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Re: [ANE-2] Heshbon

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  • Gene Greenwood
    From this website: http://www.bga.nl/en/articles/oostjor.html#11 I gathered the following: Prof. S.H. Horn, who conducted the excavations at Tell Heshban took
    Message 1 of 12 , Dec 3, 2009
      From this website: http://www.bga.nl/en/articles/oostjor.html#11 I gathered the following:

      "Prof. S.H. Horn, who conducted the
      excavations at Tell Heshban took the view that the city of Heshbon from
      the days of king Sihon was not located in the same place as the city of
      Heshbon from Mesa's time, but nearby it. He suggested that Tell Jalul,
      a large mound not yet excavated, could be the place of former Heshbon. Middle and Late Bronze pottery has been found at the surface of Tell Jalul."

      Refs:
      11. S.H. Horn, Heshbon, in: The Interpreter's Dictionary of the Bible. Supplementary Volume, Nashville 1976, p. 410-411.
      12. R. Ibach, in: L.T. Geraty, Heshbon, Ferrien Springs 1978, p. 215-222.

      Also, (you may correct me on this if I'm wrong) I think the Bible never mentions Heshbon as a city per se. It could refer to a region/valley etc.
      Gene Greenwood. . . .

      Tahoe City, CA


      ________________________________
      From: victor avigdor hurowitz <victor@...>
      To: David Hall <dqhall59@...>
      Cc: ANE-2@yahoogroups.com
      Sent: Thu, December 3, 2009 11:29:32 AM
      Subject: Re: [ANE-2] Heshbon

      this convoluted explanation taxes my imagination.
      Victor Hurowitz
      BGU



      On Thu, 3 Dec 2009, David Hall wrote:

      > In Numbers 21 Israel conquers the cities of the Amorites. Heshbon is one of these cities previously ruled by Sihon. Moses and Joshua were ranking officials of the army according to the story of Exodus, Numbers etc. Further along in this epic poem is the event of the destruction of the cities of the Amorites as far as the Arnon. A flame going out from Heshbon seemed to indicate destruction by fire in the context of Israel smashing cities as described in chapter 21. It might have been a signal fire such as were recorded at Lachish and Azeka according to the Lachish letters dating to the time of Sennacherib's Assyrian conquest. The context of the vanquished Amorites seemed to indicate a succession of burned cities, although this context is difficult to imagine as it is not for sure that Hesban or a series of other Amorite-Edomite cities occupied at the time were smashed in the same generation as described in Numbers.
      >
      > David Q. Hall
      > Falls Church, Virginia
      >
      >
      >
      >
      >
      > ________________________________
      > From: victor avigdor hurowitz <victor@...>
      > To: ANE-2 <ANE-2@yahoogroups.com>
      > Sent: Wed, December 2, 2009 10:10:00 PM
      > Subject: Re: [ANE-2] Heshbon
      >
      > Dear David,
      > I haven't read Horn's book nor do I know much about this poetic,
      > enigmatic passage and whatever historical background it may or may not
      > have, but your statement about the Biblical verse is
      > totally wrong. Moses and Joshua have nothing to do with anything in this
      > passage, and in any case Heshbon is not destroyed here but is
      > the source of fire and flame and this fire consumes Ar of Moab. So how
      > do you turn the verse on its head?
      > Victor Hurowitz
      > BGU
      >
      >
      >
      > On Wed, 2 Dec 2009, David Hall wrote:
      >
      > > Heshbon in Jordan was reported destroyed with fire by order of Moses and Joshua (Numbers 21:28).
      > >
      > > I was able to find studies in honor of Siegfried H. Horn (The Archaeology of Jordan, 1986), but was needing more specific information about the Iron Age I (1200-1000 B.C.) occupation layers there as there was no LBA occupation found. I wondered if anyone knows of any extant reports about Tel Hisban.
      > >
      > > David Q. Hall
      > > Falls Church, Virginia
      > >
      > >
      > >
      > >
      > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
      > >
      > >
      >
      >
      >
      > ------------------------------------
      >
      > Yahoo! Groups Links
      >
      >
      >
      >
      >
      >
      > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
      >
      >



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    • Douglas Petrovich
      . . . the excavations at Tell Heshban took the view that the city of Heshbon from the days of king Sihon was not located in the same place as the city of
      Message 2 of 12 , Dec 3, 2009
        ". . . the excavations at Tell Heshban took the view that the city of Heshbon from the days of king Sihon was not located in the same place as the city of Heshbon from Mesa's time, but nearby it. He suggested that Tell Jalul, a large mound not yet excavated, could be the place of former Heshbon. Middle and Late Bronze pottery has been found at the surface of Tell Jalul."

        Not at all an abnormal phenomenon in the ANE. In the Amuq plain, the Early-Bronze community at Tell Tayinat moved to Tell Achana (Alalakh) for the MB and LB Ages. They seem to have moved back to Tayinat in the early Iron Age, forming the most powerful polity in the plain, which came to be named "Palestin", per Hawkins.

        There is any number of reasons why such a population-shift would take place. Many theorize that shifts in the course of the Orontes are the culprit in the Amuq. I am not sure what is theorized for Heshbon.

        David needs to take a quite a bit more care in coming to the rash conclusions that he does regarding what archaeology tells us about biblical sites. This is not the first time he has sped to faulty claims, but we will not go into problems such as what he does (and others do) with "Ai".

        Doug Petrovich
        Toronto, CA

        [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
      • David Hall
        Thanks for the information about Heshbon.    As far as I know Hazor, Arad, Lachish, and Gibeon have been located by inscriptions.  Jericho was located by
        Message 3 of 12 , Dec 3, 2009
          Thanks for the information about Heshbon.   

          As far as I know Hazor, Arad, Lachish, and Gibeon have been located by inscriptions.  Jericho was located by its name and description of its location.  Samaria was located through geographical description and the preservation of its name, for the Samaritans exist to this day.

          Arad was identified through an inscription on a potsherd.  Y. Aharoni was confused when he could not correlate the description in Numbers 21 with the inscriptions he had uncovered at Tel Arad, for Arad was populated during the EB and IA periods, but not during either the end of the MBII or end of the LBA era both proposed as possibilities for the conquests described in Exodus, Numbers, and Joshua.

          Shoshenq mentioned Arad the Great, Arad Beit Yeroham.  Aharoni suggested two Arads might be Tel Milh (Malhata) and Tel Masos.  Aharoni wrote Tel Milh with its Hyksos ramparts was destroyed at the end of the MBII.   (The Land of the Bible, Aharoni, 1979).  This was about the time the Hyksos were defeated at Avaris and the Egyptian army advanced into Canaan and laid seige to Sharuhen.  There was widespread destruction at the end of the MBII in Canaan including Jericho and Tel Beit Mirsim.  A third Arad at Tel Arad is difficult to correlate with the two other proposed Arads for it results in too many Arads. 

          In Numbers 21 Israel was credited with destroying the towns of the King of Arad.  There were no LBA settlements in the Beersheba - Arad section of the Negev.  This means the search for Exodus is placed back into the MBII-LBa transition.  Merneptah described Israel in Canaan c. 1205 B.C.  The Amaran letters mentioned rulers of city states, yet none of the Israeli tribal affiliations.

          I Kings 6:1 stated the Exodus occurred 480 years after Solomon's temple foundation was begun (c. 960).  This would place the Exodus in the 15th century during the time of Thutmosis III, the Egyptian pharoah who conqured Canaan and Syria.  

          It is annoying to put the broken pieces together and find they do not align.  Albright looked at the evidence and tried to argue for a 1225 Exodus and Joshua conquest, yet certain sites listed as conquered cities were not occupied during this time, even though they might have qualified as semi-Nomadic way stations where passing flocks of goats browsed and jackals hunted for rodents at night.  Some like Aharoni started trying to move town locations to try to resolve the evidence that troubled him.  This has resulted in a multitude of guesses. 

          David Q. Hall
          Falls Church, Virginia  

           

           





          ________________________________
          From: Gene Greenwood <gwoodgeno@...>
          To: ANE-2@yahoogroups.com
          Sent: Thu, December 3, 2009 3:28:44 PM
          Subject: Re: [ANE-2] Heshbon

           
          From this website: http://www.bga nl/en/articles/ oostjor.html# 11 I gathered the following:

          "Prof. S.H. Horn, who conducted the
          excavations at Tell Heshban took the view that the city of Heshbon from
          the days of king Sihon was not located in the same place as the city of
          Heshbon from Mesa's time, but nearby it. He suggested that Tell Jalul,
          a large mound not yet excavated, could be the place of former Heshbon. Middle and Late Bronze pottery has been found at the surface of Tell Jalul."

          Refs:
          11. S.H. Horn, Heshbon, in: The Interpreter' s Dictionary of the Bible. Supplementary Volume, Nashville 1976, p. 410-411.
          12. R. Ibach, in: L.T. Geraty, Heshbon, Ferrien Springs 1978, p. 215-222.

          Also, (you may correct me on this if I'm wrong) I think the Bible never mentions Heshbon as a city per se. It could refer to a region/valley etc.
          Gene Greenwood. . . .

          Tahoe City, CA

          ____________ _________ _________ __
          From: victor avigdor hurowitz <victor@bgumail. bgu.ac.il>
          To: David Hall <dqhall59@yahoo. com>
          Cc: ANE-2@yahoogroups. com
          Sent: Thu, December 3, 2009 11:29:32 AM
          Subject: Re: [ANE-2] Heshbon

          this convoluted explanation taxes my imagination.
          Victor Hurowitz
          BGU

          On Thu, 3 Dec 2009, David Hall wrote:

          > In Numbers 21 Israel conquers the cities of the Amorites. Heshbon is one of these cities previously ruled by Sihon. Moses and Joshua were ranking officials of the army according to the story of Exodus, Numbers etc. Further along in this epic poem is the event of the destruction of the cities of the Amorites as far as the Arnon. A flame going out from Heshbon seemed to indicate destruction by fire in the context of Israel smashing cities as described in chapter 21. It might have been a signal fire such as were recorded at Lachish and Azeka according to the Lachish letters dating to the time of Sennacherib' s Assyrian conquest. The context of the vanquished Amorites seemed to indicate a succession of burned cities, although this context is difficult to imagine as it is not for sure that Hesban or a series of other Amorite-Edomite cities occupied at the time were smashed in the same generation as described in Numbers.
          >
          > David Q. Hall
          > Falls Church, Virginia
          >
          >
          >
          >
          >
          > ____________ _________ _________ __
          > From: victor avigdor hurowitz <victor@bgumail. bgu.ac.il>
          > To: ANE-2 <ANE-2@yahoogroups. com>
          > Sent: Wed, December 2, 2009 10:10:00 PM
          > Subject: Re: [ANE-2] Heshbon
          >
          > Dear David,
          > I haven't read Horn's book nor do I know much about this poetic,
          > enigmatic passage and whatever historical background it may or may not
          > have, but your statement about the Biblical verse is
          > totally wrong. Moses and Joshua have nothing to do with anything in this
          > passage, and in any case Heshbon is not destroyed here but is
          > the source of fire and flame and this fire consumes Ar of Moab. So how
          > do you turn the verse on its head?
          > Victor Hurowitz
          > BGU
          >
          >
          >
          > On Wed, 2 Dec 2009, David Hall wrote:
          >
          > > Heshbon in Jordan was reported destroyed with fire by order of Moses and Joshua (Numbers 21:28).
          > >
          > > I was able to find studies in honor of Siegfried H. Horn (The Archaeology of Jordan, 1986), but was needing more specific information about the Iron Age I (1200-1000 B.C.) occupation layers there as there was no LBA occupation found. I wondered if anyone knows of any extant reports about Tel Hisban.
          > >
          > > David Q. Hall
          > > Falls Church, Virginia
          > >
          > >
          > >
          > >
          > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
          > >
          > >
          >
          >
          >
          > ------------ --------- --------- ------
          >
          > Yahoo! Groups Links
          >
          >
          >
          >
          >
          >
          > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
          >
          >

          ------------ --------- --------- ------

          Yahoo! Groups Links

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          [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
        • Paul Ash
          I find myself somewhat skeptical of the entire name transfer phenomenon that some, particularly conservative, historians/archaeologists adopt, namely because
          Message 4 of 12 , Dec 4, 2009
            I find myself somewhat skeptical of the entire "name transfer" phenomenon that some, particularly conservative, historians/archaeologists adopt, namely because it seems to coincide so closely with any site whose excavation results disagree with the Bible. It seems to be a convenient fallback for maintaining one's conviction that the Bible is hisotrically inerrant. It certainly is not good methodology. There is no proof that I recall that Tel Hesban is or is not biblical Heshbon, but at the same time, there is no proof that any other site is biblical Heshbon either. Based on this, there seems to be no good reason to deny that Tel Hesban is biblical Heshbon, from a historical/archaeological perspective, that is.
            Paul Ash




            [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
          • Edrey, Meir
            Hello David, you can also check out the official web site for Tell Heshbon: http://www.madabaplains.org/hesban/index.html as part of the Madaba plain project:
            Message 5 of 12 , Dec 9, 2009
              Hello David,

              you can also check out the official web site for Tell Heshbon:
              http://www.madabaplains.org/hesban/index.html

              as part of the Madaba plain project:
              http://www.madabaplains.org/index.html

              Meir Edrey
              Johannes Gutenberg Universität
              Mainz, Germany

              ________________________________
              From: ANE-2@yahoogroups.com [ANE-2@yahoogroups.com] on behalf of David Hall [dqhall59@...]
              Sent: Friday, December 04, 2009 3:00 AM
              To: ANE-2@yahoogroups.com
              Subject: Re: [ANE-2] Heshbon ---> Arad <--- Moses
            • Gene Greenwood
              Meir, The Virtual Tour on the website seems to have only one pic. Gene Greenwood Tahoe City, CA ________________________________ From: Edrey, Meir
              Message 6 of 12 , Dec 10, 2009
                Meir,
                The "Virtual Tour" on the website seems to have only one pic.
                Gene Greenwood
                Tahoe City, CA




                ________________________________
                From: "Edrey, Meir" <edrey@...-mainz.de>
                To: "ANE-2@yahoogroups.com" <ANE-2@yahoogroups.com>
                Sent: Wed, December 9, 2009 7:15:09 PM
                Subject: RE: [ANE-2] Heshbon ---> Arad <--- Moses

                Hello David,

                you can also check out the official web site for Tell Heshbon:
                http://www.madabaplains.org/hesban/index.html

                as part of the Madaba plain project:
                http://www.madabaplains.org/index.html

                Meir Edrey
                Johannes Gutenberg Universität
                Mainz, Germany

                ________________________________
                From: ANE-2@yahoogroups.com [ANE-2@yahoogroups.com] on behalf of David Hall [dqhall59@...]
                Sent: Friday, December 04, 2009 3:00 AM
                To: ANE-2@yahoogroups.com
                Subject: Re: [ANE-2] Heshbon ---> Arad <--- Moses




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