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parchment (and leather??) Re: [ANE-2] Re: some queries on DSS Ink article

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  • Peter T. Daniels
    What is a seasonal flock, and if you had one, why would you slaughter it for parchment? What is your evidence for the production of either parchment or
    Message 1 of 16 , Mar 3 5:42 AM
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      What is a "seasonal" flock, and if you had one, why would you slaughter it for parchment?

      What is your evidence for the production of either parchment or leather?

      How do you imagine they're made, if not with chemicals?

      A tannery isn't exactly something you want to have next to your quarters, and surely would leave evidence in the archeological record.

      I haven't the foggiest what "BAIAS" is, nor where to find a copy. 
      --
      Peter T. Daniels grammatim@...
      ________________________________
      From: dastacey62 <DAVID.STACEY63@...>
      To: ANE-2@yahoogroups.com
      Sent: Tuesday, March 3, 2009 8:01:21 AM
      Subject: [ANE-2] Re: some queries on DSS Ink article

      Re flocks:- Seasonal flocks around Qumran. May I draw your attention
      to my article in BAIAS 26 (2008).

      Parchment and leather both start off as animal skins but are
      processed differently (not, in antiquity, with chemicals per se). For
      refs see above article.

      David Stacey

      -- In ANE-2@yahoogroups. com, "Peter T. Daniels" <grammatim@. ..> wrote:
      >
      >
      > If parchment was being made somewhere, wouldn't there be evidence
      of flocks and herds there? Wouldn't there be evidence of the
      chemicals involved? And I don't know what you mean by "other
      leathers" -- parchment and leather are very different materials, and
      the procedures for making them are very different.
      >  --
      > Peter T. Daniels grammatim@.. .
      > ____________ _________ _________ __
      > From: dastacey62 <DAVID.STACEY63@ ...>
      > To: ANE-2@yahoogroups. com
      > Sent: Tuesday, March 3, 2009 4:06:46 AM
      > Subject: [ANE-2] some queries on DSS Ink article
      >
      > ...
      >
      > The most puzzling thing to me is that they claim that the Cl/Br
      ratio
      > that they detect on both the ink and the parchment suggest that
      both
      > may have been 'produced in the Dead Sea area' presumably utilising
      > water from the Dead Sea itself. Would there have been something
      > beneficial in using Dead Sea water in the production of both
      > parchment and ink? The water most freely available at Qumran itself
      > was gathered rain water, the softest source of water around. If, as
      > we are told 'carbon inks were usually stored as dry pellets and
      mixed
      > with water directly before writing' why would any supposed scribe
      at
      > Qumran go all the way to the Dead Sea for water with which to mix
      his
      > ink? I support the idea that parchment and other leathers were made
      > at Qumran but, again, why not use the rain water avaiable? I am not
      a
      > scientist. Could that the Cl/Br ratio on the parchment result from
      > the prolonged soaking in excrement necessary for depilation? Salts
      > can be seen crystalising all around the Dead Sea. Could these salts
      > be the result of 2000 years in a cave?
      >
      > David Stacey
      > UK
    • Robert M Whiting
      ... Bulletin of the Anglo-Israel Archaeological Society. NYPL holds it according to their online catalog. Bob Whiting whiting@cc.helsinki.fi
      Message 2 of 16 , Mar 3 6:02 AM
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        On Tue, 3 Mar 2009, Peter T. Daniels wrote:

        > I haven't the foggiest what "BAIAS" is, nor where to find a copy. 

        Bulletin of the Anglo-Israel Archaeological Society.

        NYPL holds it according to their online catalog.

        Bob Whiting
        whiting@...
      • dastacey62
        ... If you haven t the foggiest what BAIAS is perhaps it would be more courteous to find out and to read my article in it that answers most of your questions.
        Message 3 of 16 , Mar 3 8:04 AM
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          --- In ANE-2@yahoogroups.com, "Peter T. Daniels" <grammatim@...>
          wrote:
          >
          If you haven't the foggiest what BAIAS is perhaps it would be more
          courteous to find out and to read my article in it that answers most
          of your questions.

          'Seasonal' flocks = transhumance - the movement of flocks down to the
          early grazing around the Dead Sea that results from winter rains and
          warm climate. See inter alia Cross 'Two Aramaic Ostraca from En-Gedi'
          in Stern (ed) En-Gedi Excavations I (2007)

          Evidence of production of leather and parchment near Qumran see e.g.
          Pp169-176 in Atiqot 41/2 (2002)

          For processing techniques see the entries in my bibliography for, in
          particular, Forbes; Hodges, and Poole and Read.

          >
          > What is a "seasonal" flock, and if you had one, why would you
          slaughter it for parchment?
          >
          > What is your evidence for the production of either parchment or
          leather?
          >
          > How do you imagine they're made, if not with chemicals?
          >
          > A tannery isn't exactly something you want to have next to your
          quarters, and surely would leave evidence in the archeological record.
          >
          > I haven't the foggiest what "BAIAS" is, nor where to find a copy. 
          > --
          > Peter T. Daniels grammatim@...
          > ________________________________
          > From: dastacey62 <DAVID.STACEY63@...>
          > To: ANE-2@yahoogroups.com
          > Sent: Tuesday, March 3, 2009 8:01:21 AM
          > Subject: [ANE-2] Re: some queries on DSS Ink article
          >
          > Re flocks:- Seasonal flocks around Qumran. May I draw your
          attention
          > to my article in BAIAS 26 (2008).
          >
          > Parchment and leather both start off as animal skins but are
          > processed differently (not, in antiquity, with chemicals per se).
          For
          > refs see above article.
          >
          > David Stacey
          >
          > -- In ANE-2@yahoogroups. com, "Peter T. Daniels" <grammatim@ ..>
          wrote:
          > >
          > >
          > > If parchment was being made somewhere, wouldn't there be evidence
          > of flocks and herds there? Wouldn't there be evidence of the
          > chemicals involved? And I don't know what you mean by "other
          > leathers" -- parchment and leather are very different materials,
          and
          > the procedures for making them are very different.
          > >  --
          > > Peter T. Daniels grammatim@ .
          > > ____________ _________ _________ __
          > > From: dastacey62 <DAVID.STACEY63@ ...>
          > > To: ANE-2@yahoogroups. com
          > > Sent: Tuesday, March 3, 2009 4:06:46 AM
          > > Subject: [ANE-2] some queries on DSS Ink article
          > >
          > > ...
          > >
          > > The most puzzling thing to me is that they claim that the Cl/Br
          > ratio
          > > that they detect on both the ink and the parchment suggest that
          > both
          > > may have been 'produced in the Dead Sea area' presumably
          utilising
          > > water from the Dead Sea itself. Would there have been something
          > > beneficial in using Dead Sea water in the production of both
          > > parchment and ink? The water most freely available at Qumran
          itself
          > > was gathered rain water, the softest source of water around. If,
          as
          > > we are told 'carbon inks were usually stored as dry pellets and
          > mixed
          > > with water directly before writing' why would any supposed scribe
          > at
          > > Qumran go all the way to the Dead Sea for water with which to mix
          > his
          > > ink? I support the idea that parchment and other leathers were
          made
          > > at Qumran but, again, why not use the rain water avaiable? I am
          not
          > a
          > > scientist. Could that the Cl/Br ratio on the parchment result
          from
          > > the prolonged soaking in excrement necessary for depilation?
          Salts
          > > can be seen crystalising all around the Dead Sea. Could these
          salts
          > > be the result of 2000 years in a cave?
          > >
          > > David Stacey
          > > UK
          >
        • Peter T. Daniels
          It was a bit uncourteous of you to throw out the abbreviation of a fairly obscure and perhaps sectarian journal without explanation. I do not have access to an
          Message 4 of 16 , Mar 3 1:24 PM
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            It was a bit uncourteous of you to throw out the abbreviation of a fairly obscure and perhaps sectarian journal without explanation. I do not have access to an archeological library, and when I can next get to the NYPL, which won't be until after the AOS, it takes at least 20 minutes for any individual volume to be fetched; there is no browsing.

            In the meanwhile, if you have answers to the questions -- how many sheep? evidence of parchment-making and of tanning? -- you might share them. Perhaps you could mention the author and title of the `Atiqot article.
             --
            Peter T. Daniels grammatim@...
            ________________________________
            From: dastacey62 <DAVID.STACEY63@...>
            To: ANE-2@yahoogroups.com
            Sent: Tuesday, March 3, 2009 11:04:07 AM
            Subject: parchment (and leather??) Re: [ANE-2] Re: some queries on DSS Ink article


            --- In ANE-2@yahoogroups. com, "Peter T. Daniels" <grammatim@. ..>
            wrote:
            >
            If you haven't the foggiest what BAIAS is perhaps it would be more
            courteous to find out and to read my article in it that answers most
            of your questions.

            'Seasonal' flocks = transhumance - the movement of flocks down to the
            early grazing around the Dead Sea that results from winter rains and
            warm climate. See inter alia Cross 'Two Aramaic Ostraca from En-Gedi'
            in Stern (ed) En-Gedi Excavations I (2007)

            Evidence of production of leather and parchment near Qumran see e.g.
            Pp169-176 in Atiqot 41/2 (2002)

            For processing techniques see the entries in my bibliography for, in
            particular, Forbes; Hodges, and Poole and Read.

            >
            > What is a "seasonal" flock, and if you had one, why would you
            slaughter it for parchment?
            >
            > What is your evidence for the production of either parchment or
            leather?
            >
            > How do you imagine they're made, if not with chemicals?
            >
            > A tannery isn't exactly something you want to have next to your
            quarters, and surely would leave evidence in the archeological record.
            >
            > I haven't the foggiest what "BAIAS" is, nor where to find a copy. 
            > --
            > Peter T. Daniels grammatim@.. .
            > ____________ _________ _________ __
            > From: dastacey62 <DAVID.STACEY63@ ...>
            > To: ANE-2@yahoogroups. com
            > Sent: Tuesday, March 3, 2009 8:01:21 AM
            > Subject: [ANE-2] Re: some queries on DSS Ink article
            >
            > Re flocks:- Seasonal flocks around Qumran. May I draw your
            attention
            > to my article in BAIAS 26 (2008).
            >
            > Parchment and leather both start off as animal skins but are
            > processed differently (not, in antiquity, with chemicals per se).
            For
            > refs see above article.
            >
            > David Stacey
            >
            > -- In ANE-2@yahoogroups. com, "Peter T. Daniels" <grammatim@ ..>
            wrote:
            > >
            > >
            > > If parchment was being made somewhere, wouldn't there be evidence
            > of flocks and herds there? Wouldn't there be evidence of the
            > chemicals involved? And I don't know what you mean by "other
            > leathers" -- parchment and leather are very different materials,
            and
            > the procedures for making them are very different.
            > >  --
            > > Peter T. Daniels grammatim@ .
            > > ____________ _________ _________ __
            > > From: dastacey62 <DAVID.STACEY63@ ...>
            > > To: ANE-2@yahoogroups. com
            > > Sent: Tuesday, March 3, 2009 4:06:46 AM
            > > Subject: [ANE-2] some queries on DSS Ink article
            > >
            > > ...
            > >
            > > The most puzzling thing to me is that they claim that the Cl/Br
            > ratio
            > > that they detect on both the ink and the parchment suggest that
            > both
            > > may have been 'produced in the Dead Sea area' presumably
            utilising
            > > water from the Dead Sea itself. Would there have been something
            > > beneficial in using Dead Sea water in the production of both
            > > parchment and ink? The water most freely available at Qumran
            itself
            > > was gathered rain water, the softest source of water around. If,
            as
            > > we are told 'carbon inks were usually stored as dry pellets and
            > mixed
            > > with water directly before writing' why would any supposed scribe
            > at
            > > Qumran go all the way to the Dead Sea for water with which to mix
            > his
            > > ink? I support the idea that parchment and other leathers were
            made
            > > at Qumran but, again, why not use the rain water avaiable? I am
            not
            > a
            > > scientist. Could that the Cl/Br ratio on the parchment result
            from
            > > the prolonged soaking in excrement necessary for depilation?
            Salts
            > > can be seen crystalising all around the Dead Sea. Could these
            salts
            > > be the result of 2000 years in a cave?
            > >
            > > David Stacey
            > > UK
          • dastacey62
            Peter, If you d have asked nicely I would have told you! As it is I ll try to send you a pdf of the article privately to save you having to go to th library.
            Message 5 of 16 , Mar 4 12:17 AM
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              Peter, If you'd have asked nicely I would have told you! As it is I'll try to send you a pdf of the article privately to save you having to go to th library. BTW I also have to travel to get to my nearest academic library which is why I asked for more info on the ink article in the first place.

              David Stacey

              - In ANE-2@yahoogroups.com, "Peter T. Daniels" <grammatim@...> wrote:
              >
              >
              > It was a bit uncourteous of you to throw out the abbreviation of a fairly obscure and perhaps sectarian journal without explanation. I do not have access to an archeological library, and when I can next get to the NYPL, which won't be until after the AOS, it takes at least 20 minutes for any individual volume to be fetched; there is no browsing.
              >
              > In the meanwhile, if you have answers to the questions -- how many sheep? evidence of parchment-making and of tanning? -- you might share them. Perhaps you could mention the author and title of the `Atiqot article.
              >  --
              > Peter T. Daniels grammatim@...
              > ________________________________
              > From: dastacey62 <DAVID.STACEY63@...>
              > To: ANE-2@yahoogroups.com
              > Sent: Tuesday, March 3, 2009 11:04:07 AM
              > Subject: parchment (and leather??) Re: [ANE-2] Re: some queries on DSS Ink article
              >
              >
              > --- In ANE-2@yahoogroups. com, "Peter T. Daniels" <grammatim@ ..>
              > wrote:
              > >
              > If you haven't the foggiest what BAIAS is perhaps it would be more
              > courteous to find out and to read my article in it that answers most
              > of your questions.
              >
              > 'Seasonal' flocks = transhumance - the movement of flocks down to the
              > early grazing around the Dead Sea that results from winter rains and
              > warm climate. See inter alia Cross 'Two Aramaic Ostraca from En-Gedi'
              > in Stern (ed) En-Gedi Excavations I (2007)
              >
              > Evidence of production of leather and parchment near Qumran see e.g.
              > Pp169-176 in Atiqot 41/2 (2002)
              >
              > For processing techniques see the entries in my bibliography for, in
              > particular, Forbes; Hodges, and Poole and Read.
              >
              > >
              > > What is a "seasonal" flock, and if you had one, why would you
              > slaughter it for parchment?
              > >
              > > What is your evidence for the production of either parchment or
              > leather?
              > >
              > > How do you imagine they're made, if not with chemicals?
              > >
              > > A tannery isn't exactly something you want to have next to your
              > quarters, and surely would leave evidence in the archeological record.
              > >
              > > I haven't the foggiest what "BAIAS" is, nor where to find a copy. 
              > > --
              > > Peter T. Daniels grammatim@ .
              > > ____________ _________ _________ __
              > > From: dastacey62 <DAVID.STACEY63@ ...>
              > > To: ANE-2@yahoogroups. com
              > > Sent: Tuesday, March 3, 2009 8:01:21 AM
              > > Subject: [ANE-2] Re: some queries on DSS Ink article
              > >
              > > Re flocks:- Seasonal flocks around Qumran. May I draw your
              > attention
              > > to my article in BAIAS 26 (2008).
              > >
              > > Parchment and leather both start off as animal skins but are
              > > processed differently (not, in antiquity, with chemicals per se).
              > For
              > > refs see above article.
              > >
              > > David Stacey
              > >
              > > -- In ANE-2@yahoogroups. com, "Peter T. Daniels" <grammatim@ ..>
              > wrote:
              > > >
              > > >
              > > > If parchment was being made somewhere, wouldn't there be evidence
              > > of flocks and herds there? Wouldn't there be evidence of the
              > > chemicals involved? And I don't know what you mean by "other
              > > leathers" -- parchment and leather are very different materials,
              > and
              > > the procedures for making them are very different.
              > > >  --
              > > > Peter T. Daniels grammatim@ .
              > > > ____________ _________ _________ __
              > > > From: dastacey62 <DAVID.STACEY63@ ...>
              > > > To: ANE-2@yahoogroups. com
              > > > Sent: Tuesday, March 3, 2009 4:06:46 AM
              > > > Subject: [ANE-2] some queries on DSS Ink article
              > > >
              > > > ...
              > > >
              > > > The most puzzling thing to me is that they claim that the Cl/Br
              > > ratio
              > > > that they detect on both the ink and the parchment suggest that
              > > both
              > > > may have been 'produced in the Dead Sea area' presumably
              > utilising
              > > > water from the Dead Sea itself. Would there have been something
              > > > beneficial in using Dead Sea water in the production of both
              > > > parchment and ink? The water most freely available at Qumran
              > itself
              > > > was gathered rain water, the softest source of water around. If,
              > as
              > > > we are told 'carbon inks were usually stored as dry pellets and
              > > mixed
              > > > with water directly before writing' why would any supposed scribe
              > > at
              > > > Qumran go all the way to the Dead Sea for water with which to mix
              > > his
              > > > ink? I support the idea that parchment and other leathers were
              > made
              > > > at Qumran but, again, why not use the rain water avaiable? I am
              > not
              > > a
              > > > scientist. Could that the Cl/Br ratio on the parchment result
              > from
              > > > the prolonged soaking in excrement necessary for depilation?
              > Salts
              > > > can be seen crystalising all around the Dead Sea. Could these
              > salts
              > > > be the result of 2000 years in a cave?
              > > >
              > > > David Stacey
              > > > UK
              >
            • Brian Yare
              After a little research, and several dead ends mostly in Brazil, I ve come up with Bulletin of the Anglo-Israel Archaeological Society . While Peter may have
              Message 6 of 16 , Mar 4 1:08 AM
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                After a little research, and several dead ends mostly in Brazil, I've come
                up with

                "Bulletin of the Anglo-Israel Archaeological Society".

                While Peter may have been a little blunt, it was unhelpful of David not to
                answer the question.

                I have not yet located any university or public library in the United
                Kingdom that subscribes to this bulletin: it would indeed appear to be
                'obscure'.

                Brian Yare

                > -----Original Message-----
                > From: ANE-2@yahoogroups.com [mailto:ANE-2@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of
                > dastacey62
                > Sent: 04 March 2009 08:18
                > To: ANE-2@yahoogroups.com
                > Subject: parchment (and leather??) Re: [ANE-2] Re: some queries on DSS
                > Ink article
                >
                > Peter, If you'd have asked nicely I would have told you! As it is I'll
                > try to send you a pdf of the article privately to save you having to go
                > to th library. BTW I also have to travel to get to my nearest academic
                > library which is why I asked for more info on the ink article in the
                > first place.
                >
                > David Stacey
                >
                > - In ANE-2@yahoogroups.com, "Peter T. Daniels" <grammatim@...> wrote:
                > >
                > >
                > > It was a bit uncourteous of you to throw out the abbreviation of a
                > fairly obscure and perhaps sectarian journal without explanation. I do
                > not have access to an archeological library, and when I can next get to
                > the NYPL, which won't be until after the AOS, it takes at least 20
                > minutes for any individual volume to be fetched; there is no browsing.
                > >
                > > In the meanwhile, if you have answers to the questions -- how many
                > sheep? evidence of parchment-making and of tanning? -- you might share
                > them. Perhaps you could mention the author and title of the `Atiqot
                > article.
                > >  --
                > > Peter T. Daniels grammatim@...
                > > ________________________________
                > > From: dastacey62 <DAVID.STACEY63@...>
                > > To: ANE-2@yahoogroups.com
                > > Sent: Tuesday, March 3, 2009 11:04:07 AM
                > > Subject: parchment (and leather??) Re: [ANE-2] Re: some queries on
                > DSS
                > > Ink article
                > >
                > >
                > > --- In ANE-2@yahoogroups. com, "Peter T. Daniels" <grammatim@ ..>
                > > wrote:
                > > >
                > > If you haven't the foggiest what BAIAS is perhaps it would be more
                > > courteous to find out and to read my article in it that answers most
                > > of your questions.
                > >
                > > 'Seasonal' flocks = transhumance - the movement of flocks down to the
                > > early grazing around the Dead Sea that results from winter rains and
                > > warm climate. See inter alia Cross 'Two Aramaic Ostraca from En-Gedi'
                > > in Stern (ed) En-Gedi Excavations I (2007)
                > >
                > > Evidence of production of leather and parchment near Qumran see e.g.
                > > Pp169-176 in Atiqot 41/2 (2002)
                > >
                > > For processing techniques see the entries in my bibliography for, in
                > > particular, Forbes; Hodges, and Poole and Read.
                > >
                > > >
                > > > What is a "seasonal" flock, and if you had one, why would you
                > > slaughter it for parchment?
                > > >
                > > > What is your evidence for the production of either parchment or
                > > leather?
                > > >
                > > > How do you imagine they're made, if not with chemicals?
                > > >
                > > > A tannery isn't exactly something you want to have next to your
                > > quarters, and surely would leave evidence in the archeological
                > record.
                > > >
                > > > I haven't the foggiest what "BAIAS" is, nor where to find a copy.
                > > > --
                > > > Peter T. Daniels grammatim@ .
                > > > ____________ _________ _________ __
                > > > From: dastacey62 <DAVID.STACEY63@ ...>
                > > > To: ANE-2@yahoogroups. com
                > > > Sent: Tuesday, March 3, 2009 8:01:21 AM
                > > > Subject: [ANE-2] Re: some queries on DSS Ink article
                > > >
                > > > Re flocks:- Seasonal flocks around Qumran. May I draw your
                > > attention
                > > > to my article in BAIAS 26 (2008).
                > > >
                > > > Parchment and leather both start off as animal skins but are
                > > > processed differently (not, in antiquity, with chemicals per se).
                > > For
                > > > refs see above article.
                > > >
                > > > David Stacey
                > > >
                > > > -- In ANE-2@yahoogroups. com, "Peter T. Daniels" <grammatim@ ..>
                > > wrote:
                > > > >
                > > > >
                > > > > If parchment was being made somewhere, wouldn't there be evidence
                > > > of flocks and herds there? Wouldn't there be evidence of the
                > > > chemicals involved? And I don't know what you mean by "other
                > > > leathers" -- parchment and leather are very different materials,
                > > and
                > > > the procedures for making them are very different.
                > > > >  --
                > > > > Peter T. Daniels grammatim@ .
                > > > > ____________ _________ _________ __
                > > > > From: dastacey62 <DAVID.STACEY63@ ...>
                > > > > To: ANE-2@yahoogroups. com
                > > > > Sent: Tuesday, March 3, 2009 4:06:46 AM
                > > > > Subject: [ANE-2] some queries on DSS Ink article
                > > > >
                > > > > ...
                > > > >
                > > > > The most puzzling thing to me is that they claim that the Cl/Br
                > > > ratio
                > > > > that they detect on both the ink and the parchment suggest that
                > > > both
                > > > > may have been 'produced in the Dead Sea area' presumably
                > > utilising
                > > > > water from the Dead Sea itself. Would there have been something
                > > > > beneficial in using Dead Sea water in the production of both
                > > > > parchment and ink? The water most freely available at Qumran
                > > itself
                > > > > was gathered rain water, the softest source of water around. If,
                > > as
                > > > > we are told 'carbon inks were usually stored as dry pellets and
                > > > mixed
                > > > > with water directly before writing' why would any supposed scribe
                > > > at
                > > > > Qumran go all the way to the Dead Sea for water with which to mix
                > > > his
                > > > > ink? I support the idea that parchment and other leathers were
                > > made
                > > > > at Qumran but, again, why not use the rain water avaiable? I am
                > > not
                > > > a
                > > > > scientist. Could that the Cl/Br ratio on the parchment result
                > > from
                > > > > the prolonged soaking in excrement necessary for depilation?
                > > Salts
                > > > > can be seen crystalising all around the Dead Sea. Could these
                > > salts
                > > > > be the result of 2000 years in a cave?
                > > > >
                > > > > David Stacey
                > > > > UK
                > >
                >
                >
                >
                >
                > ------------------------------------
                >
                > Yahoo! Groups Links
                >
                >
                >
              • dastacey62
                Having just attempted to send you a pdf I find your email address is blocked. If you care to send it to me privately a pdf will be yours. BTW what is a
                Message 7 of 16 , Mar 4 1:13 AM
                • 0 Attachment
                  Having just attempted to send you a pdf I find your email address is blocked. If you care to send it to me privately a pdf will be yours.
                  BTW what is a 'sectarian' journal?

                  David Stacey
                  --- In ANE-2@yahoogroups.com, "dastacey62" <DAVID.STACEY63@...> wrote:
                  >
                  > Peter, If you'd have asked nicely I would have told you! As it is I'll try to send you a pdf of the article privately to save you having to go to th library. BTW I also have to travel to get to my nearest academic library which is why I asked for more info on the ink article in the first place.
                  >
                  > David Stacey
                  >
                  > - In ANE-2@yahoogroups.com, "Peter T. Daniels" <grammatim@> wrote:
                  > >
                  > >
                  > > It was a bit uncourteous of you to throw out the abbreviation of a fairly obscure and perhaps sectarian journal without explanation. I do not have access to an archeological library, and when I can next get to the NYPL, which won't be until after the AOS, it takes at least 20 minutes for any individual volume to be fetched; there is no browsing.
                  >
                • dastacey62
                  See http://www.copac.ac.uk/wzgw?id=0903041bf525750961434abeabdab914f843de&f=u&rsn=1&rn=1 for the names of the seven academic libraries in the UK and Ireland
                  Message 8 of 16 , Mar 4 1:42 AM
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                    See http://www.copac.ac.uk/wzgw?id=0903041bf525750961434abeabdab914f843de&f=u&rsn=1&rn=1 for the names of the seven academic libraries in the UK and Ireland that carry BAIAS

                    David Stacey

                    --- In ANE-2@yahoogroups.com, "Brian Yare" <groups@...> wrote:
                    >
                    > After a little research, and several dead ends mostly in Brazil, I've come
                    > up with
                    >
                    > "Bulletin of the Anglo-Israel Archaeological Society".
                    >
                    > While Peter may have been a little blunt, it was unhelpful of David not to
                    > answer the question.
                    >
                    > I have not yet located any university or public library in the United
                    > Kingdom that subscribes to this bulletin: it would indeed appear to be
                    > 'obscure'.
                    >
                    > Brian Yare
                  • Robert M Whiting
                    ... There are several lists of bibliographical abbreviations in the links area of the ANE-2 main page
                    Message 9 of 16 , Mar 4 5:33 AM
                    • 0 Attachment
                      On Wed, 4 Mar 2009, Brian Yare wrote:

                      > After a little research, and several dead ends mostly in Brazil, I've come
                      > up with
                      >
                      > "Bulletin of the Anglo-Israel Archaeological Society".

                      There are several lists of bibliographical abbreviations in the links area
                      of the ANE-2 main page
                      (http://groups.yahoo.com/group/ANE-2/links/ANE_Abbreviations_001152881565/).
                      Admittedly, I didn't find BAIAS until my fourth try (in the University of
                      Chicago's catalog of their serial collection), but we do try to provide
                      reference materials of interest to scholars of the ANE on the site.

                      > While Peter may have been a little blunt, it was unhelpful of David not to
                      > answer the question.

                      For Peter, this was extremely polite.

                      > I have not yet located any university or public library in the United
                      > Kingdom that subscribes to this bulletin: it would indeed appear to be
                      > 'obscure'.

                      If you are in the UK and aren't familar with COPAC (http://copac.ac.uk/),
                      you will never learn any younger. It is an invaluable bibliographic
                      search tool:

                      Title details: Bulletin of the Anglo-Israel Archaeological Society.
                      Frequency: Annual
                      Published: [London] : The Society, 1982-
                      Physical desc.: v. : ill. ; 24 cm.
                      Identifier: ISSN: 0266-2442
                      Notes: Description based on : v. 22.
                      Online version of print publication.
                      Summary: Contains summaries of lectures about archaeological work
                      in Israel given to the Society and various meetings throughout
                      the previous year.
                      Subject: Excavations (Archaeology) -- Israel.
                      Excavations (Archaeology) -- Periodicals.
                      Archaeology -- Israel -- Periodicals.
                      Israel -- Antiquities -- Periodicals.
                      Ancient Israeli antiquities -- Archaeology -- Serials
                      Ancient Israeli antiquities -- Excavation of remains
                      Other names: Anglo-Israel Archaeological Society (London, England)
                      Genre: Periodical
                      Language: English

                      For holdings information select a library name below.

                      Location details:

                      * Bristol
                      * British Library
                      * Cambridge
                      * National Library of Scotland
                      * National Library of Wales / Llyfrgell Genedlaethol Cymru
                      * Oxford
                      * Trinity College Dublin
                      * UCL (University College London)
                      * University of London - ULRLS

                      http://copac.ac.uk/wzgw?id=0903048013c7d93dc8d066dc1e35c50cb27074&f=u&rsn=2&rn=1

                      You really shouldn't give up so easily.

                      Bob Whiting
                      whiting@...
                    • dastacey62
                      Which is four more than hold Dead Sea Discoveries which must be uber obscure!! David Stacey
                      Message 10 of 16 , Mar 4 5:51 AM
                      • 0 Attachment
                        Which is four more than hold 'Dead Sea Discoveries' which must be uber obscure!!

                        David Stacey

                        > Title details: Bulletin of the Anglo-Israel Archaeological Society.
                        > Frequency: Annual
                        > Published: [London] : The Society, 1982-
                        > Physical desc.: v. : ill. ; 24 cm.
                        > Identifier: ISSN: 0266-2442
                        > Notes: Description based on : v. 22.
                        > Online version of print publication.
                        > Summary: Contains summaries of lectures about archaeological work
                        > in Israel given to the Society and various meetings throughout
                        > the previous year.
                        > Subject: Excavations (Archaeology) -- Israel.
                        > Excavations (Archaeology) -- Periodicals.
                        > Archaeology -- Israel -- Periodicals.
                        > Israel -- Antiquities -- Periodicals.
                        > Ancient Israeli antiquities -- Archaeology -- Serials
                        > Ancient Israeli antiquities -- Excavation of remains
                        > Other names: Anglo-Israel Archaeological Society (London, England)
                        > Genre: Periodical
                        > Language: English
                        >
                        > For holdings information select a library name below.
                        >
                        > Location details:
                        >
                        > * Bristol
                        > * British Library
                        > * Cambridge
                        > * National Library of Scotland
                        > * National Library of Wales / Llyfrgell Genedlaethol Cymru
                        > * Oxford
                        > * Trinity College Dublin
                        > * UCL (University College London)
                        > * University of London - ULRLS
                        >
                        > http://copac.ac.uk/wzgw?id=0903048013c7d93dc8d066dc1e35c50cb27074&f=u&rsn=2&rn=1
                        >
                        > You really shouldn't give up so easily.
                        >
                        > Bob Whiting
                        > whiting@...
                        >
                      • Brian Yare
                        Bob I note that it took you four tries to locate the abbreviation. That is about my experience. But I repeat, we should not have had to do this research. Or
                        Message 11 of 16 , Mar 4 8:42 AM
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                          Bob

                          I note that it took you four tries to locate the abbreviation. That is about
                          my experience. But I repeat, we should not have had to do this research. Or
                          maybe the original poster did not want us to find it?


                          Yes, my first point of call was Copac, once I had worked out the
                          abbreviation. I cut and paste the name of the bulletin into the title box
                          and drew a blank. It appears that the location I cut it from (an old ANE or
                          ANE2 post, I can not remember which) must have had a typo.

                          But having now, thanks to your help, located the list of source libraries, I
                          see that this publication receives only a narrow academic subscription. The
                          four major academic libraries (all members of Copac) that I visit on a
                          regular basis are not represented. I used to go to Bristol, but their stock
                          (or Egyptology references, my interest) is very small (IMHO).

                          Assuming that the bulletin is provided free to the 6 major legal
                          repositories, only UCL, ULRLS and Bristol are actually paying!

                          Now that I know where to find it, I'll look out for it.

                          Brian Yare

                          > -----Original Message-----
                          > From: ANE-2@yahoogroups.com [mailto:ANE-2@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of
                          > Robert M Whiting
                          > Sent: 04 March 2009 13:34
                          > To: ANE-2@yahoogroups.com
                          > Subject: Re: [ANE-2] What is BAIAS
                          >
                          > On Wed, 4 Mar 2009, Brian Yare wrote:
                          >
                          > > After a little research, and several dead ends mostly in Brazil, I've
                          > > come up with
                          > >
                          > > "Bulletin of the Anglo-Israel Archaeological Society".
                          >
                          > There are several lists of bibliographical abbreviations in the links
                          > area of the ANE-2 main page (http://groups.yahoo.com/group/ANE-
                          > 2/links/ANE_Abbreviations_001152881565/).
                          > Admittedly, I didn't find BAIAS until my fourth try (in the University
                          > of Chicago's catalog of their serial collection), but we do try to
                          > provide reference materials of interest to scholars of the ANE on the
                          > site.
                          >
                          > > While Peter may have been a little blunt, it was unhelpful of David
                          > > not to answer the question.
                          >
                          > For Peter, this was extremely polite.
                          >
                          > > I have not yet located any university or public library in the United
                          > > Kingdom that subscribes to this bulletin: it would indeed appear to
                          > be
                          > > 'obscure'.
                          >
                          > If you are in the UK and aren't familar with COPAC
                          > (http://copac.ac.uk/), you will never learn any younger. It is an
                          > invaluable bibliographic search tool:
                          >
                          > Title details: Bulletin of the Anglo-Israel Archaeological Society.
                          > Frequency: Annual
                          > Published: [London] : The Society, 1982-
                          > Physical desc.: v. : ill. ; 24 cm.
                          > Identifier: ISSN: 0266-2442
                          > Notes: Description based on : v. 22.
                          > Online version of print publication.
                          > Summary: Contains summaries of lectures about archaeological work
                          > in Israel given to the Society and various meetings
                          > throughout
                          > the previous year.
                          > Subject: Excavations (Archaeology) -- Israel.
                          > Excavations (Archaeology) -- Periodicals.
                          > Archaeology -- Israel -- Periodicals.
                          > Israel -- Antiquities -- Periodicals.
                          > Ancient Israeli antiquities -- Archaeology -- Serials
                          > Ancient Israeli antiquities -- Excavation of remains
                          > Other names: Anglo-Israel Archaeological Society (London, England)
                          > Genre: Periodical
                          > Language: English
                          >
                          > For holdings information select a library name below.
                          >
                          > Location details:
                          >
                          > * Bristol
                          > * British Library
                          > * Cambridge
                          > * National Library of Scotland
                          > * National Library of Wales / Llyfrgell Genedlaethol Cymru
                          > * Oxford
                          > * Trinity College Dublin
                          > * UCL (University College London)
                          > * University of London - ULRLS
                          >
                          > http://copac.ac.uk/wzgw?id=0903048013c7d93dc8d066dc1e35c50cb27074&f=u&r
                          > sn=2&rn=1
                          >
                          > You really shouldn't give up so easily.
                          >
                          > Bob Whiting
                          > whiting@...
                          >
                          >
                          > ------------------------------------
                          >
                          > Yahoo! Groups Links
                          >
                          >
                          >
                        • Brian Yare
                          David Thanks. I finally got there. 6 of these are Legal Repositories , so that only leaves Bristol and the University of London (x2) as subscribers. I must
                          Message 12 of 16 , Mar 4 9:01 AM
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                            David

                            Thanks.

                            I finally got there. 6 of these are 'Legal Repositories', so that only
                            leaves Bristol and the University of London (x2) as subscribers.

                            I must have been hindered by a typo because Copac came up with nothing when
                            I first searched. Memory suggests that I probably pasted Israeli rather than
                            Israel, but I can't remember exactly where I was had cut from.

                            Anyway, that is sorted now.

                            Brian Yare
                          • Brian Yare
                            David Dead Sea Discoveries ? This is available on JSTOR, and Copac lists it in 2 records, which appear to overlap. Not all the Legal Repositories are
                            Message 13 of 16 , Mar 4 9:09 AM
                            • 0 Attachment
                              David

                              'Dead Sea Discoveries'? This is available on JSTOR, and Copac lists it in 2
                              records, which appear to overlap. Not all the Legal Repositories are
                              included.

                              It is available at

                              Aberdeen, Birmingham, Bristol, British Library, Cambridge, Durham,
                              Edinburgh, Glasgow, King's College London, Leeds, Manchester, Newcastle,
                              Nottingham, Oxford, Sheffield, Southampton, St. Andrews, University of
                              London - ULRLS, Warwick and Wellcome Library.

                              I think you may have shot yourself in the foot with this one. :-)

                              Brian Yare

                              > -----Original Message-----
                              > From: ANE-2@yahoogroups.com [mailto:ANE-2@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of
                              > dastacey62
                              > Sent: 04 March 2009 13:52
                              > To: ANE-2@yahoogroups.com
                              > Subject: [ANE-2] Re: What is BAIAS
                              >
                              >
                              > Which is four more than hold 'Dead Sea Discoveries' which must be uber
                              > obscure!!
                              >
                              > David Stacey
                            • dastacey62
                              Brian, I may indeed. I am not a librarian nor do I claim infallibillity (can t even spell the word properly!). Nonetheless I seem to remember when I was
                              Message 14 of 16 , Mar 5 12:22 AM
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                                Brian, I may indeed. I am not a librarian nor do I claim infallibillity (can't even spell the word properly!). Nonetheless I seem to remember when I was writing my PhD thesis that I had to demonstrate that I had picked up on every thing ever written on the subject in whatever language - which unfortunately included a couple in Japanese!!!

                                More seriously if you or anyone else on the list really want to address some of the questions I have raised, originally following Stephen's note on some very debatable conclusions reached in an article on DSS ink, and would like to read my thoughts on background topics in the obscure BAIAS so that I don't have to keep rehashing them I'll send them a pdf. One has already winged its way to Peter Daniels. I don't have a pdf of the final copy of my article in DSD but do have one of an early uncorrected proof.

                                As far as the ink is concerned I'd really really really like to know why any scribe at QUmran would use water from the Dead Sea to mix up his ink when he had gallons of fresh water on his doorstep. And also whether anyone has left a control scroll in a cave near Qumran for 2000 years to see if it just might get salts crystalise on it.

                                David Stacey

                                --- In ANE-2@yahoogroups.com, "Brian Yare" <groups@...> wrote:
                                >
                                > David
                                >
                                > 'Dead Sea Discoveries'? This is available on JSTOR, and Copac lists it in 2
                                > records, which appear to overlap. Not all the Legal Repositories are
                                > included.
                                >
                                > It is available at
                                >
                                > Aberdeen, Birmingham, Bristol, British Library, Cambridge, Durham,
                                > Edinburgh, Glasgow, King's College London, Leeds, Manchester, Newcastle,
                                > Nottingham, Oxford, Sheffield, Southampton, St. Andrews, University of
                                > London - ULRLS, Warwick and Wellcome Library.
                                >
                                > I think you may have shot yourself in the foot with this one. :-)
                                >
                                > Brian Yare
                                >
                                > > -----Original Message-----
                                > > From: ANE-2@yahoogroups.com [mailto:ANE-2@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of
                                > > dastacey62
                                > > Sent: 04 March 2009 13:52
                                > > To: ANE-2@yahoogroups.com
                                > > Subject: [ANE-2] Re: What is BAIAS
                                > >
                                > >
                                > > Which is four more than hold 'Dead Sea Discoveries' which must be uber
                                > > obscure!!
                                > >
                                > > David Stacey
                                >
                              • eliot braun
                                Bullet of the Anglo Israel Archaeological Society Its been around for at least 2 decades. Eliot Braun, Ph D Sr. Fellow WF Albright Institute of Archaeological
                                Message 15 of 16 , Mar 5 9:07 PM
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                                  Bullet of the Anglo Israel Archaeological Society
                                  Its been around for at least 2 decades.

                                  Eliot Braun, Ph D
                                  Sr. Fellow WF Albright Institute of Archaeological Research, Jerusalem
                                  Associate Researcher Centre de Recherche Français de Jérusalem
                                  PO Box 21, Har Adar 90836 Israel
                                  Tel 972-2-5345687, Cell 972-50-2231096

                                  --- On Thu, 3/5/09, dastacey62 <DAVID.STACEY63@...> wrote:


                                  From: dastacey62 <DAVID.STACEY63@...>
                                  Subject: [ANE-2] Re: What is BAIAS
                                  To: ANE-2@yahoogroups.com
                                  Date: Thursday, March 5, 2009, 10:22 AM






                                  Brian, I may indeed. I am not a librarian nor do I claim infallibillity (can't even spell the word properly!). Nonetheless I seem to remember when I was writing my PhD thesis that I had to demonstrate that I had picked up on every thing ever written on the subject in whatever language - which unfortunately included a couple in Japanese!!!

                                  More seriously if you or anyone else on the list really want to address some of the questions I have raised, originally following Stephen's note on some very debatable conclusions reached in an article on DSS ink, and would like to read my thoughts on background topics in the obscure BAIAS so that I don't have to keep rehashing them I'll send them a pdf. One has already winged its way to Peter Daniels. I don't have a pdf of the final copy of my article in DSD but do have one of an early uncorrected proof.

                                  As far as the ink is concerned I'd really really really like to know why any scribe at QUmran would use water from the Dead Sea to mix up his ink when he had gallons of fresh water on his doorstep. And also whether anyone has left a control scroll in a cave near Qumran for 2000 years to see if it just might get salts crystalise on it.

                                  David Stacey

                                  --- In ANE-2@yahoogroups. com, "Brian Yare" <groups@...> wrote:
                                  >
                                  > David
                                  >
                                  > 'Dead Sea Discoveries' ? This is available on JSTOR, and Copac lists it in 2
                                  > records, which appear to overlap. Not all the Legal Repositories are
                                  > included.
                                  >
                                  > It is available at
                                  >
                                  > Aberdeen, Birmingham, Bristol, British Library, Cambridge, Durham,
                                  > Edinburgh, Glasgow, King's College London, Leeds, Manchester, Newcastle,
                                  > Nottingham, Oxford, Sheffield, Southampton, St. Andrews, University of
                                  > London - ULRLS, Warwick and Wellcome Library.
                                  >
                                  > I think you may have shot yourself in the foot with this one. :-)
                                  >
                                  > Brian Yare
                                  >
                                  > > -----Original Message-----
                                  > > From: ANE-2@yahoogroups. com [mailto:ANE-2@yahoogroups. com] On Behalf Of
                                  > > dastacey62
                                  > > Sent: 04 March 2009 13:52
                                  > > To: ANE-2@yahoogroups. com
                                  > > Subject: [ANE-2] Re: What is BAIAS
                                  > >
                                  > >
                                  > > Which is four more than hold 'Dead Sea Discoveries' which must be uber
                                  > > obscure!!
                                  > >
                                  > > David Stacey
                                  >



















                                  [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                                • dastacey62
                                  Indeed it has. It might also be worthwhile to consider the current Editorial Advisory Board: Magen Broshi, Rupert Chapman, Shimon Dar, Claudine Dauphin, Yosef
                                  Message 16 of 16 , Mar 6 12:47 AM
                                  • 0 Attachment
                                    Indeed it has. It might also be worthwhile to consider the current Editorial Advisory Board: Magen Broshi, Rupert Chapman, Shimon Dar, Claudine Dauphin, Yosef Garfinkle, Martin Goodman, Ram Gophna, Amos Kloner, Tess Rajak, Fanny Vitto, G. J. Wightman, and last, but not least, Eliot Braun! A very 'obscure' list of scholars!!

                                    David Stacey

                                    --- In ANE-2@yahoogroups.com, eliot braun <eliotbraun@...> wrote:
                                    >
                                    > Bullet of the Anglo Israel Archaeological Society
                                    > Its been around for at least 2 decades.
                                    >
                                    > Eliot Braun, Ph D
                                    > Sr. Fellow WF Albright Institute of Archaeological Research, Jerusalem
                                    > Associate Researcher Centre de Recherche Français de Jérusalem
                                    > PO Box 21, Har Adar 90836 Israel
                                    > Tel 972-2-5345687, Cell 972-50-2231096
                                    >
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