Loading ...
Sorry, an error occurred while loading the content.
 

Re: [ANE-2] Re: Philistine Architecture? (was: Philistine areas)

Expand Messages
  • David Hall
    Dear Jon:   If you will remember the Merneptah Stele discovered by British archaeologist Sir William Flinders Petrie during the Victorian era; Merneptah
    Message 1 of 20 , Oct 4, 2009
      Dear Jon:
       
      If you will remember the Merneptah Stele discovered by British archaeologist Sir William Flinders Petrie during the Victorian era; Merneptah claimed to have destroyed Ashkelon.  The fact that there was a destruction layer and then Philistine pottery found above a floor on top of the destruction layer at Ashkelon does not mean the Philistines destroyed the place, but that their pottery was found above the destruction layer.  There are archaeologists capable of distinguishing early Philistine ware and there are numerous pieces in museum collections labeled as Philistine ware.  This may seem problematic for people's theories differ and one can seldom find complete agreement amongst scholars. 
       
      At Medinet Habu there were records of other peoples who had moved down from the north to attack Egypt along with the Peleset/Pelishtu/Philistines during the time of Ramesses III.  Some of this coalition was thought to have been from Asia Minor, not the Greek isles.  This was stated by the Geman Egyptologist Adolf Erman in the late 19th century Victorian era publication of his book, Life in Ancient Egypt (public domain).  One may conclude that an attempted invasion of Egypt by men in ships does not constitute valid evidence for an invasion by Sea Peoples, but some people merely like to argue.  Trude Dothan has published much about the material culture of the Sea Peoples including pottery analysis of pottery forms from Israel, Crete, Cyprus, Aegean sites etc.  I would recommend her research publication as she was trained in pottery identification and produced evidence for her theories.  Others have published recent findings expanding
      her earlier theory. These studies might be difficult to obtain, yet they exist.
       
      David Q. Hall   
       
       
      Before the Victorian era began Isaac Newton had measured the acceleration of gravity.  During the Victorian era SIr William Flinders Petrie was defining archaeological stratigraphis analysis and classes of pottery chronological dating techniques. 
       
    • Niels Peter Lemche
      AS you may have perceived, this subject is another can of worms. There has recently been a rather intensive debate about the issue of Philistine identity, and
      Message 2 of 20 , Oct 4, 2009
        AS you may have perceived, this subject is another can of worms. There
        has recently been a rather intensive debate about the issue of
        Philistine identity, and the origins of the pottery referred to as
        "Philistine." Although I handled her part about Canaanites quite
        roughly, I had not the same problem with her discussion of Philistine
        identity: see Ann Killebrew: Biblical Peoples and Ethnicity: An
        Archaeological Study of Egyptians, Canaanites, Philistines, and Early
        Israel (CA. 1300-1100 B.C.E.), SBL 2006.

        Niels Peter Lemche
      • driver40386
        Hello David. Thankyou, yes very absorbing reading. Taking one publication specifically, The Philistines and their Material Culture, 1982. What is noticable is
        Message 3 of 20 , Oct 5, 2009
          Hello David.
          Thankyou, yes very absorbing reading.
          Taking one publication specifically, The Philistines and their Material Culture, 1982. What is noticable is that much emphasis was made, and is still made, on the suggestion that 'Philistine Wares' consisting of the Krater, Stirrup Jar, Pyxis, Strainer Spout, and a few others, show distinct Mycenaean inspiration.
          Grist for the mill when hypothesizing a direct Aegean origin for those illusive invaders.

          However, Ruth Amiran in her Ancient Pottery of the Holy Land, 1970, had already pointed out that the Krater, Stirrup Jar, Pyxis & Strainer Spout Jug were not newely arrived 12th century forms but had actually been well known and used in the Levant in Late Bronze IIA & IIB.

          So although we can readily accept a degree of Mycenaean inspiration, such inspiration was not newely arrived but had actually preceded the 12th century by several hundred years.
          Mycenaean styles unearthed in the Levant do not support the Sea Peoples hypothesis, the styles were already there..

          All the best, Jon smyth
          Toronto, CAN.

          --- In ANE-2@yahoogroups.com, David Hall <dqhall59@...> wrote:
          >
          >Trude Dothan has published much about the material culture of
          >the Sea Peoples including pottery analysis of pottery forms from
          >Israel, Crete, Cyprus, Aegean sites etc.  I would recommend
          >her research publication as she was trained in pottery
          >identification and produced evidence for her theories.
        • David Hall
          There are also elements of EB oil lamps that are similar to IA oil lamps in as much as there is a basic saucer form in each.  I would suggest more advanced
          Message 4 of 20 , Oct 6, 2009
            There are also elements of EB oil lamps that are similar to IA oil lamps in as much as there is a basic saucer form in each.  I would suggest more advanced ceramic studies.
             
            David Q. Hall

            --- On Mon, 10/5/09, driver40386 <driver40386@...> wrote:


            From: driver40386 <driver40386@...>
            Subject: [ANE-2] Re: Philistine Architecture? (was: Philistine areas)
            To: ANE-2@yahoogroups.com
            Date: Monday, October 5, 2009, 8:59 PM


             





            Hello David.
            Thankyou, yes very absorbing reading.
            Taking one publication specifically, The Philistines and their Material Culture, 1982. What is noticable is that much emphasis was made, and is still made, on the suggestion that 'Philistine Wares' consisting of the Krater, Stirrup Jar, Pyxis, Strainer Spout, and a few others, show distinct Mycenaean inspiration.
            Grist for the mill when hypothesizing a direct Aegean origin for those illusive invaders.

            However, Ruth Amiran in her Ancient Pottery of the Holy Land, 1970, had already pointed out that the Krater, Stirrup Jar, Pyxis & Strainer Spout Jug were not newely arrived 12th century forms but had actually been well known and used in the Levant in Late Bronze IIA & IIB.

            So although we can readily accept a degree of Mycenaean inspiration, such inspiration was not newely arrived but had actually preceded the 12th century by several hundred years.
            Mycenaean styles unearthed in the Levant do not support the Sea Peoples hypothesis, the styles were already there..

            All the best, Jon smyth
            Toronto, CAN.

            --- In ANE-2@yahoogroups. com, David Hall <dqhall59@.. .> wrote:
            >
            >Trude Dothan has published much about the material culture of
            >the Sea Peoples including pottery analysis of pottery forms from
            >Israel, Crete, Cyprus, Aegean sites etc.  I would recommend
            >her research publication as she was trained in pottery
            >identification and produced evidence for her theories.



















            [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
          • driver40386
            I was particularly drawn to Ann Killebrew s Synthesis (pp.230-231) where she expands on the Fourth Theory (of Philistine Origins). After describing the First
            Message 5 of 20 , Oct 6, 2009
              I was particularly drawn to Ann Killebrew's Synthesis (pp.230-231) where she expands on the 'Fourth Theory' (of Philistine Origins).
              After describing the First three predominant theories, [1] From Illyria via the Balkans, [2] the Western Aegean region (most popular), & [3] East Aegean including Western Anatolia. Killebrew shows preference for the theory first espoused by Wainwright that the Philistines may have originated from southeast Anatolia (especially Cilicia) and/or Cyprus in the eastern Mediterranean.
              Killebrew writes: ..." I propose a variation on this theory and contend that Cyprus and possibly the surrounding regions are most likely the original point of departure of the Philistines".

              As may be deduced from the above Killebrew does not support the 'sudden invasion' hypothesis. Rather she sees the well defined Mycenaean influences as a product of gradual diffusion over the centuries.
              Quote:
              "The biblical Philistines can best be defined as the descendents and inheritors of the highly sophisticated and cosmopolitan culture of the Late Bronze Age Aegean world. Rather than a diffusion of Aegean-style culture over a large geographical region, as proposed by simplistic hyperdiffusionist theories of invading conquerors or refugees, the spread of this culture is more likely the result of gradual stimulus diffusion that occurred over the course of more than a century of interaction between west and east." (p.234).

              Killebrew's analysis of 'Philistine' wares leads her to conclude the Low Chronology espoused by Finkelstein provides a more reasonable parallel with Mycenaean IIIC Middle at other sites in the eastern Mediterranean. That 'Philistine' bichrome should be dated to the 11th century BCE and the first appearance of monochrome wares do not preceed circa 1140 BCE.

              Interestingly Killebrew does not tackle the "very, very problematic issue" of the perceived hiatus observed at many sites between the destruction levels and the first appearances of Mycenaean IIIC:1b.

              Source: Biblical Peoples and Ethnicity, Killebrew, 2006.

              All the best, Jon Smyth
              Toronto, CAN


              --- In ANE-2@yahoogroups.com, "Niels Peter Lemche" <npl@...> wrote:
              >
              > AS you may have perceived, this subject is another can of worms. There
              > has recently been a rather intensive debate about the issue of
              > Philistine identity, and the origins of the pottery referred to as
              > "Philistine." Although I handled her part about Canaanites quite
              > roughly, I had not the same problem with her discussion of Philistine
              > identity: see Ann Killebrew: Biblical Peoples and Ethnicity: An
              > Archaeological Study of Egyptians, Canaanites, Philistines, and Early
              > Israel (CA. 1300-1100 B.C.E.), SBL 2006.
              >
              > Niels Peter Lemche
              >
            • aren
              Without getting into a debate in this forum, since it would appear rather circular, it should be noted by listers that ALL of those working on the early
              Message 6 of 20 , Oct 7, 2009
                Without getting into a debate in this forum, since it would appear rather circular, it should be noted by listers that ALL of those working on the early Philistine remains in Philistia, having a close, up-to-date and broad knowledge of the wide variety of finds typical of the early Philistine levels at the various Philistine sites (e.g., Ekron, Ashdod, Gath and Ashkelon) strongly believe that a major (but not sole) component of the early Philistine culture is in fact non-local and most likely derives from, inter alia, the Aegean, Anatolia and/or Cyprus. This does mean that there are not local elements in this culture, but rather, in the initial stage, foreign elements are very dominant. Also, it should be stressed that the character of the Aegean connections with the Levant in the LB are COMPLETELY different from that seen in the early Iron Age Philistine sites. This does not only include pottery and architecture, but is seen in cult, diet (as seen thru botanical and zoological remains), cooking methods, etc.

                Just writing this so that those who are not intimately familiar with the relevant discussions won't think that the other view, repeatedly espoused on the list recently, is the accepted view. :-)

                Aren Maeir
                gath.wordpress.com
              Your message has been successfully submitted and would be delivered to recipients shortly.