February 23, 2010 5:05:13 PM

              Subject: [ANE-2] Children under the floor



              Dear All,

              Several years ago I was reading an old (1940s?) book on

              Mesopotamian archaeology wherein the author claimed that the

              Mesopotamians consecrated their new houses by means of child

              sacrifice. Specifically, archaeologists had discovered human infant

              (and dog)skeletons in pots under domestic structures, and the

              archaeologist decided that this was evidence for a kind of child

              sacrifice. Unfortunately, I no longer remember the work I was

              reading. By any chance does this sound familiar to anyone on the

              list? Could anyone please remind me of the book or the author, or

              even the archaeologist who entertained this notion?

              Many thanks in advance!

              Stephanie Budin

              Rutgers University, Camden

              "Maybe we can link up with someone who's meditating and download

              enlightenment! " -Tachikoma

              and 1 Kg 16.34

              [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

              [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]





              [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
            • sbudin@camden.rutgers.edu
              Many, many thanks to everyone who replied to my query! Perhaps I should offer a tad more explanation. My interest in the topic is in how researchers,
              Message 6 of 16 , Feb 24, 2010
              • 0 Attachment
                Many, many thanks to everyone who replied to my query! Perhaps I
                should offer a tad more explanation.
                My interest in the topic is in how researchers, archaeologists,
                scholars in general interpret data, especially in how they form
                patterns with their data. So, in this instance, you have references
                to child sacrifice in the Bible, the belief in the Tophet, etc., and
                this leads to a belief in a wide-spread practice of child sacrifice.
                Thus, when an archaeologists finds child bones under a house, rather
                than thinking of intermural burial (a common practice), he comes up
                with ritual sacrifice.
                So, no, I do not think that these were cases of child sacrifice.
                But I am interested in how someone else would come up with that notion.

                Stephanie Budin




                Quoting Trudy Kawami <tkawami@...>:

                > For a number of examples of burials, not sacrifices, in a residential
                > setting, see the reports from Catal Hoyuk (Neolithic Anatolia).
                >
                >
                >
                > http://www.catalhoyuk.com/newsletters/12/nl12_10.html
                >
                >
                >
                > I think that the assumption that house burials, especially of children,
                > were sacrifices, is more Victorian drama than reality.
                >
                > Trudy Kawami
                >
                >
                >
                > ________________________________
                >
                > From: ANE-2@yahoogroups.com [mailto:ANE-2@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of
                > Joe Zias
                > Sent: Wednesday, February 24, 2010 6:05 AM
                > To: ANE-2@yahoogroups.com
                > Subject: Re: [ANE-2] Children under the floor
                >
                >
                >
                >
                >
                > Children underneath the floor as well as adults go back to the
                > pre-historic periods. (Natufian)
                >
                > Joe Zias www.joezias.com
                > Anthropology/Paleopathology
                >
                > Science and Antiquity Group - Jerusalem
                > Jerusalem, Israel
                >
                > --- On Tue, 2/23/10, George F Somsel <gfsomsel@...
                > <mailto:gfsomsel%40yahoo.com> > wrote:
                >
                > From: George F Somsel <gfsomsel@... <mailto:gfsomsel%40yahoo.com>
                >>
                > Subject: Re: [ANE-2] Children under the floor
                > To: ANE-2@yahoogroups.com <mailto:ANE-2%40yahoogroups.com>
                > Date: Tuesday, February 23, 2010, 10:20 PM
                >
                >
                >
                > There is a rather well-known combination of passages including Josh 6.26
                >
                > 26 Joshua then pronounced this oath, saying,
                >
                > "Cursed before the Lord be anyone who tries
                >
                > to build this city-this Jericho!
                >
                > At the cost of his firstborn he shall lay its foundation,
                >
                >
                >
                > In his days Hiel of Bethel built Jericho; he laid its foundation at the
                > cost of Abiram his firstborn, and set up its gates at the cost of his
                > youngest son Segub, according to the word of the Lord, which he spoke by
                > Joshua son of Nun.
                >
                > In this it doesn't specifically connect this act with child sacrifice,
                > but I think the implication is clear. Having said that, I would be
                > hesitant to connect all such burials with foundation sacrifices. It is
                > a not uncommon practice of many to bury a beloved pet in a special place
                > on one's property, and such burials may be nothing more than a memorial
                > of the dead.
                >
                > george
                >
                > gfsomsel
                >
                > ... search for truth, hear truth,
                >
                > learn truth, love truth, speak the truth, hold the truth,
                >
                > defend the truth till death.
                >
                > - Jan Hus
                >
                > _________
                >
                > ____________ _________ _________ __
                >
                > From: "sbudin@camden. rutgers.edu" <sbudin@camden. rutgers.edu>
                >
                > To: ANE-2@yahoogroups. com
                >
                > Sent: Tue, February 23, 2010 5:05:13 PM
                >
                > Subject: [ANE-2] Children under the floor
                >
                >
                >
                > Dear All,
                >
                > Several years ago I was reading an old (1940s?) book on
                >
                > Mesopotamian archaeology wherein the author claimed that the
                >
                > Mesopotamians consecrated their new houses by means of child
                >
                > sacrifice. Specifically, archaeologists had discovered human infant
                >
                > (and dog)skeletons in pots under domestic structures, and the
                >
                > archaeologist decided that this was evidence for a kind of child
                >
                > sacrifice. Unfortunately, I no longer remember the work I was
                >
                > reading. By any chance does this sound familiar to anyone on the
                >
                > list? Could anyone please remind me of the book or the author, or
                >
                > even the archaeologist who entertained this notion?
                >
                > Many thanks in advance!
                >
                > Stephanie Budin
                >
                > Rutgers University, Camden
                >
                > "Maybe we can link up with someone who's meditating and download
                >
                > enlightenment! " -Tachikoma
                >
                > and 1 Kg 16.34
                >
                > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                >
                > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                >
                >
                >
                >
                >
                > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                >
                >
                >
                > ------------------------------------
                >
                > Yahoo! Groups Links
                >
                >
                >
                >



                "Maybe we can link up with someone who's meditating and download
                enlightenment!" -Tachikoma
              • eliot braun
                There are numerous instances of children, and adults, buried under floors of houses from the Epipaleolithic period onwards. The spin of child sacrifice may be
                Message 7 of 16 , Feb 24, 2010
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                  There are numerous instances of children, and adults, buried under floors of houses from the Epipaleolithic period onwards. The spin of child sacrifice may be more speculation than fact. That seems to be the case for the "child sacrifices" of Carthage, just recently relegated to the realm of fiction. In any event the literature is replete with them. Major periods when this was relatively frequent are Neolithic, Middle Bronze II, but there is evidence from other periods as well.

                  Eliot Braun, Ph D
                  Sr. Fellow WF Albright Institute of Archaeological Research, Jerusalem
                  Associate Researcher Centre de Recherche Français de Jérusalem
                  PO Box 21, Har Adar 90836 Israel
                  Tel 972-2-5345687, Cell 972-50-2231096

                  --- On Wed, 2/24/10, sbudin@... <sbudin@...> wrote:


                  From: sbudin@... <sbudin@...>
                  Subject: [ANE-2] Children under the floor
                  To: ANE-2@yahoogroups.com
                  Date: Wednesday, February 24, 2010, 2:05 AM


                   



                  Dear All,

                  Several years ago I was reading an old (1940s?) book on
                  Mesopotamian archaeology wherein the author claimed that the
                  Mesopotamians consecrated their new houses by means of child
                  sacrifice. Specifically, archaeologists had discovered human infant
                  (and dog)skeletons in pots under domestic structures, and the
                  archaeologist decided that this was evidence for a kind of child
                  sacrifice. Unfortunately, I no longer remember the work I was
                  reading. By any chance does this sound familiar to anyone on the
                  list? Could anyone please remind me of the book or the author, or
                  even the archaeologist who entertained this notion?

                  Many thanks in advance!
                  Stephanie Budin
                  Rutgers University, Camden

                  "Maybe we can link up with someone who's meditating and download
                  enlightenment! " -Tachikoma











                  [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                • Max Dashu
                  Yes, i ve read archaeological reports of this (burials, especially of children, under floors or under eaves of houses) from neolithic Anatolia, Iraq, Iran and
                  Message 8 of 16 , Feb 24, 2010
                  • 0 Attachment
                    Yes, i've read archaeological reports of this (burials, especially of
                    children, under floors or under eaves of houses) from neolithic
                    Anatolia, Iraq, Iran and across to the western foothills of Indus. It
                    also occurred in later periods, as late as Iron Age in parts of
                    Spain, and into medieval in Basque country. The "child sacrifice"
                    assumption definitely needs to be rethought.

                    Max Dashu

                    >There are numerous instances of children, and adults, buried under
                    >floors of houses from the Epipaleolithic period onwards. The spin of
                    >child sacrifice may be more speculation than fact. That seems to be
                    >the case for the "child sacrifices" of Carthage, just recently
                    >relegated to the realm of fiction. In any event the literature is
                    >replete with them. Major periods when this was relatively frequent
                    >are Neolithic, Middle Bronze II, but there is evidence from other
                    >periods as well.
                    >
                    >Eliot Braun, Ph D


                    --
                    Max Dashu
                    Suppressed Histories Archives
                    http://www.suppressedhistories.net
                  • Trudy Kawami
                    Um, I think there is a typo here. Could you explain eaves burials (or is it thresholds) ? Trudy Kawami ________________________________ From:
                    Message 9 of 16 , Feb 25, 2010
                    • 0 Attachment
                      Um, I think there is a typo here. Could you explain "eaves burials" (or
                      is it thresholds) ?

                      Trudy Kawami



                      ________________________________

                      From: ANE-2@yahoogroups.com [mailto:ANE-2@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of
                      Max Dashu
                      Sent: Wednesday, February 24, 2010 7:03 PM
                      To: ANE-2@yahoogroups.com
                      Subject: Re: [ANE-2] Children under the floor

                      Yes, i've read archaeological reports of this (burials, especially of
                      children, under floors or under eaves of houses) from neolithic
                      Anatolia, Iraq,

                      [SNIP].

                      Max Dashu
                      Suppressed Histories Archives
                      http://www.suppressedhistories.net <http://www.suppressedhistories.net>





                      [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                    • Max Dashu
                      Not a typo, but not explained very well. Just repeated a phrase i ve seen in the literature. They don t mean aerial burials, but in the ground just outside the
                      Message 10 of 16 , Feb 25, 2010
                      • 0 Attachment
                        Not a typo, but not explained very well. Just repeated a phrase i've
                        seen in the literature. They don't mean aerial burials, but in the
                        ground just outside the house walls, under the roof overhang. I don't
                        remember seeing references to threshhold burials but they may well
                        exist.

                        >Um, I think there is a typo here. Could you explain "eaves burials" (or
                        >is it thresholds) ?

                        --
                        Max Dashu
                        Suppressed Histories Archives
                        http://www.suppressedhistories.net
                      • Dolores Delgado
                        Au contraire - I just finished a research paper this last summer, and am currently reading what is classified as the best history of the Phoenicians: The
                        Message 11 of 16 , Mar 13, 2010
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                          Au contraire - I just finished a research paper this last summer, and am
                          currently reading what is classified as the best history of the Phoenicians:



                          The Phoenicians

                          Donald Harden, 1981, The Chaucer Press, Bungay, Suffolk.it's out of print,
                          but you can find old copies thru Amazon.com



                          The work of Lawrence Stager is extensive, and I don't know if he's still
                          alive.

                          Stager, Lawrence. "Child Sacrifice at Carthage: Religious Rite or Population
                          Control: Archaeological Evidence Provides Basis for a New Analysis". The
                          Biblical Archaeology Review. 10 (1984): 31-eoa.



                          Heider, George C. The Cult of Molek A Reassessment. Sheffield: JSOT Press,
                          1985. A reprint has just been made available. His work needs to be updated
                          as so much more has been discovered/discerned.



                          Omri Boehm, in his article "Child Sacrifice, Ethical Responsibility and the
                          existence of the People of Israel". Vetus Testamentum. LIV, 2. (2004).
                          145-156.

                          There are other sources I used, trying to point to the dating and
                          relationship to the story of the Sacrifice of Isaac in the Bible, Genesis
                          22. I drew upon archaeological finds at Ketef Hinnom, the Incirli Stela,
                          Qumran, and the Qeiyafa Ostracon. Good luck. Let me know if you have any
                          more questions. I hope to further expand on this topic in a later
                          paper/dissertation.





                          Dolores Delgado

                          Religious Studies and Philosophy, B.A.

                          Marylhurst University

                          Portland, OR

                          -----Original Message-----
                          From: ANE-2@yahoogroups.com [mailto:ANE-2@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of
                          sbudin@...
                          Sent: Wednesday, February 24, 2010 8:15 AM
                          To: ANE-2@yahoogroups.com
                          Subject: RE: [ANE-2] Children under the floor





                          Many, many thanks to everyone who replied to my query! Perhaps I
                          should offer a tad more explanation.
                          My interest in the topic is in how researchers, archaeologists,
                          scholars in general interpret data, especially in how they form
                          patterns with their data. So, in this instance, you have references
                          to child sacrifice in the Bible, the belief in the Tophet, etc., and
                          this leads to a belief in a wide-spread practice of child sacrifice.
                          Thus, when an archaeologists finds child bones under a house, rather
                          than thinking of intermural burial (a common practice), he comes up
                          with ritual sacrifice.
                          So, no, I do not think that these were cases of child sacrifice.
                          But I am interested in how someone else would come up with that notion.

                          Stephanie Budin

                          Quoting Trudy Kawami <tkawami@arthurmsack
                          <mailto:tkawami%40arthurmsacklerfdn.org> lerfdn.org>:

                          > For a number of examples of burials, not sacrifices, in a residential
                          > setting, see the reports from Catal Hoyuk (Neolithic Anatolia).
                          >
                          >
                          >
                          > http://www.catalhoy
                          <http://www.catalhoyuk.com/newsletters/12/nl12_10.html>
                          uk.com/newsletters/12/nl12_10.html
                          >
                          >
                          >
                          > I think that the assumption that house burials, especially of children,
                          > were sacrifices, is more Victorian drama than reality.
                          >
                          > Trudy Kawami
                          >
                          >
                          >
                          > ________________________________
                          >
                          > From: ANE-2@yahoogroups. <mailto:ANE-2%40yahoogroups.com> com
                          [mailto:ANE-2@yahoogroups. <mailto:ANE-2%40yahoogroups.com> com] On Behalf
                          Of
                          > Joe Zias
                          > Sent: Wednesday, February 24, 2010 6:05 AM
                          > To: ANE-2@yahoogroups. <mailto:ANE-2%40yahoogroups.com> com
                          > Subject: Re: [ANE-2] Children under the floor
                          >
                          >
                          >
                          >
                          >
                          > Children underneath the floor as well as adults go back to the
                          > pre-historic periods. (Natufian)
                          >
                          > Joe Zias www.joezias.com
                          > Anthropology/Paleopathology
                          >
                          > Science and Antiquity Group - Jerusalem
                          > Jerusalem, Israel
                          >
                          > --- On Tue, 2/23/10, George F Somsel <gfsomsel@yahoo.
                          <mailto:gfsomsel%40yahoo.com> com
                          > <mailto:gfsomsel%40yahoo.com> > wrote:
                          >
                          > From: George F Somsel <gfsomsel@yahoo. <mailto:gfsomsel%40yahoo.com> com
                          <mailto:gfsomsel%40yahoo.com>
                          >>
                          > Subject: Re: [ANE-2] Children under the floor
                          > To: ANE-2@yahoogroups. <mailto:ANE-2%40yahoogroups.com> com
                          <mailto:ANE-2%40yahoogroups.com>
                          > Date: Tuesday, February 23, 2010, 10:20 PM
                          >
                          >
                          >
                          > There is a rather well-known combination of passages including Josh 6.26
                          >
                          > 26 Joshua then pronounced this oath, saying,
                          >
                          > "Cursed before the Lord be anyone who tries
                          >
                          > to build this city-this Jericho!
                          >
                          > At the cost of his firstborn he shall lay its foundation,
                          >
                          >
                          >
                          > In his days Hiel of Bethel built Jericho; he laid its foundation at the
                          > cost of Abiram his firstborn, and set up its gates at the cost of his
                          > youngest son Segub, according to the word of the Lord, which he spoke by
                          > Joshua son of Nun.
                          >
                          > In this it doesn't specifically connect this act with child sacrifice,
                          > but I think the implication is clear. Having said that, I would be
                          > hesitant to connect all such burials with foundation sacrifices. It is
                          > a not uncommon practice of many to bury a beloved pet in a special place
                          > on one's property, and such burials may be nothing more than a memorial
                          > of the dead.
                          >
                          > george
                          >
                          > gfsomsel
                          >
                          > ... search for truth, hear truth,
                          >
                          > learn truth, love truth, speak the truth, hold the truth,
                          >
                          > defend the truth till death.
                          >
                          > - Jan Hus
                          >
                          > _________
                          >
                          > ____________ _________ _________ __
                          >
                          > From: "sbudin@camden. rutgers.edu" <sbudin@camden. rutgers.edu>
                          >
                          > To: ANE-2@yahoogroups. com
                          >
                          > Sent: Tue, February 23, 2010 5:05:13 PM
                          >
                          > Subject: [ANE-2] Children under the floor
                          >
                          >
                          >
                          > Dear All,
                          >
                          > Several years ago I was reading an old (1940s?) book on
                          >
                          > Mesopotamian archaeology wherein the author claimed that the
                          >
                          > Mesopotamians consecrated their new houses by means of child
                          >
                          > sacrifice. Specifically, archaeologists had discovered human infant
                          >
                          > (and dog)skeletons in pots under domestic structures, and the
                          >
                          > archaeologist decided that this was evidence for a kind of child
                          >
                          > sacrifice. Unfortunately, I no longer remember the work I was
                          >
                          > reading. By any chance does this sound familiar to anyone on the
                          >
                          > list? Could anyone please remind me of the book or the author, or
                          >
                          > even the archaeologist who entertained this notion?
                          >
                          > Many thanks in advance!
                          >
                          > Stephanie Budin
                          >
                          > Rutgers University, Camden
                          >
                          > "Maybe we can link up with someone who's meditating and download
                          >
                          > enlightenment! " -Tachikoma
                          >
                          > and 1 Kg 16.34
                          >
                          > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                          >
                          > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                          >
                          >
                          >
                          >
                          >
                          > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                          >
                          >
                          >
                          > ------------------------------------
                          >
                          > Yahoo! Groups Links
                          >
                          >
                          >
                          >

                          "Maybe we can link up with someone who's meditating and download
                          enlightenment!" -Tachikoma





                          [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                        • victor avigdor hurowitz
                          Fret not Dolores, Larry Stager is still alive and still active. Victor Hurowitz BGU
                          Message 12 of 16 , Mar 14, 2010
                          • 0 Attachment
                            Fret not Dolores,
                            Larry Stager is still alive and still active.
                            Victor Hurowitz
                            BGU



                            On Sat, 13 Mar 2010, Dolores Delgado wrote:

                            > Au contraire - I just finished a research paper this last summer, and am
                            > currently reading what is classified as the best history of the Phoenicians:
                            >
                            >
                            >
                            > The Phoenicians
                            >
                            > Donald Harden, 1981, The Chaucer Press, Bungay, Suffolk.it's out of print,
                            > but you can find old copies thru Amazon.com
                            >
                            >
                            >
                            > The work of Lawrence Stager is extensive, and I don't know if he's still
                            > alive.
                            >
                            > Stager, Lawrence. "Child Sacrifice at Carthage: Religious Rite or Population
                            > Control: Archaeological Evidence Provides Basis for a New Analysis". The
                            > Biblical Archaeology Review. 10 (1984): 31-eoa.
                            >
                            >
                            >
                            > Heider, George C. The Cult of Molek A Reassessment. Sheffield: JSOT Press,
                            > 1985. A reprint has just been made available. His work needs to be updated
                            > as so much more has been discovered/discerned.
                            >
                            >
                            >
                            > Omri Boehm, in his article "Child Sacrifice, Ethical Responsibility and the
                            > existence of the People of Israel". Vetus Testamentum. LIV, 2. (2004).
                            > 145-156.
                            >
                            > There are other sources I used, trying to point to the dating and
                            > relationship to the story of the Sacrifice of Isaac in the Bible, Genesis
                            > 22. I drew upon archaeological finds at Ketef Hinnom, the Incirli Stela,
                            > Qumran, and the Qeiyafa Ostracon. Good luck. Let me know if you have any
                            > more questions. I hope to further expand on this topic in a later
                            > paper/dissertation.
                            >
                            >
                            >
                            >
                            >
                            > Dolores Delgado
                            >
                            > Religious Studies and Philosophy, B.A.
                            >
                            > Marylhurst University
                            >
                            > Portland, OR
                            >
                            > -----Original Message-----
                            > From: ANE-2@yahoogroups.com [mailto:ANE-2@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of
                            > sbudin@...
                            > Sent: Wednesday, February 24, 2010 8:15 AM
                            > To: ANE-2@yahoogroups.com
                            > Subject: RE: [ANE-2] Children under the floor
                            >
                            >
                            >
                            >
                            >
                            > Many, many thanks to everyone who replied to my query! Perhaps I
                            > should offer a tad more explanation.
                            > My interest in the topic is in how researchers, archaeologists,
                            > scholars in general interpret data, especially in how they form
                            > patterns with their data. So, in this instance, you have references
                            > to child sacrifice in the Bible, the belief in the Tophet, etc., and
                            > this leads to a belief in a wide-spread practice of child sacrifice.
                            > Thus, when an archaeologists finds child bones under a house, rather
                            > than thinking of intermural burial (a common practice), he comes up
                            > with ritual sacrifice.
                            > So, no, I do not think that these were cases of child sacrifice.
                            > But I am interested in how someone else would come up with that notion.
                            >
                            > Stephanie Budin
                            >
                            > Quoting Trudy Kawami <tkawami@arthurmsack
                            > <mailto:tkawami%40arthurmsacklerfdn.org> lerfdn.org>:
                            >
                            > > For a number of examples of burials, not sacrifices, in a residential
                            > > setting, see the reports from Catal Hoyuk (Neolithic Anatolia).
                            > >
                            > >
                            > >
                            > > http://www.catalhoy
                            > <http://www.catalhoyuk.com/newsletters/12/nl12_10.html>
                            > uk.com/newsletters/12/nl12_10.html
                            > >
                            > >
                            > >
                            > > I think that the assumption that house burials, especially of children,
                            > > were sacrifices, is more Victorian drama than reality.
                            > >
                            > > Trudy Kawami
                            > >
                            > >
                            > >
                            > > ________________________________
                            > >
                            > > From: ANE-2@yahoogroups. <mailto:ANE-2%40yahoogroups.com> com
                            > [mailto:ANE-2@yahoogroups. <mailto:ANE-2%40yahoogroups.com> com] On Behalf
                            > Of
                            > > Joe Zias
                            > > Sent: Wednesday, February 24, 2010 6:05 AM
                            > > To: ANE-2@yahoogroups. <mailto:ANE-2%40yahoogroups.com> com
                            > > Subject: Re: [ANE-2] Children under the floor
                            > >
                            > >
                            > >
                            > >
                            > >
                            > > Children underneath the floor as well as adults go back to the
                            > > pre-historic periods. (Natufian)
                            > >
                            > > Joe Zias www.joezias.com
                            > > Anthropology/Paleopathology
                            > >
                            > > Science and Antiquity Group - Jerusalem
                            > > Jerusalem, Israel
                            > >
                            > > --- On Tue, 2/23/10, George F Somsel <gfsomsel@yahoo.
                            > <mailto:gfsomsel%40yahoo.com> com
                            > > <mailto:gfsomsel%40yahoo.com> > wrote:
                            > >
                            > > From: George F Somsel <gfsomsel@yahoo. <mailto:gfsomsel%40yahoo.com> com
                            > <mailto:gfsomsel%40yahoo.com>
                            > >>
                            > > Subject: Re: [ANE-2] Children under the floor
                            > > To: ANE-2@yahoogroups. <mailto:ANE-2%40yahoogroups.com> com
                            > <mailto:ANE-2%40yahoogroups.com>
                            > > Date: Tuesday, February 23, 2010, 10:20 PM
                            > >
                            > >
                            > >
                            > > There is a rather well-known combination of passages including Josh 6.26
                            > >
                            > > 26 Joshua then pronounced this oath, saying,
                            > >
                            > > "Cursed before the Lord be anyone who tries
                            > >
                            > > to build this city-this Jericho!
                            > >
                            > > At the cost of his firstborn he shall lay its foundation,
                            > >
                            > >
                            > >
                            > > In his days Hiel of Bethel built Jericho; he laid its foundation at the
                            > > cost of Abiram his firstborn, and set up its gates at the cost of his
                            > > youngest son Segub, according to the word of the Lord, which he spoke by
                            > > Joshua son of Nun.
                            > >
                            > > In this it doesn't specifically connect this act with child sacrifice,
                            > > but I think the implication is clear. Having said that, I would be
                            > > hesitant to connect all such burials with foundation sacrifices. It is
                            > > a not uncommon practice of many to bury a beloved pet in a special place
                            > > on one's property, and such burials may be nothing more than a memorial
                            > > of the dead.
                            > >
                            > > george
                            > >
                            > > gfsomsel
                            > >
                            > > ... search for truth, hear truth,
                            > >
                            > > learn truth, love truth, speak the truth, hold the truth,
                            > >
                            > > defend the truth till death.
                            > >
                            > > - Jan Hus
                            > >
                            > > _________
                            > >
                            > > ____________ _________ _________ __
                            > >
                            > > From: "sbudin@camden. rutgers.edu" <sbudin@camden. rutgers.edu>
                            > >
                            > > To: ANE-2@yahoogroups. com
                            > >
                            > > Sent: Tue, February 23, 2010 5:05:13 PM
                            > >
                            > > Subject: [ANE-2] Children under the floor
                            > >
                            > >
                            > >
                            > > Dear All,
                            > >
                            > > Several years ago I was reading an old (1940s?) book on
                            > >
                            > > Mesopotamian archaeology wherein the author claimed that the
                            > >
                            > > Mesopotamians consecrated their new houses by means of child
                            > >
                            > > sacrifice. Specifically, archaeologists had discovered human infant
                            > >
                            > > (and dog)skeletons in pots under domestic structures, and the
                            > >
                            > > archaeologist decided that this was evidence for a kind of child
                            > >
                            > > sacrifice. Unfortunately, I no longer remember the work I was
                            > >
                            > > reading. By any chance does this sound familiar to anyone on the
                            > >
                            > > list? Could anyone please remind me of the book or the author, or
                            > >
                            > > even the archaeologist who entertained this notion?
                            > >
                            > > Many thanks in advance!
                            > >
                            > > Stephanie Budin
                            > >
                            > > Rutgers University, Camden
                            > >
                            > > "Maybe we can link up with someone who's meditating and download
                            > >
                            > > enlightenment! " -Tachikoma
                            > >
                            > > and 1 Kg 16.34
                            > >
                            > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                            > >
                            > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                            > >
                            > >
                            > >
                            > >
                            > >
                            > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                            > >
                            > >
                            > >
                            > > ------------------------------------
                            > >
                            > > Yahoo! Groups Links
                            > >
                            > >
                            > >
                            > >
                            >
                            > "Maybe we can link up with someone who's meditating and download
                            > enlightenment!" -Tachikoma
                            >
                            >
                            >
                            >
                            >
                            > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                            >
                            >
                          • Sam WOLFF
                            Dolores, One small correction... The article on Child Sacrifice at Carthage that appeared in Biblical Archaeology Review was written by Lawrence Stager and
                            Message 13 of 16 , Mar 15, 2010
                            • 0 Attachment
                              Dolores,

                              One small correction...

                              The article on Child Sacrifice at Carthage that appeared in Biblical Archaeology Review was written by Lawrence Stager and Samuel Wolff.

                              Sam Wolff



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                              [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                            • judith weingarten
                              L.S., There s a lively discussion on Child Sacrifice at Carthage? going on at RogueClassicism, which some list-members may find interesting:
                              Message 14 of 16 , Mar 15, 2010
                              • 0 Attachment
                                L.S.,

                                There's a lively discussion on 'Child Sacrifice at Carthage?' going on
                                at RogueClassicism, which some list-members may find interesting:
                                http://rogueclassicism.com/2010/02/17/child-sacrifice-at-carthage/

                                I can highly recommend a very new book about Carthage: Richard Miles,
                                /Carthage Must be Destroyed: the rise and Fall of an Ancient
                                Civilization/, London. 2010. Miles thinks, by the way, that
                                Carthaginians did sacrifice children, at least in times of great crisis.

                                All good wishes,

                                Judith Weingarten

                                -----

                                Visit Zenobia's blog at Empress of the East
                                <http://judithweingarten.blogspot.com>
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