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RE: [ANE-2] Heshbon

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  • RICK MANNELL
    There is an excellent series of Reports of the work done at Tell Hesban since 1968 available. See the following link for information.
    Message 1 of 12 , Dec 3, 2009
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      There is an excellent series of Reports of the work done at Tell Hesban since 1968 available.



      See the following link for information.



      http://www.andrews.edu/archaeology/pubs/books/hesban_pub.html





      Richard Mannell



      To: ane-2@yahoogroups.com
      From: dqhall59@...
      Date: Wed, 2 Dec 2009 12:07:27 -0800
      Subject: [ANE-2] Heshbon





      Heshbon in Jordan was reported destroyed with fire by order of Moses and Joshua (Numbers 21:28).

      I was able to find studies in honor of Siegfried H. Horn (The Archaeology of Jordan, 1986), but was needing more specific information about the Iron Age I (1200-1000 B.C.) occupation layers there as there was no LBA occupation found. I wondered if anyone knows of any extant reports about Tel Hisban.

      David Q. Hall
      Falls Church, Virginia

      [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]






      [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
    • David Hall
      In Numbers 21 Israel conquers the cities of the Amorites.  Heshbon is one of these cities previously ruled by Sihon.  Moses and Joshua were ranking officials
      Message 2 of 12 , Dec 3, 2009
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        In Numbers 21 Israel conquers the cities of the Amorites.  Heshbon is one of these cities previously ruled by Sihon.  Moses and Joshua were ranking officials of the army according to the story of Exodus, Numbers etc.  Further along in this epic poem is the event of the destruction of the cities of the Amorites as far as the Arnon.  A flame going out from Heshbon seemed to indicate destruction by fire in the context of Israel smashing cities as described in chapter 21.  It might have been a signal fire such as were recorded at Lachish and Azeka according to the Lachish letters dating to the time of Sennacherib's Assyrian conquest.  The context of the vanquished Amorites seemed to indicate a succession of burned cities, although this context is difficult to imagine as it is not for sure that Hesban or a series of other Amorite-Edomite cities occupied at the time were smashed in the same generation as described in Numbers.  

        David Q. Hall
        Falls Church, Virginia 

         



        ________________________________
        From: victor avigdor hurowitz <victor@...>
        To: ANE-2 <ANE-2@yahoogroups.com>
        Sent: Wed, December 2, 2009 10:10:00 PM
        Subject: Re: [ANE-2] Heshbon

        Dear David,
        I haven't read Horn's book nor do I know much about this poetic,
        enigmatic passage and whatever historical background it may or may not
        have, but your statement about the Biblical verse is
        totally wrong. Moses and Joshua have nothing to do with anything in this
        passage, and in any case Heshbon is not destroyed here but is
        the source of fire and flame and this fire consumes Ar of Moab.  So how
        do you turn the verse on its head?
        Victor Hurowitz
        BGU



        On Wed, 2 Dec 2009, David Hall wrote:

        > Heshbon in Jordan was reported destroyed with fire by order of Moses and Joshua (Numbers 21:28). 
        >
        > I was able to find studies in honor of Siegfried H. Horn (The Archaeology of Jordan, 1986), but was needing more specific information about the Iron Age I (1200-1000 B.C.) occupation layers there as there was no LBA occupation found.  I wondered if anyone knows of any extant reports about Tel Hisban.
        >
        > David Q. Hall
        > Falls Church, Virginia
        >
        >
        >     
        >
        > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
        >
        >



        ------------------------------------

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        [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
      • victor avigdor hurowitz
        this convoluted explanation taxes my imagination. Victor Hurowitz BGU
        Message 3 of 12 , Dec 3, 2009
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          this convoluted explanation taxes my imagination.
          Victor Hurowitz
          BGU



          On Thu, 3 Dec 2009, David Hall wrote:

          > In Numbers 21 Israel conquers the cities of the Amorites.  Heshbon is one of these cities previously ruled by Sihon.  Moses and Joshua were ranking officials of the army according to the story of Exodus, Numbers etc.  Further along in this epic poem is the event of the destruction of the cities of the Amorites as far as the Arnon.  A flame going out from Heshbon seemed to indicate destruction by fire in the context of Israel smashing cities as described in chapter 21.  It might have been a signal fire such as were recorded at Lachish and Azeka according to the Lachish letters dating to the time of Sennacherib's Assyrian conquest.  The context of the vanquished Amorites seemed to indicate a succession of burned cities, although this context is difficult to imagine as it is not for sure that Hesban or a series of other Amorite-Edomite cities occupied at the time were smashed in the same generation as described in Numbers.  
          >
          > David Q. Hall
          > Falls Church, Virginia 
          >
          >  
          >
          >
          >
          > ________________________________
          > From: victor avigdor hurowitz <victor@...>
          > To: ANE-2 <ANE-2@yahoogroups.com>
          > Sent: Wed, December 2, 2009 10:10:00 PM
          > Subject: Re: [ANE-2] Heshbon
          >
          > Dear David,
          > I haven't read Horn's book nor do I know much about this poetic,
          > enigmatic passage and whatever historical background it may or may not
          > have, but your statement about the Biblical verse is
          > totally wrong. Moses and Joshua have nothing to do with anything in this
          > passage, and in any case Heshbon is not destroyed here but is
          > the source of fire and flame and this fire consumes Ar of Moab.  So how
          > do you turn the verse on its head?
          > Victor Hurowitz
          > BGU
          >
          >
          >
          > On Wed, 2 Dec 2009, David Hall wrote:
          >
          > > Heshbon in Jordan was reported destroyed with fire by order of Moses and Joshua (Numbers 21:28). 
          > >
          > > I was able to find studies in honor of Siegfried H. Horn (The Archaeology of Jordan, 1986), but was needing more specific information about the Iron Age I (1200-1000 B.C.) occupation layers there as there was no LBA occupation found.  I wondered if anyone knows of any extant reports about Tel Hisban.
          > >
          > > David Q. Hall
          > > Falls Church, Virginia
          > >
          > >
          > >     
          > >
          > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
          > >
          > >
          >
          >
          >
          > ------------------------------------
          >
          > Yahoo! Groups Links
          >
          >
          >
          >
          >
          >
          > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
          >
          >
        • Gene Greenwood
          From this website: http://www.bga.nl/en/articles/oostjor.html#11 I gathered the following: Prof. S.H. Horn, who conducted the excavations at Tell Heshban took
          Message 4 of 12 , Dec 3, 2009
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            From this website: http://www.bga.nl/en/articles/oostjor.html#11 I gathered the following:

            "Prof. S.H. Horn, who conducted the
            excavations at Tell Heshban took the view that the city of Heshbon from
            the days of king Sihon was not located in the same place as the city of
            Heshbon from Mesa's time, but nearby it. He suggested that Tell Jalul,
            a large mound not yet excavated, could be the place of former Heshbon. Middle and Late Bronze pottery has been found at the surface of Tell Jalul."

            Refs:
            11. S.H. Horn, Heshbon, in: The Interpreter's Dictionary of the Bible. Supplementary Volume, Nashville 1976, p. 410-411.
            12. R. Ibach, in: L.T. Geraty, Heshbon, Ferrien Springs 1978, p. 215-222.

            Also, (you may correct me on this if I'm wrong) I think the Bible never mentions Heshbon as a city per se. It could refer to a region/valley etc.
            Gene Greenwood. . . .

            Tahoe City, CA


            ________________________________
            From: victor avigdor hurowitz <victor@...>
            To: David Hall <dqhall59@...>
            Cc: ANE-2@yahoogroups.com
            Sent: Thu, December 3, 2009 11:29:32 AM
            Subject: Re: [ANE-2] Heshbon

            this convoluted explanation taxes my imagination.
            Victor Hurowitz
            BGU



            On Thu, 3 Dec 2009, David Hall wrote:

            > In Numbers 21 Israel conquers the cities of the Amorites. Heshbon is one of these cities previously ruled by Sihon. Moses and Joshua were ranking officials of the army according to the story of Exodus, Numbers etc. Further along in this epic poem is the event of the destruction of the cities of the Amorites as far as the Arnon. A flame going out from Heshbon seemed to indicate destruction by fire in the context of Israel smashing cities as described in chapter 21. It might have been a signal fire such as were recorded at Lachish and Azeka according to the Lachish letters dating to the time of Sennacherib's Assyrian conquest. The context of the vanquished Amorites seemed to indicate a succession of burned cities, although this context is difficult to imagine as it is not for sure that Hesban or a series of other Amorite-Edomite cities occupied at the time were smashed in the same generation as described in Numbers.
            >
            > David Q. Hall
            > Falls Church, Virginia
            >
            >
            >
            >
            >
            > ________________________________
            > From: victor avigdor hurowitz <victor@...>
            > To: ANE-2 <ANE-2@yahoogroups.com>
            > Sent: Wed, December 2, 2009 10:10:00 PM
            > Subject: Re: [ANE-2] Heshbon
            >
            > Dear David,
            > I haven't read Horn's book nor do I know much about this poetic,
            > enigmatic passage and whatever historical background it may or may not
            > have, but your statement about the Biblical verse is
            > totally wrong. Moses and Joshua have nothing to do with anything in this
            > passage, and in any case Heshbon is not destroyed here but is
            > the source of fire and flame and this fire consumes Ar of Moab. So how
            > do you turn the verse on its head?
            > Victor Hurowitz
            > BGU
            >
            >
            >
            > On Wed, 2 Dec 2009, David Hall wrote:
            >
            > > Heshbon in Jordan was reported destroyed with fire by order of Moses and Joshua (Numbers 21:28).
            > >
            > > I was able to find studies in honor of Siegfried H. Horn (The Archaeology of Jordan, 1986), but was needing more specific information about the Iron Age I (1200-1000 B.C.) occupation layers there as there was no LBA occupation found. I wondered if anyone knows of any extant reports about Tel Hisban.
            > >
            > > David Q. Hall
            > > Falls Church, Virginia
            > >
            > >
            > >
            > >
            > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
            > >
            > >
            >
            >
            >
            > ------------------------------------
            >
            > Yahoo! Groups Links
            >
            >
            >
            >
            >
            >
            > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
            >
            >



            ------------------------------------

            Yahoo! Groups Links






            [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
          • Douglas Petrovich
            . . . the excavations at Tell Heshban took the view that the city of Heshbon from the days of king Sihon was not located in the same place as the city of
            Message 5 of 12 , Dec 3, 2009
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              ". . . the excavations at Tell Heshban took the view that the city of Heshbon from the days of king Sihon was not located in the same place as the city of Heshbon from Mesa's time, but nearby it. He suggested that Tell Jalul, a large mound not yet excavated, could be the place of former Heshbon. Middle and Late Bronze pottery has been found at the surface of Tell Jalul."

              Not at all an abnormal phenomenon in the ANE. In the Amuq plain, the Early-Bronze community at Tell Tayinat moved to Tell Achana (Alalakh) for the MB and LB Ages. They seem to have moved back to Tayinat in the early Iron Age, forming the most powerful polity in the plain, which came to be named "Palestin", per Hawkins.

              There is any number of reasons why such a population-shift would take place. Many theorize that shifts in the course of the Orontes are the culprit in the Amuq. I am not sure what is theorized for Heshbon.

              David needs to take a quite a bit more care in coming to the rash conclusions that he does regarding what archaeology tells us about biblical sites. This is not the first time he has sped to faulty claims, but we will not go into problems such as what he does (and others do) with "Ai".

              Doug Petrovich
              Toronto, CA

              [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
            • David Hall
              Thanks for the information about Heshbon.    As far as I know Hazor, Arad, Lachish, and Gibeon have been located by inscriptions.  Jericho was located by
              Message 6 of 12 , Dec 3, 2009
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                Thanks for the information about Heshbon.   

                As far as I know Hazor, Arad, Lachish, and Gibeon have been located by inscriptions.  Jericho was located by its name and description of its location.  Samaria was located through geographical description and the preservation of its name, for the Samaritans exist to this day.

                Arad was identified through an inscription on a potsherd.  Y. Aharoni was confused when he could not correlate the description in Numbers 21 with the inscriptions he had uncovered at Tel Arad, for Arad was populated during the EB and IA periods, but not during either the end of the MBII or end of the LBA era both proposed as possibilities for the conquests described in Exodus, Numbers, and Joshua.

                Shoshenq mentioned Arad the Great, Arad Beit Yeroham.  Aharoni suggested two Arads might be Tel Milh (Malhata) and Tel Masos.  Aharoni wrote Tel Milh with its Hyksos ramparts was destroyed at the end of the MBII.   (The Land of the Bible, Aharoni, 1979).  This was about the time the Hyksos were defeated at Avaris and the Egyptian army advanced into Canaan and laid seige to Sharuhen.  There was widespread destruction at the end of the MBII in Canaan including Jericho and Tel Beit Mirsim.  A third Arad at Tel Arad is difficult to correlate with the two other proposed Arads for it results in too many Arads. 

                In Numbers 21 Israel was credited with destroying the towns of the King of Arad.  There were no LBA settlements in the Beersheba - Arad section of the Negev.  This means the search for Exodus is placed back into the MBII-LBa transition.  Merneptah described Israel in Canaan c. 1205 B.C.  The Amaran letters mentioned rulers of city states, yet none of the Israeli tribal affiliations.

                I Kings 6:1 stated the Exodus occurred 480 years after Solomon's temple foundation was begun (c. 960).  This would place the Exodus in the 15th century during the time of Thutmosis III, the Egyptian pharoah who conqured Canaan and Syria.  

                It is annoying to put the broken pieces together and find they do not align.  Albright looked at the evidence and tried to argue for a 1225 Exodus and Joshua conquest, yet certain sites listed as conquered cities were not occupied during this time, even though they might have qualified as semi-Nomadic way stations where passing flocks of goats browsed and jackals hunted for rodents at night.  Some like Aharoni started trying to move town locations to try to resolve the evidence that troubled him.  This has resulted in a multitude of guesses. 

                David Q. Hall
                Falls Church, Virginia  

                 

                 





                ________________________________
                From: Gene Greenwood <gwoodgeno@...>
                To: ANE-2@yahoogroups.com
                Sent: Thu, December 3, 2009 3:28:44 PM
                Subject: Re: [ANE-2] Heshbon

                 
                From this website: http://www.bga nl/en/articles/ oostjor.html# 11 I gathered the following:

                "Prof. S.H. Horn, who conducted the
                excavations at Tell Heshban took the view that the city of Heshbon from
                the days of king Sihon was not located in the same place as the city of
                Heshbon from Mesa's time, but nearby it. He suggested that Tell Jalul,
                a large mound not yet excavated, could be the place of former Heshbon. Middle and Late Bronze pottery has been found at the surface of Tell Jalul."

                Refs:
                11. S.H. Horn, Heshbon, in: The Interpreter' s Dictionary of the Bible. Supplementary Volume, Nashville 1976, p. 410-411.
                12. R. Ibach, in: L.T. Geraty, Heshbon, Ferrien Springs 1978, p. 215-222.

                Also, (you may correct me on this if I'm wrong) I think the Bible never mentions Heshbon as a city per se. It could refer to a region/valley etc.
                Gene Greenwood. . . .

                Tahoe City, CA

                ____________ _________ _________ __
                From: victor avigdor hurowitz <victor@bgumail. bgu.ac.il>
                To: David Hall <dqhall59@yahoo. com>
                Cc: ANE-2@yahoogroups. com
                Sent: Thu, December 3, 2009 11:29:32 AM
                Subject: Re: [ANE-2] Heshbon

                this convoluted explanation taxes my imagination.
                Victor Hurowitz
                BGU

                On Thu, 3 Dec 2009, David Hall wrote:

                > In Numbers 21 Israel conquers the cities of the Amorites. Heshbon is one of these cities previously ruled by Sihon. Moses and Joshua were ranking officials of the army according to the story of Exodus, Numbers etc. Further along in this epic poem is the event of the destruction of the cities of the Amorites as far as the Arnon. A flame going out from Heshbon seemed to indicate destruction by fire in the context of Israel smashing cities as described in chapter 21. It might have been a signal fire such as were recorded at Lachish and Azeka according to the Lachish letters dating to the time of Sennacherib' s Assyrian conquest. The context of the vanquished Amorites seemed to indicate a succession of burned cities, although this context is difficult to imagine as it is not for sure that Hesban or a series of other Amorite-Edomite cities occupied at the time were smashed in the same generation as described in Numbers.
                >
                > David Q. Hall
                > Falls Church, Virginia
                >
                >
                >
                >
                >
                > ____________ _________ _________ __
                > From: victor avigdor hurowitz <victor@bgumail. bgu.ac.il>
                > To: ANE-2 <ANE-2@yahoogroups. com>
                > Sent: Wed, December 2, 2009 10:10:00 PM
                > Subject: Re: [ANE-2] Heshbon
                >
                > Dear David,
                > I haven't read Horn's book nor do I know much about this poetic,
                > enigmatic passage and whatever historical background it may or may not
                > have, but your statement about the Biblical verse is
                > totally wrong. Moses and Joshua have nothing to do with anything in this
                > passage, and in any case Heshbon is not destroyed here but is
                > the source of fire and flame and this fire consumes Ar of Moab. So how
                > do you turn the verse on its head?
                > Victor Hurowitz
                > BGU
                >
                >
                >
                > On Wed, 2 Dec 2009, David Hall wrote:
                >
                > > Heshbon in Jordan was reported destroyed with fire by order of Moses and Joshua (Numbers 21:28).
                > >
                > > I was able to find studies in honor of Siegfried H. Horn (The Archaeology of Jordan, 1986), but was needing more specific information about the Iron Age I (1200-1000 B.C.) occupation layers there as there was no LBA occupation found. I wondered if anyone knows of any extant reports about Tel Hisban.
                > >
                > > David Q. Hall
                > > Falls Church, Virginia
                > >
                > >
                > >
                > >
                > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                > >
                > >
                >
                >
                >
                > ------------ --------- --------- ------
                >
                > Yahoo! Groups Links
                >
                >
                >
                >
                >
                >
                > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                >
                >

                ------------ --------- --------- ------

                Yahoo! Groups Links

                [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]







                [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
              • Paul Ash
                I find myself somewhat skeptical of the entire name transfer phenomenon that some, particularly conservative, historians/archaeologists adopt, namely because
                Message 7 of 12 , Dec 4, 2009
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                  I find myself somewhat skeptical of the entire "name transfer" phenomenon that some, particularly conservative, historians/archaeologists adopt, namely because it seems to coincide so closely with any site whose excavation results disagree with the Bible. It seems to be a convenient fallback for maintaining one's conviction that the Bible is hisotrically inerrant. It certainly is not good methodology. There is no proof that I recall that Tel Hesban is or is not biblical Heshbon, but at the same time, there is no proof that any other site is biblical Heshbon either. Based on this, there seems to be no good reason to deny that Tel Hesban is biblical Heshbon, from a historical/archaeological perspective, that is.
                  Paul Ash




                  [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                • Edrey, Meir
                  Hello David, you can also check out the official web site for Tell Heshbon: http://www.madabaplains.org/hesban/index.html as part of the Madaba plain project:
                  Message 8 of 12 , Dec 9, 2009
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                    Hello David,

                    you can also check out the official web site for Tell Heshbon:
                    http://www.madabaplains.org/hesban/index.html

                    as part of the Madaba plain project:
                    http://www.madabaplains.org/index.html

                    Meir Edrey
                    Johannes Gutenberg Universität
                    Mainz, Germany

                    ________________________________
                    From: ANE-2@yahoogroups.com [ANE-2@yahoogroups.com] on behalf of David Hall [dqhall59@...]
                    Sent: Friday, December 04, 2009 3:00 AM
                    To: ANE-2@yahoogroups.com
                    Subject: Re: [ANE-2] Heshbon ---> Arad <--- Moses
                  • Gene Greenwood
                    Meir, The Virtual Tour on the website seems to have only one pic. Gene Greenwood Tahoe City, CA ________________________________ From: Edrey, Meir
                    Message 9 of 12 , Dec 10, 2009
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                      Meir,
                      The "Virtual Tour" on the website seems to have only one pic.
                      Gene Greenwood
                      Tahoe City, CA




                      ________________________________
                      From: "Edrey, Meir" <edrey@...-mainz.de>
                      To: "ANE-2@yahoogroups.com" <ANE-2@yahoogroups.com>
                      Sent: Wed, December 9, 2009 7:15:09 PM
                      Subject: RE: [ANE-2] Heshbon ---> Arad <--- Moses

                      Hello David,

                      you can also check out the official web site for Tell Heshbon:
                      http://www.madabaplains.org/hesban/index.html

                      as part of the Madaba plain project:
                      http://www.madabaplains.org/index.html

                      Meir Edrey
                      Johannes Gutenberg Universität
                      Mainz, Germany

                      ________________________________
                      From: ANE-2@yahoogroups.com [ANE-2@yahoogroups.com] on behalf of David Hall [dqhall59@...]
                      Sent: Friday, December 04, 2009 3:00 AM
                      To: ANE-2@yahoogroups.com
                      Subject: Re: [ANE-2] Heshbon ---> Arad <--- Moses




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