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[ANE-2] Persia, Egypt, Babylon

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  • Clark Whelton
    Subject: Re: [ANE-2] Persia, Egypt, Babylon ... Whelton s question not been thoroughly answered by those who have responded to it? What s wrong with this
    Message 1 of 9 , Aug 4, 2009
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      Subject: Re: [ANE-2] Persia, Egypt, Babylon

      >>>>>>>>>This thread has been going on for several days now. In what way
      >>>>>>>>>has Mr.
      Whelton's question not been thoroughly answered by those who have responded
      to it? "What's wrong with this picture?" Mr. Whelton still insists on
      asking. So I
      think it's time for Mr. Whelton to tell us, finally, what his own opinions
      are on this topic.
      David Lorton




      David Lorton sees nothing wrong with a picture of 1st millennium BCE
      Mesopotamia in which material evidence for the Medes and Chaldeans -- two of
      the most celebrated nations in Greek historiography -- is totally missing.
      He sees nothing wrong with a picture of the empire Persians in which Darius
      leaves behind "abundant and varied" (Briant) evidence of his rule in Egypt,
      while in Babylon -- a city where Darius held court and which served as a de
      facto capital of the Persian Empire -- there is a "painful" (Briant) absence
      of such evidence. Apparently no one on ANE sees anything wrong with the
      picture of Darius the lawgiver reforming legal codes in Egypt, but not in
      Babylon. No one sees a problem with Darius leaving inscriptions in
      Babylonian at Behistun, but not in Babylonia.

      I don't claim to know the answers. This is a complex puzzle and I've
      changed my views on the subject several times. If I had to bet, I'd say the
      problem stems from an inflated chronology that gave rise to dark ages,
      intermediate periods and ad hoc explanations for missing evidence. Whatever
      the cause, the Medes and Chaldeans cling to a fragile existence as literary
      creations. If not for Greek and Biblical texts, big chunks of the 1st
      millennium -- including much of the Achaemenid Empire -- would have been
      engulfed by dark ages.




      Clark Whelton
      New York
    • David Hall
      Message 2 of 9 , Aug 5, 2009
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        <while in Babylon -- a city where Darius held court and which served as a de
        <facto capital of the Persian Empire -- there is a "painful" (Briant) absence
        <of such evidence. Apparently no one on ANE sees anything wrong with the
        <picture of Darius the lawgiver reforming legal codes in Egypt, but not in
        <Babylon. No one sees a problem with Darius leaving inscriptions in
        <Babylonian at Behistun, but not in Babylonia.

        The Cyrus II cylinder was found in Babylon.  It is in the collection of the British Museum.  This clay cylinder was written in Old Persian.
        The cylinder is a record of the conquest of Babylon in 539 and the Persian king's policy of sending people who were taken captive from their homelands by the Babylonians back to their homelands.

        The cylinder was found in 1879 in the ruins of the city of Babylon by Hormuzd Rassam, a Mesopotamian Christian, who had been trained by Henry Austen Layard while working for the British Museum during the excavation of Nineveh. 

        The evidence for the Persian occupation of Babylon was found in an obscure place by doing a two minute google search.  One should remember not to overlook the obvious.    

        David Q. Hall 


        ________________________________
        From: Clark Whelton <cwhelton@...>
        To: ANE-2@yahoogroups.com
        Sent: Wednesday, August 5, 2009 1:26:02 AM
        Subject: [ANE-2] Persia, Egypt, Babylon

         
        Subject: Re: [ANE-2] Persia, Egypt, Babylon

        >>>>>>>>>This thread has been going on for several days now. In what way
        >>>>>>>>>has Mr.
        Whelton's question not been thoroughly answered by those who have responded
        to it? "What's wrong with this picture?" Mr. Whelton still insists on
        asking. So I
        think it's time for Mr. Whelton to tell us, finally, what his own opinions
        are on this topic.
        David Lorton

        David Lorton sees nothing wrong with a picture of 1st millennium BCE
        Mesopotamia in which material evidence for the Medes and Chaldeans -- two of
        the most celebrated nations in Greek historiography -- is totally missing.
        He sees nothing wrong with a picture of the empire Persians in which Darius
        leaves behind "abundant and varied" (Briant) evidence of his rule in Egypt,
        while in Babylon -- a city where Darius held court and which served as a de
        facto capital of the Persian Empire -- there is a "painful" (Briant) absence
        of such evidence. Apparently no one on ANE sees anything wrong with the
        picture of Darius the lawgiver reforming legal codes in Egypt, but not in
        Babylon. No one sees a problem with Darius leaving inscriptions in
        Babylonian at Behistun, but not in Babylonia.

        I don't claim to know the answers. This is a complex puzzle and I've
        changed my views on the subject several times. If I had to bet, I'd say the
        problem stems from an inflated chronology that gave rise to dark ages,
        intermediate periods and ad hoc explanations for missing evidence. Whatever
        the cause, the Medes and Chaldeans cling to a fragile existence as literary
        creations. If not for Greek and Biblical texts, big chunks of the 1st
        millennium -- including much of the Achaemenid Empire -- would have been
        engulfed by dark ages.

        Clark Whelton
        New York
      • Peter T. Daniels
        The Cyrus Cylinder is not in Old Persian. Old Persian was never written on clay.    (One exception has turned up among the tens of thousands of Persepolis
        Message 3 of 9 , Aug 5, 2009
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          The Cyrus Cylinder is not in Old Persian. Old Persian was never written on clay. 
           
          (One exception has turned up among the tens of thousands of Persepolis Fortification Tablets.) 

          The first treatment of the (Babylonian) text of the Cyrus Cylinder was published by H. C. Rawlinson in JRAS n.s. 12 (1880): 70-97.
          --
          Peter T. Daniels grammatim@...


          >
          >From: David Hall <dqhall59@...>
          >To: ANE-2@yahoogroups.com
          >Sent: Wednesday, August 5, 2009 8:41:06 AM
          >Subject: Re: [ANE-2] Persia, Egypt, Babylon
          >

          ><while in Babylon -- a city where Darius held court and which served as a de
          ><facto capital of the Persian Empire -- there is a "painful" (Briant) absence
          ><of such evidence. Apparently no one on ANE sees anything wrong with the
          ><picture of Darius the lawgiver reforming legal codes in Egypt, but not in
          ><Babylon. No one sees a problem with Darius leaving inscriptions in
          ><Babylonian at Behistun, but not in Babylonia.
          >
          >The Cyrus II cylinder was found in Babylon.  It is in the collection of the British Museum.  This clay cylinder was written in Old Persian.
          >The cylinder is a record of the conquest of Babylon in 539 and the Persian king's policy of sending people who were taken captive from their homelands by the Babylonians back to their homelands.
          >
          >The cylinder was found in 1879 in the ruins of the city of Babylon by Hormuzd Rassam, a Mesopotamian Christian, who had been trained by Henry Austen Layard while working for the British Museum during the excavation of Nineveh. 
          >
          >The evidence for the Persian occupation of Babylon was found in an obscure place by doing a two minute google search.  One should remember not to overlook the obvious.    
          >
          >David Q. Hall 
        • Björn Lindborg
          ... Previously, Liz Fried wrote:
          Message 4 of 9 , Aug 5, 2009
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            --- In ANE-2@yahoogroups.com, "Clark Whelton" <cwhelton@...> wrote:

            > I don't claim to know the answers. This is a complex puzzle and
            > I've changed my views on the subject several times. If I had to
            > bet, I'd say the problem stems from an inflated chronology that
            > gave rise to dark ages, intermediate periods and ad hoc explanations
            > for missing evidence. Whatever the cause, the Medes and Chaldeans
            > cling to a fragile existence as literary creations. If not for
            > Greek and Biblical texts, big chunks of the 1st millennium --
            > including much of the Achaemenid Empire -- would have been engulfed
            > by dark ages.

            > Clark Whelton
            > New York


            Previously, Liz Fried wrote:
            << Let's be clear on what a stratum is, first of all, and how they
            are detected in the archaeological record.

            A stratum is first of all a DESTRUCTION LAYER. Archaeologists dig
            through debris until they get to a floor. The debris between one
            floor and the next is a stratum. When a town is destroyed, and people
            go back and rebuild it on top of the previous city, they level the
            debris, and build a new city on top of the old. That accounts for the
            tells. >>


            I believe that Liz Fried's description of what a stratum is and how
            they are detected in the archaeological record is an important part
            of the "complex puzzle".

            The Neo-Assyrian empire also left very few if any 'destruction
            layers' inside the Assyrian heartland until the last years of
            invasion and destruction. In their book 'The Bible Unearthed',
            Finkelstein and Silberman devote a whole chapter (Appendix) to
            explain why the long reign of Manasse is very poorly attested in
            the archaeological record of Palestine: it was a time of peace with
            Assyria, and there were no 'smoking ruins' producing destruction
            layers to help future archaeologists.

            The problem with solutions by removing alleged 'Dark Ages' in certain
            cultures is that those time periods are almost always attested in
            other parts of the world, so these reduced chronologies will destroy
            established synchronisms. Attempts to shorten the 'Dark Ages' of
            Greece and Anatolia disregard the fact that life went on with
            'business as usual' in the Hallstatt culture of central Europe, with
            continued trade with Iron Age Italy. You can't just remove those
            years that appear (almost) empty for the moment, because even those
            blank pages are likely to be written on, sooner or later. E.g., there
            was a Congress in Lisbon in 2006, "A New Dawn for the Dark Age?",
            devoted to a detailed study of the Iron Age chronology of
            Mediterranean 'Dark Age' cultures (BAR International Series 1871,
            2008).


            Björn Lindborg
          • Ariel L. Szczupak
            ... Ariel. [100% bona fide dilettante ... delecto ergo sum!] ... Ariel L. Szczupak AMIS-JLM (Ricercar Ltd.) POB 4707, Jerusalem, Israel 91406 Phone:
            Message 5 of 9 , Aug 5, 2009
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              At 08:26 AM 8/5/2009, Clark Whelton wrote:
              >[...] If I had to bet, I'd say the problem stems from an inflated
              >chronology that gave rise to dark ages, intermediate periods and ad
              >hoc explanations for missing evidence. [...]

              Sounds familiar. Let's see ... here:

              >At 09:30 AM 2/27/2006, Ariel L. Szczupak wrote:
              >At 19:25 26/02/2006, Clark Whelton wrote:
              >[...]
              >Please not Heinsohn again :(

              :(


              Ariel.

              [100% bona fide dilettante ... delecto ergo sum!]

              ---
              Ariel L. Szczupak
              AMIS-JLM (Ricercar Ltd.)
              POB 4707, Jerusalem, Israel 91406
              Phone: +972-2-5619660 Fax: +972-2-5634203
              ane.als@...
              ---
              http://yvetteszczupakthomas.blogspot.com/
              http://undiamantbrut.blogspot.com/
            • David Hall
              I have not accomplished much in Persian period research, thus I incorrectly described this cylinder after I read a few web pages about it this morning. 
              Message 6 of 9 , Aug 5, 2009
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                I have not accomplished much in Persian period research, thus I incorrectly described this cylinder after I read a few web pages about it this morning.  Thanks for correcting me.  I have read Layard's writtings and one rare book published by Rassam.  Layard was a self-educated archaeologist and author who later won a seat in the British parliament.   

                David Q. Hall




                ________________________________
                From: Peter T. Daniels <grammatim@...>
                To: ANE-2@yahoogroups.com
                Sent: Wednesday, August 5, 2009 11:19:10 AM
                Subject: Re: [ANE-2] Persia, Egypt, Babylon

                 
                The Cyrus Cylinder is not in Old Persian. Old Persian was never written on clay. 
                 
                (One exception has turned up among the tens of thousands of Persepolis Fortification Tablets.) 

                The first treatment of the (Babylonian) text of the Cyrus Cylinder was published by H. C. Rawlinson in JRAS n.s. 12 (1880): 70-97.
                --
                Peter T. Daniels grammatim@verizon. net

                >
                >From: David Hall <dqhall59@yahoo. com>
                >To: ANE-2@yahoogroups. com
                >Sent: Wednesday, August 5, 2009 8:41:06 AM
                >Subject: Re: [ANE-2] Persia, Egypt, Babylon
                >

                ><while in Babylon -- a city where Darius held court and which served as a de
                ><facto capital of the Persian Empire -- there is a "painful" (Briant) absence
                ><of such evidence. Apparently no one on ANE sees anything wrong with the
                ><picture of Darius the lawgiver reforming legal codes in Egypt, but not in
                ><Babylon. No one sees a problem with Darius leaving inscriptions in
                ><Babylonian at Behistun, but not in Babylonia.
                >
                >The Cyrus II cylinder was found in Babylon.  It is in the collection of the British Museum.  This clay cylinder was written in Old Persian.
                >The cylinder is a record of the conquest of Babylon in 539 and the Persian king's policy of sending people who were taken captive from their homelands by the Babylonians back to their homelands.
                >
                >The cylinder was found in 1879 in the ruins of the city of Babylon by Hormuzd Rassam, a Mesopotamian Christian, who had been trained by Henry Austen Layard while working for the British Museum during the excavation of Nineveh. 
                >
                >The evidence for the Persian occupation of Babylon was found in an obscure place by doing a two minute google search.  One should remember not to overlook the obvious.    
                >
                >David Q. Hall 






                [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
              • David Lorton
                And, if I may be allowed to add: Please not Velikovsky again! David Lorton Baltimore, MD
                Message 7 of 9 , Aug 5, 2009
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                  And, if I may be allowed to add: Please not Velikovsky again!

                  David Lorton
                  Baltimore, MD

                  -----Original Message-----
                  >From: "Ariel L. Szczupak" <ane.als@...>
                  >Sent: Aug 5, 2009 2:34 PM
                  >To: ANE-2@yahoogroups.com
                  >Subject: Re: [ANE-2] Persia, Egypt, Babylon
                  >
                  >At 08:26 AM 8/5/2009, Clark Whelton wrote:
                  >>[...] If I had to bet, I'd say the problem stems from an inflated
                  >>chronology that gave rise to dark ages, intermediate periods and ad
                  >>hoc explanations for missing evidence. [...]
                  >
                  >Sounds familiar. Let's see ... here:
                  >
                  >>At 09:30 AM 2/27/2006, Ariel L. Szczupak wrote:
                  >>At 19:25 26/02/2006, Clark Whelton wrote:
                  >>[...]
                  >>Please not Heinsohn again :(
                  >
                  >:(
                  >
                  >
                  >Ariel.
                  >
                  >[100% bona fide dilettante ... delecto ergo sum!]
                  >
                  >---
                  >Ariel L. Szczupak
                  >AMIS-JLM (Ricercar Ltd.)
                  >POB 4707, Jerusalem, Israel 91406
                  >Phone: +972-2-5619660 Fax: +972-2-5634203
                  >ane.als@...
                  >---
                  >http://yvetteszczupakthomas.blogspot.com/
                  >http://undiamantbrut.blogspot.com/
                  >
                  >
                  >
                  >------------------------------------
                  >
                  >Yahoo! Groups Links
                  >
                  >
                  >
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