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Re: [ANE-2] some queries on DSS Ink article

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  • Peter T. Daniels
    I bracketed the pigs because, at this date, it s rather unlikely that they might have used pig parchment, especially for holy books. Do any chemical analyses
    Message 1 of 21 , Mar 3, 2009
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      I bracketed the pigs because, at this date, it's rather unlikely that they might have used pig parchment, especially for holy books.

      Do any chemical analyses of the soil or sediments show any substances associated with parchment- or leather-making? (Parchment involves "liming," so presumably there would be traces of quicklime or its byproducts. Leather-making is more familiar, and if you found tanning residue, you'd know it.) 

      If you can keep your sheep indoors, you can't have had very many of them. Certainly not enough to supply the writing needs of an active scriptorium ... which the ink analysis folks seem to be heading back to.
      --
      Peter T. Daniels grammatim@...
      ________________________________
      From: Joe Zias <joezias@...>
      To: ANE-2@yahoogroups.com
      Sent: Tuesday, March 3, 2009 11:00:14 AM
      Subject: Re: [ANE-2] some queries on DSS Ink article


      We found the liver fluke, sheep/goats. There are wild boar in the oasis's I'm told but the area is not hospitable to swine in terms of large numbers. Their feces are however fatal in terms of water contamination, the situation in Calif. a few months back was a prime example of the danger. And remember the water supply there was pretty much open, above ground.

      Joe Zias www.joezias. com
      Anthropology/ Paleopathology

      Science and Antiquity Group - Jerusalem
      Jerusalem, Israel

      --- On Tue, 3/3/09, Peter T. Daniels <grammatim@verizon. net> wrote:
      From: Peter T. Daniels <grammatim@verizon. net>
      Subject: Re: [ANE-2] some queries on DSS Ink article
      To: ANE-2@yahoogroups. com
      Date: Tuesday, March 3, 2009, 10:31 AM

      Are sheep, goats, and kine (the animals most likely to be turned into parchment, as also pigs are) housed in stables? 
      --
      Peter T. Daniels grammatim@verizon. net

      ____________ _________ _________ __

      From: Joe Zias <joezias@yahoo. com>

      To: ANE-2@yahoogroups. com

      Sent: Tuesday, March 3, 2009 8:17:20 AM

      Subject: Re: [ANE-2] some queries on DSS Ink article

      Daniels asks: " If parchment was being made somewhere, wouldn't there be evidence of flocks and herds there?

       'A few yrs back, after listening to all the controversy over whether or not locus 51 was a toilet or a tabun, or the stable was really a stable, we simply sampled the earth found there in the loci and found human parasites in the toilet and animal parasites in the stable. Both were species specific, thus there were four legged animals there in the stable as De Vaux believed and two legged animals using locus 51.

      Joe Zias

      Joe Zias www.joezias. com
    • ihutchesson
      ... Hi Joe. Is there a bibliographic pointer for this analysis? It s quite an interesting fact. ... I fear the fact that the water system is now above ground
      Message 2 of 21 , Mar 6, 2009
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        --- In ANE-2@yahoogroups.com, Joe Zias <joezias@...> wrote:
        >
        > We found the liver fluke, sheep/goats. There are wild boar in
        > the oasis's I'm told but the area is not hospitable to swine in
        > terms of large numbers.

        Hi Joe.

        Is there a bibliographic pointer for this analysis? It's quite an interesting fact.

        > Their feces are however fatal in terms of water contamination,
        > the situation in Calif. a few months back was a prime example of
        > the danger. And remember the water supply there was pretty much
        > open, above ground.

        I fear the fact that the water system is now above ground is the result of the archaeological dig, not the builders of the water system. The water channel was sumped at the SE of L132, obviously to stop sediments from going down the channel. Do you think they would have left it open so that the water they wanted to keep got dirty? There are still a few traces of the stones covering the channel to be seen.


        Ian Hutchesson
      • Joe Zias
        Shalom, I ve published 2 or 3 articles on the parasites, it s probably here... All were in Revue d Qumran. I ve given all my reprints away , maybe you could
        Message 3 of 21 , Mar 6, 2009
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          Shalom, I've published 2 or 3 articles on the parasites, it's probably here... All were in Revue d Qumran. I've given all my reprints away , maybe you could find it on line.





            
          1.   Toilet practices among the Essene community at Qumran (Harter, Bouchet,
          Mumcuoglu, Zias) in Revue d Qumran 2004.



          Joe Zias www.joezias.com
          Anthropology/Paleopathology

          Science and Antiquity Group - Jerusalem
          Jerusalem, Israel

          --- On Fri, 3/6/09, ihutchesson <ihutchesson@...> wrote:

          From: ihutchesson <ihutchesson@...>
          Subject: [ANE-2] Re: some queries on DSS Ink article
          To: ANE-2@yahoogroups.com
          Date: Friday, March 6, 2009, 8:56 AM












          --- In ANE-2@yahoogroups. com, Joe Zias <joezias@... > wrote:

          >

          > We found the liver fluke, sheep/goats. There are wild boar in

          > the oasis's I'm told but the area is not hospitable to swine in

          > terms of large numbers.



          Hi Joe.



          Is there a bibliographic pointer for this analysis? It's quite an interesting fact.



          > Their feces are however fatal in terms of water contamination,

          > the situation in Calif. a few months back was a prime example of

          > the danger. And remember the water supply there was pretty much

          > open, above ground.



          I fear the fact that the water system is now above ground is the result of the archaeological dig, not the builders of the water system. The water channel was sumped at the SE of L132, obviously to stop sediments from going down the channel. Do you think they would have left it open so that the water they wanted to keep got dirty? There are still a few traces of the stones covering the channel to be seen.



          Ian Hutchesson




























          [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
        • Joe Zias
          I was there last week, traces of fecal material from the rains clearly seen in the channel and remember it s the virus s/bacteria which cannot be seen which
          Message 4 of 21 , Mar 6, 2009
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            I was there last week, traces of fecal material from the rains clearly seen in the channel and remember it's the virus's/bacteria which cannot be seen which get you in the end.
            I've tested the water (IL dept of health) and the runoff is highly contaminated, prob. is that tests show e-coli but not from which animal and some are benign


            Joe Zias www.joezias.com
            Anthropology/Paleopathology

            Science and Antiquity Group - Jerusalem
            Jerusalem, Israel

            --- On Fri, 3/6/09, ihutchesson <ihutchesson@...> wrote:

            From: ihutchesson <ihutchesson@...>
            Subject: [ANE-2] Re: some queries on DSS Ink article
            To: ANE-2@yahoogroups.com
            Date: Friday, March 6, 2009, 8:56 AM












            --- In ANE-2@yahoogroups. com, Joe Zias <joezias@... > wrote:

            >

            > We found the liver fluke, sheep/goats. There are wild boar in

            > the oasis's I'm told but the area is not hospitable to swine in

            > terms of large numbers.



            Hi Joe.



            Is there a bibliographic pointer for this analysis? It's quite an interesting fact.



            > Their feces are however fatal in terms of water contamination,

            > the situation in Calif. a few months back was a prime example of

            > the danger. And remember the water supply there was pretty much

            > open, above ground.



            I fear the fact that the water system is now above ground is the result of the archaeological dig, not the builders of the water system. The water channel was sumped at the SE of L132, obviously to stop sediments from going down the channel. Do you think they would have left it open so that the water they wanted to keep got dirty? There are still a few traces of the stones covering the channel to be seen.



            Ian Hutchesson




























            [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
          • David Hall
            Cholera, polio, and dysentery were human diseases passed through contact with or by drinking polluted water.  Cases of cholera recorded by Dr. Torrance of the
            Message 5 of 21 , Mar 6, 2009
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              Cholera, polio, and dysentery were human diseases passed through contact with or by drinking polluted water.  Cases of cholera recorded by Dr. Torrance of the Tiberias Scottish Mission Hospital in the 19th century were attributed to women who had household members infected with cholera washing their clothes at a section of lakeside beach where women went to draw water.  The disease spread quickly through the community. 
               
              The use of the mikveh may have begun after 150 B.C. during Hasmonean times.  This may have indicated a time when a type of observance of this particular law of Moses' ritual purity began.  It is not proven when the actual law was written as this may have differed from the time it was observed by use of the mikveh.  The mikveh was a community dipping pool for cleansing one's body, clothes, and certain new food and beverage utensils, or used metal or glass utensils suspected of being unclean.  The use of the mikveh had become less widespread by the end of the first century A.D.
               
              There were likely problems with the Roman baths as polio that caused paralysis was caused by bathing in water polluted by bathers. Where people bathed or discharged sewage near areas that were used for drawing drinking water were also likely to become sources of disease.  The first modern medical description of polio was by Heine in 1840, although conditions of paralysis were described as far back as Roman times.  The Christians did not require immersion for ritual purity, except once in a lifetime, and sometimes the fresh water was poured over the head rather than full immersion in a river for baptism.  Eventually the work of Pasteur and Salk developed vaccines to prevent cholera and polio. 

              Qumran Park has some first century mikvehs on display.  The Dead Sea sectarian scrolls describe the use of a mikveh:  4Q270  "...a man may not wash in water that is filthy and too shallow to make a ripple, a man may not purify any dish in such water..." Dead Sea Scrolls, Wise, Abegg, and Cook, 1996, HarperCollins.

              Mark 7:2-4 (ASV public domain)
               
              2 and had seen that some of his disciples ate their bread with defiled, that is, unwashen, hands.
              3 (For the Pharisees, and all the Jews, except they wash their hands diligently, eat not, holding the tradition of the elders;
              4 and when they come from the market-place, except they bathe themselves, they eat not; and many other things there are, which they have received to hold, washings of cups, and pots, and brasen vessels.)

              The washing of pots, pitchers, and cups in the mikveh was not sanitary as the water where people bathed was subject ot fecal contamination. A pitcher used to wash one's hands was suspect to spreading epidemic disease.

              The practical use of mikvehs for bathing and washing utensils described in both 4Q270 and the Gospel According to Mark may be compared to similar instances in the Talmud, all 72 volumes, one publisher sold 73. 

              The primary vectors for spread of flukes (found at Qumran according to Joe Zias) was described in the first paragraph of this article:

              http://www.parasite-cleanse.com/fluke-parasite.html

              David Q. Hall   
              dqhall59@...


              --- On Fri, 3/6/09, Joe Zias <joezias@...> wrote:

              From: Joe Zias <joezias@...>
              Subject: Re: [ANE-2] Re: some queries on DSS Ink article
              To: ANE-2@yahoogroups.com
              Date: Friday, March 6, 2009, 2:32 PM






              Shalom, I've published 2 or 3 articles on the parasites, it's probably here... All were in Revue d Qumran. I've given all my reprints away , maybe you could find it on line.

                
              1.   Toilet practices among the Essene community at Qumran (Harter, Bouchet,
              Mumcuoglu, Zias) in Revue d Qumran 2004.

              Joe Zias www.joezias. com
              Anthropology/ Paleopathology

              Science and Antiquity Group - Jerusalem
              Jerusalem, Israel

              --- On Fri, 3/6/09, ihutchesson <ihutchesson@ yahoo.com> wrote:

              From: ihutchesson <ihutchesson@ yahoo.com>
              Subject: [ANE-2] Re: some queries on DSS Ink article
              To: ANE-2@yahoogroups. com
              Date: Friday, March 6, 2009, 8:56 AM

              --- In ANE-2@yahoogroups. com, Joe Zias <joezias@... > wrote:

              >

              > We found the liver fluke, sheep/goats. There are wild boar in

              > the oasis's I'm told but the area is not hospitable to swine in

              > terms of large numbers.

              Hi Joe.

              Is there a bibliographic pointer for this analysis? It's quite an interesting fact.

              > Their feces are however fatal in terms of water contamination,

              > the situation in Calif. a few months back was a prime example of

              > the danger. And remember the water supply there was pretty much

              > open, above ground.

              I fear the fact that the water system is now above ground is the result of the archaeological dig, not the builders of the water system. The water channel was sumped at the SE of L132, obviously to stop sediments from going down the channel. Do you think they would have left it open so that the water they wanted to keep got dirty? There are still a few traces of the stones covering the channel to be seen.

              Ian Hutchesson











              [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
            • ihutchesson
              Thanks, Joe. Much appreciated. Ian Hutchesson
              Message 6 of 21 , Mar 6, 2009
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                Thanks, Joe. Much appreciated.

                Ian Hutchesson

                > Shalom, I've published 2 or 3 articles on the parasites, it's
                > probably here... All were in Revue d Qumran.
                >   
                > 1.   Toilet practices among the Essene community at Qumran (Harter,
                > Bouchet, Mumcuoglu, Zias) in Revue d Qumran 2004.
                >
                > Joe Zias www.joezias.com
              • ihutchesson
                Just so that I understand correctly here, you re talking about fecal material that has recently washed down into the site and along the main channel. Is that
                Message 7 of 21 , Mar 7, 2009
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                  Just so that I understand correctly here, you're talking about fecal material that has recently washed down into the site and along the main channel. Is that right? Or is there some implication to be gathered about the situation 2000 years ago?

                  Thanks.


                  Ian Hutchesson

                  --- In ANE-2@yahoogroups.com, Joe Zias <joezias@...> wrote:
                  >
                  > I was there last week, traces of fecal material from the rains
                  > clearly seen in the channel and remember it's the virus's/bacteria
                  > which cannot be seen which get you in the end.
                  > I've tested the water (IL dept of health) and the runoff is highly
                  > contaminated, prob. is that tests show e-coli but not from which
                  > animal and some are benign
                  >
                  >
                  > Joe Zias www.joezias.com
                • Joe Zias
                  What you see today would mirror the situation in the past as there has not been any serious bldg in the area for thousands of years, I climbed the cliffs, got
                  Message 8 of 21 , Mar 7, 2009
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                    What you see today would mirror the situation in the past as there has not been any serious bldg in the area for thousands of years, I climbed the cliffs, got the water from the pools and despite what Stacey says, it's possible and I got a few yrs on him. As for those dams which folks were talking about, someone said that there was no dam at Masada, there were, according to the current excavator, there were two and higher and a lower one. My impression from my Qumran climb was that there may have not been a need for a dam there as the channel was close to a natural depression in the bed rock which would have channeled the flash floods into the aqueduct. Animal fecal material was everywhere, washed down from the higher elevations.

                    Joe

                    Joe Zias www.joezias.com
                    Anthropology/Paleopathology

                    Science and Antiquity Group - Jerusalem
                    Jerusalem, Israel

                    --- On Sat, 3/7/09, ihutchesson <ihutchesson@...> wrote:

                    From: ihutchesson <ihutchesson@...>
                    Subject: [ANE-2] Animal parasites (Was: some queries on DSS Ink article)
                    To: ANE-2@yahoogroups.com
                    Date: Saturday, March 7, 2009, 3:39 AM












                    Just so that I understand correctly here, you're talking about fecal material that has recently washed down into the site and along the main channel. Is that right? Or is there some implication to be gathered about the situation 2000 years ago?



                    Thanks.



                    Ian Hutchesson



                    --- In ANE-2@yahoogroups. com, Joe Zias <joezias@... > wrote:

                    >

                    > I was there last week, traces of fecal material from the rains

                    > clearly seen in the channel and remember it's the virus's/bacteria

                    > which cannot be seen which get you in the end.

                    > I've tested the water (IL dept of health) and the runoff is highly

                    > contaminated, prob. is that tests show e-coli but not from which

                    > animal and some are benign

                    >

                    >

                    > Joe Zias www.joezias. com




























                    [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                  • ihutchesson
                    ... Hi Joe. I don t know what you are basing your need call on here, Joe, but the dam s existence is fairly strong. The aqueduct is not a makeshift adaption to
                    Message 9 of 21 , Mar 10, 2009
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                      --- In ANE-2@yahoogroups.com, Joe Zias <joezias@...> wrote:
                      >
                      > What you see today would mirror the situation in the past as
                      > there has not been any serious bldg in the area for thousands
                      > of years, I climbed the cliffs, got the water from the pools
                      > and despite what Stacey says, it's possible and I got a few
                      > yrs on him. As for those dams which folks were talking about,
                      > someone said that there was no dam at Masada, there were,
                      > according to the current excavator, there were two and higher
                      > and a lower one. My impression from my Qumran climb was that
                      > there may have not been a need for a dam there as the channel
                      > was close to a natural depression in the bed rock which would
                      > have channeled the flash floods into the aqueduct. Animal fecal
                      > material was everywhere, washed down from the higher elevations.

                      Hi Joe.

                      I don't know what you are basing your need call on here, Joe, but the dam's existence is fairly strong. The aqueduct is not a makeshift adaption to the available terrain, but includes stretches of channel cut through solid rock, the latter part which takes the water away from the ravine is as impressive as it is hard on the knees. The channel doesn't start at some natural sink, as you might expect, but hugs the northern wall of the gorge, ending at a location that best makes sense if one considers the notion of a dam wall. If you spent the resources to cut that tunnel, I think you'd go the extra distance to build the dam wall.

                      Without the dam a year round water supply becomes precarious. (I'm sure you'd want to be sure you had water all the year, wouldn't you?) The water system from the ravine down on through Qumran was covered to protect the water.

                      As to the idea of parasites washing down into the water system in ancient times, I wouldn't know. I don't know anything about the density of heard population that would have used the catchment area for grazing. But as to the parasite traces found in the "stables", I guess you mean L.97 and perhaps L.96, is that right?


                      Ian Hutchesson
                    • Joan Griffith
                      In my area, it is usually the ducks & geese that gather on the beaches... but e coli is e. coli. Joan H Griffith ... -- Joan For my part I know nothing with
                      Message 10 of 21 , Mar 10, 2009
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                        In my area, it is usually the ducks & geese that gather on the beaches...
                        but e coli is e. coli.
                        Joan H Griffith
                        On Sat, Mar 7, 2009 at 4:39 AM, ihutchesson <ihutchesson@...> wrote:

                        > Just so that I understand correctly here, you're talking about fecal
                        > material that has recently washed down into the site and along the main
                        > channel. Is that right? Or is there some implication to be gathered about
                        > the situation 2000 years ago?
                        >
                        > Thanks.
                        >
                        > Ian Hutchesson
                        >
                        > --- In ANE-2@yahoogroups.com <ANE-2%40yahoogroups.com>, Joe Zias <joezias@...>
                        > wrote:
                        > >
                        > > I was there last week, traces of fecal material from the rains
                        > > clearly seen in the channel and remember it's the virus's/bacteria
                        > > which cannot be seen which get you in the end.
                        > > I've tested the water (IL dept of health) and the runoff is highly
                        > > contaminated, prob. is that tests show e-coli but not from which
                        > > animal and some are benign
                        > >
                        > >
                        > > Joe Zias www.joezias.com
                        >
                        >
                        >



                        --
                        Joan
                        For my part I know nothing with any certainty, but the sight of the stars
                        makes me dream.~ Vincent van Gogh


                        [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                      • Joe Zias
                        Water all year they had that s for sure with all those cisterns, mikvot. As for a dam, I followed the aqueduct from the beginning, in and through the cliffs
                        Message 11 of 21 , Mar 10, 2009
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                          Water all year they had that's for sure with all those cisterns, mikvot. As for a dam, I followed the aqueduct from the beginning, in and through the cliffs down to the site. There may have once been a dam as according to the excvator of Masada there were prob. two, one having been washed away. These devices, like terraces, must be mainainted, if they were there, though I did not see one while climbing the cliffs.

                          Joe Zias


                          Joe Zias www.joezias.com
                          Anthropology/Paleopathology

                          Science and Antiquity Group - Jerusalem
                          Jerusalem, Israel

                          --- On Tue, 3/10/09, ihutchesson <ihutchesson@...> wrote:

                          From: ihutchesson <ihutchesson@...>
                          Subject: [ANE-2] Re: Animal parasites (Was: some queries on DSS Ink article)
                          To: ANE-2@yahoogroups.com
                          Date: Tuesday, March 10, 2009, 2:29 PM












                          --- In ANE-2@yahoogroups. com, Joe Zias <joezias@... > wrote:

                          >

                          > What you see today would mirror the situation in the past as

                          > there has not been any serious bldg in the area for thousands

                          > of years, I climbed the cliffs, got the water from the pools

                          > and despite what Stacey says, it's possible and I got a few

                          > yrs on him. As for those dams which folks were talking about,

                          > someone said that there was no dam at Masada, there were,

                          > according to the current excavator, there were two and higher

                          > and a lower one. My impression from my Qumran climb was that

                          > there may have not been a need for a dam there as the channel

                          > was close to a natural depression in the bed rock which would

                          > have channeled the flash floods into the aqueduct. Animal fecal

                          > material was everywhere, washed down from the higher elevations.



                          Hi Joe.



                          I don't know what you are basing your need call on here, Joe, but the dam's existence is fairly strong. The aqueduct is not a makeshift adaption to the available terrain, but includes stretches of channel cut through solid rock, the latter part which takes the water away from the ravine is as impressive as it is hard on the knees. The channel doesn't start at some natural sink, as you might expect, but hugs the northern wall of the gorge, ending at a location that best makes sense if one considers the notion of a dam wall. If you spent the resources to cut that tunnel, I think you'd go the extra distance to build the dam wall.



                          Without the dam a year round water supply becomes precarious. (I'm sure you'd want to be sure you had water all the year, wouldn't you?) The water system from the ravine down on through Qumran was covered to protect the water.



                          As to the idea of parasites washing down into the water system in ancient times, I wouldn't know. I don't know anything about the density of heard population that would have used the catchment area for grazing. But as to the parasite traces found in the "stables", I guess you mean L.97 and perhaps L.96, is that right?



                          Ian Hutchesson






























                          [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                        • Joe Zias
                          Joan writes ...but e coli is e. coli.   Whereas there are many different types of e-coli, some are dangerous, some are fatal, most are harmless and some are
                          Message 12 of 21 , Mar 10, 2009
                          • 0 Attachment
                            Joan writes '...but e coli is e. coli.'  Whereas there are many different types of e-coli, some are dangerous, some are fatal, most are harmless and some are beneficial. I guarantee you that when you are buying food in the mkts. you are usually ingesting some, whether you know it or not.

                            Joe Zias www.joezias.com
                            Anthropology/Paleopathology

                            Science and Antiquity Group - Jerusalem
                            Jerusalem, Israel

                            --- On Tue, 3/10/09, Joan Griffith <despinne@...> wrote:

                            From: Joan Griffith <despinne@...>
                            Subject: Re: [ANE-2] Animal parasites (Was: some queries on DSS Ink article)
                            To: ANE-2@yahoogroups.com
                            Date: Tuesday, March 10, 2009, 2:41 PM












                            In my area, it is usually the ducks & geese that gather on the beaches...

                            but e coli is e. coli.

                            Joan H Griffith

                            On Sat, Mar 7, 2009 at 4:39 AM, ihutchesson <ihutchesson@ yahoo.com> wrote:



                            > Just so that I understand correctly here, you're talking about fecal

                            > material that has recently washed down into the site and along the main

                            > channel. Is that right? Or is there some implication to be gathered about

                            > the situation 2000 years ago?

                            >

                            > Thanks.

                            >

                            > Ian Hutchesson

                            >

                            > --- In ANE-2@yahoogroups. com <ANE-2%40yahoogroup s.com>, Joe Zias <joezias@... >

                            > wrote:

                            > >

                            > > I was there last week, traces of fecal material from the rains

                            > > clearly seen in the channel and remember it's the virus's/bacteria

                            > > which cannot be seen which get you in the end.

                            > > I've tested the water (IL dept of health) and the runoff is highly

                            > > contaminated, prob. is that tests show e-coli but not from which

                            > > animal and some are benign

                            > >

                            > >

                            > > Joe Zias www.joezias. com

                            >

                            >

                            >



                            --

                            Joan

                            For my part I know nothing with any certainty, but the sight of the stars

                            makes me dream.~ Vincent van Gogh



                            [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]




























                            [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
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