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is it proper to call the queen of egypt 'pharaoh'?

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  • Jim West
    I seem to vaguely recall that it isn t, but I wonder now because of this report
    Message 1 of 8 , Mar 25, 2009
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      I seem to vaguely recall that it isn't, but I wonder now because of this
      report

      http://news.yahoo.com/s/livescience/20090324/sc_livescience/whatdoesanegyptianpharaohsmelllike

      Thanks, ye learned Egyptologists, for clearing this up for me.


      --
      ++++++

      Jim West
      http://jwest.wordpress.com
    • Lisbeth S. Fried
      My understanding is that Pharaoh just means “big house,” it’s like referring to the president as the “white house.” It should suffice no matter who
      Message 2 of 8 , Mar 25, 2009
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        My understanding is that Pharaoh just means “big house,” it’s like referring
        to the president as the “white house.” It should suffice no matter who
        resides there.

        Liz Fried



        _____

        From: ANE-2@yahoogroups.com [mailto:ANE-2@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of Jim
        West
        Sent: Wednesday, March 25, 2009 7:01 AM
        To: ane-2@yahoogroups.com
        Subject: [ANE-2] is it proper to call the queen of egypt 'pharaoh'?



        I seem to vaguely recall that it isn't, but I wonder now because of this
        report

        http://news.
        <http://news.yahoo.com/s/livescience/20090324/sc_livescience/whatdoesanegypt
        ianpharaohsmelllike>
        yahoo.com/s/livescience/20090324/sc_livescience/whatdoesanegyptianpharaohsme
        lllike

        Thanks, ye learned Egyptologists, for clearing this up for me.

        --
        ++++++

        Jim West
        http://jwest. <http://jwest.wordpress.com> wordpress.com





        [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
      • Jim West
        What happened to little bull as the meaning of the word? ... -- ++++++ Jim West http://jwest.wordpress.com
        Message 3 of 8 , Mar 25, 2009
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          What happened to 'little bull' as the meaning of the word?

          Lisbeth S. Fried wrote:
          >
          >
          > My understanding is that Pharaoh just means “big house,” it’s like referring
          > to the president as the “white house.” It should suffice no matter who
          > resides there.
          >
          > Liz Fried
          --
          ++++++

          Jim West
          http://jwest.wordpress.com
        • Trudy Kawami
          The Egyptian Queen was the principal wife of the Pharaoh, her usual title was, I believe, The God s Wife. There is no Egyptian parallel to the English
          Message 4 of 8 , Mar 25, 2009
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            The Egyptian "Queen" was the principal wife of the Pharaoh, her usual
            title was, I believe, "The God's Wife." There is no Egyptian parallel to
            the English "king" "queen" gender distinction. Hatshepsut was in fact a
            pharaoh. She used that title herself but her formal inscriptions use the
            feminine grammatical forms. According to the Met catalog, "Hatshepsut:
            From Queen to Pharaoh" her name means "Foremost of Noblewomen." Her
            official titles progressed from "King's Daughter," to "King's Sister" to
            King's Great Wife" to "God's Wife to "King" over her career/life.

            Trudy Kawami



            ________________________________

            From: ANE-2@yahoogroups.com [mailto:ANE-2@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of
            Lisbeth S. Fried
            Sent: Wednesday, March 25, 2009 11:03 AM
            To: ANE-2@yahoogroups.com
            Subject: RE: [ANE-2] is it proper to call the queen of egypt 'pharaoh'?



            My understanding is that Pharaoh just means "big house," it's like
            referring
            to the president as the "white house." It should suffice no matter who
            resides there.

            Liz Fried

            _____

            From: ANE-2@yahoogroups.com <mailto:ANE-2%40yahoogroups.com>
            [mailto:ANE-2@yahoogroups.com <mailto:ANE-2%40yahoogroups.com> ] On
            Behalf Of Jim
            West
            Sent: Wednesday, March 25, 2009 7:01 AM
            To: ane-2@yahoogroups.com <mailto:ane-2%40yahoogroups.com>
            Subject: [ANE-2] is it proper to call the queen of egypt 'pharaoh'?

            I seem to vaguely recall that it isn't, but I wonder now because of this

            report

            http://news.
            <http://news.yahoo.com/s/livescience/20090324/sc_livescience/whatdoesane
            gypt
            <http://news.yahoo.com/s/livescience/20090324/sc_livescience/whatdoesane
            gypt>
            ianpharaohsmelllike>
            yahoo.com/s/livescience/20090324/sc_livescience/whatdoesanegyptianpharao
            hsme
            lllike

            Thanks, ye learned Egyptologists, for clearing this up for me.

            --
            ++++++

            Jim West
            http://jwest. <http://jwest.wordpress.com <http://jwest.wordpress.com> >
            wordpress.com

            [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]





            [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
          • Trudy Kawami
            I have never heard that term little bull as the meaning of Pharaoh. Where is it used? You do find the Hittites using the term calf when referring to the
            Message 5 of 8 , Mar 27, 2009
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              I have never heard that term "little bull" as the meaning of Pharaoh.
              Where is it used? You do find the Hittites using the term "calf" when
              referring to the god Sharuma as the son of the weather god who is often
              shown on or with a bull, but Egypt? That's puzzling.
              Trudy Kawami

              -----Original Message-----
              From: ANE-2@yahoogroups.com [mailto:ANE-2@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of
              Jim West
              Sent: Wednesday, March 25, 2009 11:08 AM
              To: ANE-2@yahoogroups.com
              Subject: Re: [ANE-2] is it proper to call the queen of egypt 'pharaoh'?

              What happened to 'little bull' as the meaning of the word?
            • The Society for the Study of Egyptian Ant
              To the best of my knowledge the term pharaoh has never been translated or understood to mean Mighty Bull in reputable sources. I believe there might be a
              Message 6 of 8 , Mar 31, 2009
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                To the best of my knowledge the term pharaoh has never been translated
                or understood to mean "Mighty Bull" in reputable sources. I believe
                there might be a confusion here with with translation of the Horus Name,
                which in the 18th dynasty almost invariably contained this phrase. For
                example, the Horus name of Thutmose III was Mighty-bull-aising-in-Thebes
                , often rendered Ka-nakht-kha-em-waset. The Horus name is the first of
                the 5 names applied to Egyptian kings, and is preceded by either a glyph
                representing Horus as a falcon/hawk, or one showing a falcon on a palace
                facade. Even Akhenaten used this expression in his Horus name, calling
                himself "Mighty-Bull-Beloved-of-Aten"

                It depends on what you mean by "Egyptian queen": If you mean a woman
                who is not ruling Egypt on her own, but is defined
                by her very close relationship to the King (nsw-bity), the Egyptian
                titles translate as "King's Mother" (mwt nsw) or "King's Wife" (Hmt Nsw)
                and variants such as "King's Great (Chief) Wife". If you are referring
                to a royal woman who has assumed all the titles and powers of a
                nsw-bity, then she should technically be referred to as "king", although
                pharaoh will do.

                As another poster pointed out, the term "pharaoh" means "great house".
                It is not used to refer to the King before the New Kingdom, and does not
                take the place of "nsw" in the compound titles. However, the term King
                is not itself a direct translation of nsw-bity. The terms "prince" or
                "princess" also do not exist. Children of the king are called "S3 nsw"
                or "s3t nsw"

                Dr. Lyn Green, SSEA


                --- In ANE-2@yahoogroups.com, Jim West <jwest@...> wrote:
                >
                > What happened to 'little bull' as the meaning of the word?
                >
                > Lisbeth S. Fried wrote:
                > >
                > >
                > > My understanding is that Pharaoh just means "big house,"
                it's like referring
                > > to the president as the "white house." It should suffice no
                matter who
                > > resides there.
                > >
                > > Liz Fried
                > --
                > ++++++
                >
                > Jim West
                > http://jwest.wordpress.com
                >
              • rb47x@AOL.com
                In a message dated 4/1/2009 3:50:10 AM Pacific Daylight Time, ... According to Alan Gardiner (Egyptian Grammar, 1957, p. 75) it is merely uncertain whether or
                Message 7 of 8 , Apr 1, 2009
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                  In a message dated 4/1/2009 3:50:10 AM Pacific Daylight Time,
                  ANE-2@yahoogroups.com writes:

                  > As another poster pointed out, the term "pharaoh" means "great house".
                  > It is not used to refer to the King before the New Kingdom,

                  According to Alan Gardiner (Egyptian Grammar, 1957, p. 75) it is merely
                  uncertain whether or not per-'3 (per-o or Pharaoh) "Great House" (royal palace)
                  referred to the King before the New Kingdom, simply because of ambiguity in the
                  examples of the usage available. He gives a late 12th Dynasty Middle Kingdom
                  example that seems pretty clear despite his expressed uncertainty: "Great
                  House, may it live, prosper, be in health," which can only refer to the Pharaoh
                  living, prospering and being in health, not an inanimate building.

                  Brad C. Sparks
                  Orange County, CA
                • Jon Smyth
                  I don t think such expressions are too far removed from someone in our day toasting to the health and prosperity of the House of Windsor . Per-o just may have
                  Message 8 of 8 , Apr 2, 2009
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                    I don't think such expressions are too far removed from someone in
                    our day toasting to "the health and prosperity of the House of
                    Windsor".
                    Per-o just may have been regarded as a dual euphemism which can, on
                    the one hand specifically refer to the Pharaoh, or in the example
                    you provide, refer to the royal family as a whole.
                    Certainly "Per-o" is gender neutral but it does have uses which are
                    broader than a singular reference to a ruling monarch.

                    Regards, Jon Smyth
                    Toronto, Can.

                    --- In ANE-2@yahoogroups.com, rb47x@... wrote:
                    >
                    > In a message dated 4/1/2009 3:50:10 AM Pacific Daylight Time,
                    > ANE-2@yahoogroups.com writes:
                    >
                    > > As another poster pointed out, the term "pharaoh" means "great house".
                    > > It is not used to refer to the King before the New Kingdom,
                    >
                    > According to Alan Gardiner (Egyptian Grammar, 1957, p. 75) it is merely
                    > uncertain whether or not per-'3 (per-o or Pharaoh) "Great House" (royal palace)
                    > referred to the King before the New Kingdom, simply because of ambiguity in the
                    > examples of the usage available. He gives a late 12th Dynasty Middle Kingdom
                    > example that seems pretty clear despite his expressed uncertainty: "Great
                    > House, may it live, prosper, be in health," which can only refer to the Pharaoh
                    > living, prospering and being in health, not an inanimate building.
                    >
                    > Brad C. Sparks
                    > Orange County, CA
                    >
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