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Re: Exile and return -- dating questions

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  • Brian Colless
    Thus spake the Archangel Ariel ... And I will play the Devil. The pill we are being asked to swallow must surely be that the whole of the Torah-Neb-Ket was
    Message 1 of 148 , Aug 1 3:18 AM
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      Thus spake the Archangel Ariel

      > However I don't think that a claim that it {the book of Kings}
      > *couldn't* have been
      > written in the Persian period is sustainable, and I'm willing to play
      > devil's advocate if need be.
      >
      > Ariel.


      And I will play the Devil.

      The pill we are being asked to swallow must surely be that the whole
      of the Torah-Neb-Ket was originally composed in Greek, the only
      language that mattered in the Hellenistic era, using Greek sources
      such as Berossos; it was authored by 72 hacks; but many years later
      they handed it over to the Scribes, who thought it might sound nice in
      the Holy Tongue, so they wrote Aramaic Targums to the Greek text, and
      then they were ready to produce archaizing Hebrew translations, racing
      against time to ensure they made it into the Dead Sea Scrolls
      collection.

      I suppose, in this scheme, chronologically the Chronicler's Books of
      Chronicles would have preceded the Books of Kings (malarky!!).

      Now that we understand quantum physics, we realize that the Return
      preceded the Exile, which was followed, unless I am seriously
      mistaken, by the Exodus, and then the Deluge (borrowed from Berossos
      and possibly his teacher Josephus). The Creation of the World in the
      beginning must be due to happen soon.

      Brian Colless PhD (Melbourne) MTh [Hebrew, Aramaic, Syriac] London,
      failed)


      On 1/08/2009, at 9:28 PM, Ariel L. Szczupak wrote:

      > At 11:25 AM 8/1/2009, zmbq wrote:
      > >
      > >
      > >Frank and Ariel,
      > >
      > >I'm not sure why you try to limit the writing of the book of Kings
      > >to the Persian period. [...]
      >
      > I don't. On the contrary, I think it's unlikely.
      >
      > However I don't think that a claim that it *couldn't* have been
      > written in the Persian period is sustainable, and I'm willing to play
      > devil's advocate if need be.
      >
      > Ariel.
      >
      > [100% bona fide dilettante ... delecto ergo sum!]
      >
      > ---
      > Ariel L. Szczupak
      > AMIS-JLM (Ricercar Ltd.)
      > POB 4707, Jerusalem, Israel 91406
      > Phone: +972-2-5619660 Fax: +972-2-5634203
      > ane.als@...
      > ---
      > http://yvetteszczupakthomas.blogspot.com/
      > http://undiamantbrut.blogspot.com/
      >
      >
      >



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    • Lisbeth S. Fried
      Hi David, I’ve seen it argued that it is not Darius, but a Saitic king, and Darius just added his name. I don’t have the references with me now, as I’m
      Message 148 of 148 , Aug 2 1:35 PM
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        Hi David,

        I’ve seen it argued that it is not Darius, but a Saitic king, and Darius just added his name.

        I don’t have the references with me now, as I’m in Israel at the WCJS.

        All the best,

        Liz

        Ann Arbor, and Jerusalem



        _____

        From: ANE-2@yahoogroups.com [mailto:ANE-2@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of David Lorton
        Sent: Friday, July 31, 2009 11:34 PM
        To: ANE-2@yahoogroups.com
        Subject: Re: [ANE-2] Persian Empire





        -----Original Message-----
        >From: Clark Whelton <cwhelton@mindspring <mailto:cwhelton%40mindspring.com> .com>
        >Sent: Jul 30, 2009 11:34 PM
        >To: ANE-2@yahoogroups. <mailto:ANE-2%40yahoogroups.com> com
        >Subject: Re: [ANE-2] Persian Empire

        >Liz wrote:
        >>>>>>>>>...Take Egypt for example. Where are the Persian period temples or
        >>>>>>>>>artifacts?
        >Well, we have an occasional statue of Darius, but not much>

        Let's not forget the temple of Hibis. Throughout the temple, we see Darius, dressed as an Egyptian pharaoh and identified by name in his cartouches.

        >Clark writes:
        >
        >I think there was a Persian Empire, but as things stand now it's mostly a
        >literary construct. With so little material evidence it's only a matter of
        >time until the Persian Empire shares the peculiar fate of the Medes,
        >celebrated in Greek sources but absent in the ground, even in their Iranian
        >homeland. The chronology of the ANE is trying to tell us something. The
        >third and second millennia are rich in archaeological finds -- Sumerians,
        >Old Babylonians, Mitanni, the New Kingdom, Mycenaeans. But the first
        >millennium has nothing for the Chaldeans, little for the empire Persians,
        >nothing for the Medes, little for pre-Ptolemaic Egypt, and a Dark Age in
        >pre-Hellenic Greece. What's wrong with this picture?

        Mr. Whelton raises this question of the lack of Persian strata in Mesopotamia every year or so. It's always thoroughly answered . . . but then he raises it again. And now the question, "What's wrong with this picture?" Why should we think anything is wrong with the picture? And if Mr. Whelton thinks he has an answer to his question, would he kindly share it?

        David Lorton
        Baltimore, MD





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