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RE: [ANE-2] molten sea and apsu

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  • Trudy Kawami
    Water does play an important role in Mesopotamian imagery, but off hand I can t think of any excavated temple with a gigantic basin. The closest I can come is
    Message 1 of 10 , May 21 8:31 AM
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      Water does play an important role in Mesopotamian imagery, but off hand I can't think of any excavated temple with a gigantic basin. The closest I can come is the façade of the Karaindash-bulit temple at Uruk in the Kassite period. See http://culturalheritage.state.gov/iraq/fi/00000055.htm

      Did your source(s) give any further information or example?

      Trudy Kawami



      ________________________________

      From: ANE-2@yahoogroups.com [mailto:ANE-2@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of Carla Sulzbach
      Sent: Wednesday, May 20, 2009 5:48 PM
      To: ANE-2@yahoogroups.com
      Subject: [ANE-2] molten sea and apsu








      Dear list experts,

      It has been suggested by some scholars that the "molten sea" described in I Kings 7:23-26 bears a connection with the concept of apsu, the primeval ocean of Mesopotamian lore. Moreover, it is claimed that a similar gigantic basin was to be found as part of the appurtenances of Mesopotamian temples. Is this so and, if so, are there any specific studies or primary references to support this?

      Thanking you for your input,

      Carla Sulzbach
      McGill University





      [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
    • George F Somsel
      According to an old tongue-in-cheek definition I once heard an ex is a has-been and a spurt is a drip under pressure so I guess that qualifies me.  One
      Message 2 of 10 , May 21 9:27 AM
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        According to an old tongue-in-cheek definition I once heard an "ex" is a has-been and a "spurt" is a drip under pressure so I guess that qualifies me.  One thing which has largely been overlooked in the commentaries is the throne room vision in Revelation 4.  There mention is made of a "sea of crystal" as well as a rainbow forming a kind of nimbus about "the one seated on the throne."  While the Greek word ἶρις IRIS is used rather than τόξον TOCON which the LXX uses for the bow in the Flood narrative, I would contend that this is due to the use of τόξον TOCON to describe the weapon of the 1st of the 4 horsemen in chapter 6.  The passage would thus give an deluvian setting to the scene.  In the Flood narrative it speaks of the "windows of heaven" being opened so that the waters which are above the רָקִיעַ RfQiYa( which is created in Gen 1 to divide the waters above the רָקִיעַ RfQia( from those below.  This
        firmament is conceived as an inverted beaten metal bowl.  The waters which are divided by this are the primieval ocean (APSU).

         
        (1) When on high no name was given to heaven,
        Nor below was the netherworld called by name,
        Primeval Apsu was their progenitor,
        And matrix–Tiamat was she who bore them all,
        (5) They were mingling their waters together,
        No cane brake was intertwined nor thicket matted close.
         
        Hallo, W. W., & Younger, K. L. (1997). The context of Scripture (391). Leiden; New York: Brill.
         george
        gfsomsel


        … search for truth, hear truth,
        learn truth, love truth, speak the truth, hold the truth,
        defend the truth till death.


        - Jan Hus
        _________




        ________________________________
        From: Carla Sulzbach <cjsulz@...>
        To: ANE-2@yahoogroups.com
        Sent: Wednesday, May 20, 2009 2:47:53 PM
        Subject: [ANE-2] molten sea and apsu





        Dear list experts,

        It has been suggested by some scholars that the "molten sea" described in I Kings 7:23-26 bears a connection with the concept of apsu, the primeval ocean of Mesopotamian lore. Moreover, it is claimed that a similar gigantic basin was to be found as part of the appurtenances of Mesopotamian temples. Is this so and, if so, are there any specific studies or primary references to support this?

        Thanking you for your input,

        Carla Sulzbach
        McGill University







        [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
      • Lampros F. Kallenos
        There was a great stone cistern on the acropolis of Amathus, in Kypros. It measured 1,85 metres in height and 24 tons in weight, made from a single limestone.
        Message 3 of 10 , May 21 3:41 PM
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          There was a great stone cistern on the acropolis of
          Amathus, in Kypros. It measured 1,85 metres in height
          and 24 tons in weight, made from a single limestone.
          It has been usurped to the Louvre since 1867.

          A photograph I had of it was lost in the last Great
          Computer Dilluge. As I was looking for another, I came
          across this:


          "...In any case, the Solomonic "bronze sea" and the
          Amathus basin in the Musee du Louvre must be related to
          the fertility cult, as strongly suggested by the..."

          Anthony BONANNO,
          Archaeology and fertility cult in the ancient
          Mediterranean: papers presented at the First
          International Conference on Archaeology of the Ancient
          Mediterranean, the University of Malta, 2-5 September 1985
          illustrated edition
          John Benjamins Publishing Company, 1986
          ISBN 9060322886, 9789060322888
          356 pp.

          http://books.google.com/books?id=uuKfXsvfr2YC&pg=PA209&lpg=PA209&dq=amathus+large+vessel&source=bl&ots=4zmH3GQUAT&sig=yu016IBh_FXIwx9XJmH5SAi3Cjs&hl=el&ei=PcIVSoHHENKhjAeo7OT0DA&sa=X&oi=book_result&ct=result&resnum=2

          http://tinyurl.com/ouep2p


          So, my memory's association of the Amathus cistern with
          the molten sea of the temple shouldn't be very arbitrary.


          _______________________
          Lampros F. Kallenos
          Idalion, Lefkosia
          Kypros
        • victor avigdor hurowitz
          If you have a look at CAD s.v. apsu you will find that the third definition is water basin in a temple . There is also an article in the end notes by Burrows,
          Message 4 of 10 , May 21 8:14 PM
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            If you have a look at CAD s.v. apsu you will find that the third
            definition is "water basin in a temple". There is also an article in the
            end notes by Burrows, Orientalia n.s. 1 which if I recall properly
            discusses this. Unfortunately the texts are very few. In the
            archaeological record, there is a basin found at Assur which was
            reconstructed and is in the Berlin Museum which is sqare basin with
            apkallu figures at the four corners and the middle of each side. They are
            holding jugs with water flowing out of them. I would call this an abzu and
            have compared it with Solomon's Yam in some of my discussions of Solomon's
            temple. I think it is also discussed in Zweickel's book on Solomon's
            Temple. Have a look at V. A. Hurowitz, "YHWH's Exalted House - Aspects of
            the Design and Symbolism of Solomon's Temple" in J. Day (ed.) Temple and
            Worship in Biblical Israel (Sheffield 2005) pp. 63-110 esp. 78-81 for
            this, other parallels, and the mythological background of the
            symbolism.
            Victor Hurowitz
            BGU



            On Wed, 20 May 2009, Carla Sulzbach wrote:

            > Dear list experts,
            >
            > It has been suggested by some scholars that the "molten sea" described in I Kings 7:23-26 bears a connection with the concept of apsu, the primeval ocean of Mesopotamian lore. Moreover, it is claimed that a similar gigantic basin was to be found as part of the appurtenances of Mesopotamian temples. Is this so and, if so, are there any specific studies or primary references to support this?
            >
            > Thanking you for your input,
            >
            > Carla Sulzbach
            > McGill University
            >
            >
          • Trudy Kawami
            Thank you, Victor. I had totally forgotten Sennacherib s big stone pond. It is a fascinating sculpture, and a bit eccentric as much of Sennacherib s art
            Message 5 of 10 , May 22 11:10 AM
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              Thank you, Victor. I had totally forgotten Sennacherib's big stone
              "pond." It is a fascinating sculpture, and a bit eccentric as much of
              Sennacherib's art was. I guess it goes to show how some words carry
              unintended meaning. I had always considered basins, even big ones, as
              roundish vessels, but that clearly is not the only meaning.

              Trudy Kawami

              ________________________________

              From: ANE-2@yahoogroups.com [mailto:ANE-2@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of
              victor avigdor hurowitz
              Sent: Thursday, May 21, 2009 11:14 PM
              To: ANE-2@yahoogroups.com
              Subject: Re: [ANE-2] molten sea and apsu








              If you have a look at CAD s.v. apsu you will find that the third
              definition is "water basin in a temple". There is also an article in the
              end notes by Burrows, Orientalia n.s. 1 which if I recall properly
              discusses this. Unfortunately the texts are very few. In the
              archaeological record, there is a basin found at Assur which was
              reconstructed and is in the Berlin Museum which is sqare basin with
              apkallu figures at the four corners and the middle of each side. They
              are
              holding jugs with water flowing out of them. I would call this an abzu
              and
              have compared it with Solomon's Yam in some of my discussions of
              Solomon's
              temple. I think it is also discussed in Zweickel's book on Solomon's
              Temple. Have a look at V. A. Hurowitz, "YHWH's Exalted House - Aspects
              of
              the Design and Symbolism of Solomon's Temple" in J. Day (ed.) Temple and
              Worship in Biblical Israel (Sheffield 2005) pp. 63-110 esp. 78-81 for
              this, other parallels, and the mythological background of the
              symbolism.
              Victor Hurowitz
              BGU




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            • carla sulzbach
              Many thanks to everyone who responded - these are exactly the references I was hoping for! Carla Sulzbach McGill University
              Message 6 of 10 , May 22 3:42 PM
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                Many thanks to everyone who responded - these are exactly the references I was hoping for!



                Carla Sulzbach

                McGill University
              • victor avigdor hurowitz
                Actually, I don t know what the native designation of this basin is. I said that I would call it an abzu and that s because to the clear iconography related
                Message 7 of 10 , May 23 12:17 PM
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                  Actually, I don't know what the native designation of this basin is. I
                  said that "I would call it an abzu" and that's because to the clear
                  iconography related to Enki/Ea. There's an inscription on the basin but
                  it's very poorly
                  preserved. But it is reasonable to assume that it includes the name of the
                  object upon which it is inscribed. My museum catalogue has a nice picture
                  of it and it is clear that the inscription covered the entire
                  object, making it a rather lengthy text. But most of the piece is in fact
                  restored so the signs preserved are only sporadic. The catalogue gives
                  from the inscription only "Sanherib, Konig der Gasamtheit, Konig des
                  Landes Assur..." which isn't very helpful. Maybe if you check Frahm,
                  Sennacherib you can find the text and an attempted reconstruction. Can
                  Robert fill us in on this?
                  Best,
                  victor hurowitz
                  BGU





                  On Fri, 22 May 2009, Trudy Kawami wrote:

                  > Thank you, Victor. I had totally forgotten Sennacherib's big stone
                  > "pond." It is a fascinating sculpture, and a bit eccentric as much of
                  > Sennacherib's art was. I guess it goes to show how some words carry
                  > unintended meaning. I had always considered basins, even big ones, as
                  > roundish vessels, but that clearly is not the only meaning.
                  >
                  > Trudy Kawami
                  >
                  > ________________________________
                  >
                  > From: ANE-2@yahoogroups.com [mailto:ANE-2@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of
                  > victor avigdor hurowitz
                  > Sent: Thursday, May 21, 2009 11:14 PM
                  > To: ANE-2@yahoogroups.com
                  > Subject: Re: [ANE-2] molten sea and apsu
                  >
                  >
                  >
                  >
                  >
                  >
                  >
                  >
                  > If you have a look at CAD s.v. apsu you will find that the third
                  > definition is "water basin in a temple". There is also an article in the
                  > end notes by Burrows, Orientalia n.s. 1 which if I recall properly
                  > discusses this. Unfortunately the texts are very few. In the
                  > archaeological record, there is a basin found at Assur which was
                  > reconstructed and is in the Berlin Museum which is sqare basin with
                  > apkallu figures at the four corners and the middle of each side. They
                  > are
                  > holding jugs with water flowing out of them. I would call this an abzu
                  > and
                  > have compared it with Solomon's Yam in some of my discussions of
                  > Solomon's
                  > temple. I think it is also discussed in Zweickel's book on Solomon's
                  > Temple. Have a look at V. A. Hurowitz, "YHWH's Exalted House - Aspects
                  > of
                  > the Design and Symbolism of Solomon's Temple" in J. Day (ed.) Temple and
                  > Worship in Biblical Israel (Sheffield 2005) pp. 63-110 esp. 78-81 for
                  > this, other parallels, and the mythological background of the
                  > symbolism.
                  > Victor Hurowitz
                  > BGU
                  >
                  >
                  >
                  >
                  > easy 1-click access
                  >
                  > to your groups.
                  >
                  > Yahoo! Groups
                  >
                  > Start a group
                  > <http://groups.yahoo.com/start;_ylc=X3oDMTJwbTNkNTFzBF9TAzk3MzU5NzE0BF9w
                  > AzMEZ3JwSWQDMTcyMzU1MTgEZ3Jwc3BJZAMxNzA1ODQxNDY3BHNlYwNuY21vZARzbGsDZ3Jv
                  > dXBzMgRzdGltZQMxMjQyOTYyMDky>
                  >
                  > in 3 easy steps.
                  >
                  > Connect with others.
                  >
                  > .
                  >
                  >
                  > <http://geo.yahoo.com/serv?s=97359714/grpId=17235518/grpspId=1705841467/
                  > msgId=10678/stime=1242962092/nc1=1/nc2=2/nc3=3>
                  >
                  >
                  >
                  >
                  >
                  > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                  >
                  >
                • victor avigdor hurowitz
                  The Prophet of Consolation The Prophet, His Time, His Book and His Teaching The Hebrew University, Jerusalem The Faculty of Humanities The Mandel Institute for
                  Message 8 of 10 , May 23 11:33 PM
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                    The Prophet of Consolation
                    The Prophet, His Time, His Book and His Teaching

                    The Hebrew University, Jerusalem
                    The Faculty of Humanities
                    The Mandel Institute for Jewish Studies

                    and

                    Yad Ben-Zvi

                    Invite you to an Evening of Study

                    Marking the Publication of

                    Shalom Paul
                    Isaiah 40-66
                    Miqra Le-Yisrael Commentary Series


                    Program

                    Professor Sarah Japhet, The Hebrew University, Jerusalem, Chair

                    Professor Shmuel Ahituv, Ben-Gurion University of the Negev, Series Editor
                    The Miqra Le-Yisrael Commentary Series

                    Professor Yair Hoffmann, Tel-Aviv University
                    Second or Third Isaiah?

                    Dr. Hagit Taragan, Ben-Gurion University of the Negev
                    Rhetorical and Stylistic Aspects in Shalom Pauls Commentary to Isaiah
                    40-66

                    Professor Rimon Kasher, Bar-Ilan University
                    Second Isaiah Methodological Aspects

                    Professor Shalom Paul, The Hebrew University, Jerusalem
                    Response

                    Monday, 16 Sivan, 5769
                    8 June, 2009
                    19:30 PM

                    Yad Ben-Zvi
                    Rehov Abravanel 12
                    Jerusalem
                  • Marc Cooper
                    To add a bit to Victor s Akkadian material, the term Apsu appears four times in Ur III administrative texts to my knowledge. Two references are to the Basin
                    Message 9 of 10 , May 24 7:20 PM
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                      To add a bit to Victor's Akkadian material, the term Apsu appears four times in Ur III administrative texts to my knowledge. Two references are to the "Basin of Enlil and Ninlil" though the texts have little to say about their use. Another mentions sacrifices of several animals at the Apsu of Nanna. The other reference is in Phillips 13. There the Apsu is part of furnishings belonging to the king for a royal drinking party. The tablet gives no hint as to its use, but the reference is at the end of the items belonging to the king, immediately after his table, chair, and bed.

                      Marc Cooper
                      Missouri State University


                      --- In ANE-2@yahoogroups.com, victor avigdor hurowitz <victor@...> wrote:
                      >
                      > If you have a look at CAD s.v. apsu you will find that the third
                      > definition is "water basin in a temple". There is also an article in the
                      > end notes by Burrows, Orientalia n.s. 1 which if I recall properly
                      > discusses this. Unfortunately the texts are very few. In the
                      > archaeological record, there is a basin found at Assur which was
                      > reconstructed and is in the Berlin Museum which is sqare basin with
                      > apkallu figures at the four corners and the middle of each side. They are
                      > holding jugs with water flowing out of them. I would call this an abzu and
                      > have compared it with Solomon's Yam in some of my discussions of Solomon's
                      > temple. I think it is also discussed in Zweickel's book on Solomon's
                      > Temple. Have a look at V. A. Hurowitz, "YHWH's Exalted House - Aspects of
                      > the Design and Symbolism of Solomon's Temple" in J. Day (ed.) Temple and
                      > Worship in Biblical Israel (Sheffield 2005) pp. 63-110 esp. 78-81 for
                      > this, other parallels, and the mythological background of the
                      > symbolism.
                      > Victor Hurowitz
                      > BGU
                      >
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