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Re: daming [formerly ink from a Dead Sea Scroll ...]

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  • dastacey62
    Of course barrage dams existed in Judea. The point that I m making, if it needs spelling out, is that all of the major dams requiring considerable know-how
    Message 1 of 20 , Mar 3, 2009
      Of course barrage dams existed in Judea. The point that I'm making,
      if it needs spelling out, is that all of the major dams requiring
      considerable know-how and huge resources were instigated by the state
      or the temple. The construction of the dam at Qumran and of the rock-
      cut channel required the sort of labour and financial resources,
      technical expertise and determination demonstrated by Herod in other
      of his building projects and should be associated with his expansion
      of the settlement in 31 BCE. The recent excavations of Magen and
      Peleg would appear to confirm this date.

      David Stacey
      UK

      --- In ANE-2@yahoogroups.com, JEFFREY A BLAKELY <jblakely@...> wrote:
      >
      > Good Morning
      >
      > Barrage dams feeding sluices and watering fields were a bit of
      a "doodle" by even 1200 BC in Yemen. If you look around Saba and
      Qataban evidence for them is all over the place in remnants and in
      agricultural fields built up by the silt in the runoff produced
      during floods. If you want a good example see the Marib Dam, a truly
      massive dam capable of taking on an incredible deluge and a dam that
      was in use for over a millennium. It is hard to believe that the
      knowledge did not reach the other end of the trade route.
      >
      > Jeffrey A. Blakely
      > Madison, WI
      >
      > ----- Original Message -----
      > From: dastacey62 <DAVID.STACEY63@...>
      > Date: Tuesday, March 3, 2009 4:04 am
      > Subject: [ANE-2] Re: ink from a Dead Sea Scroll made near the Dead
      Sea
      > To: ANE-2@yahoogroups.com
      >
      >
      > > Most of these dams are, are they not, on a fairly minor scale and
      > > would not have had to withstand the sort of terrific force
      present
      > > in flash floods as they thunder down Nahal Qumran. The power of
      such
      > >
      > > flash floods is an awesome sight. The dam at Qumran would have
      been 4
      > >
      > > or 5 metres high and would have needed to have walls at least 3m
      > > thick at the base. Yet it probably needed some sort of sluice
      system
      > >
      > > to, if necessary, relieve the pressure of the initial torrent.
      This
      > > required considerable hydrological knowledge and was not your
      average
      > >
      > > agricultural installation.
      > >
      > > David Stacey
      > > -
      > > -- In ANE-2@yahoogroups.com, "theodc25" <chesnut@> wrote:
      > > >
      > > > Quite close to Qumran, is the Buqe'ah Valley which has
      substantial
      > > > evidence of intensive agricultural production including dams,
      > > > terraces, and walls built for pools. The major sites in
      valley are
      > > > Khirbet Abu Tabaq, Khirbet es-Samrah, and Khirbet el-Maqari
      > > partially
      > > > excavated by Cross and Milik, and further research was done by
      > > Stager.
      > > > The sites, terracing, and dams are all dated around the
      8th/7th
      > > > century BCE based on lmlk jars and other pottery found at the
      > > sites.
      > > >
      > > > It has been suggested that much of this area was reused in the
      3rd
      > > > cent BCE-1st cent CE, because of the close proximity of
      Hyrcania, a
      > > > Roman road running through the valley to Qumran, and some late
      > > > Hellenistic/early Roman pottery that was found at the forts.
      Also
      > > I
      > > > thought there were dams around Masada?
      > > >
      > > > Owen Chesnut
      > > > Ph.D. Candidate
      > > > Andrews University
      > > >
      > > >
      > > >
      > > >
      > > > --- In ANE-2@yahoogroups.com, "dastacey62" <DAVID.STACEY63@>
      wrote:
      > > > >
      > > > > Well Joe, that's odd - there are no major dams at Masada or
      > > Jericho
      > > > > where you say they are necessary, and in fact the only two
      major
      > >
      > > > > Second Temple dams are in Caesarea and Jerusalem where you
      say
      > > they
      > > > > are unnecessary... curioser and curiouser
      > > > >
      > > > > David Stacey
      > > > >
      > > > > UK
      > > > > --- In ANE-2@yahoogroups.com, "Joe Zias" <joezias@> wrote:
      > > > > >
      > > > > > David Stacey on the subject of dams in antiquity
      writes "If it
      > >
      > > was
      > > > > all so
      > > > > > easy why didn't every Tom, Dick or Harry build dams all
      over
      > > the
      > > > > country?"
      > > > > > The answer is simple, in the desert areas where rain fall
      is
      > > > > minimal as in
      > > > > > Masada, Qumran and Jericho, dams are necessary to collect
      > > runoff
      > > > > from higher
      > > > > > elevations. In areas where there is adequate seasonal
      rainfall
      > >
      > > or
      > > > > springs,
      > > > > > such as Jerusalem, Caesarea, Beit Shean ect, they are
      > > unnecessary.
      > > > > >
      > > > > >
      > > > > >
      > > > > > Joe Zias
      > > > > >
      > > > > >
      > > > > >
      > > > > > From: ANE-2@yahoogroups.com [mailto:ANE-2@yahoogroups.com]
      On
      > > > > Behalf Of
      > > > > > dastacey62
      > > > > > Sent: Saturday, February 28, 2009 9:51 AM
      > > > > > To: ANE-2@yahoogroups.com
      > > > > > Subject: [ANE-2] Re: ink from a Dead Sea Scroll made near
      the
      > > Dead
      > > > > Sea
      > > > > >
      > > > > >
      > > > > >
      > > > > > So Joe, Building a dam 4 to 5 m high, with walls on
      average
      > > perhaps
      > > > > > 2.5 m thick, perhaps with foundations cut into the
      bedrock, was
      > >
      > > all
      > > > > a
      > > > > > bit of a doddle. The fact that no trace of it has survived
      the
      > >
      > > > > floods
      > > > > > of the past 2000 years indicates the forces it had to
      > > withstand. If
      > > > > > it was all so easy why didn't every Tom, Dick or Harry
      build
      > > dams
      > > > > all
      > > > > > over the country? The fact is that only Herod seems to
      have had
      > >
      > > the
      > > > > > necessary knowledge and resources which he put to use in
      his
      > > two
      > > > > > prestigious city water systems; for the high-level
      aqueduct at
      > >
      > > > > > Caesarea, and the Wadi el-Biyar dam in the Solomons Pool
      system
      > >
      > > > > > outside Jerusalem.
      > > > > > David Stacey
      > > > > >
      > > > > > --- In ANE-2@yahoogroups.com < ,
      > > Joe
      > > > > Zias
      > > > > > <joezias@> wrote:
      > > > > > >
      > > > > > > David Stacey writes in connection to Goransons post the
      > > > > > following::The only dams from the Second Temple period of
      which
      > >
      > > I
      > > > > am
      > > > > > >
      > > > > > > aware are both considered to be the work of Herod and
      are
      > > > > integral
      > > > > > >
      > > > > > > parts of the water systems of two of his most
      prestigious
      > > cities,
      > > > > > >
      > > > > > > Jerusalem and Caesarea (high level aqueduct). Neither
      would
      > > have
      > > > > > had
      > > > > > >
      > > > > > > to withstand the same ferocity of floods as in Qumran.
      > > > > > >
      > > > > > > I would like to remind readers that a few kms up the
      road in
      > >
      > > the
      > > > > > 8th millineum BC the folks in Jericho were already
      constructing
      > >
      > > > > dams.
      > > > > > For the folks in Qumran I doub't if this was any mean
      feat,
      > > some
      > > > > > 8,000 yrs later.
      > > > > > >
      > > > > > > Joe
      > > > > > >
      > > > > > > Joe Zias www.joezias.com
      > > > > > > Anthropology/Paleopathology
      > > > > > >
      > > > > > > Science and Antiquity Group - Jerusalem
      > > > > > > Jerusalem, Israel
      > > > > > >
      > > >
      > >
      > >
      > >
      >
    • JEFFREY A BLAKELY
      Well, I guess the point I wish to make is that a truly major water project, such as the aqueduct system at Caesarea or the Marib dam, certainly would be state
      Message 2 of 20 , Mar 3, 2009
        Well, I guess the point I wish to make is that a truly major water project, such as the aqueduct system at Caesarea or the Marib dam, certainly would be state supported. One the other hand a small barrage dam and channel on a small wadi like at Qumran hardly rises to that level no matter how much force may be coming down the channel on occasion. The technology had been around for a long time.

        Jeff Blakely
        Madison, Wisconsin

        ----- Original Message -----
        From: dastacey62 <DAVID.STACEY63@...>
        Date: Tuesday, March 3, 2009 9:52 am
        Subject: [ANE-2] Re: daming [formerly ink from a Dead Sea Scroll ...]
        To: ANE-2@yahoogroups.com


        > Of course barrage dams existed in Judea. The point that I'm making,
        > if it needs spelling out, is that all of the major dams requiring
        > considerable know-how and huge resources were instigated by the state
        >
        > or the temple. The construction of the dam at Qumran and of the rock-
        > cut channel required the sort of labour and financial resources,
        > technical expertise and determination demonstrated by Herod in other
        >
        > of his building projects and should be associated with his expansion
        >
        > of the settlement in 31 BCE. The recent excavations of Magen and
        > Peleg would appear to confirm this date.
        >
        > David Stacey
        > UK
        >
        > --- In ANE-2@yahoogroups.com, JEFFREY A BLAKELY <jblakely@...> wrote:
        > >
        > > Good Morning
        > >
        > > Barrage dams feeding sluices and watering fields were a bit of
        > a "doodle" by even 1200 BC in Yemen. If you look around Saba and
        > Qataban evidence for them is all over the place in remnants and in
        > agricultural fields built up by the silt in the runoff produced
        > during floods. If you want a good example see the Marib Dam, a truly
        >
        > massive dam capable of taking on an incredible deluge and a dam that
        >
        > was in use for over a millennium. It is hard to believe that the
        > knowledge did not reach the other end of the trade route.
        > >
        > > Jeffrey A. Blakely
        > > Madison, WI
      • dastacey62
        In June 2007 I visited the site of the dam a couple of weeks after a particularly ferocious flood had cleaned out the whole basin down to bedrock (and killed
        Message 3 of 20 , Mar 4, 2009
          In June 2007 I visited the site of the dam a couple of weeks after a particularly ferocious flood had cleaned out the whole basin down to bedrock (and killed two abseilers lower down the wadi). The entrance to the aqueduct some 4 or 5 metres higher was completely inaccessible, not only to an old fart like myself, but also to a young and agile PhD student I was showing around. How exactly the dam was built is hard to reconstruct. Presumably the stones were quarried in the basin itself but there was little room for a ramp to get them to the upper courses of the dam - I know I wouldn't have liked to have been one of the labourers involved - perhaps as it's apparently so insignificant a construction project you have ideas as to how it was built?

          You accept that Caesarea was state supported. Owen Chesnut has mentioned barrages around Hyrcania and Masada, both building projects of Herod, who, incidentally, liked Jericho so much that he built himself three different palaces there, increasing the availablilty of water to them by extending the Hasmonean Na'aran aqueduct to take in the waters of Ein el-Auja some 14 kms to the north which is the same distance as Qumran is to the south. It would seem that Qumran was just a part of his Jericho estate and inter-connected with his other building projects. And archaeologically the date of the dam, which most logically was built together with the so-called- 'main' aqueduct system, can be no earlier than 31 BCE (see my article in DSD 14:2 (2007) - that's 'Dead Sea Discoveries' for those who find these acronyms obscure). This dating will probably be confirmed when the results of Magen and Peleg's excavations (even the preliminary publication was not available to me at the time I was writing the DSD article)are finally published (see Magen and Peleg 2007 p.8 amd fig 11).

          Which takes us back all the way to the start of this correspondence when I asked how a scroll dated by some as early as the second century BCE could have been written in Qumran at a time when there was no possibility of year round occupation?

          David Stacey


          --- In ANE-2@yahoogroups.com, JEFFREY A BLAKELY <jblakely@...> wrote:
          >
          >
          > Well, I guess the point I wish to make is that a truly major water project, such as the aqueduct system at Caesarea or the Marib dam, certainly would be state supported. One the other hand a small barrage dam and channel on a small wadi like at Qumran hardly rises to that level no matter how much force may be coming down the channel on occasion. The technology had been around for a long time.
          >
          > Jeff Blakely
          > Madison, Wisconsin
          >
          > ----- Original Message -----
          > From: dastacey62 <DAVID.STACEY63@...>
          > Date: Tuesday, March 3, 2009 9:52 am
          > Subject: [ANE-2] Re: daming [formerly ink from a Dead Sea Scroll ...]
          > To: ANE-2@yahoogroups.com
          >
          >
          > > Of course barrage dams existed in Judea. The point that I'm making,
          > > if it needs spelling out, is that all of the major dams requiring
          > > considerable know-how and huge resources were instigated by the state
          > >
          > > or the temple. The construction of the dam at Qumran and of the rock-
          > > cut channel required the sort of labour and financial resources,
          > > technical expertise and determination demonstrated by Herod in other
          > >
          > > of his building projects and should be associated with his expansion
          > >
          > > of the settlement in 31 BCE. The recent excavations of Magen and
          > > Peleg would appear to confirm this date.
          > >
          > > David Stacey
          > > UK
          > >
          > > --- In ANE-2@yahoogroups.com, JEFFREY A BLAKELY <jblakely@> wrote:
          > > >
          > > > Good Morning
          > > >
          > > > Barrage dams feeding sluices and watering fields were a bit of
          > > a "doodle" by even 1200 BC in Yemen. If you look around Saba and
          > > Qataban evidence for them is all over the place in remnants and in
          > > agricultural fields built up by the silt in the runoff produced
          > > during floods. If you want a good example see the Marib Dam, a truly
          > >
          > > massive dam capable of taking on an incredible deluge and a dam that
          > >
          > > was in use for over a millennium. It is hard to believe that the
          > > knowledge did not reach the other end of the trade route.
          > > >
          > > > Jeffrey A. Blakely
          > > > Madison, WI
          >
        • JEFFREY A BLAKELY
          Clearly there is nothing at the Qumran dam site that identifies Herod as the builder, or maybe better the conscriptor since I doubt he personally built it.
          Message 4 of 20 , Mar 4, 2009
            Clearly there is nothing at the Qumran dam site that identifies Herod as the builder, or maybe better the conscriptor since I doubt he personally built it. One can certainly reconstruct a Herodian construction view from the extant evidence, just as one can reconstruct a sectarian construction view from that same evidence. We may differ on which is more likely. I will certainly agree with David, however, "I know I wouldn't have liked to have been one of the labourers involved." Its hot down there. On the method of construction, I would guess slowly and carefully during a dry season lest it be washed away. Beyond that we have no evidence.

            Best wishes,
            Jeffrey A. Blakely
            Madison, WI


            ----- Original Message -----
            From: dastacey62 <DAVID.STACEY63@...>
            Date: Wednesday, March 4, 2009 3:03 am
            Subject: [ANE-2] Re: daming [formerly ink from a Dead Sea Scroll ...]
            To: ANE-2@yahoogroups.com


            > In June 2007 I visited the site of the dam a couple of weeks after a
            > particularly ferocious flood had cleaned out the whole basin down to
            > bedrock (and killed two abseilers lower down the wadi). The entrance
            > to the aqueduct some 4 or 5 metres higher was completely inaccessible,
            > not only to an old fart like myself, but also to a young and agile PhD
            > student I was showing around. How exactly the dam was built is hard to
            > reconstruct. Presumably the stones were quarried in the basin itself
            > but there was little room for a ramp to get them to the upper courses
            > of the dam - I know I wouldn't have liked to have been one of the
            > labourers involved - perhaps as it's apparently so insignificant a
            > construction project you have ideas as to how it was built?
            >
            >
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