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Re: Merneptah's Seeds (was: collapsed conquest theories)

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  • zmbq
    ... I ve been meaning to ask about this for a while. As far as I understand, the literal meaning of the Merneptah reference to Israel is that Israel has no
    Message 1 of 15 , Nov 7, 2009
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      --- In ANE-2@yahoogroups.com, David Hall <dqhall59@...> wrote:
      > Bethel was destroyed about the time Merneptah reported Israsel somewhere in the vicinity of the Jordan River valley.  Merneptah was doing destruction of Canaanite cities about this time.  Israel was a listed as a people destroyed, not as conquerers of Canaan.

      I've been meaning to ask about this for a while. As far as I understand, the literal meaning of the Merneptah reference to Israel is that Israel has no seed left. I can read all sorts of things into that, but I'm not an Egyptian scribe from the 13th century BC.

      In ancient Egyptian, was that a common way of saying a people was destroyed? Or just a way of saying their reserves are all gone (obviously due to Merneptah victory) and they can't plant anything?

      Is that a description of a dead people, or of an agricultural society that needs to renew its seed supply?

      Itay Zandbank
    • David Hall
      There were a few battle descriptions in ancient Egypt about the enemy s seed being destroyed.  Israel was not singled out for this description.  I
      Message 2 of 15 , Nov 7, 2009
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        There were a few battle descriptions in ancient Egypt about the enemy's seed being destroyed.  Israel was not singled out for this description.  I understand Egypt claimed Israel lost the battle.  From what I have read this Egyptian word seed is the word for seed as in grain.  An allegorical interpretation in the context of the stele might infer Israel lost their sons.

        David Q. Hall




        ________________________________
        From: zmbq <itay@...>
        To: ANE-2@yahoogroups.com
        Sent: Sat, November 7, 2009 4:12:00 AM
        Subject: [ANE-2] Re: Merneptah's Seeds (was: collapsed conquest theories)

         


        --- In ANE-2@yahoogroups. com, David Hall <dqhall59@.. .> wrote:
        > Bethel was destroyed about the time Merneptah reported Israsel somewhere in the vicinity of the Jordan River valley.  Merneptah was doing destruction of Canaanite cities about this time.  Israel was a listed as a people destroyed, not as conquerers of Canaan.

        I've been meaning to ask about this for a while. As far as I understand, the literal meaning of the Merneptah reference to Israel is that Israel has no seed left. I can read all sorts of things into that, but I'm not an Egyptian scribe from the 13th century BC.

        In ancient Egyptian, was that a common way of saying a people was destroyed? Or just a way of saying their reserves are all gone (obviously due to Merneptah victory) and they can't plant anything?

        Is that a description of a dead people, or of an agricultural society that needs to renew its seed supply?

        Itay Zandbank







        [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
      • driver40386
        Dear Itay. Certainly, the negative term seed (pr.t) is not is used in a variety of ways, generally meaning much the same. Ramesses III uses this term with
        Message 3 of 15 , Nov 7, 2009
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          Dear Itay.
          Certainly, the negative term "seed (pr.t) is not" is used in a variety of ways, generally meaning much the same.
          Ramesses III uses this term with reference to the "chief of Amor - "his seed is not". Again the defeated Libyans claim, "fire has penetrated us, our seed is not".
          Ramesses again talks about the invaders (in his Asiatic wars), "those who reached my border are desolated, their seed is not". The context of which can hardly refer to the fields (grain) of the enemy.

          One other point which is not often mentioned. The fact that the people determinative is used for Israel does 'not' mean that Israel is a nationless people. At best it will refer to a people who were not within their 'national borders' (using the term loosely) at the time of contact with Merneptah.

          As an example, Ramesses III will refer to the Peleset using the 'land' determinative when he advances into their domain. However, when he is specifically referring to Peleset warriors he uses their name accompanied with the 'bowman' determinative.
          Then again when showing the Peleset as prisoners he uses the 'people' (man & woman + plural) determinative, because he is specifically talking about the people and only the people, not the 'country' nor the 'military'. This is just what Merneptah does on the Victory Stela.

          Therefore, all Merneptah is doing is referring to Israelite people. Contrary to popular opinion we cannot reasonably conclude that Israel is not yet a nation.
          In this I am not at all suggesting Israel had a 'nation' in this period, just that the suggestion that the use of a 'people' determinative 'means' they were not yet settled is erroneous. The use of the 'people' determinative means Merneptah is 'only' referring to the 'people', whether they were nationless or not is a separate issue.

          The correct determinative to use depends on the context of the phrase and in this context Merneptah may only be talking about the people, that the people have been decimated.

          All the best, Jon Smyth
          Toronto, CAN.

          --- In ANE-2@yahoogroups.com, "zmbq" <itay@...> wrote:

          >In ancient Egyptian, was that a common way of saying a people was >destroyed?
        • aren
          NPL, If I may quote you in one of your last posts: Another view is presented by Avraham Faust, but his use of anthropology sucks -- C mon - you can do better
          Message 4 of 15 , Nov 7, 2009
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            NPL,

            If I may quote you in one of your last posts:
            "Another view is presented by Avraham Faust, but his use of anthropology sucks --"

            C'mon - you can do better than that! This is not the way to voice your opinion, especially in a public forum, on another scholar's work - even if you don't agree with him!

            Keep in mind that many don't accept your opinions as well, and you would not want to set a scatological standard for scholarly debates...

            Aren Maeir
          • Niels Peter Lemche
            Dear Aren, Maybe harsh but true. Read our reviews. Niels Peter Lemche ... Fra: ANE-2@yahoogroups.com [mailto:ANE-2@yahoogroups.com] På vegne af aren Sendt: 8.
            Message 5 of 15 , Nov 7, 2009
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              Dear Aren,

              Maybe harsh but true. Read our reviews.

              Niels Peter Lemche



              -----Oprindelig meddelelse-----
              Fra: ANE-2@yahoogroups.com [mailto:ANE-2@yahoogroups.com] På vegne af aren
              Sendt: 8. november 2009 06:53
              Til: ANE-2@yahoogroups.com
              Emne: Re: SV: [ANE-2] collapsed conquest theories

              NPL,

              If I may quote you in one of your last posts:
              "Another view is presented by Avraham Faust, but his use of anthropology sucks --"

              C'mon - you can do better than that! This is not the way to voice your opinion, especially in a public forum, on another scholar's work - even if you don't agree with him!

              Keep in mind that many don't accept your opinions as well, and you would not want to set a scatological standard for scholarly debates...

              Aren Maeir




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            • Niels Peter Lemche
              PS: I should have added that what is really problematic is the way Faust uses anthropology, its discussion about ethnicity, to create an Israeli (I write this
              Message 6 of 15 , Nov 7, 2009
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                PS:

                I should have added that what is really problematic is the way Faust
                uses anthropology, its discussion about ethnicity, to create an Israeli
                (I write this by intention) nationality and push it back into the Iron
                Age.

                And then, if you read his concluding remarks about me and my
                comrades-in-arms, you -- or somebody more neutral -- may say that I was
                right.

                Niels Peter Lemche
              • aren
                NPL, Still, there is an accepted language of discourse that should, in my humble opinion, be adhered to. It is what, in Yiddish, we call Menschlichkeit! Aren
                Message 7 of 15 , Nov 8, 2009
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                  NPL,
                  Still, there is an accepted language of discourse that should, in my humble opinion, be adhered to. It is what, in Yiddish, we call Menschlichkeit!

                  Aren Maeir
                • Niels Peter Lemche
                  OK, it does not sucks, it is just totally unacceptable, as is his language about his opponents, and then I suggest that we spare this forum for more. Another
                  Message 8 of 15 , Nov 8, 2009
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                    OK, it does not sucks, it is just totally unacceptable, as is his language about his opponents, and then I suggest that we spare this forum for more. Another example why we should not discuss biblical matters here -- or topics relating to historicity of biblical events.

                    Niels Peter Lemche

                    PS: Here we once had a journalist who was nominated as Danish champion in stupid questions. He went to court and won his case. After that he was always referred to as the former champion.



                    -----Oprindelig meddelelse-----
                    Fra: ANE-2@yahoogroups.com [mailto:ANE-2@yahoogroups.com] På vegne af aren
                    Sendt: 8. november 2009 13:54
                    Til: ANE-2@yahoogroups.com
                    Emne: Re: SV: SV: [ANE-2] collapsed conquest theories-ps

                    NPL,
                    Still, there is an accepted language of discourse that should, in my humble opinion, be adhered to. It is what, in Yiddish, we call Menschlichkeit!

                    Aren Maeir
                  • Thomas L. Thompson
                    Dear Jean-Fabrice, As I patiently explained to Niels Peter: For many Americans, rudeness is of itself--regardless of cause--reprehensible. Even worse, rudeness
                    Message 9 of 15 , Nov 8, 2009
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                      Dear Jean-Fabrice,
                      As I patiently explained to Niels Peter: For many Americans, rudeness is of itself--regardless of cause--reprehensible. Even worse, rudeness and accuracy for these same Americans is unforgivable! Faust has very politely and without grounds accused Lemche and like-minded scholars of being anti-Semitic. Lemche very rudely dismissed Faust's work as a form of pornography. Do you really wish to object to Niels Peter's outburst for the sake of some thin ideal of scholarly politeness? I will not hesitate to say that I find your letter shameful. Do you really wish to defend the kind of dishonest scholarship such as Faust's which we have accepted these past many decades is acceptable merely on the grounds of its politeness?
                      Thomas

                      P.S. I have been a colleague of Lemche's for 16 years and, at least speak from experience and knowledge. What is your reason for preferring Faust's slander?

                      Thomas L. Thompson
                      Professor emeritus, University of Copenhagen


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                    • Thomas L. Thompson
                      Dear Jean Fabrice Red-necks is ever a title of shame--and indeed very rude. A language nuance. If you are for debate, you might answer my question! The
                      Message 10 of 15 , Nov 8, 2009
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                        Dear Jean Fabrice
                        "Red-necks" is ever a title of shame--and indeed very rude. A language nuance.

                        If you are for debate, you might answer my question! The "debate" has not been friendly since 1974; nor has it been a mere war of words.The war in Palestine and Israel is both current and real.

                        I visited France as a very young student--your description of the cloying politeness of the French escapes all memory.

                        Are we to take it then that you wish to say no more than that you would prefer that this debate were nice? If so, we can ignore you........................................politely, of course.
                        Thomas

                        Thomas L. Thompson
                        Professor emeritus, University of Copenhagen

                        ________________________________

                        Fra: ANE-2@yahoogroups.com på vegne af Jean-Fabrice Nardelli
                        Sendt: sø 08-11-2009 20:27
                        Til: ANE-2@yahoogroups.com
                        Emne: Re: SV: [ANE-2] collapsed conquest theories-ps




                        Dear Prof. Thomson,

                        I am all for debate, but when friendly disagreement becomes a war of words, something which has plagued Classical studies for long (in Greek we have had a long and very distinguished tradition of tearing fellow scholars apart ; just have a look at the pamphlets traded by Rhode and Wilamowitz around Nietzsche's Geburt der Tragödie, one of them being entitle Afterphilogie, with an anal wordplay), things get out of hand and the best interest of scholarship are no longer served. Issues of tact and cortesy in a printed text are no less important for a Frenchmen than they are to an American.

                        Yours,
                        Jean-Fabrice Nardelli






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