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Re: [ANE-2] Persia, Egypt, Babylon

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  • Clark Whelton
    ... Briant calls the sources on Darius s rule in Egypt abundant and varied. Statues. Rebuilt temples. Inscriptions. Votive and commemorative stelae. In
    Message 1 of 9 , Aug 2, 2009
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      Liz Fried wrote:
      >>>>>>>>>>...Take Egypt for example. Where are the Persian period temples or
      >>>>>>>>>>artifacts? Well, we have an occasional statue of Darius, but not
      >>>>>>>>>>much.



      David Lorton wrote:
      >>>>>> Let's not forget the temple of Hibis. Throughout the temple, we see
      >>>>>> Darius, dressed as an Egyptian pharaoh and identified by name in his
      >>>>>> cartouches.



      Briant calls the sources on Darius's rule in Egypt "abundant and varied."
      Statues. Rebuilt temples. Inscriptions. Votive and commemorative stelae.
      In the following chapter, Briant calls the history of Babylonia under Darius
      "rather poorly known." Tablets provide glimpses of Persian Babylon, but
      despite the frequent presence of the Achaemenid court, materials
      are "painfully lacking."




      David Lorton wrote:
      >>>>>>> Mr. Whelton raises this question of the lack of Persian strata in
      >>>>>>> Mesopotamia every year or so. It's always thoroughly answered . . .



      Not yet it isn't. Here's how Amelie Kuhrt ("The Ancient Near East," 1995)
      summarized the evidence: “Our main, often sole, guide to [Achaemenid]
      events is, therefore, Greek historiography and the Old Testament. But these
      sources give us a very partial insight because of their generally
      circumscribed
      perspectives: the history of Greek-Persian relations in the Aegean and
      western
      Asia Minor predominates; we can piece together a little on Persian policy in
      the
      Levant and Egypt, the rest is a virtual blank.“




      Clark Whelton
      New York
    • David Lorton
      This thread has been going on for several days now. In what way has Mr. Whelton s question not been thoroughly answered by those who have responded to it?
      Message 2 of 9 , Aug 3, 2009
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        This thread has been going on for several days now. In what way has Mr. Whelton's question not been thoroughly answered by those who have responded to it?

        "What's wrong with this picture?" Mr. Whelton still insists on asking. So I think it's time for Mr. Whelton to tell us, finally, what his own opinions are on this topic.

        David Lorton
        Baltimore, MD

        -----Original Message-----
        >From: Clark Whelton <cwhelton@...>
        >Sent: Aug 3, 2009 2:53 AM
        >To: ANE-2@yahoogroups.com
        >Subject: Re: [ANE-2] Persia, Egypt, Babylon
        >
        >David Lorton wrote:
        >>>>>>>> Mr. Whelton raises this question of the lack of Persian strata in
        >>>>>>>> Mesopotamia every year or so. It's always thoroughly answered . . .
        >
        >
        >
        >Not yet it isn't. Here's how Amelie Kuhrt ("The Ancient Near East," 1995)
        >summarized the evidence: “Our main, often sole, guide to [Achaemenid]
        >events is, therefore, Greek historiography and the Old Testament. But these
        >sources give us a very partial insight because of their generally
        >circumscribed
        >perspectives: the history of Greek-Persian relations in the Aegean and
        >western
        >Asia Minor predominates; we can piece together a little on Persian policy in
        >the
        >Levant and Egypt, the rest is a virtual blank.“
        >
        >
        >
        >
        >Clark Whelton
        >New York
        >
        >
        >
        >
        >------------------------------------
        >
        >Yahoo! Groups Links
        >
        >
        >
      • Clark Whelton
        Subject: Re: [ANE-2] Persia, Egypt, Babylon ... Whelton s question not been thoroughly answered by those who have responded to it? What s wrong with this
        Message 3 of 9 , Aug 4, 2009
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          Subject: Re: [ANE-2] Persia, Egypt, Babylon

          >>>>>>>>>This thread has been going on for several days now. In what way
          >>>>>>>>>has Mr.
          Whelton's question not been thoroughly answered by those who have responded
          to it? "What's wrong with this picture?" Mr. Whelton still insists on
          asking. So I
          think it's time for Mr. Whelton to tell us, finally, what his own opinions
          are on this topic.
          David Lorton




          David Lorton sees nothing wrong with a picture of 1st millennium BCE
          Mesopotamia in which material evidence for the Medes and Chaldeans -- two of
          the most celebrated nations in Greek historiography -- is totally missing.
          He sees nothing wrong with a picture of the empire Persians in which Darius
          leaves behind "abundant and varied" (Briant) evidence of his rule in Egypt,
          while in Babylon -- a city where Darius held court and which served as a de
          facto capital of the Persian Empire -- there is a "painful" (Briant) absence
          of such evidence. Apparently no one on ANE sees anything wrong with the
          picture of Darius the lawgiver reforming legal codes in Egypt, but not in
          Babylon. No one sees a problem with Darius leaving inscriptions in
          Babylonian at Behistun, but not in Babylonia.

          I don't claim to know the answers. This is a complex puzzle and I've
          changed my views on the subject several times. If I had to bet, I'd say the
          problem stems from an inflated chronology that gave rise to dark ages,
          intermediate periods and ad hoc explanations for missing evidence. Whatever
          the cause, the Medes and Chaldeans cling to a fragile existence as literary
          creations. If not for Greek and Biblical texts, big chunks of the 1st
          millennium -- including much of the Achaemenid Empire -- would have been
          engulfed by dark ages.




          Clark Whelton
          New York
        • David Hall
          Message 4 of 9 , Aug 5, 2009
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            <while in Babylon -- a city where Darius held court and which served as a de
            <facto capital of the Persian Empire -- there is a "painful" (Briant) absence
            <of such evidence. Apparently no one on ANE sees anything wrong with the
            <picture of Darius the lawgiver reforming legal codes in Egypt, but not in
            <Babylon. No one sees a problem with Darius leaving inscriptions in
            <Babylonian at Behistun, but not in Babylonia.

            The Cyrus II cylinder was found in Babylon.  It is in the collection of the British Museum.  This clay cylinder was written in Old Persian.
            The cylinder is a record of the conquest of Babylon in 539 and the Persian king's policy of sending people who were taken captive from their homelands by the Babylonians back to their homelands.

            The cylinder was found in 1879 in the ruins of the city of Babylon by Hormuzd Rassam, a Mesopotamian Christian, who had been trained by Henry Austen Layard while working for the British Museum during the excavation of Nineveh. 

            The evidence for the Persian occupation of Babylon was found in an obscure place by doing a two minute google search.  One should remember not to overlook the obvious.    

            David Q. Hall 


            ________________________________
            From: Clark Whelton <cwhelton@...>
            To: ANE-2@yahoogroups.com
            Sent: Wednesday, August 5, 2009 1:26:02 AM
            Subject: [ANE-2] Persia, Egypt, Babylon

             
            Subject: Re: [ANE-2] Persia, Egypt, Babylon

            >>>>>>>>>This thread has been going on for several days now. In what way
            >>>>>>>>>has Mr.
            Whelton's question not been thoroughly answered by those who have responded
            to it? "What's wrong with this picture?" Mr. Whelton still insists on
            asking. So I
            think it's time for Mr. Whelton to tell us, finally, what his own opinions
            are on this topic.
            David Lorton

            David Lorton sees nothing wrong with a picture of 1st millennium BCE
            Mesopotamia in which material evidence for the Medes and Chaldeans -- two of
            the most celebrated nations in Greek historiography -- is totally missing.
            He sees nothing wrong with a picture of the empire Persians in which Darius
            leaves behind "abundant and varied" (Briant) evidence of his rule in Egypt,
            while in Babylon -- a city where Darius held court and which served as a de
            facto capital of the Persian Empire -- there is a "painful" (Briant) absence
            of such evidence. Apparently no one on ANE sees anything wrong with the
            picture of Darius the lawgiver reforming legal codes in Egypt, but not in
            Babylon. No one sees a problem with Darius leaving inscriptions in
            Babylonian at Behistun, but not in Babylonia.

            I don't claim to know the answers. This is a complex puzzle and I've
            changed my views on the subject several times. If I had to bet, I'd say the
            problem stems from an inflated chronology that gave rise to dark ages,
            intermediate periods and ad hoc explanations for missing evidence. Whatever
            the cause, the Medes and Chaldeans cling to a fragile existence as literary
            creations. If not for Greek and Biblical texts, big chunks of the 1st
            millennium -- including much of the Achaemenid Empire -- would have been
            engulfed by dark ages.

            Clark Whelton
            New York
          • Peter T. Daniels
            The Cyrus Cylinder is not in Old Persian. Old Persian was never written on clay.    (One exception has turned up among the tens of thousands of Persepolis
            Message 5 of 9 , Aug 5, 2009
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              The Cyrus Cylinder is not in Old Persian. Old Persian was never written on clay. 
               
              (One exception has turned up among the tens of thousands of Persepolis Fortification Tablets.) 

              The first treatment of the (Babylonian) text of the Cyrus Cylinder was published by H. C. Rawlinson in JRAS n.s. 12 (1880): 70-97.
              --
              Peter T. Daniels grammatim@...


              >
              >From: David Hall <dqhall59@...>
              >To: ANE-2@yahoogroups.com
              >Sent: Wednesday, August 5, 2009 8:41:06 AM
              >Subject: Re: [ANE-2] Persia, Egypt, Babylon
              >

              ><while in Babylon -- a city where Darius held court and which served as a de
              ><facto capital of the Persian Empire -- there is a "painful" (Briant) absence
              ><of such evidence. Apparently no one on ANE sees anything wrong with the
              ><picture of Darius the lawgiver reforming legal codes in Egypt, but not in
              ><Babylon. No one sees a problem with Darius leaving inscriptions in
              ><Babylonian at Behistun, but not in Babylonia.
              >
              >The Cyrus II cylinder was found in Babylon.  It is in the collection of the British Museum.  This clay cylinder was written in Old Persian.
              >The cylinder is a record of the conquest of Babylon in 539 and the Persian king's policy of sending people who were taken captive from their homelands by the Babylonians back to their homelands.
              >
              >The cylinder was found in 1879 in the ruins of the city of Babylon by Hormuzd Rassam, a Mesopotamian Christian, who had been trained by Henry Austen Layard while working for the British Museum during the excavation of Nineveh. 
              >
              >The evidence for the Persian occupation of Babylon was found in an obscure place by doing a two minute google search.  One should remember not to overlook the obvious.    
              >
              >David Q. Hall 
            • Björn Lindborg
              ... Previously, Liz Fried wrote:
              Message 6 of 9 , Aug 5, 2009
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                --- In ANE-2@yahoogroups.com, "Clark Whelton" <cwhelton@...> wrote:

                > I don't claim to know the answers. This is a complex puzzle and
                > I've changed my views on the subject several times. If I had to
                > bet, I'd say the problem stems from an inflated chronology that
                > gave rise to dark ages, intermediate periods and ad hoc explanations
                > for missing evidence. Whatever the cause, the Medes and Chaldeans
                > cling to a fragile existence as literary creations. If not for
                > Greek and Biblical texts, big chunks of the 1st millennium --
                > including much of the Achaemenid Empire -- would have been engulfed
                > by dark ages.

                > Clark Whelton
                > New York


                Previously, Liz Fried wrote:
                << Let's be clear on what a stratum is, first of all, and how they
                are detected in the archaeological record.

                A stratum is first of all a DESTRUCTION LAYER. Archaeologists dig
                through debris until they get to a floor. The debris between one
                floor and the next is a stratum. When a town is destroyed, and people
                go back and rebuild it on top of the previous city, they level the
                debris, and build a new city on top of the old. That accounts for the
                tells. >>


                I believe that Liz Fried's description of what a stratum is and how
                they are detected in the archaeological record is an important part
                of the "complex puzzle".

                The Neo-Assyrian empire also left very few if any 'destruction
                layers' inside the Assyrian heartland until the last years of
                invasion and destruction. In their book 'The Bible Unearthed',
                Finkelstein and Silberman devote a whole chapter (Appendix) to
                explain why the long reign of Manasse is very poorly attested in
                the archaeological record of Palestine: it was a time of peace with
                Assyria, and there were no 'smoking ruins' producing destruction
                layers to help future archaeologists.

                The problem with solutions by removing alleged 'Dark Ages' in certain
                cultures is that those time periods are almost always attested in
                other parts of the world, so these reduced chronologies will destroy
                established synchronisms. Attempts to shorten the 'Dark Ages' of
                Greece and Anatolia disregard the fact that life went on with
                'business as usual' in the Hallstatt culture of central Europe, with
                continued trade with Iron Age Italy. You can't just remove those
                years that appear (almost) empty for the moment, because even those
                blank pages are likely to be written on, sooner or later. E.g., there
                was a Congress in Lisbon in 2006, "A New Dawn for the Dark Age?",
                devoted to a detailed study of the Iron Age chronology of
                Mediterranean 'Dark Age' cultures (BAR International Series 1871,
                2008).


                Björn Lindborg
              • Ariel L. Szczupak
                ... Ariel. [100% bona fide dilettante ... delecto ergo sum!] ... Ariel L. Szczupak AMIS-JLM (Ricercar Ltd.) POB 4707, Jerusalem, Israel 91406 Phone:
                Message 7 of 9 , Aug 5, 2009
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                  At 08:26 AM 8/5/2009, Clark Whelton wrote:
                  >[...] If I had to bet, I'd say the problem stems from an inflated
                  >chronology that gave rise to dark ages, intermediate periods and ad
                  >hoc explanations for missing evidence. [...]

                  Sounds familiar. Let's see ... here:

                  >At 09:30 AM 2/27/2006, Ariel L. Szczupak wrote:
                  >At 19:25 26/02/2006, Clark Whelton wrote:
                  >[...]
                  >Please not Heinsohn again :(

                  :(


                  Ariel.

                  [100% bona fide dilettante ... delecto ergo sum!]

                  ---
                  Ariel L. Szczupak
                  AMIS-JLM (Ricercar Ltd.)
                  POB 4707, Jerusalem, Israel 91406
                  Phone: +972-2-5619660 Fax: +972-2-5634203
                  ane.als@...
                  ---
                  http://yvetteszczupakthomas.blogspot.com/
                  http://undiamantbrut.blogspot.com/
                • David Hall
                  I have not accomplished much in Persian period research, thus I incorrectly described this cylinder after I read a few web pages about it this morning. 
                  Message 8 of 9 , Aug 5, 2009
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                    I have not accomplished much in Persian period research, thus I incorrectly described this cylinder after I read a few web pages about it this morning.  Thanks for correcting me.  I have read Layard's writtings and one rare book published by Rassam.  Layard was a self-educated archaeologist and author who later won a seat in the British parliament.   

                    David Q. Hall




                    ________________________________
                    From: Peter T. Daniels <grammatim@...>
                    To: ANE-2@yahoogroups.com
                    Sent: Wednesday, August 5, 2009 11:19:10 AM
                    Subject: Re: [ANE-2] Persia, Egypt, Babylon

                     
                    The Cyrus Cylinder is not in Old Persian. Old Persian was never written on clay. 
                     
                    (One exception has turned up among the tens of thousands of Persepolis Fortification Tablets.) 

                    The first treatment of the (Babylonian) text of the Cyrus Cylinder was published by H. C. Rawlinson in JRAS n.s. 12 (1880): 70-97.
                    --
                    Peter T. Daniels grammatim@verizon. net

                    >
                    >From: David Hall <dqhall59@yahoo. com>
                    >To: ANE-2@yahoogroups. com
                    >Sent: Wednesday, August 5, 2009 8:41:06 AM
                    >Subject: Re: [ANE-2] Persia, Egypt, Babylon
                    >

                    ><while in Babylon -- a city where Darius held court and which served as a de
                    ><facto capital of the Persian Empire -- there is a "painful" (Briant) absence
                    ><of such evidence. Apparently no one on ANE sees anything wrong with the
                    ><picture of Darius the lawgiver reforming legal codes in Egypt, but not in
                    ><Babylon. No one sees a problem with Darius leaving inscriptions in
                    ><Babylonian at Behistun, but not in Babylonia.
                    >
                    >The Cyrus II cylinder was found in Babylon.  It is in the collection of the British Museum.  This clay cylinder was written in Old Persian.
                    >The cylinder is a record of the conquest of Babylon in 539 and the Persian king's policy of sending people who were taken captive from their homelands by the Babylonians back to their homelands.
                    >
                    >The cylinder was found in 1879 in the ruins of the city of Babylon by Hormuzd Rassam, a Mesopotamian Christian, who had been trained by Henry Austen Layard while working for the British Museum during the excavation of Nineveh. 
                    >
                    >The evidence for the Persian occupation of Babylon was found in an obscure place by doing a two minute google search.  One should remember not to overlook the obvious.    
                    >
                    >David Q. Hall 






                    [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                  • David Lorton
                    And, if I may be allowed to add: Please not Velikovsky again! David Lorton Baltimore, MD
                    Message 9 of 9 , Aug 5, 2009
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                      And, if I may be allowed to add: Please not Velikovsky again!

                      David Lorton
                      Baltimore, MD

                      -----Original Message-----
                      >From: "Ariel L. Szczupak" <ane.als@...>
                      >Sent: Aug 5, 2009 2:34 PM
                      >To: ANE-2@yahoogroups.com
                      >Subject: Re: [ANE-2] Persia, Egypt, Babylon
                      >
                      >At 08:26 AM 8/5/2009, Clark Whelton wrote:
                      >>[...] If I had to bet, I'd say the problem stems from an inflated
                      >>chronology that gave rise to dark ages, intermediate periods and ad
                      >>hoc explanations for missing evidence. [...]
                      >
                      >Sounds familiar. Let's see ... here:
                      >
                      >>At 09:30 AM 2/27/2006, Ariel L. Szczupak wrote:
                      >>At 19:25 26/02/2006, Clark Whelton wrote:
                      >>[...]
                      >>Please not Heinsohn again :(
                      >
                      >:(
                      >
                      >
                      >Ariel.
                      >
                      >[100% bona fide dilettante ... delecto ergo sum!]
                      >
                      >---
                      >Ariel L. Szczupak
                      >AMIS-JLM (Ricercar Ltd.)
                      >POB 4707, Jerusalem, Israel 91406
                      >Phone: +972-2-5619660 Fax: +972-2-5634203
                      >ane.als@...
                      >---
                      >http://yvetteszczupakthomas.blogspot.com/
                      >http://undiamantbrut.blogspot.com/
                      >
                      >
                      >
                      >------------------------------------
                      >
                      >Yahoo! Groups Links
                      >
                      >
                      >
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