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Re: [ANE-2] 7th century Judaism or YHWHism

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  • Jack Kilmon
    ... From: David Hall Sent: Tuesday, December 29, 2009 10:34 AM To: ANE-2 Subject: [ANE-2] 7th century Judaism
    Message 1 of 27 , Dec 30, 2009
      --------------------------------------------------
      From: "David Hall" <dqhall59@...>
      Sent: Tuesday, December 29, 2009 10:34 AM
      To: "ANE-2" <ane-2@yahoogroups.com>
      Subject: [ANE-2] 7th century Judaism or YHWHism

      > The finding of the an ashlar limestone horned altar with the stones reused
      > in a later structure at Tel Beersheva (Beersheba) has been interpreted by
      > some as evidence for a theory of Hezekiah's people trying to centralize
      > worship in Jerusalem. With the fall of Samaria during the eighth century
      > reign of Tiglath Pileser III there may have been a migration of Israelites
      > to the south as there was a noticed increase in the size of Jerusalem
      > during these times.
      >
      > It is supposed that Hosea testified against the worship of the calf at
      > Samaria during the time of Jerobaom II. Hosea testified against the many
      > altars in the land as the Lord desired mercy and not sacrifice (Hos. 6:6).
      > It was righteousness that was desired; not killing, adultery, and
      > prostitution. The author of the book stated the sins of Israel were cause
      > of its coming downfall.
      >
      > At Arad the 5 cubit by 5 cubit altar of unhewn stones was covered over
      > with dirt and the two incense altars were laid aside a wall of the
      > sanctuary there. This too has been interpreted by some as evidence for
      > the abandonment of satellite sanctuaries and high places as imposed by the
      > priestly class in Jerusalem before the exile.
      >
      > Repeated attempts to reform the Jerusalem cultic practice may have been
      > hindered by calls for maintaining the status quo and Jewish unity.
      >
      > David Q. Hall
      > Falls Church, Virginia


      I think the attempts to centralize worship (and power) in Jerusalem
      continued through Josiah and Ezra. I think it is possible the Exodus story
      was crafted to establish the Jerusalem temple as required for the
      celebration of passover/Pesach.

      The celebration of a Passover tradition by Jews in Egypt or the diaspora or
      by tribes throughout Canaan may have occurred without an Exodus narrative
      even before it was written around the 8th century BCE but there is no
      mention of it. I don't know whether the tradition inspired the narrative or
      the narrative inspired the tradition but I lean to the latter. There is no
      mention of a centralized celebration in Jerusalem which was a goal of
      Hezekiah (728-698 BCE-2 Chr 30:1-30:5) and Josiah (640-609 BCE--2 Chr 35:1)
      when there was a temple (which was destroyed in 586 BCE). I think it became
      the touchstone for the newly rebuilt 2nd temple (constructed between 520-515
      BCE by Zerubbabel and Joshua the HP). This is an interesting period due to
      a gap of 60 years about which we know very little. We don't know what
      happened to Zerubbabel who may have been viewed as a Messiah resulting in
      internicene strife with Joshua, the HP. Zerubabbel disappears from the
      texts, perhaps assassinated, and there is a call by the Persians to crown
      Joshua and call him "the Branch" and place a priest next to his throne. I
      think Joshua was originally to have been the priest and Zerubbabel crowned
      but things were obviously unstable for those years before and after the
      temple was built and dedicated. Organizing the festivals at the temple fell
      to Ezra (458-428 BCE) and Nehemiah and represents the most likely time when
      the passover was successfully reorganized and centralized at the temple in
      Judah and formalized.


      Jack Kilmon
      San Antonio, TX
    • Niels Peter Lemche
      When this list was planned the moderators decided that biblical historicity should not be discussed. Yet it continues to pop up. The two mails by Hall and
      Message 2 of 27 , Dec 30, 2009
        When this list was planned the moderators decided that biblical
        historicity should not be discussed. Yet it continues to pop up. The two
        mails by Hall and Kilmon say very much why, both belonging to a
        tradition of biblical scholarship popular a generation ago. And this has
        nothing to do with Doug Petrovich extremely conservative approach, which
        has little with critical scholarfship in any form to do, and will not be
        discussed here.

        One sign of this is the rather unreflected use of comparisons between
        biblical data and extra-biblical data (PS: "biblical in this connection
        nearly always means "Hebrew Bible", and not the Bible in a Christian
        sense, and definitely not the Greek Bible, alias the Septuagint with its
        much wider and more open collection of books. Somehow the Rabbis won,
        and their selection became the Canon also of Western Christianity, and
        in our eurocentralistic approach, this must be the only one! A Mistake
        Luther made).

        Now to these two recent mails:

        David Hall's first paragraph includes two assertions:

        1: That Hezekiah's reform is a historical one. He forgets to present
        authorities, so it remains not only an assertion but also an assertion
        without reference.

        2: The alleged migration from the North to the south after the Fall of
        Samaria. This is an old assertion by Albrecht Alt, some 60 years old,
        and recently borrowed by Israel Finkelstein. It remains an assertion, as
        nothing really speaks in favor of it, apart from the growth of Jerusalem
        around 700 BCE, a development more likely to have its background in the
        vasteland of Palestine left by Sennacherib. Jerusalem was the only city
        with a protecting wall left in Hezekiah's kingdom, and especially the
        fall of Lachish must have presented problems of housing. It should be
        noted that not even the Bible has a word to say about such a migration.
        Something to speculate about if biblical evidence is not only chosen at
        random to support ones own ideas.

        His second paragraph is no better:
        1: It is supposed ... by whom? Hoseah is according to biblical
        chronology and narrative placed in the reign of Jeroboam II of Israel,
        but the book bearing his name is heavily redacted. It is the assertion
        of this biblical book that it has to do with circumstances belonging to
        the 8th century BCE. However, it is sloppy scholarship that takes such a
        source at face value.

        2: the last sentence is correct: The author of the book stated ... but
        when did he do so? and which author. More than one hand may have been
        active.

        The paragraph about Arad may be correct, when it comes to the discovery
        of the altars, but again he should provide links and references.

        The concluding paragraph is sheer speculation.

        His mail was in answer of Jack Kilmon's previous one:

        First paragraph:

        1: The Hebrew Bible says that a kind of centralization took place in the
        days of the Judean king Hezekiah. Although he did not -- according to 2
        Kings -- go far enough. Josiah did better than him (but cf. the
        corrections in Chronicles). This is an old assumption not really
        supported by extra-biblical evidence. But somehow people should read
        their Bible more carefully, as it also states that Josiah's reform was a
        failure, and that his successors took up the evil habits of their
        forefathers. Ezra is a totally obscure person, except in tradition (the
        genealogy presented would have made him a very old chap when he arrived
        in Jerusalem, and he at least had nothing to do with rebuilding
        activities). The building of Haggai's temple may have happened, although
        now severely disputed by modern scholars like Diana Edelman who places
        it much later, in the 5th century. The missing indications of a
        resettlement of Jerusalem before the late 5th or even early 4th century
        BCE also speaks again the assertion made by the Bible that it happened
        in 516 BCE. So to place Ezra in tghe line of centralization is
        speculation.

        2: The idea of the Exodus story and its relations to Jerusalem is
        another example of pure speculation. Jack should not be blamed too much,
        as this was no more than many people were asserting when he was young.
        The members of that generation of scholars -- including the venerable
        names of Albrecht Alt and Martin Noth -- have by later colleagues been
        termed "die grossen Hypothesenmacher".

        Then in the second paragraph we find a number of old ideas -- or
        assertions.

        1: Canaan as a term for Palestine in the 1st millennium. When we in this
        millennium find extra-biblical references, they say "Phoenicia". Jack's
        introducing biblical geography as if it was historical geography.

        2: the Dating of the Exodus narrative to the 8th century BCE: Au courant
        with the opinion of critical scholars 40 to 50 years ago. It is
        generally not accepted anymore, and for many reasons. Pentateucal
        studies has made many steps forward since those days, since the Toronto
        lectures of Winnett, the teacher of Van Seters. So if people want to
        understand what has happened, a brush up would be recommendable. A
        rather traditional -- in the modern sense -- survey which nevertheless
        includes much of interest as to these changes was published a couple of
        years ago by Ska. We have witnessed from morately conservative Israeli
        scholars an endeavour to defend old dates, especially of the Priestly
        writer and based on language. This discussion hasd entered a new phase
        with the publication of a number of studies tearing away this
        foundation, by Knauf, Rezetko, Young and more.

        When this list opened, it was a demand that the discussion should be
        based on facts. Readers may want to ask for facts embedded in this new
        discussion, and when the moderators sometimes are very reluctant to
        accept mails about biblical topics, they may understand that it was
        normal in biblical studies to exchange (non-existing) facts with
        assertions.

        They may also understand that some of the so-called left wing biblical
        scholars (normally a term found in American studies -- traditionally
        European scholarship has been called so, such as the aforementioned Alt
        and Noth by members of the [William Foxwell] Albright guild, who
        considered them to be "nihilists" and worse) are not really interested
        in this discussion about historicity. We prefer today to discuss
        authors' intents and the memories embedded in their writings. There are
        also theological reasons for this but this definitely does not belong
        here. I have done my part of this (so far) in my recent book, The Old
        Testament between Theology and History from 2008.

        Niels Peter Lemche
      • Henrik Rasmussen
        Is it correct to refer to the Israelites as Jews, prior to the Babylonian exile? Rik Rasmussen ... [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
        Message 3 of 27 , Dec 30, 2009
          Is it correct to refer to the Israelites as Jews, prior to the Babylonian
          exile?

          Rik Rasmussen




          On Wed, Dec 30, 2009 at 3:16 AM, Jack Kilmon <jkilmon@...> wrote:

          >
          >
          >
          >
          > --------------------------------------------------
          > From: "David Hall" <dqhall59@... <dqhall59%40yahoo.com>>
          > Sent: Tuesday, December 29, 2009 10:34 AM
          > To: "ANE-2" <ane-2@yahoogroups.com <ane-2%40yahoogroups.com>>
          > Subject: [ANE-2] 7th century Judaism or YHWHism
          >
          >
          > > The finding of the an ashlar limestone horned altar with the stones
          > reused
          > > in a later structure at Tel Beersheva (Beersheba) has been interpreted by
          >
          > > some as evidence for a theory of Hezekiah's people trying to centralize
          > > worship in Jerusalem. With the fall of Samaria during the eighth century
          > > reign of Tiglath Pileser III there may have been a migration of
          > Israelites
          > > to the south as there was a noticed increase in the size of Jerusalem
          > > during these times.
          > >
          > > It is supposed that Hosea testified against the worship of the calf at
          > > Samaria during the time of Jerobaom II. Hosea testified against the many
          > > altars in the land as the Lord desired mercy and not sacrifice (Hos.
          > 6:6).
          > > It was righteousness that was desired; not killing, adultery, and
          > > prostitution. The author of the book stated the sins of Israel were cause
          >
          > > of its coming downfall.
          > >
          > > At Arad the 5 cubit by 5 cubit altar of unhewn stones was covered over
          > > with dirt and the two incense altars were laid aside a wall of the
          > > sanctuary there. This too has been interpreted by some as evidence for
          > > the abandonment of satellite sanctuaries and high places as imposed by
          > the
          > > priestly class in Jerusalem before the exile.
          > >
          > > Repeated attempts to reform the Jerusalem cultic practice may have been
          > > hindered by calls for maintaining the status quo and Jewish unity.
          > >
          > > David Q. Hall
          > > Falls Church, Virginia
          >
          > I think the attempts to centralize worship (and power) in Jerusalem
          > continued through Josiah and Ezra. I think it is possible the Exodus story
          > was crafted to establish the Jerusalem temple as required for the
          > celebration of passover/Pesach.
          >
          > The celebration of a Passover tradition by Jews in Egypt or the diaspora or
          > by tribes throughout Canaan may have occurred without an Exodus narrative
          > even before it was written around the 8th century BCE but there is no
          > mention of it. I don't know whether the tradition inspired the narrative or
          > the narrative inspired the tradition but I lean to the latter. There is no
          > mention of a centralized celebration in Jerusalem which was a goal of
          > Hezekiah (728-698 BCE-2 Chr 30:1-30:5) and Josiah (640-609 BCE--2 Chr 35:1)
          > when there was a temple (which was destroyed in 586 BCE). I think it became
          > the touchstone for the newly rebuilt 2nd temple (constructed between
          > 520-515
          > BCE by Zerubbabel and Joshua the HP). This is an interesting period due to
          > a gap of 60 years about which we know very little. We don't know what
          > happened to Zerubbabel who may have been viewed as a Messiah resulting in
          > internicene strife with Joshua, the HP. Zerubabbel disappears from the
          > texts, perhaps assassinated, and there is a call by the Persians to crown
          > Joshua and call him "the Branch" and place a priest next to his throne. I
          > think Joshua was originally to have been the priest and Zerubbabel crowned
          > but things were obviously unstable for those years before and after the
          > temple was built and dedicated. Organizing the festivals at the temple fell
          > to Ezra (458-428 BCE) and Nehemiah and represents the most likely time when
          > the passover was successfully reorganized and centralized at the temple in
          > Judah and formalized.
          >
          > Jack Kilmon
          > San Antonio, TX
          >
          >
          >


          [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
        • Niels Peter Lemche
          It is an anachronism, before the Hellenistic Age. It is a left-over from the days when the biblical history of Israel s past as the twelve tribes migrating the
          Message 4 of 27 , Dec 30, 2009
            It is an anachronism, before the Hellenistic Age. It is a left-over from the days when the biblical history of Israel's past as the twelve tribes migrating the desert, storming the land of Canaan, and settling there as a nation of twelve tribes was still au courant.

            When Sennacherib refers to Hezekiah, it is a the "Judean", often translated the "Jew", but hardly meaning more than "the man from (the landscape/state) of Judah.

            Niels Peter Lemche

            -----Oprindelig meddelelse-----
            Fra: ANE-2@yahoogroups.com [mailto:ANE-2@yahoogroups.com] På vegne af Henrik Rasmussen
            Sendt: den 30 december 2009 14:26
            Til: ANE-2@yahoogroups.com
            Emne: Re: [ANE-2] 7th century Judaism or YHWHism

            Is it correct to refer to the Israelites as Jews, prior to the Babylonian
            exile?

            Rik Rasmussen
          • victor avigdor hurowitz
            No less a giant than A. Leo Oppenheim was one of those who translated the passage you refer to from Sennacherib s annals as Hezeqiah the Jew . Oppenheim was
            Message 5 of 27 , Dec 30, 2009
              No less a giant than A. Leo Oppenheim was one of those who
              translated the passage you
              refer to from Sennacherib's annals as "Hezeqiah the Jew". Oppenheim was
              not known for an affinity to biblification and even then I'm sure he had
              some sense of the developing nuances of words (he had something to do with
              the CAD). It would be interesting to hear why he translated Jew rather
              than Judean.
              Victor Hurowitz
              BGU



              On Wed, 30 Dec 2009, Niels Peter Lemche wrote:

              > It is an anachronism, before the Hellenistic Age. It is a left-over from the days when the biblical history of Israel's past as the twelve tribes migrating the desert, storming the land of Canaan, and settling there as a nation of twelve tribes was still au courant.
              >
              > When Sennacherib refers to Hezekiah, it is a the "Judean", often translated the "Jew", but hardly meaning more than "the man from (the landscape/state) of Judah.
              >
              > Niels Peter Lemche
              >
              > -----Oprindelig meddelelse-----
              > Fra: ANE-2@yahoogroups.com [mailto:ANE-2@yahoogroups.com] På vegne af Henrik Rasmussen
              > Sendt: den 30 december 2009 14:26
              > Til: ANE-2@yahoogroups.com
              > Emne: Re: [ANE-2] 7th century Judaism or YHWHism
              >
              > Is it correct to refer to the Israelites as Jews, prior to the Babylonian
              > exile?
              >
              > Rik Rasmussen
              >
              >
              >
              >
              >
            • Niels Peter Lemche
              It was quite normal at that time. I have in Danish a translation by Mogens Trolle Larsen, that even stresses the meaning of Jew . Mogens is hardly more
              Message 6 of 27 , Dec 30, 2009
                It was quite normal at that time. I have in Danish a translation by Mogens Trolle Larsen, that even stresses the meaning of "Jew". Mogens is hardly more impressed by biblicism than Oppenheimer was. It had to do with the general situation in those days.

                Niels Peter Lemche

                -----Oprindelig meddelelse-----
                Fra: ANE-2@yahoogroups.com [mailto:ANE-2@yahoogroups.com] På vegne af victor avigdor hurowitz
                Sendt: den 30 december 2009 14:50
                Til: ANE-2@yahoogroups.com
                Emne: Re: SV: [ANE-2] 7th century Judaism or YHWHism

                No less a giant than A. Leo Oppenheim was one of those who
                translated the passage you
                refer to from Sennacherib's annals as "Hezeqiah the Jew". Oppenheim was
                not known for an affinity to biblification and even then I'm sure he had
                some sense of the developing nuances of words (he had something to do with
                the CAD). It would be interesting to hear why he translated Jew rather
                than Judean.
                Victor Hurowitz
                BGU



                On Wed, 30 Dec 2009, Niels Peter Lemche wrote:

                > It is an anachronism, before the Hellenistic Age. It is a left-over from the days when the biblical history of Israel's past as the twelve tribes migrating the desert, storming the land of Canaan, and settling there as a nation of twelve tribes was still au courant.
                >
                > When Sennacherib refers to Hezekiah, it is a the "Judean", often translated the "Jew", but hardly meaning more than "the man from (the landscape/state) of Judah.
                >
                > Niels Peter Lemche
                >
                > -----Oprindelig meddelelse-----
                > Fra: ANE-2@yahoogroups.com [mailto:ANE-2@yahoogroups.com] På vegne af Henrik Rasmussen
                > Sendt: den 30 december 2009 14:26
                > Til: ANE-2@yahoogroups.com
                > Emne: Re: [ANE-2] 7th century Judaism or YHWHism
                >
                > Is it correct to refer to the Israelites as Jews, prior to the Babylonian
                > exile?
                >
                > Rik Rasmussen
                >
                >
                >
                >
                >



                ------------------------------------

                Yahoo! Groups Links
              • Henrik Rasmussen
                Niels, when you say that time , and those days , are you speaking of the Sennacherib period, or the period of these scholars? Rik Rasmussen ... [Non-text
                Message 7 of 27 , Dec 30, 2009
                  Niels, when you say "that time", and "those days", are you speaking of the
                  Sennacherib period, or the period of these scholars?

                  Rik Rasmussen




                  On Wed, Dec 30, 2009 at 8:52 AM, Niels Peter Lemche <npl@...> wrote:

                  >
                  >
                  > It was quite normal at that time. I have in Danish a translation by Mogens
                  > Trolle Larsen, that even stresses the meaning of "Jew". Mogens is hardly
                  > more impressed by biblicism than Oppenheimer was. It had to do with the
                  > general situation in those days.
                  >
                  >
                  > Niels Peter Lemche
                  >
                  > -----Oprindelig meddelelse-----
                  > Fra: ANE-2@yahoogroups.com <ANE-2%40yahoogroups.com> [mailto:
                  > ANE-2@yahoogroups.com <ANE-2%40yahoogroups.com>] P� vegne af victor
                  > avigdor hurowitz
                  > Sendt: den 30 december 2009 14:50
                  >
                  > Til: ANE-2@yahoogroups.com <ANE-2%40yahoogroups.com>
                  > Emne: Re: SV: [ANE-2] 7th century Judaism or YHWHism
                  >
                  >
                  > No less a giant than A. Leo Oppenheim was one of those who
                  > translated the passage you
                  > refer to from Sennacherib's annals as "Hezeqiah the Jew". Oppenheim was
                  > not known for an affinity to biblification and even then I'm sure he had
                  > some sense of the developing nuances of words (he had something to do with
                  > the CAD). It would be interesting to hear why he translated Jew rather
                  > than Judean.
                  > Victor Hurowitz
                  > BGU
                  >
                  > On Wed, 30 Dec 2009, Niels Peter Lemche wrote:
                  >
                  > > It is an anachronism, before the Hellenistic Age. It is a left-over from
                  > the days when the biblical history of Israel's past as the twelve tribes
                  > migrating the desert, storming the land of Canaan, and settling there as a
                  > nation of twelve tribes was still au courant.
                  > >
                  > > When Sennacherib refers to Hezekiah, it is a the "Judean", often
                  > translated the "Jew", but hardly meaning more than "the man from (the
                  > landscape/state) of Judah.
                  > >
                  > > Niels Peter Lemche
                  > >
                  > > -----Oprindelig meddelelse-----
                  > > Fra: ANE-2@yahoogroups.com <ANE-2%40yahoogroups.com> [mailto:
                  > ANE-2@yahoogroups.com <ANE-2%40yahoogroups.com>] P� vegne af Henrik
                  > Rasmussen
                  > > Sendt: den 30 december 2009 14:26
                  > > Til: ANE-2@yahoogroups.com <ANE-2%40yahoogroups.com>
                  > > Emne: Re: [ANE-2] 7th century Judaism or YHWHism
                  > >
                  > > Is it correct to refer to the Israelites as Jews, prior to the Babylonian
                  > > exile?
                  > >
                  > > Rik Rasmussen
                  > >
                  > >
                  > >
                  > >
                  > >
                  >
                  > ------------------------------------
                  >
                  > Yahoo! Groups Links
                  >
                  >
                  >


                  [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                • victor avigdor hurowitz
                  Oppenheimer? I didn t know he was interested in ANE. Didn t he help invent the bomb? Victor Hurowitz BGU
                  Message 8 of 27 , Dec 30, 2009
                    Oppenheimer? I didn't know he was interested in ANE. Didn't he help invent
                    the bomb?
                    Victor Hurowitz
                    BGU



                    On Wed, 30 Dec 2009, Niels Peter Lemche wrote:

                    > It was quite normal at that time. I have in Danish a translation by Mogens Trolle Larsen, that even stresses the meaning of "Jew". Mogens is hardly more impressed by biblicism than Oppenheimer was. It had to do with the general situation in those days.
                    >
                    > Niels Peter Lemche
                    >
                    > -----Oprindelig meddelelse-----
                    > Fra: ANE-2@yahoogroups.com [mailto:ANE-2@yahoogroups.com] På vegne af victor avigdor hurowitz
                    > Sendt: den 30 december 2009 14:50
                    > Til: ANE-2@yahoogroups.com
                    > Emne: Re: SV: [ANE-2] 7th century Judaism or YHWHism
                    >
                    > No less a giant than A. Leo Oppenheim was one of those who
                    > translated the passage you
                    > refer to from Sennacherib's annals as "Hezeqiah the Jew". Oppenheim was
                    > not known for an affinity to biblification and even then I'm sure he had
                    > some sense of the developing nuances of words (he had something to do with
                    > the CAD). It would be interesting to hear why he translated Jew rather
                    > than Judean.
                    > Victor Hurowitz
                    > BGU
                    >
                    >
                    >
                    > On Wed, 30 Dec 2009, Niels Peter Lemche wrote:
                    >
                    > > It is an anachronism, before the Hellenistic Age. It is a left-over from the days when the biblical history of Israel's past as the twelve tribes migrating the desert, storming the land of Canaan, and settling there as a nation of twelve tribes was still au courant.
                    > >
                    > > When Sennacherib refers to Hezekiah, it is a the "Judean", often translated the "Jew", but hardly meaning more than "the man from (the landscape/state) of Judah.
                    > >
                    > > Niels Peter Lemche
                    > >
                    > > -----Oprindelig meddelelse-----
                    > > Fra: ANE-2@yahoogroups.com [mailto:ANE-2@yahoogroups.com] På vegne af Henrik Rasmussen
                    > > Sendt: den 30 december 2009 14:26
                    > > Til: ANE-2@yahoogroups.com
                    > > Emne: Re: [ANE-2] 7th century Judaism or YHWHism
                    > >
                    > > Is it correct to refer to the Israelites as Jews, prior to the Babylonian
                    > > exile?
                    > >
                    > > Rik Rasmussen
                    > >
                    > >
                    > >
                    > >
                    > >
                    >
                    >
                    >
                    > ------------------------------------
                    >
                    > Yahoo! Groups Links
                    >
                    >
                    >
                    >
                  • whiting35
                    Oppenheim, Oppenheimer, Iceberg -- it s all the same. Bob Whiting whiting@cc.helsinki.fi
                    Message 9 of 27 , Dec 30, 2009
                      Oppenheim, Oppenheimer, Iceberg -- it's all the same.

                      Bob Whiting
                      whiting@...

                      --- In ANE-2@yahoogroups.com, victor avigdor hurowitz <victor@...> wrote:
                      >
                      > Oppenheimer? I didn't know he was interested in ANE. Didn't he help invent
                      > the bomb?
                      > Victor Hurowitz
                      > BGU
                      >
                      >
                      >
                      > On Wed, 30 Dec 2009, Niels Peter Lemche wrote:
                      >
                      > > It was quite normal at that time. I have in Danish a translation by Mogens Trolle Larsen, that even stresses the meaning of "Jew". Mogens is hardly more impressed by biblicism than Oppenheimer was. It had to do with the general situation in those days.
                      > >
                      > > Niels Peter Lemche
                      > >
                      > > -----Oprindelig meddelelse-----
                      > > Fra: ANE-2@yahoogroups.com [mailto:ANE-2@yahoogroups.com] P� vegne af victor avigdor hurowitz
                      > > Sendt: den 30 december 2009 14:50
                      > > Til: ANE-2@yahoogroups.com
                      > > Emne: Re: SV: [ANE-2] 7th century Judaism or YHWHism
                      > >
                      > > No less a giant than A. Leo Oppenheim was one of those who
                      > > translated the passage you
                      > > refer to from Sennacherib's annals as "Hezeqiah the Jew". Oppenheim was
                      > > not known for an affinity to biblification and even then I'm sure he had
                      > > some sense of the developing nuances of words (he had something to do with
                      > > the CAD). It would be interesting to hear why he translated Jew rather
                      > > than Judean.
                      > > Victor Hurowitz
                      > > BGU
                      > >
                      > >
                      > >
                      > > On Wed, 30 Dec 2009, Niels Peter Lemche wrote:
                      > >
                      > > > It is an anachronism, before the Hellenistic Age. It is a left-over from the days when the biblical history of Israel's past as the twelve tribes migrating the desert, storming the land of Canaan, and settling there as a nation of twelve tribes was still au courant.
                      > > >
                      > > > When Sennacherib refers to Hezekiah, it is a the "Judean", often translated the "Jew", but hardly meaning more than "the man from (the landscape/state) of Judah.
                      > > >
                      > > > Niels Peter Lemche
                      > > >
                      > > > -----Oprindelig meddelelse-----
                      > > > Fra: ANE-2@yahoogroups.com [mailto:ANE-2@yahoogroups.com] P� vegne af Henrik Rasmussen
                      > > > Sendt: den 30 december 2009 14:26
                      > > > Til: ANE-2@yahoogroups.com
                      > > > Emne: Re: [ANE-2] 7th century Judaism or YHWHism
                      > > >
                      > > > Is it correct to refer to the Israelites as Jews, prior to the Babylonian
                      > > > exile?
                      > > >
                      > > > Rik Rasmussen
                      > > >
                      > > >
                      > > >
                      > > >
                      > > >
                      > >
                      > >
                      > >
                      > > ------------------------------------
                      > >
                      > > Yahoo! Groups Links
                      > >
                      > >
                      > >
                      > >
                      >
                    • Niels Peter Lemche
                      sorry, silly, but there was in fact an Oppenheimer, Max Freiherr von, with hus huge work on beduins. Niels Peter Lemche ... Fra: ANE-2@yahoogroups.com
                      Message 10 of 27 , Dec 30, 2009
                        sorry, silly, but there was in fact an Oppenheimer, Max Freiherr von, with hus huge work on beduins.

                        Niels Peter Lemche

                        -----Oprindelig meddelelse-----
                        Fra: ANE-2@yahoogroups.com [mailto:ANE-2@yahoogroups.com] På vegne af victor avigdor hurowitz
                        Sendt: den 30 december 2009 14:58
                        Til: ANE-2@yahoogroups.com
                        Emne: Re: SV: SV: [ANE-2] 7th century Judaism or YHWHism

                        Oppenheimer? I didn't know he was interested in ANE. Didn't he help invent
                        the bomb?
                        Victor Hurowitz
                        BGU



                        On Wed, 30 Dec 2009, Niels Peter Lemche wrote:

                        > It was quite normal at that time. I have in Danish a translation by Mogens Trolle Larsen, that even stresses the meaning of "Jew". Mogens is hardly more impressed by biblicism than Oppenheimer was. It had to do with the general situation in those days.
                        >
                        > Niels Peter Lemche
                        >
                        > -----Oprindelig meddelelse-----
                        > Fra: ANE-2@yahoogroups.com [mailto:ANE-2@yahoogroups.com] På vegne af victor avigdor hurowitz
                        > Sendt: den 30 december 2009 14:50
                        > Til: ANE-2@yahoogroups.com
                        > Emne: Re: SV: [ANE-2] 7th century Judaism or YHWHism
                        >
                        > No less a giant than A. Leo Oppenheim was one of those who
                        > translated the passage you
                        > refer to from Sennacherib's annals as "Hezeqiah the Jew". Oppenheim was
                        > not known for an affinity to biblification and even then I'm sure he had
                        > some sense of the developing nuances of words (he had something to do with
                        > the CAD). It would be interesting to hear why he translated Jew rather
                        > than Judean.
                        > Victor Hurowitz
                        > BGU
                        >
                        >
                        >
                        > On Wed, 30 Dec 2009, Niels Peter Lemche wrote:
                        >
                        > > It is an anachronism, before the Hellenistic Age. It is a left-over from the days when the biblical history of Israel's past as the twelve tribes migrating the desert, storming the land of Canaan, and settling there as a nation of twelve tribes was still au courant.
                        > >
                        > > When Sennacherib refers to Hezekiah, it is a the "Judean", often translated the "Jew", but hardly meaning more than "the man from (the landscape/state) of Judah.
                        > >
                        > > Niels Peter Lemche
                        > >
                        > > -----Oprindelig meddelelse-----
                        > > Fra: ANE-2@yahoogroups.com [mailto:ANE-2@yahoogroups.com] På vegne af Henrik Rasmussen
                        > > Sendt: den 30 december 2009 14:26
                        > > Til: ANE-2@yahoogroups.com
                        > > Emne: Re: [ANE-2] 7th century Judaism or YHWHism
                        > >
                        > > Is it correct to refer to the Israelites as Jews, prior to the Babylonian
                        > > exile?
                        > >
                        > > Rik Rasmussen
                        > >
                        > >
                        > >
                        > >
                        > >
                        >
                        >
                        >
                        > ------------------------------------
                        >
                        > Yahoo! Groups Links
                        >
                        >
                        >
                        >



                        ------------------------------------

                        Yahoo! Groups Links
                      • Robert M Whiting
                        Nope -- that s Oppenheim too. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Max_von_Oppenheim Stop digging, NP. Bob Whiting whiting@cc.helsinki.fi
                        Message 11 of 27 , Dec 30, 2009
                          Nope -- that's Oppenheim too.

                          http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Max_von_Oppenheim

                          Stop digging, NP.

                          Bob Whiting
                          whiting@...

                          On Wed, 30 Dec 2009, Niels Peter Lemche wrote:

                          > sorry, silly, but there was in fact an Oppenheimer, Max Freiherr von,
                          > with hus huge work on beduins.
                          >
                          > Niels Peter Lemche
                          >
                          > -----Oprindelig meddelelse-----
                          > Fra: ANE-2@yahoogroups.com [mailto:ANE-2@yahoogroups.com] På vegne af victor avigdor hurowitz
                          > Sendt: den 30 december 2009 14:58
                          > Til: ANE-2@yahoogroups.com
                          > Emne: Re: SV: SV: [ANE-2] 7th century Judaism or YHWHism
                          >
                          > Oppenheimer? I didn't know he was interested in ANE. Didn't he help invent
                          > the bomb?
                          > Victor Hurowitz
                          > BGU
                          >
                          >
                          >
                          > On Wed, 30 Dec 2009, Niels Peter Lemche wrote:
                          >
                          > > It was quite normal at that time. I have in Danish a translation by Mogens Trolle Larsen, that even stresses the meaning of "Jew". Mogens is hardly more impressed by biblicism than Oppenheimer was. It had to do with the general situation in those days.
                          > >
                          > > Niels Peter Lemche
                          > >
                          > > -----Oprindelig meddelelse-----
                          > > Fra: ANE-2@yahoogroups.com [mailto:ANE-2@yahoogroups.com] På vegne af victor avigdor hurowitz
                          > > Sendt: den 30 december 2009 14:50
                          > > Til: ANE-2@yahoogroups.com
                          > > Emne: Re: SV: [ANE-2] 7th century Judaism or YHWHism
                          > >
                          > > No less a giant than A. Leo Oppenheim was one of those who
                          > > translated the passage you
                          > > refer to from Sennacherib's annals as "Hezeqiah the Jew". Oppenheim was
                          > > not known for an affinity to biblification and even then I'm sure he had
                          > > some sense of the developing nuances of words (he had something to do with
                          > > the CAD). It would be interesting to hear why he translated Jew rather
                          > > than Judean.
                          > > Victor Hurowitz
                          > > BGU
                          > >
                          > >
                          > >
                          > > On Wed, 30 Dec 2009, Niels Peter Lemche wrote:
                          > >
                          > > > It is an anachronism, before the Hellenistic Age. It is a left-over from the days when the biblical history of Israel's past as the twelve tribes migrating the desert, storming the land of Canaan, and settling there as a nation of twelve tribes was still au courant.
                          > > >
                          > > > When Sennacherib refers to Hezekiah, it is a the "Judean", often translated the "Jew", but hardly meaning more than "the man from (the landscape/state) of Judah.
                          > > >
                          > > > Niels Peter Lemche
                          > > >
                          > > > -----Oprindelig meddelelse-----
                          > > > Fra: ANE-2@yahoogroups.com [mailto:ANE-2@yahoogroups.com] På vegne af Henrik Rasmussen
                          > > > Sendt: den 30 december 2009 14:26
                          > > > Til: ANE-2@yahoogroups.com
                          > > > Emne: Re: [ANE-2] 7th century Judaism or YHWHism
                          > > >
                          > > > Is it correct to refer to the Israelites as Jews, prior to the Babylonian
                          > > > exile?
                          > > >
                          > > > Rik Rasmussen
                          > > >
                          > > >
                          > > >
                          > > >
                          > > >
                          > >
                          > >
                          > >
                          > > ------------------------------------
                          > >
                          > > Yahoo! Groups Links
                          > >
                          > >
                          > >
                          > >
                          >
                          >
                          >
                          > ------------------------------------
                          >
                          > Yahoo! Groups Links
                          >
                          >
                          >
                          >
                          >
                          > ------------------------------------
                          >
                          > Yahoo! Groups Links
                          >
                          >
                          >
                          >
                        • Niels Peter Lemche
                          OK, his days, Trolle s ... ours, as I also belonged there. Niels Peter Lemche ... Fra: ANE-2@yahoogroups.com [mailto:ANE-2@yahoogroups.com] På vegne af Henrik
                          Message 12 of 27 , Dec 30, 2009
                            OK, his days, Trolle's ... ours, as I also belonged there.

                            Niels Peter Lemche

                            -----Oprindelig meddelelse-----
                            Fra: ANE-2@yahoogroups.com [mailto:ANE-2@yahoogroups.com] På vegne af Henrik Rasmussen
                            Sendt: den 30 december 2009 14:56
                            Til: ANE-2@yahoogroups.com
                            Emne: Re: SV: [ANE-2] 7th century Judaism or YHWHism

                            Niels, when you say "that time", and "those days", are you speaking of the
                            Sennacherib period, or the period of these scholars?

                            Rik Rasmussen




                            On Wed, Dec 30, 2009 at 8:52 AM, Niels Peter Lemche <npl@...> wrote:

                            >
                            >
                            > It was quite normal at that time. I have in Danish a translation by Mogens
                            > Trolle Larsen, that even stresses the meaning of "Jew". Mogens is hardly
                            > more impressed by biblicism than Oppenheimer was. It had to do with the
                            > general situation in those days.
                            >
                            >
                            > Niels Peter Lemche
                            >
                            > -----Oprindelig meddelelse-----
                            > Fra: ANE-2@yahoogroups.com <ANE-2%40yahoogroups.com> [mailto:
                            > ANE-2@yahoogroups.com <ANE-2%40yahoogroups.com>] På vegne af victor
                            > avigdor hurowitz
                            > Sendt: den 30 december 2009 14:50
                            >
                            > Til: ANE-2@yahoogroups.com <ANE-2%40yahoogroups.com>
                            > Emne: Re: SV: [ANE-2] 7th century Judaism or YHWHism
                            >
                            >
                            > No less a giant than A. Leo Oppenheim was one of those who
                            > translated the passage you
                            > refer to from Sennacherib's annals as "Hezeqiah the Jew". Oppenheim was
                            > not known for an affinity to biblification and even then I'm sure he had
                            > some sense of the developing nuances of words (he had something to do with
                            > the CAD). It would be interesting to hear why he translated Jew rather
                            > than Judean.
                            > Victor Hurowitz
                            > BGU
                            >
                            > On Wed, 30 Dec 2009, Niels Peter Lemche wrote:
                            >
                            > > It is an anachronism, before the Hellenistic Age. It is a left-over from
                            > the days when the biblical history of Israel's past as the twelve tribes
                            > migrating the desert, storming the land of Canaan, and settling there as a
                            > nation of twelve tribes was still au courant.
                            > >
                            > > When Sennacherib refers to Hezekiah, it is a the "Judean", often
                            > translated the "Jew", but hardly meaning more than "the man from (the
                            > landscape/state) of Judah.
                            > >
                            > > Niels Peter Lemche
                            > >
                            > > -----Oprindelig meddelelse-----
                            > > Fra: ANE-2@yahoogroups.com <ANE-2%40yahoogroups.com> [mailto:
                            > ANE-2@yahoogroups.com <ANE-2%40yahoogroups.com>] På vegne af Henrik
                            > Rasmussen
                            > > Sendt: den 30 december 2009 14:26
                            > > Til: ANE-2@yahoogroups.com <ANE-2%40yahoogroups.com>
                            > > Emne: Re: [ANE-2] 7th century Judaism or YHWHism
                            > >
                            > > Is it correct to refer to the Israelites as Jews, prior to the Babylonian
                            > > exile?
                            > >
                            > > Rik Rasmussen
                            > >
                            > >
                            > >
                            > >
                            > >
                            >
                            > ------------------------------------
                            >
                            > Yahoo! Groups Links
                            >
                            >
                            >


                            [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]



                            ------------------------------------

                            Yahoo! Groups Links
                          • Raz Kletter
                            Dear David, I am not sure how the various matters you mention are connected to the issue of Judaism/Yahwism in the 7th century. As for the debate about the
                            Message 13 of 27 , Dec 30, 2009
                              Dear David,
                              I am not sure how the various matters you mention are connected to the issue
                              of Judaism/Yahwism in the 7th century.
                              As for the debate about the abolishment of cult at Arad and Tel Beer Sheba,
                              the latest addition is by Zeev Herzog in *Eretz Israel* vol. 29 (Stern Book;
                              Hebrew, English abstract). Herzog dates the abolishment to Hezekiah's days,
                              not the 7th century.
                              Raz Kletter



                              2009/12/29 David Hall <dqhall59@...>

                              >
                              >
                              > The finding of the an ashlar limestone horned altar with the stones reused
                              > in a later structure at Tel Beersheva (Beersheba) has been interpreted by
                              > some as evidence for a theory of Hezekiah's people trying to centralize
                              > worship in Jerusalem. With the fall of Samaria during the eighth century
                              > reign of Tiglath Pileser III there may have been a migration of Israelites
                              > to the south as there was a noticed increase in the size of Jerusalem during
                              > these times.
                              >
                              > It is supposed that Hosea testified against the worship of the
                              > calf at Samaria during the time of Jerobaom II. Hosea testified against the
                              > many altars in the land as the Lord desired mercy and not sacrifice (Hos.
                              > 6:6). It was righteousness that was desired; not killing, adultery, and
                              > prostitution. The author of the book stated the sins of Israel were cause
                              > of its coming downfall.
                              >
                              > At Arad the 5 cubit by 5 cubit altar of unhewn stones was covered over with
                              > dirt and the two incense altars were laid aside a wall of the sanctuary
                              > there. This too has been interpreted by some as evidence for the
                              > abandonment of satellite sanctuaries and high places as imposed by the
                              > priestly class in Jerusalem before the exile.
                              >
                              > Repeated attempts to reform the Jerusalem cultic practice may have been
                              > hindered by calls for maintaining the status quo and Jewish unity.
                              >
                              > David Q. Hall
                              > Falls Church, Virginia
                              >
                              > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                              >
                              >
                              >


                              --
                              Raz Kletter
                              Varsaallika 6a Tallinn 12013 Estonia


                              [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                            • Niels Peter Lemche
                              ok even sillier Noels Peter Lemche ... Fra: ANE-2@yahoogroups.com [mailto:ANE-2@yahoogroups.com] På vegne af Robert M Whiting Sendt: den 30 december 2009
                              Message 14 of 27 , Dec 30, 2009
                                ok even sillier

                                Noels Peter Lemche

                                -----Oprindelig meddelelse-----
                                Fra: ANE-2@yahoogroups.com [mailto:ANE-2@yahoogroups.com] På vegne af Robert M Whiting
                                Sendt: den 30 december 2009 15:19
                                Til: ANE-2@yahoogroups.com
                                Emne: Re: SV: SV: SV: [ANE-2] 7th century Judaism or YHWHism

                                Nope -- that's Oppenheim too.

                                http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Max_von_Oppenheim

                                Stop digging, NP.

                                Bob Whiting
                                whiting@...

                                On Wed, 30 Dec 2009, Niels Peter Lemche wrote:

                                > sorry, silly, but there was in fact an Oppenheimer, Max Freiherr von,
                                > with hus huge work on beduins.
                                >
                                > Niels Peter Lemche
                                >
                                > -----Oprindelig meddelelse-----
                                > Fra: ANE-2@yahoogroups.com [mailto:ANE-2@yahoogroups.com] På vegne af victor avigdor hurowitz
                                > Sendt: den 30 december 2009 14:58
                                > Til: ANE-2@yahoogroups.com
                                > Emne: Re: SV: SV: [ANE-2] 7th century Judaism or YHWHism
                                >
                                > Oppenheimer? I didn't know he was interested in ANE. Didn't he help invent
                                > the bomb?
                                > Victor Hurowitz
                                > BGU
                                >
                                >
                                >
                                > On Wed, 30 Dec 2009, Niels Peter Lemche wrote:
                                >
                                > > It was quite normal at that time. I have in Danish a translation by Mogens Trolle Larsen, that even stresses the meaning of "Jew". Mogens is hardly more impressed by biblicism than Oppenheimer was. It had to do with the general situation in those days.
                                > >
                                > > Niels Peter Lemche
                                > >
                                > > -----Oprindelig meddelelse-----
                                > > Fra: ANE-2@yahoogroups.com [mailto:ANE-2@yahoogroups.com] På vegne af victor avigdor hurowitz
                                > > Sendt: den 30 december 2009 14:50
                                > > Til: ANE-2@yahoogroups.com
                                > > Emne: Re: SV: [ANE-2] 7th century Judaism or YHWHism
                                > >
                                > > No less a giant than A. Leo Oppenheim was one of those who
                                > > translated the passage you
                                > > refer to from Sennacherib's annals as "Hezeqiah the Jew". Oppenheim was
                                > > not known for an affinity to biblification and even then I'm sure he had
                                > > some sense of the developing nuances of words (he had something to do with
                                > > the CAD). It would be interesting to hear why he translated Jew rather
                                > > than Judean.
                                > > Victor Hurowitz
                                > > BGU
                                > >
                                > >
                                > >
                                > > On Wed, 30 Dec 2009, Niels Peter Lemche wrote:
                                > >
                                > > > It is an anachronism, before the Hellenistic Age. It is a left-over from the days when the biblical history of Israel's past as the twelve tribes migrating the desert, storming the land of Canaan, and settling there as a nation of twelve tribes was still au courant.
                                > > >
                                > > > When Sennacherib refers to Hezekiah, it is a the "Judean", often translated the "Jew", but hardly meaning more than "the man from (the landscape/state) of Judah.
                                > > >
                                > > > Niels Peter Lemche
                                > > >
                                > > > -----Oprindelig meddelelse-----
                                > > > Fra: ANE-2@yahoogroups.com [mailto:ANE-2@yahoogroups.com] På vegne af Henrik Rasmussen
                                > > > Sendt: den 30 december 2009 14:26
                                > > > Til: ANE-2@yahoogroups.com
                                > > > Emne: Re: [ANE-2] 7th century Judaism or YHWHism
                                > > >
                                > > > Is it correct to refer to the Israelites as Jews, prior to the Babylonian
                                > > > exile?
                                > > >
                                > > > Rik Rasmussen
                                > > >
                                > > >
                                > > >
                                > > >
                                > > >
                                > >
                                > >
                                > >
                                > > ------------------------------------
                                > >
                                > > Yahoo! Groups Links
                                > >
                                > >
                                > >
                                > >
                                >
                                >
                                >
                                > ------------------------------------
                                >
                                > Yahoo! Groups Links
                                >
                                >
                                >
                                >
                                >
                                > ------------------------------------
                                >
                                > Yahoo! Groups Links
                                >
                                >
                                >
                                >


                                ------------------------------------

                                Yahoo! Groups Links
                              • Peter T. Daniels
                                Are you sure about the Freiherr s name?  -- Peter T. Daniels grammatim@verizon.net
                                Message 15 of 27 , Dec 30, 2009
                                  Are you sure about the Freiherr's name?
                                   --
                                  Peter T. Daniels grammatim@...


                                  >
                                  >From: Niels Peter Lemche <npl@...>
                                  >To: ANE-2@yahoogroups.com
                                  >Sent: Wed, December 30, 2009 9:14:02 AM
                                  >Subject: SV: SV: SV: [ANE-2] 7th century Judaism or YHWHism
                                  >

                                  >sorry, silly, but there was in fact an Oppenheimer, Max Freiherr von, with hus huge work on beduins.
                                  >
                                  >Niels Peter Lemche
                                  >
                                  >-----Oprindelig meddelelse-- ---
                                  >Fra: ANE-2@yahoogroups. com [mailto:ANE-2@yahoogroups. com] På vegne af victor avigdor hurowitz
                                  >Sendt: den 30 december 2009 14:58
                                  >Til: ANE-2@yahoogroups. com
                                  >Emne: Re: SV: SV: [ANE-2] 7th century Judaism or YHWHism
                                  >
                                  >Oppenheimer? I didn't know he was interested in ANE. Didn't he help invent
                                  >the bomb?
                                  >Victor Hurowitz
                                  >BGU
                                  >
                                  >On Wed, 30 Dec 2009, Niels Peter Lemche wrote:
                                  >
                                  >> It was quite normal at that time. I have in Danish a translation by Mogens Trolle Larsen, that even stresses the meaning of "Jew". Mogens is hardly more impressed by biblicism than Oppenheimer was. It had to do with the general situation in those days.
                                  >>
                                  >> Niels Peter Lemche
                                • Niels Peter Lemche
                                  yes, with recent corrections Niels Peter Lemche ... Fra: ANE-2@yahoogroups.com [mailto:ANE-2@yahoogroups.com] På vegne af Peter T. Daniels Sendt: den 30
                                  Message 16 of 27 , Dec 30, 2009
                                    yes, with recent corrections

                                    Niels Peter Lemche

                                    -----Oprindelig meddelelse-----
                                    Fra: ANE-2@yahoogroups.com [mailto:ANE-2@yahoogroups.com] På vegne af Peter T. Daniels
                                    Sendt: den 30 december 2009 15:32
                                    Til: ANE-2@yahoogroups.com
                                    Emne: Re: SV: SV: SV: [ANE-2] 7th century Judaism or YHWHism

                                    Are you sure about the Freiherr's name?
                                     --
                                    Peter T. Daniels grammatim@...


                                    >
                                    >From: Niels Peter Lemche <npl@...>
                                    >To: ANE-2@yahoogroups.com
                                    >Sent: Wed, December 30, 2009 9:14:02 AM
                                    >Subject: SV: SV: SV: [ANE-2] 7th century Judaism or YHWHism
                                    >

                                    >sorry, silly, but there was in fact an Oppenheimer, Max Freiherr von, with hus huge work on beduins.
                                    >
                                    >Niels Peter Lemche
                                    >
                                    >-----Oprindelig meddelelse-- ---
                                    >Fra: ANE-2@yahoogroups. com [mailto:ANE-2@yahoogroups. com] På vegne af victor avigdor hurowitz
                                    >Sendt: den 30 december 2009 14:58
                                    >Til: ANE-2@yahoogroups. com
                                    >Emne: Re: SV: SV: [ANE-2] 7th century Judaism or YHWHism
                                    >
                                    >Oppenheimer? I didn't know he was interested in ANE. Didn't he help invent
                                    >the bomb?
                                    >Victor Hurowitz
                                    >BGU
                                    >
                                    >On Wed, 30 Dec 2009, Niels Peter Lemche wrote:
                                    >
                                    >> It was quite normal at that time. I have in Danish a translation by Mogens Trolle Larsen, that even stresses the meaning of "Jew". Mogens is hardly more impressed by biblicism than Oppenheimer was. It had to do with the general situation in those days.

                                    >>
                                    >> Niels Peter Lemche


                                    ------------------------------------

                                    Yahoo! Groups Links
                                  • victor avigdor hurowitz
                                    I would think that for purposes of ANE you would first associate Max Freiherr von Oppenheim with Tell Halaf. Victor Hurowitz BGU
                                    Message 17 of 27 , Dec 30, 2009
                                      I would think that for purposes of ANE you would first associate Max
                                      Freiherr von Oppenheim with Tell Halaf.
                                      Victor Hurowitz
                                      BGU



                                      On Wed, 30 Dec 2009, Niels Peter Lemche wrote:

                                      > sorry, silly, but there was in fact an Oppenheimer, Max Freiherr von, with hus huge work on beduins.
                                      >
                                      > Niels Peter Lemche
                                      >
                                      > -----Oprindelig meddelelse-----
                                      > Fra: ANE-2@yahoogroups.com [mailto:ANE-2@yahoogroups.com] På vegne af victor avigdor hurowitz
                                      > Sendt: den 30 december 2009 14:58
                                      > Til: ANE-2@yahoogroups.com
                                      > Emne: Re: SV: SV: [ANE-2] 7th century Judaism or YHWHism
                                      >
                                      > Oppenheimer? I didn't know he was interested in ANE. Didn't he help invent
                                      > the bomb?
                                      > Victor Hurowitz
                                      > BGU
                                      >
                                      >
                                      >
                                      > On Wed, 30 Dec 2009, Niels Peter Lemche wrote:
                                      >
                                      > > It was quite normal at that time. I have in Danish a translation by Mogens Trolle Larsen, that even stresses the meaning of "Jew". Mogens is hardly more impressed by biblicism than Oppenheimer was. It had to do with the general situation in those days.
                                      > >
                                      > > Niels Peter Lemche
                                      > >
                                      > > -----Oprindelig meddelelse-----
                                      > > Fra: ANE-2@yahoogroups.com [mailto:ANE-2@yahoogroups.com] På vegne af victor avigdor hurowitz
                                      > > Sendt: den 30 december 2009 14:50
                                      > > Til: ANE-2@yahoogroups.com
                                      > > Emne: Re: SV: [ANE-2] 7th century Judaism or YHWHism
                                      > >
                                      > > No less a giant than A. Leo Oppenheim was one of those who
                                      > > translated the passage you
                                      > > refer to from Sennacherib's annals as "Hezeqiah the Jew". Oppenheim was
                                      > > not known for an affinity to biblification and even then I'm sure he had
                                      > > some sense of the developing nuances of words (he had something to do with
                                      > > the CAD). It would be interesting to hear why he translated Jew rather
                                      > > than Judean.
                                      > > Victor Hurowitz
                                      > > BGU
                                      > >
                                      > >
                                      > >
                                      > > On Wed, 30 Dec 2009, Niels Peter Lemche wrote:
                                      > >
                                      > > > It is an anachronism, before the Hellenistic Age. It is a left-over from the days when the biblical history of Israel's past as the twelve tribes migrating the desert, storming the land of Canaan, and settling there as a nation of twelve tribes was still au courant.
                                      > > >
                                      > > > When Sennacherib refers to Hezekiah, it is a the "Judean", often translated the "Jew", but hardly meaning more than "the man from (the landscape/state) of Judah.
                                      > > >
                                      > > > Niels Peter Lemche
                                      > > >
                                      > > > -----Oprindelig meddelelse-----
                                      > > > Fra: ANE-2@yahoogroups.com [mailto:ANE-2@yahoogroups.com] På vegne af Henrik Rasmussen
                                      > > > Sendt: den 30 december 2009 14:26
                                      > > > Til: ANE-2@yahoogroups.com
                                      > > > Emne: Re: [ANE-2] 7th century Judaism or YHWHism
                                      > > >
                                      > > > Is it correct to refer to the Israelites as Jews, prior to the Babylonian
                                      > > > exile?
                                      > > >
                                      > > > Rik Rasmussen
                                      > > >
                                      > > >
                                      > > >
                                      > > >
                                      > > >
                                      > >
                                      > >
                                      > >
                                      > > ------------------------------------
                                      > >
                                      > > Yahoo! Groups Links
                                      > >
                                      > >
                                      > >
                                      > >
                                      >
                                      >
                                      >
                                      > ------------------------------------
                                      >
                                      > Yahoo! Groups Links
                                      >
                                      >
                                      >
                                      >
                                    • Lisbeth S. Fried
                                      What is an anachronism??? I really don’t get this. Jew is an English word. Let’s forget it, banish it, it’s not worth discussing, it’s meaningless in
                                      Message 18 of 27 , Dec 30, 2009
                                        What is an anachronism???



                                        I really don’t get this. Jew is an English word. Let’s forget it, banish it,
                                        it’s not worth discussing, it’s meaningless in the context of the ANE.

                                        Now, the Hebrew Bible has Yehudim. This word appears in Kings and in
                                        Ezra-Nehemiah (and elsewhere).

                                        Whenever it’s in a pre-exilic context it’s always translated as Judeans,
                                        but when in a post-exilic context it’s always translated as Jews! The same
                                        word!

                                        That is what is anachronistic, translating the same word in two different
                                        ways, imposing 20th century ideology on ancient texts.

                                        Liz Fried







                                        _____

                                        From: ANE-2@yahoogroups.com [mailto:ANE-2@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of
                                        Niels Peter Lemche
                                        Sent: Wednesday, December 30, 2009 8:43 AM
                                        To: ANE-2@yahoogroups.com
                                        Subject: SV: [ANE-2] 7th century Judaism or YHWHism





                                        It is an anachronism, before the Hellenistic Age. It is a left-over from the
                                        days when the biblical history of Israel's past as the twelve tribes
                                        migrating the desert, storming the land of Canaan, and settling there as a
                                        nation of twelve tribes was still au courant.

                                        When Sennacherib refers to Hezekiah, it is a the "Judean", often translated
                                        the "Jew", but hardly meaning more than "the man from (the landscape/state)
                                        of Judah.

                                        Niels Peter Lemche

                                        -----Oprindelig meddelelse-----
                                        Fra: ANE-2@yahoogroups. <mailto:ANE-2%40yahoogroups.com> com
                                        [mailto:ANE-2@yahoogroups. <mailto:ANE-2%40yahoogroups.com> com] På vegne af
                                        Henrik Rasmussen
                                        Sendt: den 30 december 2009 14:26
                                        Til: ANE-2@yahoogroups. <mailto:ANE-2%40yahoogroups.com> com
                                        Emne: Re: [ANE-2] 7th century Judaism or YHWHism

                                        Is it correct to refer to the Israelites as Jews, prior to the Babylonian
                                        exile?

                                        Rik Rasmussen





                                        [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                                      • David Hall
                                        Hezekiah was supposed to have lived in the 8th and 7th centuries.  I could not pinpoint the time of his supposed reforms.  The taking down of these altars
                                        Message 19 of 27 , Dec 30, 2009
                                          Hezekiah was supposed to have lived in the 8th and 7th centuries.  I could not pinpoint the time of his supposed reforms.  The taking down of these altars has been stated as from the time of Hezekiah.  We should not assume the altars were not taken down during the time of Hezekiah, nor that all Bible verses are anachronistic or false. 

                                          As for the historicity of Hosea or when the book was written is subject to opinion.  Was there a real Hosea and some of his words survived; or was he some sort of mythological character like Moses?  Hosea recorded a policy opinion about the altars and high places.  There are archaeological records of altars being taken down.  During the first century the altar at Jerusalem was lit 365 days a year until the Roman conquest c. 70.  The words of the prophet in the name of one desiring, "mercy and not sacrifice, " were not heeded in Jerusalem until the Romans took down the temple in Jerusalem. 

                                          David Q. Hall
                                          Falls Church, Virginia



                                          ________________________________
                                          From: Raz Kletter <kletterr@...>
                                          To: ANE-2@yahoogroups.com
                                          Sent: Wed, December 30, 2009 9:21:59 AM
                                          Subject: Re: [ANE-2] 7th century Judaism or YHWHism

                                           
                                          Dear David,
                                          I am not sure how the various matters you mention are connected to the issue
                                          of Judaism/Yahwism in the 7th century.
                                          As for the debate about the abolishment of cult at Arad and Tel Beer Sheba,
                                          the latest addition is by Zeev Herzog in *Eretz Israel* vol. 29 (Stern Book;
                                          Hebrew, English abstract). Herzog dates the abolishment to Hezekiah's days,
                                          not the 7th century.
                                          Raz Kletter

                                          2009/12/29 David Hall <dqhall59@yahoo. com>

                                          >
                                          >
                                          > The finding of the an ashlar limestone horned altar with the stones reused
                                          > in a later structure at Tel Beersheva (Beersheba) has been interpreted by
                                          > some as evidence for a theory of Hezekiah's people trying to centralize
                                          > worship in Jerusalem. With the fall of Samaria during the eighth century
                                          > reign of Tiglath Pileser III there may have been a migration of Israelites
                                          > to the south as there was a noticed increase in the size of Jerusalem during
                                          > these times.
                                          >
                                          > It is supposed that Hosea testified against the worship of the
                                          > calf at Samaria during the time of Jerobaom II. Hosea testified against the
                                          > many altars in the land as the Lord desired mercy and not sacrifice (Hos.
                                          > 6:6). It was righteousness that was desired; not killing, adultery, and
                                          > prostitution. The author of the book stated the sins of Israel were cause
                                          > of its coming downfall.
                                          >
                                          > At Arad the 5 cubit by 5 cubit altar of unhewn stones was covered over with
                                          > dirt and the two incense altars were laid aside a wall of the sanctuary
                                          > there. This too has been interpreted by some as evidence for the
                                          > abandonment of satellite sanctuaries and high places as imposed by the
                                          > priestly class in Jerusalem before the exile.
                                          >
                                          > Repeated attempts to reform the Jerusalem cultic practice may have been
                                          > hindered by calls for maintaining the status quo and Jewish unity.
                                          >
                                          > David Q. Hall
                                          > Falls Church, Virginia
                                          >
                                          > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                                          >
                                          >
                                          >

                                          --
                                          Raz Kletter
                                          Varsaallika 6a Tallinn 12013 Estonia

                                          [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]







                                          [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                                        • Niels Peter Lemche
                                          David, you do not seem to have grasped my point. Hezekiah is conformed by Sennacherib in his annals. Why put faith in them? Because they was written almost on
                                          Message 20 of 27 , Dec 30, 2009
                                            David,

                                            you do not seem to have grasped my point. Hezekiah is conformed by Sennacherib in his annals. Why put faith in them? Because they was written almost "on the spot". So Hezekiah is no problem. The problem consists of the stories that go with Hezekiah.

                                            It is not an argument to say that the historicity of Hosea is subject to opinion. Everything is, including global heating. Scholarship consists of debates between scholars who do not agree. I am so much of a Hegelian that I believe that we need two different opinions to get any further. However, de debate must follow rules which both parts agree on. Otherwise it is an empty example of rhetoric.

                                            Niels Peter Lemche

                                            -----Oprindelig meddelelse-----
                                            Fra: ANE-2@yahoogroups.com [mailto:ANE-2@yahoogroups.com] På vegne af David Hall
                                            Sendt: den 30 december 2009 20:44
                                            Til: ANE-2@yahoogroups.com
                                            Emne: Re: [ANE-2] 7th century Judaism or YHWHism

                                            Hezekiah was supposed to have lived in the 8th and 7th centuries.  I could not pinpoint the time of his supposed reforms.  The taking down of these altars has been stated as from the time of Hezekiah.  We should not assume the altars were not taken down during the time of Hezekiah, nor that all Bible verses are anachronistic or false. 

                                            As for the historicity of Hosea or when the book was written is subject to opinion.  Was there a real Hosea and some of his words survived; or was he some sort of mythological character like Moses?  Hosea recorded a policy opinion about the altars and high places.  There are archaeological records of altars being taken down.  During the first century the altar at Jerusalem was lit 365 days a year until the Roman conquest c. 70.  The words of the prophet in the name of one desiring, "mercy and not sacrifice, " were not heeded in Jerusalem until the Romans took down the temple in Jerusalem. 

                                            David Q. Hall
                                            Falls Church, Virginia



                                            ________________________________
                                            From: Raz Kletter <kletterr@...>
                                            To: ANE-2@yahoogroups.com
                                            Sent: Wed, December 30, 2009 9:21:59 AM
                                            Subject: Re: [ANE-2] 7th century Judaism or YHWHism

                                             
                                            Dear David,
                                            I am not sure how the various matters you mention are connected to the issue
                                            of Judaism/Yahwism in the 7th century.
                                            As for the debate about the abolishment of cult at Arad and Tel Beer Sheba,
                                            the latest addition is by Zeev Herzog in *Eretz Israel* vol. 29 (Stern Book;
                                            Hebrew, English abstract). Herzog dates the abolishment to Hezekiah's days,
                                            not the 7th century.
                                            Raz Kletter

                                            2009/12/29 David Hall <dqhall59@yahoo. com>

                                            >
                                            >
                                            > The finding of the an ashlar limestone horned altar with the stones reused
                                            > in a later structure at Tel Beersheva (Beersheba) has been interpreted by
                                            > some as evidence for a theory of Hezekiah's people trying to centralize
                                            > worship in Jerusalem. With the fall of Samaria during the eighth century
                                            > reign of Tiglath Pileser III there may have been a migration of Israelites
                                            > to the south as there was a noticed increase in the size of Jerusalem during
                                            > these times.
                                            >
                                            > It is supposed that Hosea testified against the worship of the
                                            > calf at Samaria during the time of Jerobaom II. Hosea testified against the
                                            > many altars in the land as the Lord desired mercy and not sacrifice (Hos.
                                            > 6:6). It was righteousness that was desired; not killing, adultery, and
                                            > prostitution. The author of the book stated the sins of Israel were cause
                                            > of its coming downfall.
                                            >
                                            > At Arad the 5 cubit by 5 cubit altar of unhewn stones was covered over with
                                            > dirt and the two incense altars were laid aside a wall of the sanctuary
                                            > there. This too has been interpreted by some as evidence for the
                                            > abandonment of satellite sanctuaries and high places as imposed by the
                                            > priestly class in Jerusalem before the exile.
                                            >
                                            > Repeated attempts to reform the Jerusalem cultic practice may have been
                                            > hindered by calls for maintaining the status quo and Jewish unity.
                                            >
                                            > David Q. Hall
                                            > Falls Church, Virginia
                                            >
                                            > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                                            >
                                            >
                                            >

                                            --
                                            Raz Kletter
                                            Varsaallika 6a Tallinn 12013 Estonia

                                            [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]







                                            [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]



                                            ------------------------------------

                                            Yahoo! Groups Links
                                          • RUSSELLGMIRKIN@aol.com
                                            David, You write: The taking down of these altars has been stated as from the time of Hezekiah. We should not assume the altars were not taken down during
                                            Message 21 of 27 , Dec 30, 2009
                                              David,

                                              You write: "The taking down of these altars has been stated as from the
                                              time of Hezekiah. We should not assume the altars were not taken down during
                                              the time of Hezekiah, nor that all Bible verses are anachronistic or
                                              false."

                                              First, altars were taken down under many Jewish kings, but only the ones
                                              potentially datable to Hezekiah or Josiah usually enter the argument. See
                                              N. Na'aman, "The Debated Historicity of Hezekiah's Reform in the Light of
                                              Historical and Archaeological Evidence," ZAW 107 (1995) 179-95.

                                              Second, I believe you are under-reporting the violent destructions of the
                                              biblical reforms. According to 2 Kgs 18.4-5, "He [Hezekiah] removed the high
                                              places, broke down the pillars and cut down the sacred pole. He broke in
                                              pieces the bronze serpent that Moses had made..." Even more detailed is the
                                              account of Josiah's reforms at 2 Kgs 23.4-20 (too extensive to quote in
                                              full). Josiah reportedly burned the vessels of Baal and Asherah in the fields
                                              of Kidron (23.4), took the image of Asherah and "burned it at the Wadi
                                              Kidron, beat it to dust and threw the dust of it upon the graves of the common
                                              people" (23.6), "broke down the houses" of temple personnel (23.7), defiled
                                              and broke down the high places at the gates of all the cities (22.8),
                                              "pulled down [roof altars] and broke in pieces, and threw the rubble into the
                                              Wadi Kidron" (22.10), "broke the pillars in pieces, cut down the sacred
                                              poles, and covered the sites with human bones" (23.14), defiled altars by
                                              burning human bones on them (23.16), slaughtered all the priests of the high
                                              places and burned their bones on the altars (23.20).

                                              None of these destructive acts correspond to the carefully dismantled and
                                              stored altars at the archaeological sites you mention. Back in the heyday
                                              of biblical archaeology, archaeologists expected to see signs of
                                              devastation, altars broken to rubble, human bones and the like, throughout sites in
                                              Samaria and Judah in the time of Hezekiah and Josiah. Because none of this
                                              was found, the biblical reforms have been tamely described since then in
                                              very modest language by those seeking a correlation with archaeological
                                              findings, but I don't believe this does justice to either the archaeological
                                              evidence or the biblical text.

                                              Best regards,
                                              Russell Gmirkin



                                              [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                                            • William D. Tallman
                                              ... In D.B. Redford: Egypt, Canaan, and Israel in Ancient Times , Princeton University Press, 1992, p 295, is this sentence: Kenites, Yerahmeelites,
                                              Message 22 of 27 , Dec 30, 2009
                                                On Wed, Dec 30, 2009 at 02:42:37PM +0100, Niels Peter Lemche wrote:
                                                > It is an anachronism, before the Hellenistic Age. It is a left-over
                                                > from the days when the biblical history of Israel's past as the twelve
                                                > tribes migrating the desert, storming the land of Canaan, and settling
                                                > there as a nation of twelve tribes was still au courant.
                                                >
                                                > When Sennacherib refers to Hezekiah, it is a the "Judean", often
                                                > translated the "Jew", but hardly meaning more than "the man from (the
                                                > landscape/state) of Judah.
                                                >
                                                > Niels Peter Lemche

                                                In D.B. Redford: "Egypt, Canaan, and Israel in Ancient Times", Princeton
                                                University Press, 1992, p 295, is this sentence:

                                                "Kenites, Yerahmeelites, Calebites, Othnielites, and others constituted
                                                the population of the rugged country called _Har Yehuda_, "the mountain
                                                (district) of the gorge(s)."

                                                The citations are M. Noth, _The History of Israel_ (London, 1959),
                                                56-58; E. Lipinsky _VT 23_ (1973), 380-381; R. de Vaux, _The Early
                                                History of Israel_ (Philadelphia, 1978), 547.

                                                I don't have these citations available to check, so I can only suppose
                                                that they make the same assertion. Anyone clarify this for me?

                                                The term _Har Yehuda_ is apparently a proper noun. _Har_ is (loosely?)
                                                translated as "mountain" or "mountain range/region/district(?)"; is
                                                _Yehuda_ then the Hebrew(?) word for "gorge(s)"? If not, then is there
                                                an etymological connection?

                                                If so, then the _Yehuda(i?)_ could be construed as "(the people from)
                                                the gorges", one might suppose. I'm well aware that there is a hugely
                                                powerful tacit assumption that the proper noun is a "Biblical term", and
                                                therefore is exempt from legitimate question. That said, might there be
                                                some support for this conjecture?

                                                Thanks for reading.

                                                William D. Tallman
                                                343 Fleming Drive
                                                Sequim, WA 98382
                                                (360) 681-0247
                                              • Niels Peter Lemche
                                                It is all based on the Old Testament. Noth has a long introductory chapter on the names of the tribes of Israel. He -- like de Vaux -- reckons Judah to have
                                                Message 23 of 27 , Dec 30, 2009
                                                  It is all based on the Old Testament. Noth has a long introductory chapter on the names of the tribes of Israel. He -- like de Vaux -- reckons Judah to have been originally a place name. And because of his authority, it has been generally accepted, although no longer discussed.

                                                  Niels Peter Lemche

                                                  -----Oprindelig meddelelse-----
                                                  Fra: ANE-2@yahoogroups.com [mailto:ANE-2@yahoogroups.com] På vegne af William D. Tallman
                                                  Sendt: den 31 december 2009 08:06
                                                  Til: ANE-2@yahoogroups.com
                                                  Emne: Re: SV: [ANE-2] 7th century Judaism or YHWHism

                                                  On Wed, Dec 30, 2009 at 02:42:37PM +0100, Niels Peter Lemche wrote:
                                                  > It is an anachronism, before the Hellenistic Age. It is a left-over
                                                  > from the days when the biblical history of Israel's past as the twelve
                                                  > tribes migrating the desert, storming the land of Canaan, and settling
                                                  > there as a nation of twelve tribes was still au courant.
                                                  >
                                                  > When Sennacherib refers to Hezekiah, it is a the "Judean", often
                                                  > translated the "Jew", but hardly meaning more than "the man from (the
                                                  > landscape/state) of Judah.
                                                  >
                                                  > Niels Peter Lemche

                                                  In D.B. Redford: "Egypt, Canaan, and Israel in Ancient Times", Princeton
                                                  University Press, 1992, p 295, is this sentence:

                                                  "Kenites, Yerahmeelites, Calebites, Othnielites, and others constituted
                                                  the population of the rugged country called _Har Yehuda_, "the mountain
                                                  (district) of the gorge(s)."

                                                  The citations are M. Noth, _The History of Israel_ (London, 1959),
                                                  56-58; E. Lipinsky _VT 23_ (1973), 380-381; R. de Vaux, _The Early
                                                  History of Israel_ (Philadelphia, 1978), 547.

                                                  I don't have these citations available to check, so I can only suppose
                                                  that they make the same assertion. Anyone clarify this for me?

                                                  The term _Har Yehuda_ is apparently a proper noun. _Har_ is (loosely?)
                                                  translated as "mountain" or "mountain range/region/district(?)"; is
                                                  _Yehuda_ then the Hebrew(?) word for "gorge(s)"? If not, then is there
                                                  an etymological connection?

                                                  If so, then the _Yehuda(i?)_ could be construed as "(the people from)
                                                  the gorges", one might suppose. I'm well aware that there is a hugely
                                                  powerful tacit assumption that the proper noun is a "Biblical term", and
                                                  therefore is exempt from legitimate question. That said, might there be
                                                  some support for this conjecture?

                                                  Thanks for reading.

                                                  William D. Tallman
                                                  343 Fleming Drive
                                                  Sequim, WA 98382
                                                  (360) 681-0247



                                                  ------------------------------------

                                                  Yahoo! Groups Links
                                                • Graham Hagens
                                                  ... That Oppenheimer may well have been. As the bomb went off he famously quoted the line from the Bhagavad Gita in which Krishna tells Arjuna that he is
                                                  Message 24 of 27 , Jan 3, 2010
                                                    --- On Wed, 12/30/09, victor avigdor hurowitz <victor@...> wrote:

                                                    > Oppenheimer? I didn't know he was
                                                    > interested in ANE. Didn't he help invent
                                                    > the bomb?

                                                    That Oppenheimer may well have been. As the bomb went off he famously quoted the line from the Bhagavad Gita in which Krishna tells Arjuna that he is death the destroyer of worlds. Since that poem was purportedly first recited in Persian (or Hellenistic) Taxila, it would be fall within the boundaries of the ANE as defined by this list.
                                                    It is probably of absolutely no significance at all that Pakistan's nuclear warheads are said to be stored very close to the ruins of Taxila.

                                                    Graham Hagens
                                                    Hamilton, Ontario
                                                  • Brian Roberts
                                                    Liz, Wow. I m happy to see you so passionate about it. Is there a compelling reason why the word should be translated differently due entirely to different
                                                    Message 25 of 27 , Jan 4, 2010
                                                      Liz,

                                                      Wow. I'm happy to see you so passionate about it.

                                                      Is there a compelling reason why the word should be translated differently due entirely to different historical/cultural contexts? Or could this be something along the lines of nephesh? Which can be translated about a couple dozen different ways. I don't mean to suggest that nephesh and yehudim are easily parallelled. Nephesh was just the first instance I know of a Hebrew word that can, sometimes purely by translator's preference, be rendered "soul" in one passage, but "life" in another, and "beast" in yet another.

                                                      best,

                                                      R. Brian Roberts
                                                      Charlotte, North Carolina

                                                      --- On Wed, 12/30/09, Lisbeth S. Fried <lizfried@...> wrote:

                                                      From: Lisbeth S. Fried <lizfried@...>
                                                      Subject: RE: [ANE-2] 7th century Judaism or YHWHism
                                                      To: ANE-2@yahoogroups.com
                                                      Date: Wednesday, December 30, 2009, 1:14 PM







                                                       









                                                      What is an anachronism? ??



                                                      I really don’t get this. Jew is an English word. Let’s forget it, banish it,

                                                      it’s not worth discussing, it’s meaningless in the context of the ANE.



                                                      Now, the Hebrew Bible has Yehudim. This word appears in Kings and in

                                                      Ezra-Nehemiah (and elsewhere).



                                                      Whenever it’s in a pre-exilic context it’s always translated as Judeans,

                                                      but when in a post-exilic context it’s always translated as Jews! The same

                                                      word!



                                                      That is what is anachronistic, translating the same word in two different

                                                      ways, imposing 20th century ideology on ancient texts.



                                                      Liz Fried



                                                      _____



                                                      From: ANE-2@yahoogroups. com [mailto:ANE-2@yahoogroups. com] On Behalf Of

                                                      Niels Peter Lemche

                                                      Sent: Wednesday, December 30, 2009 8:43 AM

                                                      To: ANE-2@yahoogroups. com

                                                      Subject: SV: [ANE-2] 7th century Judaism or YHWHism



                                                      It is an anachronism, before the Hellenistic Age. It is a left-over from the

                                                      days when the biblical history of Israel's past as the twelve tribes

                                                      migrating the desert, storming the land of Canaan, and settling there as a

                                                      nation of twelve tribes was still au courant.



                                                      When Sennacherib refers to Hezekiah, it is a the "Judean", often translated

                                                      the "Jew", but hardly meaning more than "the man from (the landscape/state)

                                                      of Judah.



                                                      Niels Peter Lemche



                                                      -----Oprindelig meddelelse-- ---

                                                      Fra: ANE-2@yahoogroups. <mailto:ANE- 2%40yahoogroups. com> com

                                                      [mailto:ANE- 2@yahoogroups. <mailto:ANE- 2%40yahoogroups. com> com] På vegne af

                                                      Henrik Rasmussen

                                                      Sendt: den 30 december 2009 14:26

                                                      Til: ANE-2@yahoogroups. <mailto:ANE- 2%40yahoogroups. com> com

                                                      Emne: Re: [ANE-2] 7th century Judaism or YHWHism



                                                      Is it correct to refer to the Israelites as Jews, prior to the Babylonian

                                                      exile?



                                                      Rik Rasmussen



                                                      [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

























                                                      [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                                                    • Jack Kilmon
                                                      ... From: Niels Peter Lemche Sent: Wednesday, December 30, 2009 3:37 AM To: Subject: SV: [ANE-2] 7th century Judaism
                                                      Message 26 of 27 , Jan 5, 2010
                                                        --------------------------------------------------
                                                        From: "Niels Peter Lemche" <npl@...>
                                                        Sent: Wednesday, December 30, 2009 3:37 AM
                                                        To: <ANE-2@yahoogroups.com>
                                                        Subject: SV: [ANE-2] 7th century Judaism or YHWHism


                                                        >
                                                        > His mail was in answer of Jack Kilmon's previous one:
                                                        >
                                                        > First paragraph:
                                                        >
                                                        > 1: The Hebrew Bible says that a kind of centralization took place in the
                                                        > days of the Judean king Hezekiah. Although he did not -- according to 2
                                                        > Kings -- go far enough. Josiah did better than him (but cf. the
                                                        > corrections in Chronicles). This is an old assumption not really
                                                        > supported by extra-biblical evidence. But somehow people should read
                                                        > their Bible more carefully, as it also states that Josiah's reform was a
                                                        > failure, and that his successors took up the evil habits of their
                                                        > forefathers. Ezra is a totally obscure person, except in tradition (the
                                                        > genealogy presented would have made him a very old chap when he arrived
                                                        > in Jerusalem, and he at least had nothing to do with rebuilding
                                                        > activities). The building of Haggai's temple may have happened, although
                                                        > now severely disputed by modern scholars like Diana Edelman who places
                                                        > it much later, in the 5th century. The missing indications of a
                                                        > resettlement of Jerusalem before the late 5th or even early 4th century
                                                        > BCE also speaks again the assertion made by the Bible that it happened
                                                        > in 516 BCE. So to place Ezra in tghe line of centralization is
                                                        > speculation.
                                                        >
                                                        > 2: The idea of the Exodus story and its relations to Jerusalem is
                                                        > another example of pure speculation. Jack should not be blamed too much,
                                                        > as this was no more than many people were asserting when he was young.
                                                        > The members of that generation of scholars -- including the venerable
                                                        > names of Albrecht Alt and Martin Noth -- have by later colleagues been
                                                        > termed "die grossen Hypothesenmacher".
                                                        >
                                                        > Then in the second paragraph we find a number of old ideas -- or
                                                        > assertions.
                                                        >
                                                        > 1: Canaan as a term for Palestine in the 1st millennium. When we in this
                                                        > millennium find extra-biblical references, they say "Phoenicia". Jack's
                                                        > introducing biblical geography as if it was historical geography.
                                                        >
                                                        > 2: the Dating of the Exodus narrative to the 8th century BCE: Au courant
                                                        > with the opinion of critical scholars 40 to 50 years ago. It is
                                                        > generally not accepted anymore, and for many reasons. Pentateucal
                                                        > studies has made many steps forward since those days, since the Toronto
                                                        > lectures of Winnett, the teacher of Van Seters. So if people want to
                                                        > understand what has happened, a brush up would be recommendable. A
                                                        > rather traditional -- in the modern sense -- survey which nevertheless
                                                        > includes much of interest as to these changes was published a couple of
                                                        > years ago by Ska. We have witnessed from morately conservative Israeli
                                                        > scholars an endeavour to defend old dates, especially of the Priestly
                                                        > writer and based on language. This discussion hasd entered a new phase
                                                        > with the publication of a number of studies tearing away this
                                                        > foundation, by Knauf, Rezetko, Young and more.
                                                        >
                                                        > When this list opened, it was a demand that the discussion should be
                                                        > based on facts. Readers may want to ask for facts embedded in this new
                                                        > discussion, and when the moderators sometimes are very reluctant to
                                                        > accept mails about biblical topics, they may understand that it was
                                                        > normal in biblical studies to exchange (non-existing) facts with
                                                        > assertions.
                                                        >
                                                        > They may also understand that some of the so-called left wing biblical
                                                        > scholars (normally a term found in American studies -- traditionally
                                                        > European scholarship has been called so, such as the aforementioned Alt
                                                        > and Noth by members of the [William Foxwell] Albright guild, who
                                                        > considered them to be "nihilists" and worse) are not really interested
                                                        > in this discussion about historicity. We prefer today to discuss
                                                        > authors' intents and the memories embedded in their writings. There are
                                                        > also theological reasons for this but this definitely does not belong
                                                        > here. I have done my part of this (so far) in my recent book, The Old
                                                        > Testament between Theology and History from 2008.
                                                        >
                                                        > Niels Peter Lemche
                                                        >

                                                        Niels, I appreciate your viewpoint. Always have. Why? Even though I do
                                                        not agree with some of your positions, I agree with the process. If
                                                        consensus is not challenged, the process stops. One thing that cannot be
                                                        charged is that you do not challenge. BUT in my 70th year I will never
                                                        apologize for having been a student of Professor Albright and good ideas do
                                                        not have expiration dates.

                                                        Hope you have a great New Year,

                                                        Jack

                                                        Jack Kilmon
                                                        San Antonio, TX
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