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Re: SV: [ANE-2] collapsed conquest theories-ps

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  • Jean-Fabrice Nardelli
    Dear Prof. Lemche, please consider that rudeness is a two-edged sword. For most scholars in our field, your charge that Gitin and Dohan are incompetent
    Message 1 of 12 , Nov 8, 2009
      Dear Prof. Lemche,

      please consider that rudeness is a two-edged sword. For most scholars in our field, your charge that Gitin and Dohan are incompetent archaeologists and guilty of forgery magisterially "sucks" as so many instances of calumny and slander, especially since it has been reiterated in print à la Goebbels with nothing worthy of the name evidence adduced. Consider how those experts on the Punic civilisation who doused with vitriol the honesty of Pierre Cintas in his excavation of the tophet nicknamed 'Chapelle Cintas' are now remembered...

      Seing that you are fond of citing Classical scholarship that students of the ANE justifiably do not read, I could quote at you the dictum of Mommsen's son-in-law, Ulrich von Wilamowitz-Moellendorff, comparing the rash textual conjectures of his predecessors with maggots crawling in the basin of a privy - the moral of the case, at Wilamowitz's expense, being that times and again he himself did not any better than those he had exploded. Now, what about that snippet of Ingram Bywater : "negative criticism has its limits by transgressing which it degenerates into a senseless and unprofitable exercise in logic" ?

      Yours truly,
      J.-F. Nardelli
      Université de Provence

      [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
    • Niels Peter Lemche
      Dear Dr. Nardelli, I approved the mail, although I cannot remember that I have accused Gitin and Dohan (do you mean Dothan, and them Moshe or Trude) for being
      Message 2 of 12 , Nov 8, 2009
        Dear Dr. Nardelli,

        I approved the mail, although I cannot remember that I have accused Gitin and Dohan (do you mean Dothan, and them Moshe or Trude) for being incompetent archaeologists. Just have to know where and when?

        If by Gitin, you are referring to the Ekron inscription and the discussion in BAR 1996, I can only say that I meat Diana Edelman later that day in New Orleans (SBL annual), and was lectured by her. I have never repeated that statement which had its own context. If the second reference points at the Tel Dan inscription, I rest my case on my contribution In Thompson and Jayyusi, Jerusalem in Ancient History and Tradition (T&T Clark, 2003), and Russell Gmirkin's material published in SJOT a few years later. I ended summing up that "I have to admit that the arguments in favour of seeing the Tel Dan fragments as fake need to be much more forceful--certainly stronger than I have been able to show in this survey--if they are to prove beyond doubt that the inscription is the work of a forger. Although arguments can be found (e.g. Garbini's study), they are hardly enough to win over the person--scholar or layperson--who does not want to be convinced." (p. 66)

        So, up to you to clarify!

        Niels Peter Lemche



        -----Oprindelig meddelelse-----
        Fra: ANE-2@yahoogroups.com [mailto:ANE-2@yahoogroups.com] På vegne af Jean-Fabrice Nardelli
        Sendt: 8. november 2009 14:14
        Til: ANE-2@yahoogroups.com
        Emne: Re: SV: [ANE-2] collapsed conquest theories-ps

        Dear Prof. Lemche,

        please consider that rudeness is a two-edged sword. For most scholars in our field, your charge that Gitin and Dohan are incompetent archaeologists and guilty of forgery magisterially "sucks" as so many instances of calumny and slander, especially since it has been reiterated in print à la Goebbels with nothing worthy of the name evidence adduced. Consider how those experts on the Punic civilisation who doused with vitriol the honesty of Pierre Cintas in his excavation of the tophet nicknamed 'Chapelle Cintas' are now remembered...

        Seing that you are fond of citing Classical scholarship that students of the ANE justifiably do not read, I could quote at you the dictum of Mommsen's son-in-law, Ulrich von Wilamowitz-Moellendorff, comparing the rash textual conjectures of his predecessors with maggots crawling in the basin of a privy - the moral of the case, at Wilamowitz's expense, being that times and again he himself did not any better than those he had exploded. Now, what about that snippet of Ingram Bywater : "negative criticism has its limits by transgressing which it degenerates into a senseless and unprofitable exercise in logic" ?

        Yours truly,
        J.-F. Nardelli
        Université de Provence

        [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]



        ------------------------------------

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      • Niels Peter Lemche
        The Gmirkin thing is: Russell Gmirkin, Tool Slippage and the Tel Dan Inscription, SJOT 16 (2002), pp. 293-302. Niels Peter Lemche But please, no more
        Message 3 of 12 , Nov 8, 2009
          The Gmirkin thing is: Russell Gmirkin, "Tool Slippage and the Tel Dan
          Inscription," SJOT 16 (2002), pp. 293-302.

          Niels Peter Lemche

          But please, no more discussions about this inscription. I will stand
          with what I wrote in The Israelites in History and Tradition from 1998,
          and The Old Testament Between Theology and History from 2008.
        • Jean-Fabrice Nardelli
          I have in mind BAR 23:24 (1997), p. 37, and Stager in Mair (ed.), I Will Speak the Riddles of Ancient Times , p. 380 note 15, on top of oral assertions by two
          Message 4 of 12 , Nov 8, 2009
            I have in mind BAR 23:24 (1997), p. 37, and Stager in Mair (ed.), "I Will Speak the Riddles of Ancient Times", p. 380 note 15, on top of oral assertions by two senior, Biblical scholars in Paris.

            My point was simply that nothing is gained by this proliferation of coarseness, which does not befit any scholar worth his reputation. Students are already petty enough, to say nothing about rednecks and church-goers...

            Jean-Fabrice Nardelli

            [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
          • Jim West
            ... Nothing quite like your last sentence to prove just how seriously you take your own counsel. ++++++ Jim West http://jwest.wordpress.com Eure gehorsamen
            Message 5 of 12 , Nov 8, 2009
              Jean-Fabrice Nardelli wrote:

              > My point was simply that nothing is gained by this proliferation of
              > coarseness, which does not befit any scholar worth his reputation.
              > Students are already petty enough, to say nothing about rednecks and
              > church-goers...
              >
              > Jean-Fabrice Nardelli


              Nothing quite like your last sentence to prove just how seriously you
              take your own counsel.


              ++++++

              Jim West
              http://jwest.wordpress.com

              Eure gehorsamen Diener des göttlichen Worts
              und Lehrer der Heiligen Schrift.
            • Niels Peter Lemche
              Thought so, and I explained the circumstances. Besides I did not accuse Gitin of being an incompetent archaeologist. And have no share whatsoever in Dohan. I
              Message 6 of 12 , Nov 8, 2009
                Thought so, and I explained the circumstances. Besides I did not accuse Gitin of being an incompetent archaeologist. And have no share whatsoever in Dohan.

                I hope that you are otherwise a bit more concerned about your references, because in this case you were misrepresenting your opponent.

                My problem with handling Faust in a nice way has to do with this salvo which concludes his Israel's Ethnogenesis (Equinox, 2007), p. 236:

                "...this is not, of course, because the minimalists (most of them at least) have something against the Israelites. What they begrudge is modern Israel. Their political prejudice leads them to distort both history and method."

                Biblical studies is often a nasty place to be in. Classical studies a much more peaceful enterprise, and the number of bible people who has left the field to move to Assyriology is conspicuous: just to get away from the heat.

                I hope that this will be the last I need to say on this occasion.

                Niels Peter Lemche




                -----Oprindelig meddelelse-----
                Fra: ANE-2@yahoogroups.com [mailto:ANE-2@yahoogroups.com] På vegne af Jean-Fabrice Nardelli
                Sendt: 8. november 2009 14:43
                Til: ANE-2@yahoogroups.com
                Emne: Re: SV: [ANE-2] collapsed conquest theories-ps

                I have in mind BAR 23:24 (1997), p. 37, and Stager in Mair (ed.), "I Will Speak the Riddles of Ancient Times", p. 380 note 15, on top of oral assertions by two senior, Biblical scholars in Paris.

                My point was simply that nothing is gained by this proliferation of coarseness, which does not befit any scholar worth his reputation. Students are already petty enough, to say nothing about rednecks and church-goers...

                Jean-Fabrice Nardelli

                [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
              • Jean-Fabrice Nardelli
                Since when rednecks and churchgoers are more than marginally derogative phrases for, respectively, right-wingers (in a social and political sense) and
                Message 7 of 12 , Nov 8, 2009
                  Since when "rednecks" and "churchgoers" are more than marginally derogative phrases for, respectively, "right-wingers" (in a social and political sense) and "devout people", both groups being seen of course through the lens of someone who prides himself on being a rather more progressive person ? I fail to see how my use of these may give the lie to my strictures against the use of unbecoming, ad hominem language in scholarly topics, but please, Dr West, enlighten me on that matter.

                  Jean-Fabrice Nardelli


                  ----- Original Message -----
                  From: Jim West
                  To: ANE-2@yahoogroups.com
                  Sent: Sunday, November 08, 2009 2:57 PM
                  Subject: Re: SV: [ANE-2] collapsed conquest theories-ps





                  Jean-Fabrice Nardelli wrote:

                  > My point was simply that nothing is gained by this proliferation of
                  > coarseness, which does not befit any scholar worth his reputation.
                  > Students are already petty enough, to say nothing about rednecks and
                  > church-goers...
                  >
                  > Jean-Fabrice Nardelli

                  Nothing quite like your last sentence to prove just how seriously you
                  take your own counsel.

                  ++++++

                  Jim West
                  http://jwest.wordpress.com

                  Eure gehorsamen Diener des göttlichen Worts
                  und Lehrer der Heiligen Schrift.





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                  [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                • Jean-Fabrice Nardelli
                  I am very sorry to contradict Prof. Lemche once more, but Classical studies are not much more peaceful than the Biblical ones ; it is just that internal
                  Message 8 of 12 , Nov 8, 2009
                    I am very sorry to contradict Prof. Lemche once more, but Classical studies are not much more peaceful than the Biblical ones ; it is just that internal struggles seldom leak in the press and raise concern outside of the ancient universities. In my original field of expertise, Homeric studies, a great battle is being warred around the langague of the Iliad and the Odyssey, with far-reaching consequences on the dating of Homer, its role in the shaping of Greek poetry, the dialectal geography of archaic Greece, the mechanics of the verse, and what oral poetry was before literacy took off in Greece. Some specialists would like us to recognize how the digamma (wau), far from being nearly extinguished by the eighth century BC in those vernacular dialects in which epic poetry did spread, was actually always spelt and either written by other vowels or taken into account even when it does not play a part in prosody. This means that its rate of decay in the corpus of early epic cannot be deployed as a mean of putting Homer, Hesiod and the Homeric Hymns in their respective place within a general chronology. No less daringly, a few other classicists would have us believe that our way of scanning the dactylic hexameter is wholly misconceived, bevause we put too much stress on the caesura and the patterning of short and long syllables in the verse, and that it distorts our perception of Greek epic as oral/aural litterature. Some of them even put forward a novel definition of the metrical syllable as a way of eliminating such a complicated and ill-understood device as synizesis. If both groups of dissidents ever succeed, we will have to rewrite all handbooks of dialectology, phonetics and morphology, prosody and metre available, and look at the early Greek poets from a radically new viewpoint ; the truth of the matter, however, is that those scholars do not affort enough material to warrant such drastic measures and may be proved to bend the facts in the way that best suits their purpose. However, graduate scholars are already found who have heard of the proponents of such theories (for they are alluring ; just imagine Greek verse free of of much of its difficulties !), so the danger may well be greater than expected.
                    I shall also point out the internal guerilla between the conservative critics, who will not hear of any change made to the text of the (or : some) manuscripts of any author provided that this very text can be assigned to a meaning, even if they have to twist the idiom and do violence to style, and those who consider that textual conservatism is a politer word for Quatsch, being all too often a mask for ignorance. For a crisp précis of the conceptions to which the latter school sticks, see http://bmcr.brynmawr.edu/2009/2009-09-44.html.

                    Jean-Fabrice Nardelli



                    [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                  • intentionme
                    Jean-Fabrice Nardelli wrote My point was simply that nothing is gained by this proliferation of coarseness, which does not befit any scholar worth his
                    Message 9 of 12 , Nov 8, 2009
                      "Jean-Fabrice Nardelli" wrote

                      "My point was simply that nothing is gained by this proliferation of coarseness, which does not befit any scholar worth his reputation. Students are already petty enough, to say nothing about rednecks and church-goers"

                      I surely hope you were trying for a sarcastic laugh with that last statement. I, being a catholic from Missouri, fall into both categories and take objection to your disrespect.

                      Jordan Wilson
                      intentionme@...
                    • Jean-Fabrice Nardelli
                      Dear Prof. Thomson, I am all for debate, but when friendly disagreement becomes a war of words, something which has plagued Classical studies for long (in
                      Message 10 of 12 , Nov 8, 2009
                        Dear Prof. Thomson,

                        I am all for debate, but when friendly disagreement becomes a war of words, something which has plagued Classical studies for long (in Greek we have had a long and very distinguished tradition of tearing fellow scholars apart ; just have a look at the pamphlets traded by Rhode and Wilamowitz around Nietzsche's Geburt der Tragödie, one of them being entitle Afterphilogie, with an anal wordplay), things get out of hand and the best interest of scholarship are no longer served. Issues of tact and cortesy in a printed text are no less important for a Frenchmen than they are to an American.

                        Yours,
                        Jean-Fabrice Nardelli
                      • Jim West
                        ... no. ++++++ Jim West http://jwest.wordpress.com Eure gehorsamen Diener des göttlichen Worts und Lehrer der Heiligen Schrift.
                        Message 11 of 12 , Nov 8, 2009
                          Jean-Fabrice Nardelli wrote:
                          >
                          >
                          > Since when "rednecks" and "churchgoers" are more than marginally
                          > derogative phrases for, respectively, "right-wingers" (in a social and
                          > political sense) and "devout people", both groups being seen of course
                          > through the lens of someone who prides himself on being a rather more
                          > progressive person ? I fail to see how my use of these may give the lie
                          > to my strictures against the use of unbecoming, ad hominem language in
                          > scholarly topics, but please, Dr West, enlighten me on that matter.


                          no.


                          ++++++

                          Jim West
                          http://jwest.wordpress.com

                          Eure gehorsamen Diener des göttlichen Worts
                          und Lehrer der Heiligen Schrift.
                        • MarcC
                          This thread is closed. Marc Cooper for the Moderators
                          Message 12 of 12 , Nov 8, 2009
                            This thread is closed.

                            Marc Cooper
                            for the Moderators
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