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Re: SV: [ANE-2] Exile and return -- dating questions

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  • zmbq
    Frank and Ariel, I m not sure why you try to limit the writing of the book of Kings to the Persian period. While clearly parts of it were added after
    Message 1 of 148 , Aug 1, 2009
      Frank and Ariel,

      I'm not sure why you try to limit the writing of the book of Kings to the Persian period. While clearly parts of it were added after Jerusalem's destruction by the Babylonians, the bulk of the work could have been done PRIOR to the destruction.

      After the Assyrian empire collapsed, Judea enjoyed a sort of liberation. We know from the City of David excavations officials were literate - we have the bullae from the late 6th century and we have the tunnel's inscription from before that. So it can be safely assumed more than 30 people knew how to write.

      So expanding the time-frame used for this work backwards seem to solve all of your concerns, doesn't it?

      Itay Zandbank.

      --- In ANE-2@yahoogroups.com, "Ariel L. Szczupak" <ane.als@...> wrote:
      > At 09:34 PM 7/29/2009, frankclancy wrote:
      > >
      > >
      > >--- In <mailto:ANE-2%40yahoogroups.com>ANE-2@yahoogroups.com, "Ariel
      > >L. Szczupak" <ane.als@> wrote:
      > > >>
      > > > What was the population of Iceland in the 11th century?
      > > >
      > > >
      > > > ---
      > > > Ariel L. Szczupak
      > >
      > >Dear Ariel - it has been about 20 years since I worked on the
      > >demographic history of Iceland so my figures may be a bit dated.
      > >However, Iceland is a perfect example for comparison.
      > >
      > >In the 11th cent all of the arable land was used and the 11th and
      > >12th centuries were demographic high points. The estimates for that
      > >period range about 70,000 to 100,000. However, over the next couple
      > >of centuries the population suffered badly from crop failures due to
      > >the increasing cold weather, volcanic eruptions, and the Black Death
      > >which was utterly devastating (some estimate half the population
      > >dies). By 1500, the population was reduced to about 20,000-25,000.
      > >
      > >The production of literature during the 16th cent., when the
      > >population was almost as small and as devastated as Yehudah, was
      > >almost nil and when the population was several times larger than
      > >that of Persian period Yehudah and more prosperous, we have the
      > >eddas - only a few remain. However, we should remember that in the
      > >11th century there was plenty of trading with Norway, Denmark,
      > >Ireland, England, Normandy etc (the bubonic plague it seems arrived
      > >on a trading ship out of Bristol, England). There were the
      > >languages, traditions, literary models of the whole region as their
      > >inheritance. The literature was in the traditions of Norway, Denmark
      > >etc. At no time did the Icelanders create a brand new theology,
      > >literary tradition etc.
      > And similarly, the Persian-time Judeans had a connection to the
      > culture of "expatriate" Judeans in Mesopotamia & Egypt and to the
      > Persian, Greek & Egyptian cultures.
      > And the theology & literature were new, but not "brand new" in the
      > sense of being completely disconnected from the rest of the
      > religious/cultural world. Specifically, the degree of religious
      > innovation depends on it being pre/post Akhenaton or Zoroaster
      > (whatever time he was).
      > >Finally, unlike the Judeans in the Persian period, the Icelanders
      > >ruled themselves and did not have to worry about a dominant alien power.
      > Is self-rule necessary or significantly important to
      > intellectual/artistic creativity? I don't think this is a relevant
      > criterion, re the Jews in Moorish Spain.
      > >The question you should ask now is simple - why didn't the
      > >Icelanders match the extraordinary intellectual production of the
      > >Judeans? Were they lesser or sub humans?
      > Serious? Could you please restate clearly the argument you make about
      > Persian-time Judeans? Are you arguing that Persian-time Judeans
      > couldn't have written the HB from scratch? Couldn't as differentiated
      > from unlikely?
      > >Frank Clancy
      > >
      > >
      > Ariel.
      > [100% bona fide dilettante ... delecto ergo sum!]
      > ---
      > Ariel L. Szczupak
      > AMIS-JLM (Ricercar Ltd.)
      > POB 4707, Jerusalem, Israel 91406
      > Phone: +972-2-5619660 Fax: +972-2-5634203
      > ane.als@...
      > ---
      > http://yvetteszczupakthomas.blogspot.com/
      > http://undiamantbrut.blogspot.com/
    • Lisbeth S. Fried
      Hi David, I’ve seen it argued that it is not Darius, but a Saitic king, and Darius just added his name. I don’t have the references with me now, as I’m
      Message 148 of 148 , Aug 2, 2009
        Hi David,

        I’ve seen it argued that it is not Darius, but a Saitic king, and Darius just added his name.

        I don’t have the references with me now, as I’m in Israel at the WCJS.

        All the best,


        Ann Arbor, and Jerusalem


        From: ANE-2@yahoogroups.com [mailto:ANE-2@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of David Lorton
        Sent: Friday, July 31, 2009 11:34 PM
        To: ANE-2@yahoogroups.com
        Subject: Re: [ANE-2] Persian Empire

        -----Original Message-----
        >From: Clark Whelton <cwhelton@mindspring <mailto:cwhelton%40mindspring.com> .com>
        >Sent: Jul 30, 2009 11:34 PM
        >To: ANE-2@yahoogroups. <mailto:ANE-2%40yahoogroups.com> com
        >Subject: Re: [ANE-2] Persian Empire

        >Liz wrote:
        >>>>>>>>>...Take Egypt for example. Where are the Persian period temples or
        >Well, we have an occasional statue of Darius, but not much>

        Let's not forget the temple of Hibis. Throughout the temple, we see Darius, dressed as an Egyptian pharaoh and identified by name in his cartouches.

        >Clark writes:
        >I think there was a Persian Empire, but as things stand now it's mostly a
        >literary construct. With so little material evidence it's only a matter of
        >time until the Persian Empire shares the peculiar fate of the Medes,
        >celebrated in Greek sources but absent in the ground, even in their Iranian
        >homeland. The chronology of the ANE is trying to tell us something. The
        >third and second millennia are rich in archaeological finds -- Sumerians,
        >Old Babylonians, Mitanni, the New Kingdom, Mycenaeans. But the first
        >millennium has nothing for the Chaldeans, little for the empire Persians,
        >nothing for the Medes, little for pre-Ptolemaic Egypt, and a Dark Age in
        >pre-Hellenic Greece. What's wrong with this picture?

        Mr. Whelton raises this question of the lack of Persian strata in Mesopotamia every year or so. It's always thoroughly answered . . . but then he raises it again. And now the question, "What's wrong with this picture?" Why should we think anything is wrong with the picture? And if Mr. Whelton thinks he has an answer to his question, would he kindly share it?

        David Lorton
        Baltimore, MD

        [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
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