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Re: [ANE-2] Re:Persian period times of messages

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  • George Athas
    Liz s original question pertained to the situation after the death of Cambyses. Absolute chaos reigned at that time and, by the number of rebellions that broke
    Message 1 of 28 , Mar 24, 2009
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      Liz's original question pertained to the situation after the death of Cambyses. Absolute chaos reigned at that time and, by the number of rebellions that broke out everywhere, it is most probable that no one knew who was running the place, nor even if the Persian Empire would survive. Darius' own inscription at Behistun attests to something of the confusion at the time. His final consolidation of power probably came as a surprise to everyone.


      Regards,

      GEORGE ATHAS
      Moore Theological College (Sydney, Australia)
      www.moore.edu.au



      [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
    • Clark Whelton
      Last month we discussed the speed with which a message could be transmitted in the Persian period. I noted that the Pony Express mail service in the western
      Message 2 of 28 , Apr 5, 2009
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        Last month we discussed the speed with which a message could be transmitted
        in the Persian period. I noted that the Pony Express mail service in the
        western USA in 1860-61 covered some 3000 kms in eight to ten days, with
        riders changing horses at 150 relay stations.

        Recently I came across the following passage in "Beasts, Men and Gods" by
        Ferdinand Ossendowski, an account of the author's escape from Bolshevik
        Siberia via Mongolia:


        "Prince Chultun Beyle gave us a very good guide--an old Mongol named Tzeren,
        who spoke and read
        Russian perfectly. He was a very interesting personage, holding the position
        of interpreter with the Mongolian authorities and sometimes with the Chinese
        Commissioner. Shortly before he had been sent as a special envoy to Peking
        with very important despatches and this incomparable horseman had made the
        journey between Uliassutai and Peking, that is 1,800 miles (2900 kms), in
        nine days, incredible as it may seem."


        This is almost exactly the same distance as the Pony Express route, and was
        covered in almost exactly the same time. This seems to represent,
        therefore, a maximum effort for transmitting messages across long distances
        by galloping horse.


        Clark Whelton
        New York

        PS "Beasts, Men and Gods," a fascinating read, is available free at
        Project Guttenberg,
        http://www.gutenberg.org/files/2067/2067.txt
      • Lisbeth S. Fried
        Thanks Clark, so if they used horses they’d probably go north, but if across the desert, they’d want camels, no? Liz Fried _____ From:
        Message 3 of 28 , Apr 6, 2009
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          Thanks Clark,

          so if they used horses they’d probably go north, but if across the desert, they’d want camels, no?

          Liz Fried



          _____

          From: ANE-2@yahoogroups.com [mailto:ANE-2@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of Clark Whelton
          Sent: Sunday, April 05, 2009 9:39 PM
          To: ANE-2@yahoogroups.com
          Subject: [ANE-2] Persian period times of messages



          Last month we discussed the speed with which a message could be transmitted
          in the Persian period. I noted that the Pony Express mail service in the
          western USA in 1860-61 covered some 3000 kms in eight to ten days, with
          riders changing horses at 150 relay stations.

          Recently I came across the following passage in "Beasts, Men and Gods" by
          Ferdinand Ossendowski, an account of the author's escape from Bolshevik
          Siberia via Mongolia:

          "Prince Chultun Beyle gave us a very good guide--an old Mongol named Tzeren,
          who spoke and read
          Russian perfectly. He was a very interesting personage, holding the position
          of interpreter with the Mongolian authorities and sometimes with the Chinese
          Commissioner. Shortly before he had been sent as a special envoy to Peking
          with very important despatches and this incomparable horseman had made the
          journey between Uliassutai and Peking, that is 1,800 miles (2900 kms), in
          nine days, incredible as it may seem."

          This is almost exactly the same distance as the Pony Express route, and was
          covered in almost exactly the same time. This seems to represent,
          therefore, a maximum effort for transmitting messages across long distances
          by galloping horse.

          Clark Whelton
          New York

          PS "Beasts, Men and Gods," a fascinating read, is available free at
          Project Guttenberg,
          http://www.gutenber <http://www.gutenberg.org/files/2067/2067.txt> g.org/files/2067/2067.txt





          [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
        • Henrik Rasmussen
          Is there any record of fire/smoke signals in those times? The native Americans and the Scandinavians used fire/smoke to relay messages great distances,
          Message 4 of 28 , Apr 6, 2009
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            Is there any record of fire/smoke signals in those times? The native
            Americans and the Scandinavians used fire/smoke to relay messages great
            distances, quickly.

            Rik Rasmussen




            On Mon, Apr 6, 2009 at 10:59 AM, Lisbeth S. Fried <lizfried@...>wrote:

            > Thanks Clark,
            >
            > so if they used horses they�d probably go north, but if across the desert,
            > they�d want camels, no?
            >
            > Liz Fried
            >
            > _____
            >
            > From: ANE-2@yahoogroups.com <ANE-2%40yahoogroups.com> [mailto:
            > ANE-2@yahoogroups.com <ANE-2%40yahoogroups.com>] On Behalf Of Clark
            > Whelton
            > Sent: Sunday, April 05, 2009 9:39 PM
            > To: ANE-2@yahoogroups.com <ANE-2%40yahoogroups.com>
            > Subject: [ANE-2] Persian period times of messages
            >
            > Last month we discussed the speed with which a message could be transmitted
            >
            > in the Persian period. I noted that the Pony Express mail service in the
            > western USA in 1860-61 covered some 3000 kms in eight to ten days, with
            > riders changing horses at 150 relay stations.
            >
            > Recently I came across the following passage in "Beasts, Men and Gods" by
            > Ferdinand Ossendowski, an account of the author's escape from Bolshevik
            > Siberia via Mongolia:
            >
            > "Prince Chultun Beyle gave us a very good guide--an old Mongol named
            > Tzeren,
            > who spoke and read
            > Russian perfectly. He was a very interesting personage, holding the
            > position
            > of interpreter with the Mongolian authorities and sometimes with the
            > Chinese
            > Commissioner. Shortly before he had been sent as a special envoy to Peking
            > with very important despatches and this incomparable horseman had made the
            > journey between Uliassutai and Peking, that is 1,800 miles (2900 kms), in
            > nine days, incredible as it may seem."
            >
            > This is almost exactly the same distance as the Pony Express route, and was
            >
            > covered in almost exactly the same time. This seems to represent,
            > therefore, a maximum effort for transmitting messages across long distances
            >
            > by galloping horse.
            >
            > Clark Whelton
            > New York
            >
            > PS "Beasts, Men and Gods," a fascinating read, is available free at
            > Project Guttenberg,
            > http://www.gutenber <http://www.gutenberg.org/files/2067/2067.txt>
            > g.org/files/2067/2067.txt
            >
            > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
            >
            >
            >


            [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
          • Peter T. Daniels
            Yes -- they were mentioned earlier in this thread somewhere. See Briant, From Cyrus to Alexander, p. 371, for references. (Not in the index, unfortunately. The
            Message 5 of 28 , Apr 6, 2009
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              Yes -- they were mentioned earlier in this thread somewhere. See Briant, From Cyrus to Alexander, p. 371, for references. (Not in the index, unfortunately. The same page talks about the loud-speakers who shouted messages from spot to spot.) We have no information on the sort of codes or signals used in communicating by beacon fire. --
              Peter T. Daniels grammatim@...

              ----- Original Message ----
              > From: Henrik Rasmussen <rikrasmussen@...>
              > To: ANE-2@yahoogroups.com
              > Sent: Monday, April 6, 2009 11:46:48 AM
              > Subject: Re: [ANE-2] Persian period times of messages
              >
              > Is there any record of fire/smoke signals in those times? The native
              > Americans and the Scandinavians used fire/smoke to relay messages great
              > distances, quickly.
            • cejo@uchicago.edu
              I think ALL of Chapter 9 of Briant s book: Territories, Communication, and Trade in PTD s translation (pp. 357-387 and Research Notes pp. 927-930) or
              Message 6 of 28 , Apr 6, 2009
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                I think ALL of Chapter 9 of Briant's book: "Territories, Communication, and Trade" in PTD's
                translation (pp. 357-387 and Research Notes pp. 927-930) or "Espaces, communications et échange" in
                the original French (pp. 369-398, and Notes Documentaires pp. 952-956) is important basic
                background for the question(s) being posed in this thread.

                -Chuck Jones-

                >Date: Mon, 6 Apr 2009 10:36:25 -0700 (PDT)
                >From: "Peter T. Daniels" <grammatim@...>
                >Subject: Re: [ANE-2] Persian period times of messages
                >To: ANE-2@yahoogroups.com
                >
                > Yes -- they were mentioned earlier in this thread somewhere. See Briant, From Cyrus to
                > Alexander, p. 371, for references. (Not in the index, unfortunately. The same page talks
                > about the loud-speakers who shouted messages from spot to spot.) We have no information on
                > the sort of codes or signals used in communicating by beacon fire. --
                > Peter T. Daniels grammatim@...
                >
                > ----- Original Message ----
                > > From: Henrik Rasmussen <rikrasmussen@...>
                > > To: ANE-2@yahoogroups.com
                > > Sent: Monday, April 6, 2009 11:46:48 AM
                > > Subject: Re: [ANE-2] Persian period times of messages
                > >
                > > Is there any record of fire/smoke signals in those times? The native
                > > Americans and the Scandinavians used fire/smoke to relay messages great
                > > distances, quickly.
              • Yitzhak Sapir
                ... The section in the chapter Royal Mail and Royal Couriers can be read online at: http://books.google.com/books?id=lxQ9W6F1oSYC&pg=PA369 I also found
                Message 7 of 28 , Apr 6, 2009
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                  On Mon, Apr 6, 2009 at 10:08 PM, Chuck Jones wrote:
                  > I think ALL of Chapter 9 of Briant's book:  "Territories, Communication, and Trade" in PTD's
                  > translation (pp. 357-387 and Research Notes pp. 927-930) or "Espaces, communications et échange" in
                  > the original French (pp. 369-398, and Notes Documentaires pp. 952-956)  is important basic
                  > background for the question(s) being posed in this thread.

                  The section in the chapter "Royal Mail and Royal Couriers" can be read
                  online at:
                  http://books.google.com/books?id=lxQ9W6F1oSYC&pg=PA369

                  I also found interesting and perhaps relevant the following section:
                  "Communication among the Ancients" in Communications: An International
                  History of the
                  Formative Years, by R. W. Burns. I am just unsure of the competence
                  of the author in
                  historiography. For example, he has no problem quoting scholarship
                  from the 19th century
                  (such as on page 9).
                  The chapter starts at: http://books.google.com/books?id=7eUUy8-VvwoC&pg=PA1
                  Nevertheless, it seems to be a good reference for source material on
                  the subject. I note
                  that on page 5 he mentions how the Persians preferred the reliability
                  of couriers to beacons,
                  on page 9 he mentions Lachish 6, and on page 10, the limitation of
                  visual beacons in that
                  the message must be prearranged.
                  page 5: http://books.google.com/books?id=7eUUy8-VvwoC&pg=PA5
                  page 9: http://books.google.com/books?id=7eUUy8-VvwoC&pg=PA9
                  page 10: http://books.google.com/books?id=7eUUy8-VvwoC&pg=PA10

                  Yitzhak Sapir
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