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Re: Seti I and Yanoam

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  • frankclancy
    Dear David - I asked Anson Rainey by e-mail about Yanoam and he insists it was located in the Jordan Valley/Yarmuk River region south of the Sea of Galilee.
    Message 1 of 24 , Jun 10, 2009
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      Dear David - I asked Anson Rainey by e-mail about Yanoam and he insists it was located in the Jordan Valley/Yarmuk River region south of the Sea of Galilee. If he is correct, then "Israel" homeland is west and and slightly south of this location so no adjustment should be made - if "Israel" is located in the Samaria/Shechem region. On the other hand, Nadav Na'aman ("Yenoam" Tel Aviv 4. 1977: 168-177) argued that Yanoam should be located north east of the Sea of Galilee at the edge of the Bashan region. I think Na'aman makes a very good argument. The Seti Beth Shean inscription suggests Pehel and Rehov were located close by and scholars place the location of Pehel at Pella and Rehov just south of Beth Shean at Tel Rehov where Amihai Mazar has been conducting excavations for years. However, there are several locations for Rehov and Pella may be named after a capital city in Macedonia by the Hellenistic inhabitants. When you look at the list of cities by Thutmose, the location of Pehel seems to make more sense if it is north of the Sea of Galilee - possibly in the Tel Dan region - and not at Pella. If Hamath was responsible for stirring up problems for Seti, then the region north of the Sea of Galilee makes more sense to me.

      If we look at the Merneptah inscription, and agree with Na'aman about Yanoam, then location of "Israel" is not as fixed as many scholars assume. If we see the inscription as something that runs south to north (despite what most scholars assume or argue), then "Israel" should be located in the region of Yenoam or further north - in other words, north of the Sea of Galilee somewhere - perhaps in the Tel Dan region. This is the problem with many Egyptian inscriptions concerning this region. Scholars too often read into the inscriptions what they want to see.

      Frank Clancy
    • Kent Sparks
      In my judgment, there s no evidence that early Israel was ever a particular people but only a confederation, or league, or alliance-pick your noun-that
      Message 2 of 24 , Jun 10, 2009
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        In my judgment, there's no evidence that early "Israel" was ever a
        particular people but only a confederation, or league, or alliance-pick your
        noun-that brought together disparate groups (tribes) in a semi-united front
        against common enemies like Egypt, Philistia, etc. The idea that there was
        an original group called Israel, around which other groups coalesced, has no
        basis that I know of, though the theory is often proffered. I suspect that
        the portrait of "Israel" in the Song of Deborah is close to the Israel of
        Merneptah, even if the sources are separated by some time .



        . so unless one simply wants to entirely disassociate Merneptah's "Israel"
        from the Israel known to us through the Bible, inscriptions and artifacts,
        there seems to be no reason to look anywhere else for Merneptah's Israel
        than in the highlands and Transjordan, and perhaps in some areas of the
        Galil, where the oldest sources tell us the component groups would be. In
        other words, I don't believe that the location of Yenoam has any bearing on
        the likely "homeland" of "Israel," though it might tell us something about
        where the Egyptian and Israelite forces confronted each other.



        Kent Sparks

        Eastern University



        From: ANE-2@yahoogroups.com [mailto:ANE-2@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of
        frankclancy
        Sent: Wednesday, June 10, 2009 12:15 PM
        To: ANE-2@yahoogroups.com
        Subject: [ANE-2] Re: Seti I and Yanoam

        Dear David - I asked Anson Rainey by e-mail about Yanoam and he insists it
        was located in the Jordan Valley/Yarmuk River region south of the Sea of
        Galilee. If he is correct, then "Israel" homeland is west and and slightly
        south of this location so no adjustment should be made - if "Israel" is
        located in the Samaria/Shechem region. On the other hand, Nadav Na'aman
        ("Yenoam" Tel Aviv 4. 1977: 168-177) argued that Yanoam should be located
        north east of the Sea of Galilee at the edge of the Bashan region. I think
        Na'aman makes a very good argument. The Seti Beth Shean inscription suggests
        Pehel and Rehov were located close by and scholars place the location of
        Pehel at Pella and Rehov just south of Beth Shean at Tel Rehov where Amihai
        Mazar has been conducting excavations for years. However, there are several
        locations for Rehov and Pella may be named after a capital city in Macedonia
        by the Hellenistic inhabitants. When you look at t he list of cities by
        Thutmose, the location of Pehel seems to make more sense if it is north of
        the Sea of Galilee - possibly in the Tel Dan region - and not at Pella. If
        Hamath was responsible for stirring up problems for Seti, then the region
        north of the Sea of Galilee makes more sense to me.

        If we look at the Merneptah inscription, and agree with Na'aman about
        Yanoam, then location of "Israel" is not as fixed as many scholars assume.
        If we see the inscription as something that runs south to north (despite
        what most scholars assume or argue), then "Israel" should be located in the
        region of Yenoam or further north - in other words, north of the Sea of
        Galilee somewhere - perhaps in the Tel Dan region. This is the problem with
        many Egyptian inscriptions concerning this region. Scholars too often read
        into the inscriptions what they want to see.



        [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
      • David Hall
        Thanks for the input Frank.   On a clear day the region of Tyre might be seen from the top of Mt. Hermon, I found an old B&W photo labled Mt. Hermon looking
        Message 3 of 24 , Jun 10, 2009
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          Thanks for the input Frank.
           
          On a clear day the region of Tyre might be seen from the top of Mt. Hermon, I found an old B&W photo labled Mt. Hermon looking towards Tyre showing the Mediterranean Sea.  In Breasted's reading of the Karnak list, Yanoam was placed after Acco (near Haipha) and after Tyre but was inland.
           
          The Seti I Beth Shean list is fragmentary and disputed.  
           
          Hammath means "hot springs" in the Semitic tongue.  There are two of these in the vicinity of Lake Chinnereth.  One at Hammat Gadara, the other at Hammat Tiberias.  Two or three other minor hot/warm springs exist around the lake shore. 
           
          The exact location of Yenoam remains unsolved.  If the army subdued the area of Beth Shean and then marched on to Yenoam without mentioning any points in between, it might be anywhere.     
           
          In the Merneptah Stele there is a large gap between Ashkelon and Gezer then to Yenaom and later Israel.  Israel must have been larger than a small group of nomads to make the list.  If not north to Israel from Yanoam then the army(ies) of Merneptah encountered Israel on the way back to Egypt.  Yenaom is presumed to have been destroyed by Merneptah about the beginning of the Early Iron Age before the advance of the Sea Peoples, and before Israel's conquest against the Philistines.  I have seen Yanoam marked in some atlases as being some ruins found south of the shore of Lake Tiberius near the Jordan River.  It is located there because Yenaom was mentioned on the Beth Shean stele and that area is close to Beth Shean.  The location is guesswork, yet the ruins there were probably occupied in that era.  If my memory serves correct the Seti I Beth Shean stele is in the Rockefeller Museum, Jerusalem. 
           
          My own efforts were merely statements of probability, not of absolute proof.   
           
          David Q. Hall 

          --- On Wed, 6/10/09, frankclancy <clancyfrank@...> wrote:


          From: frankclancy <clancyfrank@...>
          Subject: [ANE-2] Re: Seti I and Yanoam
          To: ANE-2@yahoogroups.com
          Date: Wednesday, June 10, 2009, 12:15 PM








          Dear David - I asked Anson Rainey by e-mail about Yanoam and he insists it was located in the Jordan Valley/Yarmuk River region south of the Sea of Galilee. If he is correct, then "Israel" homeland is west and and slightly south of this location so no adjustment should be made - if "Israel" is located in the Samaria/Shechem region. On the other hand, Nadav Na'aman ("Yenoam" Tel Aviv 4. 1977: 168-177) argued that Yanoam should be located north east of the Sea of Galilee at the edge of the Bashan region. I think Na'aman makes a very good argument. The Seti Beth Shean inscription suggests Pehel and Rehov were located close by and scholars place the location of Pehel at Pella and Rehov just south of Beth Shean at Tel Rehov where Amihai Mazar has been conducting excavations for years. However, there are several locations for Rehov and Pella may be named after a capital city in Macedonia by the Hellenistic inhabitants. When you look at the list of cities by
          Thutmose, the location of Pehel seems to make more sense if it is north of the Sea of Galilee - possibly in the Tel Dan region - and not at Pella. If Hamath was responsible for stirring up problems for Seti, then the region north of the Sea of Galilee makes more sense to me.

          If we look at the Merneptah inscription, and agree with Na'aman about Yanoam, then location of "Israel" is not as fixed as many scholars assume. If we see the inscription as something that runs south to north (despite what most scholars assume or argue), then "Israel" should be located in the region of Yenoam or further north - in other words, north of the Sea of Galilee somewhere - perhaps in the Tel Dan region. This is the problem with many Egyptian inscriptions concerning this region. Scholars too often read into the inscriptions what they want to see.

          Frank Clancy



















          [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
        • Jon Smyth
          Just a sideline to the central topic. Recently I was involved in yet another discussion on the location of Yanoam and it seemed to me Na aman s opinion on the
          Message 4 of 24 , Jun 10, 2009
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            Just a sideline to the central topic.
            Recently I was involved in yet another discussion on the location of
            Yanoam and it seemed to me Na'aman's opinion on the location of Yanoam
            is influenced by the stela portion found at tell esh-Shihab in
            Transjordan.
            Traditionally we are taught that there were two stelae left in this
            region created by Shoshenk, one found at Beth Shean and one found at
            tell esh-Shihab.
            Actually they are both partials, neither being complete (as we know).

            It was brought to my attention that Alan Rowe in his, The Topography
            and History of Beth Shean, 1930, suggested both those partials are
            actually two halves of the same stela. The top section found at tell
            esh-Shihab while the body section remained at Beth Shean.
            If this is true it must surely render Na'aman's theory for the
            location of Yanoam in Transjordan considerably weak?

            As a follow-up, one other member of the list who was in a fortunate
            position to copy, measure and match photo's of both sections, was
            convinced this was indeed the case.

            Anyone in a position to confirm or contest this finding?

            Thankyou, Jon Smyth
            Toronto, CAN.

            --- In ANE-2@yahoogroups.com, "frankclancy" <clancyfrank@...> wrote:
            >On the other hand, Nadav Na'aman ("Yenoam" Tel Aviv 4. 1977: 168-
            >177) argued that Yanoam should be located north east of the Sea of
            >Galilee at the edge of the Bashan region. I think Na'aman makes a
            >very good argument.
          • arenmaeir
            Jon, A stela of Shishak at Beth Shean? Or you sure of this? I don t recall this... I would think you would be refering to Seti I, Rameses II? Also, if I
            Message 5 of 24 , Jun 11, 2009
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              Jon,
              A stela of Shishak at Beth Shean? Or you sure of this? I don't recall this...
              I would think you would be refering to Seti I, Rameses II?

              Also, if I recall, Stefan Wimmer has recently published a short article on and additional Egyptian stela from SE Syria, and mentioned an additional one that just came out. Right now I can't access my bibliography, but it is somewhere out there.

              Aren Maeir
              Still-no-Egyptian-Stelae-at-Gath
            • Paul Ash
              There was a stela of Shishak found at Megiddo.   Paul Ash ... From: arenmaeir Subject: [ANE-2] Re: Yanoam in Transjordan? (was: Seti I
              Message 6 of 24 , Jun 11, 2009
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                There was a stela of Shishak found at Megiddo.
                 
                Paul Ash

                --- On Thu, 6/11/09, arenmaeir <maeira@...> wrote:


                From: arenmaeir <maeira@...>
                Subject: [ANE-2] Re: Yanoam in Transjordan? (was: Seti I and Yanoam)
                To: ANE-2@yahoogroups.com
                Date: Thursday, June 11, 2009, 1:42 PM








                Jon,
                A stela of Shishak at Beth Shean? Or you sure of this? I don't recall this...
                I would think you would be refering to Seti I, Rameses II?

                Also, if I recall, Stefan Wimmer has recently published a short article on and additional Egyptian stela from SE Syria, and mentioned an additional one that just came out. Right now I can't access my bibliography, but it is somewhere out there.

                Aren Maeir
                Still-no-Egyptian- Stelae-at- Gath



















                [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
              • David Hall
                According to a University of Pennsylvania publication, The Topography and History of Beth-Shean, by Alan Rowe, 1930, UPA Press:   There was a Seti I stela
                Message 7 of 24 , Jun 11, 2009
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                  According to a University of Pennsylvania publication, The Topography and History of Beth-Shean, by Alan Rowe, 1930, UPA Press:
                   
                  There was a Seti I stela that was erected in year 1 of Seti I's reign on Tel Beth Shean.  It seemed to refer to the deliverance of the city from invaders who attacked from the east.  Hammath was in league with Pella and they attacked Beth Shean and Rehob.  
                   
                  Seperate armies were sent to Hammath, Beth Shean, and Yenoam and they were overthrown in a day. In this campaign the Egyptians stomped the Kharu (Hurrians) and the chiefs of Retenu.
                   
                  It seems each city might have fallen in a day or the attacks were synchronized to occur on the same day. 
                   
                  There was a partial fragment of a second stela of Seti I found on the tell describing a confrontation with the Hapiru of the Mountain of Jordan, Beth Shean, and Tyr(qel).  The other half may have been found in Jordan.
                   
                  The second stela indicated the Hapiru (Hebrews) might have been Israel crossing from Jordan to try to conquer Beth Shean, but there is nothing in the Biblical accounts about Israel meeting the armies of Seti I. 
                   
                  I wondered if anyone had a more modern translation of Seti I's Karnak inscriptions?  Am not sure if Kitchen translated them or not.
                   
                  David Q. Hall
                   
                   
                   
                   
                   

                  --- On Thu, 6/11/09, arenmaeir <maeira@...> wrote:


                  From: arenmaeir <maeira@...>
                  Subject: [ANE-2] Re: Yanoam in Transjordan? (was: Seti I and Yanoam)
                  To: ANE-2@yahoogroups.com
                  Date: Thursday, June 11, 2009, 1:42 PM








                  Jon,
                  A stela of Shishak at Beth Shean? Or you sure of this? I don't recall this...
                  I would think you would be refering to Seti I, Rameses II?

                  Also, if I recall, Stefan Wimmer has recently published a short article on and additional Egyptian stela from SE Syria, and mentioned an additional one that just came out. Right now I can't access my bibliography, but it is somewhere out there.

                  Aren Maeir
                  Still-no-Egyptian- Stelae-at- Gath



















                  [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                • Miller, Robert
                  There is a Seti I stele from Beth Shean (stele #12). It mentions Rehov on line 10, and a Khamath, too, which has to be identified with Tell el-Hamme excavated
                  Message 8 of 24 , Jun 11, 2009
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                    There is a Seti I stele from Beth Shean (stele #12). It mentions Rehov
                    on line 10, and a Khamath, too, which has to be identified with Tell
                    el-Hamme excavated by Lisa Cahill in the 1980s (three Iron I strata). It
                    also appears on Seti I Karnak XII.50, Seti I Karnak XIV.52(55), Seti I
                    el-Qurne North and South Sphinxes #14, and Rameses II Karnak #27.

                    Bob Miller
                    Catholic University


                    [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                  • Deane Galbraith
                    ... Deane: In that article, doesn t Na aman contend that Yano am is probably *south* east of the Sea of Galilee? Tell esh-Shihab, situation west of Edrei on
                    Message 9 of 24 , Jun 11, 2009
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                      > Frank Clancy wrote:
                      > I asked Anson Rainey by e-mail about Yanoam and he insists it was located in the Jordan Valley/Yarmuk River region south of the Sea of Galilee. If he is correct, then "Israel" homeland is west and and slightly south of this location so no adjustment should be made - if "Israel" is located in the Samaria/Shechem region. On the other hand, Nadav Na'aman ("Yenoam" Tel Aviv 4. 1977: 168-177) argued that Yanoam should be located north east of the Sea of Galilee at the edge of the Bashan region.

                      Deane:
                      In that article, doesn't Na'aman contend that Yano'am is probably *south* east of the Sea of Galilee? "Tell esh-Shihab, situation west of Edrei on the Yarmuk River"

                      > Frank Clancy wrote:
                      > If Hamath was responsible for stirring up problems for Seti, then the region north of the Sea of Galilee makes more sense to me.

                      Deane:
                      Why?

                      > Jon Smyth
                      > it seemed to me Na'aman's opinion on the location of Yanoam
                      is influenced by the stela portion found at tell esh-Shihab in
                      Transjordan.

                      Deane:
                      Yes, but to be fair, the main evidence Na'aman adduces is the topographical lists which locate Yeno'am in Bashan or southern Syria. (And there is conflicting evidence on this, as he notes.)

                      Tell esh-Shihab seems to be a little too far away from a plausible site of Yano'am, given the close proximity of Beth-Shean, Rehob, Hammath, and Pehel in the Beth-Shean/Jordan valley, as per the Beth-shean stele. Is it even within a day's journey and military engagement, as the Beth-shean stele requires?

                      As for the Merneptah Stele, if Yano'am is closer to Beth-shean than Tell esh-Shihab, then the Cisjordan highland is as likely as the Transjordan for locating 'Israel'.

                      Mind you, if Merneptah went through Megiddo to get to Beth-shean-Yano'am, maybe Ya-si-r-'-l refers to the people of the Jezreel Valley? The towns along there were a recognized group which the determinative could have referred to, don't you think?

                      And how much logical geographical flow can you conclude from the mention of two Philistine towns and one town somewhere in the region of Beth-shean (Yano'am)? Not too much. The Merneptah stele is not helpful for locating 'Israel' when it comes down to it, apart from it being in 'Canaan'.

                      Deane Galbraith,
                      Antipodes
                    • David Hall
                      There is a link in google for a Tell el-Hamme Station in Syria(?).  It is located on a map SE of the Sea of Galilee.  During the early 20th century this
                      Message 10 of 24 , Jun 11, 2009
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                        There is a link in google for a Tell el-Hamme Station in Syria(?).  It is located on a map SE of the Sea of Galilee.  During the early 20th century this entire region was part of Syria. After WWI different lines were drawn. The area was served by a railway during those days, as I have read numerous early travelogues about this region.  
                         
                        http://www.traveljournals.net/explore/syria/map/m3491706/el_hamme_station.html

                        On a different map Tell el-Hamme it was shown closer to the SE corner of the Sea of Galilee north of the Yarmak River.

                        It seems to me Breasted may have mistakenly read (Tyr...) as Tyre instead of Tyrqel. Tyrqel is listed in the Anastasi Papyrus during Ramesses II's reign. One scribe asked another if he knew the significance of Tyrqel and Beth Shean as he tried to shame the other scribe about his lack of knowledge.

                        Thanks for the help. I can now more easily see that Israel was most likely in the hill country of Israel and/or Jordan during Merneptah's time shortly before 1200. The name Israel was used with a heiroglyphic determinative to describe a people rather than an indivudual city.

                        David Q Hall   

                        --- On Thu, 6/11/09, Miller, Robert <millerb@...> wrote:


                        From: Miller, Robert <millerb@...>
                        Subject: RE: [ANE-2] Re: Yanoam in Transjordan? (was: Seti I and Yanoam)
                        To: ANE-2@yahoogroups.com
                        Date: Thursday, June 11, 2009, 3:10 PM








                        There is a Seti I stele from Beth Shean (stele #12). It mentions Rehov
                        on line 10, and a Khamath, too, which has to be identified with Tell
                        el-Hamme excavated by Lisa Cahill in the 1980s (three Iron I strata). It
                        also appears on Seti I Karnak XII.50, Seti I Karnak XIV.52(55), Seti I
                        el-Qurne North and South Sphinxes #14, and Rameses II Karnak #27.

                        Bob Miller
                        Catholic University

                        [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                      • Jon Smyth
                        My sincere oppologies for that momentary lapse. As some have deduced I meant Stela of Seti I . Perhaps, as David Hall seems to have access to Rowe s book,
                        Message 11 of 24 , Jun 11, 2009
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                          My sincere oppologies for that momentary lapse. As some have deduced
                          I meant "Stela of Seti I".
                          Perhaps, as David Hall seems to have access to Rowe's book, could
                          David possibly check page 30?
                          Rowe's suggestion that the tell esh-Shihab portion was the missing
                          top for the remains of the Beth Shean stela, was said to be on page
                          30.

                          Many thanks, Jon Smyth
                          Toronto, CAN.

                          --- In ANE-2@yahoogroups.com, "arenmaeir" <maeira@...> wrote:
                          >
                          > Jon,
                          > A stela of Shishak at Beth Shean? Or you sure of this? I don't
                          recall this...
                          > I would think you would be refering to Seti I, Rameses II?
                          >
                          > Also, if I recall, Stefan Wimmer has recently published a short
                          article on and additional Egyptian stela from SE Syria, and mentioned
                          an additional one that just came out. Right now I can't access my
                          bibliography, but it is somewhere out there.
                          >
                          > Aren Maeir
                          > Still-no-Egyptian-Stelae-at-Gath
                          >
                        • frankclancy
                          Dear David - Hammath was allied with Pehel and the identification of this name with the known city name of Pella is a question mark - in my opinion. Despite
                          Message 12 of 24 , Jun 11, 2009
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                            Dear David - Hammath was allied with Pehel and the identification of this name with the known city name of Pella is a question mark - in my opinion. Despite the claims of so any scholars, I suggest the city Pella was named after the Macedonian city called Pella and should not be associated with Pehel in the Egyptian texts. I believe Pehel was located north of the Sea of Galilee. I just wish we would not confuse the two names until we have further evidence.

                            Frank Clancy



                            >Hammath was in league with Pella and they attacked Beth Shean >and Rehob.  
                            >  
                            > Seperate armies were sent to Hammath, Beth Shean, and Yenoam and they were overthrown in a day. In this campaign the Egyptians stomped the Kharu (Hurrians) and the chiefs of Retenu.
                            >  
                            > David Q. Hall
                            >  
                          • frankclancy
                            Dear Deane - the question about the Seti inscription is where were these cities? Hammath, as a major centre, was located to the north of the Sea of Galilee.
                            Message 13 of 24 , Jun 11, 2009
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                              Dear Deane - the question about the Seti inscription is where were these cities? Hammath, as a major centre, was located to the north of the Sea of Galilee. If Na'aman is correct, then Yenoam was located somewhere in the Bashan region - north east of the Sea. The next questions are where was Pehel and where was Rehob? Scholars assume Pehel was Pella and Rehob was Tel Rehov just a couple of miles south of Beth-shean. However, I think that question should be open to discussion. When you look at the Thutmose list of cities, there seems to be a line of cities running south past Dan, Hazor and to Chinnereth. Then the list seems to divide into two roads - one running along ghte northern side of the Jezreel Valley and another running along the southern edge of the same valley and both end at Megiddo. There is one name that seems to be out of place - Pehel. In the list, it is placed just before Chinnereth. If it refers to Pella, then that is an odd place to find that name. The way the list of names runs north to south along an important ancient road, Pehel should be north of the Sea of Galilee somewhere. As for the name Rehob, we have any number of places with this name - including one in the region north of the Sea of Galilee. If we assume that Hammath simply wanted to control the territory around the city and along the trade routes, then the Hazor/Dan region would be a very good area to control and to support. Cities south of Beth-shean and at Pella are too far south to provide good military and other support. In addition, the wings of Seti's army could easily reach and control this region and his military might would not be so divided if all the wings were operating in the same region - north of the Sea.

                              I hope that explains my position a little better. Frank Clancy
                            • Brian Yare
                              Jon Rowe wrote: If we may rely on the photographic evidence, the top of this stela is perhaps none other than the part of the stela of Seti I found at Tell
                              Message 14 of 24 , Jun 11, 2009
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                                Jon

                                Rowe wrote: "If we may rely on the photographic evidence, the top of this
                                stela is perhaps none other than
                                the part of the stela of Seti I found at Tell esh-Shihab in Transjordan,-
                                cf. Vincent,
                                Canaan d'apres l'exploration recente, p. 452, fig. 304."

                                As you say, this is only a suggestion.


                                Brian Yare
                                Yare Egyptology
                                http://www.yare.org.uk

                                > Jon Smyth
                                > My sincere oppologies for that momentary lapse. As some have deduced I
                                > meant "Stela of Seti I".
                                > Perhaps, as David Hall seems to have access to Rowe's book, could David
                                > possibly check page 30?
                                > Rowe's suggestion that the tell esh-Shihab portion was the missing top
                                > for the remains of the Beth Shean stela, was said to be on page 30.
                                >
                                > Many thanks, Jon Smyth
                                > Toronto, CAN.
                                >
                              • arenmaeir
                                Frank, On what basis is your suggestion that Pehel is north of the Sea of Galilee? And what site would fit in with that? Although there is no direct
                                Message 15 of 24 , Jun 12, 2009
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                                  Frank,
                                  On what basis is your suggestion that Pehel is north of the Sea of Galilee? And what site would fit in with that? Although there is no direct inscriptional evidence to the ID of early "Pihilum" at Kh. Fahl, the very similar Arabic toponym and the archaeological finds from the MB, LB and Iron Age (including the Akkadian inscriptions from the site and the rich imports from many periods), all dovetail perfectly with the ID of this site as Pihilum/Pella - both during the Bronze and Iron Ages and again in the Classical periods.
                                  To this one can add that the two Amarna texts from Pehel which were examined by Goren et al. appear to be of Central Jordan Valley origin (and not N. Jordan Valley!).
                                  Unless I am missing something quite blatant, I really don't understand your suggestion!

                                  Aren Maeir
                                • David Hall
                                  Rowe did describe the likelihood part of a stela found at Tell esh-Shihab in Transjordan might match the part of a Seti I stela found at Beth Shean on pg. 30
                                  Message 16 of 24 , Jun 12, 2009
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                                    Rowe did describe the likelihood part of a stela found at Tell esh-Shihab in Transjordan might match the part of a Seti I stela found at Beth Shean on pg. 30 after Vincent, Canaan d'Apres l'exploration recente, p 452 fig. 304 (photo).
                                     
                                    David Q. Hall

                                    --- On Thu, 6/11/09, Jon Smyth <driver40386@...> wrote:


                                    From: Jon Smyth <driver40386@...>
                                    Subject: [ANE-2] Re: Yanoam in Transjordan? (was: Seti I and Yanoam)
                                    To: ANE-2@yahoogroups.com
                                    Date: Thursday, June 11, 2009, 9:03 PM








                                    My sincere oppologies for that momentary lapse. As some have deduced
                                    I meant "Stela of Seti I".
                                    Perhaps, as David Hall seems to have access to Rowe's book, could
                                    David possibly check page 30?
                                    Rowe's suggestion that the tell esh-Shihab portion was the missing
                                    top for the remains of the Beth Shean stela, was said to be on page
                                    30.

                                    Many thanks, Jon Smyth
                                    Toronto, CAN.

                                    --- In ANE-2@yahoogroups. com, "arenmaeir" <maeira@...> wrote:
                                    >
                                    > Jon,
                                    > A stela of Shishak at Beth Shean? Or you sure of this? I don't
                                    recall this...
                                    > I would think you would be refering to Seti I, Rameses II?
                                    >
                                    > Also, if I recall, Stefan Wimmer has recently published a short
                                    article on and additional Egyptian stela from SE Syria, and mentioned
                                    an additional one that just came out. Right now I can't access my
                                    bibliography, but it is somewhere out there.
                                    >
                                    > Aren Maeir
                                    > Still-no-Egyptian- Stelae-at- Gath
                                    >
                                  • Miller, Robert
                                    You need to have good arguments to dismiss Tell el-Hamma as Hamath. The Tell el-Hamath excavated by Cahill is SW of Beth Shean, a good deal closer to Tel Rehov
                                    Message 17 of 24 , Jun 12, 2009
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                                      You need to have good arguments to dismiss Tell el-Hamma as Hamath. The Tell el-Hamath excavated by Cahill is SW of Beth Shean, a good deal closer to Tel Rehov than any of the other Hamaths. Is there reason to believe the Hamath of the B.S. Seti I stele is other than the Hamath of the other Seti I inscriptions? If not, then we have to take account of the location of Hamath on those inscriptions, as well. Tell el-Hamath fits all of them quite well. Check out the following:

                                      Cahill, J. M., Lipton (Lipovich), G., and Tarler, D., 1988. Tell el-Hammah. IEJ 38:191-94.
                                      Cahill, J. M., Tarler, D., and Lipton (Lipovich), G., 1989a. Tell el-Hammah. ESI 9:134-35.
                                      ----------, 1989b. Tell el-Hammeh in the 10th Century BCE. Qadmoniot 22:33-38.

                                      Bob Miller
                                      Catholic University





                                      From: Deane Galbraith
                                      Sent: Thu 6/11/2009 6:41 PM
                                      To: ANE-2@yahoogroups.com
                                      Subject: RE: [ANE-2] Re: Yanoam in Transjordan? (was: Seti I and Yanoam)






                                      > Frank Clancy wrote:
                                      > I asked Anson Rainey by e-mail about Yanoam and he insists it was located in the Jordan Valley/Yarmuk River region south of the Sea of Galilee. If he is correct, then "Israel" homeland is west and and slightly south of this location so no adjustment should be made - if "Israel" is located in the Samaria/Shechem region. On the other hand, Nadav Na'aman ("Yenoam" Tel Aviv 4. 1977: 168-177) argued that Yanoam should be located north east of the Sea of Galilee at the edge of the Bashan region.

                                      Deane:
                                      In that article, doesn't Na'aman contend that Yano'am is probably *south* east of the Sea of Galilee? "Tell esh-Shihab, situation west of Edrei on the Yarmuk River"

                                      > Frank Clancy wrote:
                                      > If Hamath was responsible for stirring up problems for Seti, then the region north of the Sea of Galilee makes more sense to me.

                                      Deane:
                                      Why?

                                      > Jon Smyth
                                      > it seemed to me Na'aman's opinion on the location of Yanoam
                                      is influenced by the stela portion found at tell esh-Shihab in
                                      Transjordan.

                                      Deane:
                                      Yes, but to be fair, the main evidence Na'aman adduces is the topographical lists which locate Yeno'am in Bashan or southern Syria. (And there is conflicting evidence on this, as he notes.)

                                      Tell esh-Shihab seems to be a little too far away from a plausible site of Yano'am, given the close proximity of Beth-Shean, Rehob, Hammath, and Pehel in the Beth-Shean/Jordan valley, as per the Beth-shean stele. Is it even within a day's journey and military engagement, as the Beth-shean stele requires?

                                      As for the Merneptah Stele, if Yano'am is closer to Beth-shean than Tell esh-Shihab, then the Cisjordan highland is as likely as the Transjordan for locating 'Israel'.

                                      Mind you, if Merneptah went through Megiddo to get to Beth-shean-Yano'am, maybe Ya-si-r-'-l refers to the people of the Jezreel Valley? The towns along there were a recognized group which the determinative could have referred to, don't you think?

                                      And how much logical geographical flow can you conclude from the mention of two Philistine towns and one town somewhere in the region of Beth-shean (Yano'am)? Not too much. The Merneptah stele is not helpful for locating 'Israel' when it comes down to it, apart from it being in 'Canaan'.

                                      Deane Galbraith,
                                      Antipodes





                                      [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                                    • frankclancy
                                      Dear Aren - I missed that analysis by Goren et al and I shall have to look at it. It has been about 10 years since I looked at the question. The name kh.
                                      Message 18 of 24 , Jun 12, 2009
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                                        Dear Aren - I missed that analysis by Goren et al and I shall have to look at it. It has been about 10 years since I looked at the question. The name kh. Fahl certainly reflects the name "Pella" but, if I remember correctly, one of the archaeologists - perhaps McNichol but I cannot say for certain- suggested it may the site of Jabesh-Gilead. Pella certainly was an important Bronze age site - particularly in the MB period. Also, there was a Rehov just across the way. When I was at Tel Rehov, I could see the area where Pella was located just across the Jordan River very easily. I will have to find that Goren article. Would you please give me the details. Thanks.

                                        Frank Clancy
                                      • arenmaeir
                                        Frank, Rehov is not suitable for the ID, since there is virtually no MB on the site after more than a decade of excavation. Jabesh Gilead should be situated in
                                        Message 19 of 24 , Jun 12, 2009
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                                          Frank,
                                          Rehov is not suitable for the ID, since there is virtually no MB on the site after more than a decade of excavation.
                                          Jabesh Gilead should be situated in the highlands, not in the valley, at the top of W. Yabis!
                                          Goren et al is the volume on the petrography of the Amarna texts.

                                          Best,
                                          Aren
                                        • arenmaeir
                                          For the most updated report and extensive on the excavations of Tell el-Hammah, see: Cahill, J. 2006. The Excavations at Tell el-Hammah: A Prelude to Amihai
                                          Message 20 of 24 , Jun 12, 2009
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                                            For the most updated report and extensive on the excavations of Tell el-Hammah, see:

                                            Cahill, J. 2006. The Excavations at Tell el-Hammah: A Prelude to Amihai Mazar's Beth-Shean Valley Regional Project. Pp. 429–60 in "I Will Speak the Riddles of Ancient Times": Archaeological and Historical Studies in Honor of Amihai Mazar on the Occasion of His Sixtieth Birthday, eds. A. Maeir and P. de Miroschedji. Winona Lake, IN: Eisenbrauns.


                                            Aren Maeir
                                          • Deane Galbraith
                                            Dear Frank, Thank you for your fuller explanation. It seems to me that the only weakness in the identification of Pehel as Pella which you identify is that it
                                            Message 21 of 24 , Jun 14, 2009
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                                              Dear Frank,

                                              Thank you for your fuller explanation. It seems to me that the only weakness in the identification of Pehel as Pella which you identify is that it is included in an odd place in the Thutmose list. (Yet, is the list in strict geographical progression, anyway?) But the great strength of the identiication is that Pehel appears together with Beth-Shean, Rehob and Yanoam on a few lists (including one from Beth-Shean itself) - the conjunction of which provides fairly strong evidence for placing them in the area of Beth-Shean, south of the Sea of Galilee. So unless some very strong evidence for placing these place-names to the north of the Sea of Galilee is provided, I don't see any good reason for accepting such a suggestion.

                                              When you refer to Hammath as the "major centre", you don't mean Hammath which is to the north of Qedesh, or what site?

                                              Na'aman ("Yeno'am." Tel Aviv 4 (1977): 168-177) doesn't place Yanoam north of the Sea of Galilee, but south, on the Yarmuk - that is, on the other side of the Jordan from Beth-Shean.

                                              Deane Galbraith
                                              Antipodes




                                              > Dear Deane - the question about the Seti inscription is where were these cities? Hammath, as a major centre, was located to the north of the Sea of Galilee. If Na'aman is correct, then Yenoam was located somewhere in the Bashan region - north east of the Sea. The next questions are where was Pehel and where was Rehob? Scholars assume Pehel was Pella and Rehob was Tel Rehov just a couple of miles south of Beth-shean. However, I think that question should be open to discussion. When you look at the Thutmose list of cities, there seems to be a line of cities running south past Dan, Hazor and to Chinnereth. Then the list seems to divide into two roads - one running along ghte northern side of the Jezreel Valley and another running along the southern edge of the same valley and both end at Megiddo. There is one name that seems to be out of place - Pehel. In the list, it is placed just before Chinnereth. If it refers to Pella, then that is an odd place to
                                              find that name. The way the list of names runs north to south along an important ancient road, Pehel should be north of the Sea of Galilee somewhere. As for the name Rehob, we have any number of places with this name - including one in the region north of the Sea of Galilee. If we assume that Hammath simply wanted to control the territory around the city and along the trade routes, then the Hazor/Dan region would be a very good area to control and to support. Cities south of Beth-shean and at Pella are too far south to provide good military and other support. In addition, the wings of Seti's army could easily reach and control this region and his military might would not be so divided if all the wings were operating in the same region - north of the Sea.

                                              > I hope that explains my position a little better. Frank Clancy
                                            • eliot braun
                                              Has anyone considered the small size of Tell el Hamath as an impediment to the identification of the site? I always wondered about that myself. Eliot Braun, Ph
                                              Message 22 of 24 , Jun 16, 2009
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                                                Has anyone considered the small size of Tell el Hamath as an impediment to the identification of the site? I always wondered about that myself.

                                                Eliot Braun, Ph D
                                                Sr. Fellow WF Albright Institute of Archaeological Research, Jerusalem
                                                Associate Researcher Centre de Recherche Français de Jérusalem
                                                PO Box 21, Har Adar 90836 Israel
                                                Tel 972-2-5345687, Cell 972-50-2231096

                                                --- On Fri, 6/12/09, Miller, Robert <millerb@...> wrote:


                                                From: Miller, Robert <millerb@...>
                                                Subject: [ANE-2] Yanoam in Transjordan? (was: Seti I and Yanoam)
                                                To: ANE-2@yahoogroups.com
                                                Date: Friday, June 12, 2009, 3:11 PM








                                                You need to have good arguments to dismiss Tell el-Hamma as Hamath. The Tell el-Hamath excavated by Cahill is SW of Beth Shean, a good deal closer to Tel Rehov than any of the other Hamaths. Is there reason to believe the Hamath of the B.S. Seti I stele is other than the Hamath of the other Seti I inscriptions? If not, then we have to take account of the location of Hamath on those inscriptions, as well. Tell el-Hamath fits all of them quite well. Check out the following:

                                                Cahill, J. M., Lipton (Lipovich), G., and Tarler, D., 1988. Tell el-Hammah. IEJ 38:191-94.
                                                Cahill, J. M., Tarler, D., and Lipton (Lipovich), G., 1989a. Tell el-Hammah. ESI 9:134-35.
                                                ----------, 1989b. Tell el-Hammeh in the 10th Century BCE. Qadmoniot 22:33-38.

                                                Bob Miller
                                                Catholic University

                                                From: Deane Galbraith
                                                Sent: Thu 6/11/2009 6:41 PM
                                                To: ANE-2@yahoogroups. com
                                                Subject: RE: [ANE-2] Re: Yanoam in Transjordan? (was: Seti I and Yanoam)

                                                > Frank Clancy wrote:
                                                > I asked Anson Rainey by e-mail about Yanoam and he insists it was located in the Jordan Valley/Yarmuk River region south of the Sea of Galilee. If he is correct, then "Israel" homeland is west and and slightly south of this location so no adjustment should be made - if "Israel" is located in the Samaria/Shechem region. On the other hand, Nadav Na'aman ("Yenoam" Tel Aviv 4. 1977: 168-177) argued that Yanoam should be located north east of the Sea of Galilee at the edge of the Bashan region.

                                                Deane:
                                                In that article, doesn't Na'aman contend that Yano'am is probably *south* east of the Sea of Galilee? "Tell esh-Shihab, situation west of Edrei on the Yarmuk River"

                                                > Frank Clancy wrote:
                                                > If Hamath was responsible for stirring up problems for Seti, then the region north of the Sea of Galilee makes more sense to me.

                                                Deane:
                                                Why?

                                                > Jon Smyth
                                                > it seemed to me Na'aman's opinion on the location of Yanoam
                                                is influenced by the stela portion found at tell esh-Shihab in
                                                Transjordan.

                                                Deane:
                                                Yes, but to be fair, the main evidence Na'aman adduces is the topographical lists which locate Yeno'am in Bashan or southern Syria. (And there is conflicting evidence on this, as he notes.)

                                                Tell esh-Shihab seems to be a little too far away from a plausible site of Yano'am, given the close proximity of Beth-Shean, Rehob, Hammath, and Pehel in the Beth-Shean/Jordan valley, as per the Beth-shean stele. Is it even within a day's journey and military engagement, as the Beth-shean stele requires?

                                                As for the Merneptah Stele, if Yano'am is closer to Beth-shean than Tell esh-Shihab, then the Cisjordan highland is as likely as the Transjordan for locating 'Israel'.

                                                Mind you, if Merneptah went through Megiddo to get to Beth-shean-Yano' am, maybe Ya-si-r-'-l refers to the people of the Jezreel Valley? The towns along there were a recognized group which the determinative could have referred to, don't you think?

                                                And how much logical geographical flow can you conclude from the mention of two Philistine towns and one town somewhere in the region of Beth-shean (Yano'am)? Not too much. The Merneptah stele is not helpful for locating 'Israel' when it comes down to it, apart from it being in 'Canaan'.

                                                Deane Galbraith,
                                                Antipodes

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                                                [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                                              • stefanjakobwimmer
                                                ... On the article Aren mentioned, see ANE2 Message # 10517. The article is online as pdf: http://www.stefan-jakob-wimmer.de/3ICAANE_wimmer.pdf (I suggested
                                                Message 23 of 24 , Jun 23, 2009
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                                                  >
                                                  > Also, if I recall, Stefan Wimmer has recently published a short article on and additional Egyptian stela from SE Syria, and mentioned an additional one that just came out. Right now I can't access my bibliography, but it is somewhere out there.
                                                  >
                                                  > Aren Maeir
                                                  > Still-no-Egyptian-Stelae-at-Gath
                                                  >


                                                  On the article Aren mentioned, see ANE2 Message # 10517.
                                                  The article is online as pdf:
                                                  http://www.stefan-jakob-wimmer.de/3ICAANE_wimmer.pdf
                                                  (I suggested there that the newly found stela from at-Turra, near Tell esh-Shihab, might strengthen the latter's option for being identified with Yenoam.)

                                                  In the postscriptum to this article I announced that I would prepare a note on an even newer Ramesside inscription from near Damascus. Upon request by the Director of Antiquities and Museums of Syria, I have withdrawn that paper from the upcoming issue of "Goettinger Miszellen", pending the publication of the new inscription. (I do hope, though, that my draft has reached the person entrusted with the publication - I sent it to Director Dr. Bassam Jamous - and that it might prove useful to her/him.)

                                                  Stefan Wimmer
                                                  University of Munich
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