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RE: [ANE-2] Re: Yanoam in Transjordan? (was: Seti I and Yanoam)

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  • David Hall
    There is a link in google for a Tell el-Hamme Station in Syria(?).  It is located on a map SE of the Sea of Galilee.  During the early 20th century this
    Message 1 of 24 , Jun 11, 2009
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      There is a link in google for a Tell el-Hamme Station in Syria(?).  It is located on a map SE of the Sea of Galilee.  During the early 20th century this entire region was part of Syria. After WWI different lines were drawn. The area was served by a railway during those days, as I have read numerous early travelogues about this region.  
       
      http://www.traveljournals.net/explore/syria/map/m3491706/el_hamme_station.html

      On a different map Tell el-Hamme it was shown closer to the SE corner of the Sea of Galilee north of the Yarmak River.

      It seems to me Breasted may have mistakenly read (Tyr...) as Tyre instead of Tyrqel. Tyrqel is listed in the Anastasi Papyrus during Ramesses II's reign. One scribe asked another if he knew the significance of Tyrqel and Beth Shean as he tried to shame the other scribe about his lack of knowledge.

      Thanks for the help. I can now more easily see that Israel was most likely in the hill country of Israel and/or Jordan during Merneptah's time shortly before 1200. The name Israel was used with a heiroglyphic determinative to describe a people rather than an indivudual city.

      David Q Hall   

      --- On Thu, 6/11/09, Miller, Robert <millerb@...> wrote:


      From: Miller, Robert <millerb@...>
      Subject: RE: [ANE-2] Re: Yanoam in Transjordan? (was: Seti I and Yanoam)
      To: ANE-2@yahoogroups.com
      Date: Thursday, June 11, 2009, 3:10 PM








      There is a Seti I stele from Beth Shean (stele #12). It mentions Rehov
      on line 10, and a Khamath, too, which has to be identified with Tell
      el-Hamme excavated by Lisa Cahill in the 1980s (three Iron I strata). It
      also appears on Seti I Karnak XII.50, Seti I Karnak XIV.52(55), Seti I
      el-Qurne North and South Sphinxes #14, and Rameses II Karnak #27.

      Bob Miller
      Catholic University

      [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
    • Jon Smyth
      My sincere oppologies for that momentary lapse. As some have deduced I meant Stela of Seti I . Perhaps, as David Hall seems to have access to Rowe s book,
      Message 2 of 24 , Jun 11, 2009
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        My sincere oppologies for that momentary lapse. As some have deduced
        I meant "Stela of Seti I".
        Perhaps, as David Hall seems to have access to Rowe's book, could
        David possibly check page 30?
        Rowe's suggestion that the tell esh-Shihab portion was the missing
        top for the remains of the Beth Shean stela, was said to be on page
        30.

        Many thanks, Jon Smyth
        Toronto, CAN.

        --- In ANE-2@yahoogroups.com, "arenmaeir" <maeira@...> wrote:
        >
        > Jon,
        > A stela of Shishak at Beth Shean? Or you sure of this? I don't
        recall this...
        > I would think you would be refering to Seti I, Rameses II?
        >
        > Also, if I recall, Stefan Wimmer has recently published a short
        article on and additional Egyptian stela from SE Syria, and mentioned
        an additional one that just came out. Right now I can't access my
        bibliography, but it is somewhere out there.
        >
        > Aren Maeir
        > Still-no-Egyptian-Stelae-at-Gath
        >
      • frankclancy
        Dear David - Hammath was allied with Pehel and the identification of this name with the known city name of Pella is a question mark - in my opinion. Despite
        Message 3 of 24 , Jun 11, 2009
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          Dear David - Hammath was allied with Pehel and the identification of this name with the known city name of Pella is a question mark - in my opinion. Despite the claims of so any scholars, I suggest the city Pella was named after the Macedonian city called Pella and should not be associated with Pehel in the Egyptian texts. I believe Pehel was located north of the Sea of Galilee. I just wish we would not confuse the two names until we have further evidence.

          Frank Clancy



          >Hammath was in league with Pella and they attacked Beth Shean >and Rehob.  
          >  
          > Seperate armies were sent to Hammath, Beth Shean, and Yenoam and they were overthrown in a day. In this campaign the Egyptians stomped the Kharu (Hurrians) and the chiefs of Retenu.
          >  
          > David Q. Hall
          >  
        • frankclancy
          Dear Deane - the question about the Seti inscription is where were these cities? Hammath, as a major centre, was located to the north of the Sea of Galilee.
          Message 4 of 24 , Jun 11, 2009
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            Dear Deane - the question about the Seti inscription is where were these cities? Hammath, as a major centre, was located to the north of the Sea of Galilee. If Na'aman is correct, then Yenoam was located somewhere in the Bashan region - north east of the Sea. The next questions are where was Pehel and where was Rehob? Scholars assume Pehel was Pella and Rehob was Tel Rehov just a couple of miles south of Beth-shean. However, I think that question should be open to discussion. When you look at the Thutmose list of cities, there seems to be a line of cities running south past Dan, Hazor and to Chinnereth. Then the list seems to divide into two roads - one running along ghte northern side of the Jezreel Valley and another running along the southern edge of the same valley and both end at Megiddo. There is one name that seems to be out of place - Pehel. In the list, it is placed just before Chinnereth. If it refers to Pella, then that is an odd place to find that name. The way the list of names runs north to south along an important ancient road, Pehel should be north of the Sea of Galilee somewhere. As for the name Rehob, we have any number of places with this name - including one in the region north of the Sea of Galilee. If we assume that Hammath simply wanted to control the territory around the city and along the trade routes, then the Hazor/Dan region would be a very good area to control and to support. Cities south of Beth-shean and at Pella are too far south to provide good military and other support. In addition, the wings of Seti's army could easily reach and control this region and his military might would not be so divided if all the wings were operating in the same region - north of the Sea.

            I hope that explains my position a little better. Frank Clancy
          • Brian Yare
            Jon Rowe wrote: If we may rely on the photographic evidence, the top of this stela is perhaps none other than the part of the stela of Seti I found at Tell
            Message 5 of 24 , Jun 11, 2009
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              Jon

              Rowe wrote: "If we may rely on the photographic evidence, the top of this
              stela is perhaps none other than
              the part of the stela of Seti I found at Tell esh-Shihab in Transjordan,-
              cf. Vincent,
              Canaan d'apres l'exploration recente, p. 452, fig. 304."

              As you say, this is only a suggestion.


              Brian Yare
              Yare Egyptology
              http://www.yare.org.uk

              > Jon Smyth
              > My sincere oppologies for that momentary lapse. As some have deduced I
              > meant "Stela of Seti I".
              > Perhaps, as David Hall seems to have access to Rowe's book, could David
              > possibly check page 30?
              > Rowe's suggestion that the tell esh-Shihab portion was the missing top
              > for the remains of the Beth Shean stela, was said to be on page 30.
              >
              > Many thanks, Jon Smyth
              > Toronto, CAN.
              >
            • arenmaeir
              Frank, On what basis is your suggestion that Pehel is north of the Sea of Galilee? And what site would fit in with that? Although there is no direct
              Message 6 of 24 , Jun 12, 2009
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                Frank,
                On what basis is your suggestion that Pehel is north of the Sea of Galilee? And what site would fit in with that? Although there is no direct inscriptional evidence to the ID of early "Pihilum" at Kh. Fahl, the very similar Arabic toponym and the archaeological finds from the MB, LB and Iron Age (including the Akkadian inscriptions from the site and the rich imports from many periods), all dovetail perfectly with the ID of this site as Pihilum/Pella - both during the Bronze and Iron Ages and again in the Classical periods.
                To this one can add that the two Amarna texts from Pehel which were examined by Goren et al. appear to be of Central Jordan Valley origin (and not N. Jordan Valley!).
                Unless I am missing something quite blatant, I really don't understand your suggestion!

                Aren Maeir
              • David Hall
                Rowe did describe the likelihood part of a stela found at Tell esh-Shihab in Transjordan might match the part of a Seti I stela found at Beth Shean on pg. 30
                Message 7 of 24 , Jun 12, 2009
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                  Rowe did describe the likelihood part of a stela found at Tell esh-Shihab in Transjordan might match the part of a Seti I stela found at Beth Shean on pg. 30 after Vincent, Canaan d'Apres l'exploration recente, p 452 fig. 304 (photo).
                   
                  David Q. Hall

                  --- On Thu, 6/11/09, Jon Smyth <driver40386@...> wrote:


                  From: Jon Smyth <driver40386@...>
                  Subject: [ANE-2] Re: Yanoam in Transjordan? (was: Seti I and Yanoam)
                  To: ANE-2@yahoogroups.com
                  Date: Thursday, June 11, 2009, 9:03 PM








                  My sincere oppologies for that momentary lapse. As some have deduced
                  I meant "Stela of Seti I".
                  Perhaps, as David Hall seems to have access to Rowe's book, could
                  David possibly check page 30?
                  Rowe's suggestion that the tell esh-Shihab portion was the missing
                  top for the remains of the Beth Shean stela, was said to be on page
                  30.

                  Many thanks, Jon Smyth
                  Toronto, CAN.

                  --- In ANE-2@yahoogroups. com, "arenmaeir" <maeira@...> wrote:
                  >
                  > Jon,
                  > A stela of Shishak at Beth Shean? Or you sure of this? I don't
                  recall this...
                  > I would think you would be refering to Seti I, Rameses II?
                  >
                  > Also, if I recall, Stefan Wimmer has recently published a short
                  article on and additional Egyptian stela from SE Syria, and mentioned
                  an additional one that just came out. Right now I can't access my
                  bibliography, but it is somewhere out there.
                  >
                  > Aren Maeir
                  > Still-no-Egyptian- Stelae-at- Gath
                  >
                • Miller, Robert
                  You need to have good arguments to dismiss Tell el-Hamma as Hamath. The Tell el-Hamath excavated by Cahill is SW of Beth Shean, a good deal closer to Tel Rehov
                  Message 8 of 24 , Jun 12, 2009
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                    You need to have good arguments to dismiss Tell el-Hamma as Hamath. The Tell el-Hamath excavated by Cahill is SW of Beth Shean, a good deal closer to Tel Rehov than any of the other Hamaths. Is there reason to believe the Hamath of the B.S. Seti I stele is other than the Hamath of the other Seti I inscriptions? If not, then we have to take account of the location of Hamath on those inscriptions, as well. Tell el-Hamath fits all of them quite well. Check out the following:

                    Cahill, J. M., Lipton (Lipovich), G., and Tarler, D., 1988. Tell el-Hammah. IEJ 38:191-94.
                    Cahill, J. M., Tarler, D., and Lipton (Lipovich), G., 1989a. Tell el-Hammah. ESI 9:134-35.
                    ----------, 1989b. Tell el-Hammeh in the 10th Century BCE. Qadmoniot 22:33-38.

                    Bob Miller
                    Catholic University





                    From: Deane Galbraith
                    Sent: Thu 6/11/2009 6:41 PM
                    To: ANE-2@yahoogroups.com
                    Subject: RE: [ANE-2] Re: Yanoam in Transjordan? (was: Seti I and Yanoam)






                    > Frank Clancy wrote:
                    > I asked Anson Rainey by e-mail about Yanoam and he insists it was located in the Jordan Valley/Yarmuk River region south of the Sea of Galilee. If he is correct, then "Israel" homeland is west and and slightly south of this location so no adjustment should be made - if "Israel" is located in the Samaria/Shechem region. On the other hand, Nadav Na'aman ("Yenoam" Tel Aviv 4. 1977: 168-177) argued that Yanoam should be located north east of the Sea of Galilee at the edge of the Bashan region.

                    Deane:
                    In that article, doesn't Na'aman contend that Yano'am is probably *south* east of the Sea of Galilee? "Tell esh-Shihab, situation west of Edrei on the Yarmuk River"

                    > Frank Clancy wrote:
                    > If Hamath was responsible for stirring up problems for Seti, then the region north of the Sea of Galilee makes more sense to me.

                    Deane:
                    Why?

                    > Jon Smyth
                    > it seemed to me Na'aman's opinion on the location of Yanoam
                    is influenced by the stela portion found at tell esh-Shihab in
                    Transjordan.

                    Deane:
                    Yes, but to be fair, the main evidence Na'aman adduces is the topographical lists which locate Yeno'am in Bashan or southern Syria. (And there is conflicting evidence on this, as he notes.)

                    Tell esh-Shihab seems to be a little too far away from a plausible site of Yano'am, given the close proximity of Beth-Shean, Rehob, Hammath, and Pehel in the Beth-Shean/Jordan valley, as per the Beth-shean stele. Is it even within a day's journey and military engagement, as the Beth-shean stele requires?

                    As for the Merneptah Stele, if Yano'am is closer to Beth-shean than Tell esh-Shihab, then the Cisjordan highland is as likely as the Transjordan for locating 'Israel'.

                    Mind you, if Merneptah went through Megiddo to get to Beth-shean-Yano'am, maybe Ya-si-r-'-l refers to the people of the Jezreel Valley? The towns along there were a recognized group which the determinative could have referred to, don't you think?

                    And how much logical geographical flow can you conclude from the mention of two Philistine towns and one town somewhere in the region of Beth-shean (Yano'am)? Not too much. The Merneptah stele is not helpful for locating 'Israel' when it comes down to it, apart from it being in 'Canaan'.

                    Deane Galbraith,
                    Antipodes





                    [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                  • frankclancy
                    Dear Aren - I missed that analysis by Goren et al and I shall have to look at it. It has been about 10 years since I looked at the question. The name kh.
                    Message 9 of 24 , Jun 12, 2009
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                      Dear Aren - I missed that analysis by Goren et al and I shall have to look at it. It has been about 10 years since I looked at the question. The name kh. Fahl certainly reflects the name "Pella" but, if I remember correctly, one of the archaeologists - perhaps McNichol but I cannot say for certain- suggested it may the site of Jabesh-Gilead. Pella certainly was an important Bronze age site - particularly in the MB period. Also, there was a Rehov just across the way. When I was at Tel Rehov, I could see the area where Pella was located just across the Jordan River very easily. I will have to find that Goren article. Would you please give me the details. Thanks.

                      Frank Clancy
                    • arenmaeir
                      Frank, Rehov is not suitable for the ID, since there is virtually no MB on the site after more than a decade of excavation. Jabesh Gilead should be situated in
                      Message 10 of 24 , Jun 12, 2009
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                        Frank,
                        Rehov is not suitable for the ID, since there is virtually no MB on the site after more than a decade of excavation.
                        Jabesh Gilead should be situated in the highlands, not in the valley, at the top of W. Yabis!
                        Goren et al is the volume on the petrography of the Amarna texts.

                        Best,
                        Aren
                      • arenmaeir
                        For the most updated report and extensive on the excavations of Tell el-Hammah, see: Cahill, J. 2006. The Excavations at Tell el-Hammah: A Prelude to Amihai
                        Message 11 of 24 , Jun 12, 2009
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                          For the most updated report and extensive on the excavations of Tell el-Hammah, see:

                          Cahill, J. 2006. The Excavations at Tell el-Hammah: A Prelude to Amihai Mazar's Beth-Shean Valley Regional Project. Pp. 429–60 in "I Will Speak the Riddles of Ancient Times": Archaeological and Historical Studies in Honor of Amihai Mazar on the Occasion of His Sixtieth Birthday, eds. A. Maeir and P. de Miroschedji. Winona Lake, IN: Eisenbrauns.


                          Aren Maeir
                        • Deane Galbraith
                          Dear Frank, Thank you for your fuller explanation. It seems to me that the only weakness in the identification of Pehel as Pella which you identify is that it
                          Message 12 of 24 , Jun 14, 2009
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                            Dear Frank,

                            Thank you for your fuller explanation. It seems to me that the only weakness in the identification of Pehel as Pella which you identify is that it is included in an odd place in the Thutmose list. (Yet, is the list in strict geographical progression, anyway?) But the great strength of the identiication is that Pehel appears together with Beth-Shean, Rehob and Yanoam on a few lists (including one from Beth-Shean itself) - the conjunction of which provides fairly strong evidence for placing them in the area of Beth-Shean, south of the Sea of Galilee. So unless some very strong evidence for placing these place-names to the north of the Sea of Galilee is provided, I don't see any good reason for accepting such a suggestion.

                            When you refer to Hammath as the "major centre", you don't mean Hammath which is to the north of Qedesh, or what site?

                            Na'aman ("Yeno'am." Tel Aviv 4 (1977): 168-177) doesn't place Yanoam north of the Sea of Galilee, but south, on the Yarmuk - that is, on the other side of the Jordan from Beth-Shean.

                            Deane Galbraith
                            Antipodes




                            > Dear Deane - the question about the Seti inscription is where were these cities? Hammath, as a major centre, was located to the north of the Sea of Galilee. If Na'aman is correct, then Yenoam was located somewhere in the Bashan region - north east of the Sea. The next questions are where was Pehel and where was Rehob? Scholars assume Pehel was Pella and Rehob was Tel Rehov just a couple of miles south of Beth-shean. However, I think that question should be open to discussion. When you look at the Thutmose list of cities, there seems to be a line of cities running south past Dan, Hazor and to Chinnereth. Then the list seems to divide into two roads - one running along ghte northern side of the Jezreel Valley and another running along the southern edge of the same valley and both end at Megiddo. There is one name that seems to be out of place - Pehel. In the list, it is placed just before Chinnereth. If it refers to Pella, then that is an odd place to
                            find that name. The way the list of names runs north to south along an important ancient road, Pehel should be north of the Sea of Galilee somewhere. As for the name Rehob, we have any number of places with this name - including one in the region north of the Sea of Galilee. If we assume that Hammath simply wanted to control the territory around the city and along the trade routes, then the Hazor/Dan region would be a very good area to control and to support. Cities south of Beth-shean and at Pella are too far south to provide good military and other support. In addition, the wings of Seti's army could easily reach and control this region and his military might would not be so divided if all the wings were operating in the same region - north of the Sea.

                            > I hope that explains my position a little better. Frank Clancy
                          • eliot braun
                            Has anyone considered the small size of Tell el Hamath as an impediment to the identification of the site? I always wondered about that myself. Eliot Braun, Ph
                            Message 13 of 24 , Jun 16, 2009
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                              Has anyone considered the small size of Tell el Hamath as an impediment to the identification of the site? I always wondered about that myself.

                              Eliot Braun, Ph D
                              Sr. Fellow WF Albright Institute of Archaeological Research, Jerusalem
                              Associate Researcher Centre de Recherche Français de Jérusalem
                              PO Box 21, Har Adar 90836 Israel
                              Tel 972-2-5345687, Cell 972-50-2231096

                              --- On Fri, 6/12/09, Miller, Robert <millerb@...> wrote:


                              From: Miller, Robert <millerb@...>
                              Subject: [ANE-2] Yanoam in Transjordan? (was: Seti I and Yanoam)
                              To: ANE-2@yahoogroups.com
                              Date: Friday, June 12, 2009, 3:11 PM








                              You need to have good arguments to dismiss Tell el-Hamma as Hamath. The Tell el-Hamath excavated by Cahill is SW of Beth Shean, a good deal closer to Tel Rehov than any of the other Hamaths. Is there reason to believe the Hamath of the B.S. Seti I stele is other than the Hamath of the other Seti I inscriptions? If not, then we have to take account of the location of Hamath on those inscriptions, as well. Tell el-Hamath fits all of them quite well. Check out the following:

                              Cahill, J. M., Lipton (Lipovich), G., and Tarler, D., 1988. Tell el-Hammah. IEJ 38:191-94.
                              Cahill, J. M., Tarler, D., and Lipton (Lipovich), G., 1989a. Tell el-Hammah. ESI 9:134-35.
                              ----------, 1989b. Tell el-Hammeh in the 10th Century BCE. Qadmoniot 22:33-38.

                              Bob Miller
                              Catholic University

                              From: Deane Galbraith
                              Sent: Thu 6/11/2009 6:41 PM
                              To: ANE-2@yahoogroups. com
                              Subject: RE: [ANE-2] Re: Yanoam in Transjordan? (was: Seti I and Yanoam)

                              > Frank Clancy wrote:
                              > I asked Anson Rainey by e-mail about Yanoam and he insists it was located in the Jordan Valley/Yarmuk River region south of the Sea of Galilee. If he is correct, then "Israel" homeland is west and and slightly south of this location so no adjustment should be made - if "Israel" is located in the Samaria/Shechem region. On the other hand, Nadav Na'aman ("Yenoam" Tel Aviv 4. 1977: 168-177) argued that Yanoam should be located north east of the Sea of Galilee at the edge of the Bashan region.

                              Deane:
                              In that article, doesn't Na'aman contend that Yano'am is probably *south* east of the Sea of Galilee? "Tell esh-Shihab, situation west of Edrei on the Yarmuk River"

                              > Frank Clancy wrote:
                              > If Hamath was responsible for stirring up problems for Seti, then the region north of the Sea of Galilee makes more sense to me.

                              Deane:
                              Why?

                              > Jon Smyth
                              > it seemed to me Na'aman's opinion on the location of Yanoam
                              is influenced by the stela portion found at tell esh-Shihab in
                              Transjordan.

                              Deane:
                              Yes, but to be fair, the main evidence Na'aman adduces is the topographical lists which locate Yeno'am in Bashan or southern Syria. (And there is conflicting evidence on this, as he notes.)

                              Tell esh-Shihab seems to be a little too far away from a plausible site of Yano'am, given the close proximity of Beth-Shean, Rehob, Hammath, and Pehel in the Beth-Shean/Jordan valley, as per the Beth-shean stele. Is it even within a day's journey and military engagement, as the Beth-shean stele requires?

                              As for the Merneptah Stele, if Yano'am is closer to Beth-shean than Tell esh-Shihab, then the Cisjordan highland is as likely as the Transjordan for locating 'Israel'.

                              Mind you, if Merneptah went through Megiddo to get to Beth-shean-Yano' am, maybe Ya-si-r-'-l refers to the people of the Jezreel Valley? The towns along there were a recognized group which the determinative could have referred to, don't you think?

                              And how much logical geographical flow can you conclude from the mention of two Philistine towns and one town somewhere in the region of Beth-shean (Yano'am)? Not too much. The Merneptah stele is not helpful for locating 'Israel' when it comes down to it, apart from it being in 'Canaan'.

                              Deane Galbraith,
                              Antipodes

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                            • stefanjakobwimmer
                              ... On the article Aren mentioned, see ANE2 Message # 10517. The article is online as pdf: http://www.stefan-jakob-wimmer.de/3ICAANE_wimmer.pdf (I suggested
                              Message 14 of 24 , Jun 23, 2009
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                                >
                                > Also, if I recall, Stefan Wimmer has recently published a short article on and additional Egyptian stela from SE Syria, and mentioned an additional one that just came out. Right now I can't access my bibliography, but it is somewhere out there.
                                >
                                > Aren Maeir
                                > Still-no-Egyptian-Stelae-at-Gath
                                >


                                On the article Aren mentioned, see ANE2 Message # 10517.
                                The article is online as pdf:
                                http://www.stefan-jakob-wimmer.de/3ICAANE_wimmer.pdf
                                (I suggested there that the newly found stela from at-Turra, near Tell esh-Shihab, might strengthen the latter's option for being identified with Yenoam.)

                                In the postscriptum to this article I announced that I would prepare a note on an even newer Ramesside inscription from near Damascus. Upon request by the Director of Antiquities and Museums of Syria, I have withdrawn that paper from the upcoming issue of "Goettinger Miszellen", pending the publication of the new inscription. (I do hope, though, that my draft has reached the person entrusted with the publication - I sent it to Director Dr. Bassam Jamous - and that it might prove useful to her/him.)

                                Stefan Wimmer
                                University of Munich
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