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Re: [ANE-2] Re: daming [formerly ink from a Dead Sea Scroll ...]

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  • JEFFREY A BLAKELY
    Good Morning Barrage dams feeding sluices and watering fields were a bit of a doodle by even 1200 BC in Yemen. If you look around Saba and Qataban evidence
    Message 1 of 20 , Mar 3, 2009
      Good Morning

      Barrage dams feeding sluices and watering fields were a bit of a "doodle" by even 1200 BC in Yemen. If you look around Saba and Qataban evidence for them is all over the place in remnants and in agricultural fields built up by the silt in the runoff produced during floods. If you want a good example see the Marib Dam, a truly massive dam capable of taking on an incredible deluge and a dam that was in use for over a millennium. It is hard to believe that the knowledge did not reach the other end of the trade route.

      Jeffrey A. Blakely
      Madison, WI

      ----- Original Message -----
      From: dastacey62 <DAVID.STACEY63@...>
      Date: Tuesday, March 3, 2009 4:04 am
      Subject: [ANE-2] Re: ink from a Dead Sea Scroll made near the Dead Sea
      To: ANE-2@yahoogroups.com


      > Most of these dams are, are they not, on a fairly minor scale and
      > would not have had to withstand the sort of terrific force present
      > in flash floods as they thunder down Nahal Qumran. The power of such
      >
      > flash floods is an awesome sight. The dam at Qumran would have been 4
      >
      > or 5 metres high and would have needed to have walls at least 3m
      > thick at the base. Yet it probably needed some sort of sluice system
      >
      > to, if necessary, relieve the pressure of the initial torrent. This
      > required considerable hydrological knowledge and was not your average
      >
      > agricultural installation.
      >
      > David Stacey
      > -
      > -- In ANE-2@yahoogroups.com, "theodc25" <chesnut@...> wrote:
      > >
      > > Quite close to Qumran, is the Buqe'ah Valley which has substantial
      > > evidence of intensive agricultural production including dams,
      > > terraces, and walls built for pools. The major sites in valley are
      > > Khirbet Abu Tabaq, Khirbet es-Samrah, and Khirbet el-Maqari
      > partially
      > > excavated by Cross and Milik, and further research was done by
      > Stager.
      > > The sites, terracing, and dams are all dated around the 8th/7th
      > > century BCE based on lmlk jars and other pottery found at the
      > sites.
      > >
      > > It has been suggested that much of this area was reused in the 3rd
      > > cent BCE-1st cent CE, because of the close proximity of Hyrcania, a
      > > Roman road running through the valley to Qumran, and some late
      > > Hellenistic/early Roman pottery that was found at the forts. Also
      > I
      > > thought there were dams around Masada?
      > >
      > > Owen Chesnut
      > > Ph.D. Candidate
      > > Andrews University
      > >
      > >
      > >
      > >
      > > --- In ANE-2@yahoogroups.com, "dastacey62" <DAVID.STACEY63@> wrote:
      > > >
      > > > Well Joe, that's odd - there are no major dams at Masada or
      > Jericho
      > > > where you say they are necessary, and in fact the only two major
      >
      > > > Second Temple dams are in Caesarea and Jerusalem where you say
      > they
      > > > are unnecessary... curioser and curiouser
      > > >
      > > > David Stacey
      > > >
      > > > UK
      > > > --- In ANE-2@yahoogroups.com, "Joe Zias" <joezias@> wrote:
      > > > >
      > > > > David Stacey on the subject of dams in antiquity writes "If it
      >
      > was
      > > > all so
      > > > > easy why didn't every Tom, Dick or Harry build dams all over
      > the
      > > > country?"
      > > > > The answer is simple, in the desert areas where rain fall is
      > > > minimal as in
      > > > > Masada, Qumran and Jericho, dams are necessary to collect
      > runoff
      > > > from higher
      > > > > elevations. In areas where there is adequate seasonal rainfall
      >
      > or
      > > > springs,
      > > > > such as Jerusalem, Caesarea, Beit Shean ect, they are
      > unnecessary.
      > > > >
      > > > >
      > > > >
      > > > > Joe Zias
      > > > >
      > > > >
      > > > >
      > > > > From: ANE-2@yahoogroups.com [mailto:ANE-2@yahoogroups.com] On
      > > > Behalf Of
      > > > > dastacey62
      > > > > Sent: Saturday, February 28, 2009 9:51 AM
      > > > > To: ANE-2@yahoogroups.com
      > > > > Subject: [ANE-2] Re: ink from a Dead Sea Scroll made near the
      > Dead
      > > > Sea
      > > > >
      > > > >
      > > > >
      > > > > So Joe, Building a dam 4 to 5 m high, with walls on average
      > perhaps
      > > > > 2.5 m thick, perhaps with foundations cut into the bedrock, was
      >
      > all
      > > > a
      > > > > bit of a doddle. The fact that no trace of it has survived the
      >
      > > > floods
      > > > > of the past 2000 years indicates the forces it had to
      > withstand. If
      > > > > it was all so easy why didn't every Tom, Dick or Harry build
      > dams
      > > > all
      > > > > over the country? The fact is that only Herod seems to have had
      >
      > the
      > > > > necessary knowledge and resources which he put to use in his
      > two
      > > > > prestigious city water systems; for the high-level aqueduct at
      >
      > > > > Caesarea, and the Wadi el-Biyar dam in the Solomons Pool system
      >
      > > > > outside Jerusalem.
      > > > > David Stacey
      > > > >
      > > > > --- In ANE-2@yahoogroups.com < ,
      > Joe
      > > > Zias
      > > > > <joezias@> wrote:
      > > > > >
      > > > > > David Stacey writes in connection to Goransons post the
      > > > > following::The only dams from the Second Temple period of which
      >
      > I
      > > > am
      > > > > >
      > > > > > aware are both considered to be the work of Herod and are
      > > > integral
      > > > > >
      > > > > > parts of the water systems of two of his most prestigious
      > cities,
      > > > > >
      > > > > > Jerusalem and Caesarea (high level aqueduct). Neither would
      > have
      > > > > had
      > > > > >
      > > > > > to withstand the same ferocity of floods as in Qumran.
      > > > > >
      > > > > > I would like to remind readers that a few kms up the road in
      >
      > the
      > > > > 8th millineum BC the folks in Jericho were already constructing
      >
      > > > dams.
      > > > > For the folks in Qumran I doub't if this was any mean feat,
      > some
      > > > > 8,000 yrs later.
      > > > > >
      > > > > > Joe
      > > > > >
      > > > > > Joe Zias www.joezias.com
      > > > > > Anthropology/Paleopathology
      > > > > >
      > > > > > Science and Antiquity Group - Jerusalem
      > > > > > Jerusalem, Israel
      > > > > >
      > >
      >
      >
      >
    • dastacey62
      Of course barrage dams existed in Judea. The point that I m making, if it needs spelling out, is that all of the major dams requiring considerable know-how
      Message 2 of 20 , Mar 3, 2009
        Of course barrage dams existed in Judea. The point that I'm making,
        if it needs spelling out, is that all of the major dams requiring
        considerable know-how and huge resources were instigated by the state
        or the temple. The construction of the dam at Qumran and of the rock-
        cut channel required the sort of labour and financial resources,
        technical expertise and determination demonstrated by Herod in other
        of his building projects and should be associated with his expansion
        of the settlement in 31 BCE. The recent excavations of Magen and
        Peleg would appear to confirm this date.

        David Stacey
        UK

        --- In ANE-2@yahoogroups.com, JEFFREY A BLAKELY <jblakely@...> wrote:
        >
        > Good Morning
        >
        > Barrage dams feeding sluices and watering fields were a bit of
        a "doodle" by even 1200 BC in Yemen. If you look around Saba and
        Qataban evidence for them is all over the place in remnants and in
        agricultural fields built up by the silt in the runoff produced
        during floods. If you want a good example see the Marib Dam, a truly
        massive dam capable of taking on an incredible deluge and a dam that
        was in use for over a millennium. It is hard to believe that the
        knowledge did not reach the other end of the trade route.
        >
        > Jeffrey A. Blakely
        > Madison, WI
        >
        > ----- Original Message -----
        > From: dastacey62 <DAVID.STACEY63@...>
        > Date: Tuesday, March 3, 2009 4:04 am
        > Subject: [ANE-2] Re: ink from a Dead Sea Scroll made near the Dead
        Sea
        > To: ANE-2@yahoogroups.com
        >
        >
        > > Most of these dams are, are they not, on a fairly minor scale and
        > > would not have had to withstand the sort of terrific force
        present
        > > in flash floods as they thunder down Nahal Qumran. The power of
        such
        > >
        > > flash floods is an awesome sight. The dam at Qumran would have
        been 4
        > >
        > > or 5 metres high and would have needed to have walls at least 3m
        > > thick at the base. Yet it probably needed some sort of sluice
        system
        > >
        > > to, if necessary, relieve the pressure of the initial torrent.
        This
        > > required considerable hydrological knowledge and was not your
        average
        > >
        > > agricultural installation.
        > >
        > > David Stacey
        > > -
        > > -- In ANE-2@yahoogroups.com, "theodc25" <chesnut@> wrote:
        > > >
        > > > Quite close to Qumran, is the Buqe'ah Valley which has
        substantial
        > > > evidence of intensive agricultural production including dams,
        > > > terraces, and walls built for pools. The major sites in
        valley are
        > > > Khirbet Abu Tabaq, Khirbet es-Samrah, and Khirbet el-Maqari
        > > partially
        > > > excavated by Cross and Milik, and further research was done by
        > > Stager.
        > > > The sites, terracing, and dams are all dated around the
        8th/7th
        > > > century BCE based on lmlk jars and other pottery found at the
        > > sites.
        > > >
        > > > It has been suggested that much of this area was reused in the
        3rd
        > > > cent BCE-1st cent CE, because of the close proximity of
        Hyrcania, a
        > > > Roman road running through the valley to Qumran, and some late
        > > > Hellenistic/early Roman pottery that was found at the forts.
        Also
        > > I
        > > > thought there were dams around Masada?
        > > >
        > > > Owen Chesnut
        > > > Ph.D. Candidate
        > > > Andrews University
        > > >
        > > >
        > > >
        > > >
        > > > --- In ANE-2@yahoogroups.com, "dastacey62" <DAVID.STACEY63@>
        wrote:
        > > > >
        > > > > Well Joe, that's odd - there are no major dams at Masada or
        > > Jericho
        > > > > where you say they are necessary, and in fact the only two
        major
        > >
        > > > > Second Temple dams are in Caesarea and Jerusalem where you
        say
        > > they
        > > > > are unnecessary... curioser and curiouser
        > > > >
        > > > > David Stacey
        > > > >
        > > > > UK
        > > > > --- In ANE-2@yahoogroups.com, "Joe Zias" <joezias@> wrote:
        > > > > >
        > > > > > David Stacey on the subject of dams in antiquity
        writes "If it
        > >
        > > was
        > > > > all so
        > > > > > easy why didn't every Tom, Dick or Harry build dams all
        over
        > > the
        > > > > country?"
        > > > > > The answer is simple, in the desert areas where rain fall
        is
        > > > > minimal as in
        > > > > > Masada, Qumran and Jericho, dams are necessary to collect
        > > runoff
        > > > > from higher
        > > > > > elevations. In areas where there is adequate seasonal
        rainfall
        > >
        > > or
        > > > > springs,
        > > > > > such as Jerusalem, Caesarea, Beit Shean ect, they are
        > > unnecessary.
        > > > > >
        > > > > >
        > > > > >
        > > > > > Joe Zias
        > > > > >
        > > > > >
        > > > > >
        > > > > > From: ANE-2@yahoogroups.com [mailto:ANE-2@yahoogroups.com]
        On
        > > > > Behalf Of
        > > > > > dastacey62
        > > > > > Sent: Saturday, February 28, 2009 9:51 AM
        > > > > > To: ANE-2@yahoogroups.com
        > > > > > Subject: [ANE-2] Re: ink from a Dead Sea Scroll made near
        the
        > > Dead
        > > > > Sea
        > > > > >
        > > > > >
        > > > > >
        > > > > > So Joe, Building a dam 4 to 5 m high, with walls on
        average
        > > perhaps
        > > > > > 2.5 m thick, perhaps with foundations cut into the
        bedrock, was
        > >
        > > all
        > > > > a
        > > > > > bit of a doddle. The fact that no trace of it has survived
        the
        > >
        > > > > floods
        > > > > > of the past 2000 years indicates the forces it had to
        > > withstand. If
        > > > > > it was all so easy why didn't every Tom, Dick or Harry
        build
        > > dams
        > > > > all
        > > > > > over the country? The fact is that only Herod seems to
        have had
        > >
        > > the
        > > > > > necessary knowledge and resources which he put to use in
        his
        > > two
        > > > > > prestigious city water systems; for the high-level
        aqueduct at
        > >
        > > > > > Caesarea, and the Wadi el-Biyar dam in the Solomons Pool
        system
        > >
        > > > > > outside Jerusalem.
        > > > > > David Stacey
        > > > > >
        > > > > > --- In ANE-2@yahoogroups.com < ,
        > > Joe
        > > > > Zias
        > > > > > <joezias@> wrote:
        > > > > > >
        > > > > > > David Stacey writes in connection to Goransons post the
        > > > > > following::The only dams from the Second Temple period of
        which
        > >
        > > I
        > > > > am
        > > > > > >
        > > > > > > aware are both considered to be the work of Herod and
        are
        > > > > integral
        > > > > > >
        > > > > > > parts of the water systems of two of his most
        prestigious
        > > cities,
        > > > > > >
        > > > > > > Jerusalem and Caesarea (high level aqueduct). Neither
        would
        > > have
        > > > > > had
        > > > > > >
        > > > > > > to withstand the same ferocity of floods as in Qumran.
        > > > > > >
        > > > > > > I would like to remind readers that a few kms up the
        road in
        > >
        > > the
        > > > > > 8th millineum BC the folks in Jericho were already
        constructing
        > >
        > > > > dams.
        > > > > > For the folks in Qumran I doub't if this was any mean
        feat,
        > > some
        > > > > > 8,000 yrs later.
        > > > > > >
        > > > > > > Joe
        > > > > > >
        > > > > > > Joe Zias www.joezias.com
        > > > > > > Anthropology/Paleopathology
        > > > > > >
        > > > > > > Science and Antiquity Group - Jerusalem
        > > > > > > Jerusalem, Israel
        > > > > > >
        > > >
        > >
        > >
        > >
        >
      • JEFFREY A BLAKELY
        Well, I guess the point I wish to make is that a truly major water project, such as the aqueduct system at Caesarea or the Marib dam, certainly would be state
        Message 3 of 20 , Mar 3, 2009
          Well, I guess the point I wish to make is that a truly major water project, such as the aqueduct system at Caesarea or the Marib dam, certainly would be state supported. One the other hand a small barrage dam and channel on a small wadi like at Qumran hardly rises to that level no matter how much force may be coming down the channel on occasion. The technology had been around for a long time.

          Jeff Blakely
          Madison, Wisconsin

          ----- Original Message -----
          From: dastacey62 <DAVID.STACEY63@...>
          Date: Tuesday, March 3, 2009 9:52 am
          Subject: [ANE-2] Re: daming [formerly ink from a Dead Sea Scroll ...]
          To: ANE-2@yahoogroups.com


          > Of course barrage dams existed in Judea. The point that I'm making,
          > if it needs spelling out, is that all of the major dams requiring
          > considerable know-how and huge resources were instigated by the state
          >
          > or the temple. The construction of the dam at Qumran and of the rock-
          > cut channel required the sort of labour and financial resources,
          > technical expertise and determination demonstrated by Herod in other
          >
          > of his building projects and should be associated with his expansion
          >
          > of the settlement in 31 BCE. The recent excavations of Magen and
          > Peleg would appear to confirm this date.
          >
          > David Stacey
          > UK
          >
          > --- In ANE-2@yahoogroups.com, JEFFREY A BLAKELY <jblakely@...> wrote:
          > >
          > > Good Morning
          > >
          > > Barrage dams feeding sluices and watering fields were a bit of
          > a "doodle" by even 1200 BC in Yemen. If you look around Saba and
          > Qataban evidence for them is all over the place in remnants and in
          > agricultural fields built up by the silt in the runoff produced
          > during floods. If you want a good example see the Marib Dam, a truly
          >
          > massive dam capable of taking on an incredible deluge and a dam that
          >
          > was in use for over a millennium. It is hard to believe that the
          > knowledge did not reach the other end of the trade route.
          > >
          > > Jeffrey A. Blakely
          > > Madison, WI
        • dastacey62
          In June 2007 I visited the site of the dam a couple of weeks after a particularly ferocious flood had cleaned out the whole basin down to bedrock (and killed
          Message 4 of 20 , Mar 4, 2009
            In June 2007 I visited the site of the dam a couple of weeks after a particularly ferocious flood had cleaned out the whole basin down to bedrock (and killed two abseilers lower down the wadi). The entrance to the aqueduct some 4 or 5 metres higher was completely inaccessible, not only to an old fart like myself, but also to a young and agile PhD student I was showing around. How exactly the dam was built is hard to reconstruct. Presumably the stones were quarried in the basin itself but there was little room for a ramp to get them to the upper courses of the dam - I know I wouldn't have liked to have been one of the labourers involved - perhaps as it's apparently so insignificant a construction project you have ideas as to how it was built?

            You accept that Caesarea was state supported. Owen Chesnut has mentioned barrages around Hyrcania and Masada, both building projects of Herod, who, incidentally, liked Jericho so much that he built himself three different palaces there, increasing the availablilty of water to them by extending the Hasmonean Na'aran aqueduct to take in the waters of Ein el-Auja some 14 kms to the north which is the same distance as Qumran is to the south. It would seem that Qumran was just a part of his Jericho estate and inter-connected with his other building projects. And archaeologically the date of the dam, which most logically was built together with the so-called- 'main' aqueduct system, can be no earlier than 31 BCE (see my article in DSD 14:2 (2007) - that's 'Dead Sea Discoveries' for those who find these acronyms obscure). This dating will probably be confirmed when the results of Magen and Peleg's excavations (even the preliminary publication was not available to me at the time I was writing the DSD article)are finally published (see Magen and Peleg 2007 p.8 amd fig 11).

            Which takes us back all the way to the start of this correspondence when I asked how a scroll dated by some as early as the second century BCE could have been written in Qumran at a time when there was no possibility of year round occupation?

            David Stacey


            --- In ANE-2@yahoogroups.com, JEFFREY A BLAKELY <jblakely@...> wrote:
            >
            >
            > Well, I guess the point I wish to make is that a truly major water project, such as the aqueduct system at Caesarea or the Marib dam, certainly would be state supported. One the other hand a small barrage dam and channel on a small wadi like at Qumran hardly rises to that level no matter how much force may be coming down the channel on occasion. The technology had been around for a long time.
            >
            > Jeff Blakely
            > Madison, Wisconsin
            >
            > ----- Original Message -----
            > From: dastacey62 <DAVID.STACEY63@...>
            > Date: Tuesday, March 3, 2009 9:52 am
            > Subject: [ANE-2] Re: daming [formerly ink from a Dead Sea Scroll ...]
            > To: ANE-2@yahoogroups.com
            >
            >
            > > Of course barrage dams existed in Judea. The point that I'm making,
            > > if it needs spelling out, is that all of the major dams requiring
            > > considerable know-how and huge resources were instigated by the state
            > >
            > > or the temple. The construction of the dam at Qumran and of the rock-
            > > cut channel required the sort of labour and financial resources,
            > > technical expertise and determination demonstrated by Herod in other
            > >
            > > of his building projects and should be associated with his expansion
            > >
            > > of the settlement in 31 BCE. The recent excavations of Magen and
            > > Peleg would appear to confirm this date.
            > >
            > > David Stacey
            > > UK
            > >
            > > --- In ANE-2@yahoogroups.com, JEFFREY A BLAKELY <jblakely@> wrote:
            > > >
            > > > Good Morning
            > > >
            > > > Barrage dams feeding sluices and watering fields were a bit of
            > > a "doodle" by even 1200 BC in Yemen. If you look around Saba and
            > > Qataban evidence for them is all over the place in remnants and in
            > > agricultural fields built up by the silt in the runoff produced
            > > during floods. If you want a good example see the Marib Dam, a truly
            > >
            > > massive dam capable of taking on an incredible deluge and a dam that
            > >
            > > was in use for over a millennium. It is hard to believe that the
            > > knowledge did not reach the other end of the trade route.
            > > >
            > > > Jeffrey A. Blakely
            > > > Madison, WI
            >
          • JEFFREY A BLAKELY
            Clearly there is nothing at the Qumran dam site that identifies Herod as the builder, or maybe better the conscriptor since I doubt he personally built it.
            Message 5 of 20 , Mar 4, 2009
              Clearly there is nothing at the Qumran dam site that identifies Herod as the builder, or maybe better the conscriptor since I doubt he personally built it. One can certainly reconstruct a Herodian construction view from the extant evidence, just as one can reconstruct a sectarian construction view from that same evidence. We may differ on which is more likely. I will certainly agree with David, however, "I know I wouldn't have liked to have been one of the labourers involved." Its hot down there. On the method of construction, I would guess slowly and carefully during a dry season lest it be washed away. Beyond that we have no evidence.

              Best wishes,
              Jeffrey A. Blakely
              Madison, WI


              ----- Original Message -----
              From: dastacey62 <DAVID.STACEY63@...>
              Date: Wednesday, March 4, 2009 3:03 am
              Subject: [ANE-2] Re: daming [formerly ink from a Dead Sea Scroll ...]
              To: ANE-2@yahoogroups.com


              > In June 2007 I visited the site of the dam a couple of weeks after a
              > particularly ferocious flood had cleaned out the whole basin down to
              > bedrock (and killed two abseilers lower down the wadi). The entrance
              > to the aqueduct some 4 or 5 metres higher was completely inaccessible,
              > not only to an old fart like myself, but also to a young and agile PhD
              > student I was showing around. How exactly the dam was built is hard to
              > reconstruct. Presumably the stones were quarried in the basin itself
              > but there was little room for a ramp to get them to the upper courses
              > of the dam - I know I wouldn't have liked to have been one of the
              > labourers involved - perhaps as it's apparently so insignificant a
              > construction project you have ideas as to how it was built?
              >
              >
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