Loading ...
Sorry, an error occurred while loading the content.

some queries on DSS Ink article

Expand Messages
  • dastacey62
    I have now been able to read the DSD article. I have a couple of questions that someone on the list might be able to answer. The researchers say that in their
    Message 1 of 21 , Mar 3, 2009
    • 0 Attachment
      I have now been able to read the DSD article. I have a couple of
      questions that someone on the list might be able to answer. The
      researchers say that in their control experiments they only 'mixed
      with water from different water sources in the vicinity of the Dead
      Sea'. I have always understood that one of the contributing factors
      for the high salinity of the Dead Sea was the already high salinity
      in the springs at Tabgha on the western shore of Lake Tiberias. This
      water is now channeled around the Lake to prevent it (the Lake)
      becoming increasingly saline but discharges back into the Jordan
      river below the lake and finishes up in the Dead Sea. Would water
      from this source have a high CL/Br ratio?
      As the researchers do not question that the scroll belonged 'to a
      sect which is commonly associated with the Khirbet Qumran settlement'
      were they actually objectively looking for any other possibly
      location in which the scrolls may have been written? They rule out
      the use of gum arabic from acacia widely available around the Dead
      Sea but do not suggest a source for the oak gall which is not.
      The most puzzling thing to me is that they claim that the Cl/Br ratio
      that they detect on both the ink and the parchment suggest that both
      may have been 'produced in the Dead Sea area' presumably utilising
      water from the Dead Sea itself. Would there have been something
      beneficial in using Dead Sea water in the production of both
      parchment and ink? The water most freely available at Qumran itself
      was gathered rain water, the softest source of water around. If, as
      we are told 'carbon inks were usually stored as dry pellets and mixed
      with water directly before writing' why would any supposed scribe at
      Qumran go all the way to the Dead Sea for water with which to mix his
      ink? I support the idea that parchment and other leathers were made
      at Qumran but, again, why not use the rain water avaiable? I am not a
      scientist. Could that the Cl/Br ratio on the parchment result from
      the prolonged soaking in excrement necessary for depilation? Salts
      can be seen crystalising all around the Dead Sea. Could these salts
      be the result of 2000 years in a cave?

      David Stacey
      UK
    • Peter T. Daniels
      If parchment was being made somewhere, wouldn t there be evidence of flocks and herds there? Wouldn t there be evidence of the chemicals involved? And I don t
      Message 2 of 21 , Mar 3, 2009
      • 0 Attachment
        If parchment was being made somewhere, wouldn't there be evidence of flocks and herds there? Wouldn't there be evidence of the chemicals involved? And I don't know what you mean by "other leathers" -- parchment and leather are very different materials, and the procedures for making them are very different.
         --
        Peter T. Daniels grammatim@...
        ________________________________
        From: dastacey62 <DAVID.STACEY63@...>
        To: ANE-2@yahoogroups.com
        Sent: Tuesday, March 3, 2009 4:06:46 AM
        Subject: [ANE-2] some queries on DSS Ink article


        ...

        The most puzzling thing to me is that they claim that the Cl/Br ratio
        that they detect on both the ink and the parchment suggest that both
        may have been 'produced in the Dead Sea area' presumably utilising
        water from the Dead Sea itself. Would there have been something
        beneficial in using Dead Sea water in the production of both
        parchment and ink? The water most freely available at Qumran itself
        was gathered rain water, the softest source of water around. If, as
        we are told 'carbon inks were usually stored as dry pellets and mixed
        with water directly before writing' why would any supposed scribe at
        Qumran go all the way to the Dead Sea for water with which to mix his
        ink? I support the idea that parchment and other leathers were made
        at Qumran but, again, why not use the rain water avaiable? I am not a
        scientist. Could that the Cl/Br ratio on the parchment result from
        the prolonged soaking in excrement necessary for depilation? Salts
        can be seen crystalising all around the Dead Sea. Could these salts
        be the result of 2000 years in a cave?

        David Stacey
        UK
      • dastacey62
        Re flocks:- Seasonal flocks around Qumran. May I draw your attention to my article in BAIAS 26 (2008). Parchment and leather both start off as animal skins but
        Message 3 of 21 , Mar 3, 2009
        • 0 Attachment
          Re flocks:- Seasonal flocks around Qumran. May I draw your attention
          to my article in BAIAS 26 (2008).

          Parchment and leather both start off as animal skins but are
          processed differently (not, in antiquity, with chemicals per se). For
          refs see above article.

          David Stacey

          -- In ANE-2@yahoogroups.com, "Peter T. Daniels" <grammatim@...> wrote:
          >
          >
          > If parchment was being made somewhere, wouldn't there be evidence
          of flocks and herds there? Wouldn't there be evidence of the
          chemicals involved? And I don't know what you mean by "other
          leathers" -- parchment and leather are very different materials, and
          the procedures for making them are very different.
          >  --
          > Peter T. Daniels grammatim@...
          > ________________________________
          > From: dastacey62 <DAVID.STACEY63@...>
          > To: ANE-2@yahoogroups.com
          > Sent: Tuesday, March 3, 2009 4:06:46 AM
          > Subject: [ANE-2] some queries on DSS Ink article
          >
          >
          > ...
          >
          > The most puzzling thing to me is that they claim that the Cl/Br
          ratio
          > that they detect on both the ink and the parchment suggest that
          both
          > may have been 'produced in the Dead Sea area' presumably utilising
          > water from the Dead Sea itself. Would there have been something
          > beneficial in using Dead Sea water in the production of both
          > parchment and ink? The water most freely available at Qumran itself
          > was gathered rain water, the softest source of water around. If, as
          > we are told 'carbon inks were usually stored as dry pellets and
          mixed
          > with water directly before writing' why would any supposed scribe
          at
          > Qumran go all the way to the Dead Sea for water with which to mix
          his
          > ink? I support the idea that parchment and other leathers were made
          > at Qumran but, again, why not use the rain water avaiable? I am not
          a
          > scientist. Could that the Cl/Br ratio on the parchment result from
          > the prolonged soaking in excrement necessary for depilation? Salts
          > can be seen crystalising all around the Dead Sea. Could these salts
          > be the result of 2000 years in a cave?
          >
          > David Stacey
          > UK
          >
        • Joe Zias
          Daniels asks: If parchment was being made somewhere, wouldn t there be evidence of flocks and herds there?   A few yrs back, after listening to all the
          Message 4 of 21 , Mar 3, 2009
          • 0 Attachment
            Daniels asks: " If parchment was being made somewhere, wouldn't there be evidence of flocks and herds there?

             'A few yrs back, after listening to all the controversy over whether or not locus 51 was a toilet or a tabun, or the stable was really a stable, we simply sampled the earth found there in the loci and found human parasites in the toilet and animal parasites in the stable. Both were species specific, thus there were four legged animals there in the stable as De Vaux believed and two legged animals using locus 51.

            Joe Zias

            Joe Zias www.joezias.com
            Anthropology/Paleopathology

            Science and Antiquity Group - Jerusalem
            Jerusalem, Israel

            --- On Tue, 3/3/09, Peter T. Daniels <grammatim@...> wrote:
            From: Peter T. Daniels <grammatim@...>
            Subject: Re: [ANE-2] some queries on DSS Ink article
            To: ANE-2@yahoogroups.com
            Date: Tuesday, March 3, 2009, 7:41 AM














            If parchment was being made somewhere, wouldn't there be evidence of flocks and herds there? Wouldn't there be evidence of the chemicals involved? And I don't know what you mean by "other leathers" -- parchment and leather are very different materials, and the procedures for making them are very different.

             --

            Peter T. Daniels grammatim@verizon. net

            ____________ _________ _________ __

            From: dastacey62 <DAVID.STACEY63@ NTLWORLD. COM>

            To: ANE-2@yahoogroups. com

            Sent: Tuesday, March 3, 2009 4:06:46 AM

            Subject: [ANE-2] some queries on DSS Ink article



            ....



            The most puzzling thing to me is that they claim that the Cl/Br ratio

            that they detect on both the ink and the parchment suggest that both

            may have been 'produced in the Dead Sea area' presumably utilising

            water from the Dead Sea itself. Would there have been something

            beneficial in using Dead Sea water in the production of both

            parchment and ink? The water most freely available at Qumran itself

            was gathered rain water, the softest source of water around. If, as

            we are told 'carbon inks were usually stored as dry pellets and mixed

            with water directly before writing' why would any supposed scribe at

            Qumran go all the way to the Dead Sea for water with which to mix his

            ink? I support the idea that parchment and other leathers were made

            at Qumran but, again, why not use the rain water avaiable? I am not a

            scientist. Could that the Cl/Br ratio on the parchment result from

            the prolonged soaking in excrement necessary for depilation? Salts

            can be seen crystalising all around the Dead Sea. Could these salts

            be the result of 2000 years in a cave?



            David Stacey

            UK


























            [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
          • Michael F. Lane
            Dear all, Can anyone cite for me the best preserved and most intelligible examples of (or at least a good secondary sources on) Mesopotamian tablets of various
            Message 5 of 21 , Mar 3, 2009
            • 0 Attachment
              Dear all,

              Can anyone cite for me the best preserved and most intelligible examples
              of (or at least a good secondary sources on) Mesopotamian tablets of
              various periods that include sketches of what we would call metes and
              bounds of *agricultural fields* in contemporary land surveys. I have come
              across examples here and there, mainly Sumerian, but I would like to have
              the basis for a fuller knowledge.

              In fact, if anyone can refer me to important sources on such records from
              the ANE more broadly, including the Levant and Anatolia, I would be
              grateful.

              With best regards,

              Michael F. Lane
              University of Maryland, Baltimore County
            • Peter T. Daniels
              Are sheep, goats, and kine (the animals most likely to be turned into parchment, as also pigs are) housed in stables?  -- Peter T. Daniels
              Message 6 of 21 , Mar 3, 2009
              • 0 Attachment
                Are sheep, goats, and kine (the animals most likely to be turned into parchment, as also pigs are) housed in stables? 
                --
                Peter T. Daniels grammatim@...
                ________________________________
                From: Joe Zias <joezias@...>
                To: ANE-2@yahoogroups.com
                Sent: Tuesday, March 3, 2009 8:17:20 AM
                Subject: Re: [ANE-2] some queries on DSS Ink article

                Daniels asks: " If parchment was being made somewhere, wouldn't there be evidence of flocks and herds there?

                 'A few yrs back, after listening to all the controversy over whether or not locus 51 was a toilet or a tabun, or the stable was really a stable, we simply sampled the earth found there in the loci and found human parasites in the toilet and animal parasites in the stable. Both were species specific, thus there were four legged animals there in the stable as De Vaux believed and two legged animals using locus 51.

                Joe Zias

                Joe Zias www.joezias. com
                Anthropology/ Paleopathology
              • Joe Zias
                We found the liver fluke, sheep/goats. There are wild boar in the oasis s I m told but the area is not hospitable to swine in terms of large numbers. Their
                Message 7 of 21 , Mar 3, 2009
                • 0 Attachment
                  We found the liver fluke, sheep/goats. There are wild boar in the oasis's I'm told but the area is not hospitable to swine in terms of large numbers. Their feces are however fatal in terms of water contamination, the situation in Calif. a few months back was a prime example of the danger. And remember the water supply there was pretty much open, above ground.

                  Joe Zias www.joezias.com
                  Anthropology/Paleopathology

                  Science and Antiquity Group - Jerusalem
                  Jerusalem, Israel

                  --- On Tue, 3/3/09, Peter T. Daniels <grammatim@...> wrote:
                  From: Peter T. Daniels <grammatim@...>
                  Subject: Re: [ANE-2] some queries on DSS Ink article
                  To: ANE-2@yahoogroups.com
                  Date: Tuesday, March 3, 2009, 10:31 AM














                  Are sheep, goats, and kine (the animals most likely to be turned into parchment, as also pigs are) housed in stables? 

                  --

                  Peter T. Daniels grammatim@verizon. net

                  ____________ _________ _________ __

                  From: Joe Zias <joezias@yahoo. com>

                  To: ANE-2@yahoogroups. com

                  Sent: Tuesday, March 3, 2009 8:17:20 AM

                  Subject: Re: [ANE-2] some queries on DSS Ink article



                  Daniels asks: " If parchment was being made somewhere, wouldn't there be evidence of flocks and herds there?



                   'A few yrs back, after listening to all the controversy over whether or not locus 51 was a toilet or a tabun, or the stable was really a stable, we simply sampled the earth found there in the loci and found human parasites in the toilet and animal parasites in the stable. Both were species specific, thus there were four legged animals there in the stable as De Vaux believed and two legged animals using locus 51.



                  Joe Zias



                  Joe Zias www.joezias. com

                  Anthropology/ Paleopathology


























                  [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                • Trudy Kawami
                  Ovi-caprids & bovids (sheep, goats & cattle) are not usually housed in the NE. But there can be a variety of reasons, lambing/calving, protection from
                  Message 8 of 21 , Mar 3, 2009
                  • 0 Attachment
                    Ovi-caprids & bovids (sheep, goats & cattle) are not usually housed in
                    the NE. But there can be a variety of reasons, lambing/calving,
                    protection from predators or raiders & such, for penning them at nigh,
                    at least occasionally. You can also use a fixed feeding place or salt
                    lick to condition the animals to come to a certain spot when you need to
                    shear or cull them. All of these activities would produce a substantial
                    deposit of parasites. Similar studies have located the placement of
                    corrals or holding pens for horses in the Eurasian steppe where no stone
                    or mud brick was used.

                    Unfortunately archaeologists often use the word stable which in English
                    signifies a horse-holding facility, usually with a roof and sometimes
                    subdivisions. It also suggests a certain size and substance distinct
                    from an un-roofed pen. A little parasitology might confirm if cattle
                    were present, merely sheep/goats or pigs as well. Most parasites are
                    species-specific.

                    Trudy Kawami



                    ________________________________

                    From: ANE-2@yahoogroups.com [mailto:ANE-2@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of
                    Peter T. Daniels
                    Sent: Tuesday, March 03, 2009 10:32 AM
                    To: ANE-2@yahoogroups.com
                    Subject: Re: [ANE-2] some queries on DSS Ink article




                    Are sheep, goats, and kine (the animals most likely to be turned into
                    parchment, as also pigs are) housed in stables?
                    --
                    Peter T. Daniels grammatim@... <mailto:grammatim%40verizon.net>

                    ________________________________
                    From: Joe Zias <joezias@... <mailto:joezias%40yahoo.com> >
                    To: ANE-2@yahoogroups.com <mailto:ANE-2%40yahoogroups.com>
                    Sent: Tuesday, March 3, 2009 8:17:20 AM
                    Subject: Re: [ANE-2] some queries on DSS Ink article

                    Daniels asks: " If parchment was being made somewhere, wouldn't there be
                    evidence of flocks and herds there?

                    'A few yrs back, after listening to all the controversy over whether or
                    not locus 51 was a toilet or a tabun, or the stable was really a stable,
                    we simply sampled the earth found there in the loci and found human
                    parasites in the toilet and animal parasites in the stable. Both were
                    species specific, thus there were four legged animals there in the
                    stable as De Vaux believed and two legged animals using locus 51.

                    Joe Zias

                    Joe Zias www.joezias. com
                    Anthropology/ Paleopathology





                    [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                  • Trudy Kawami
                    That makes a lot of sense; Qumran is not cattle country by a long shot. Wild pigs are surprisingly common, though not numerous, throughout the NE. All they
                    Message 9 of 21 , Mar 3, 2009
                    • 0 Attachment
                      That makes a lot of sense; Qumran is not cattle country by a long shot.
                      Wild pigs are surprisingly common, though not numerous, throughout the
                      NE. All they need is some water & reeds to hide in. Their proliferation
                      in California is a good example of how they can adapt to their
                      environment. (We now have a problem in Pennsylvania as well.) They can
                      utterly destroy small "kitchen gardens" in one night, another reason for
                      their bad reputation.

                      Trudy Kawami

                      ________________________________

                      From: ANE-2@yahoogroups.com [mailto:ANE-2@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of
                      Joe Zias
                      Sent: Tuesday, March 03, 2009 11:00 AM
                      To: ANE-2@yahoogroups.com
                      Subject: Re: [ANE-2] some queries on DSS Ink article



                      We found the liver fluke, sheep/goats. There are wild boar in the
                      oasis's I'm told but the area is not hospitable to swine in terms of
                      large numbers. Their feces are however fatal in terms of water
                      contamination, the situation in Calif. a few months back was a prime
                      example of the danger. And remember the water supply there was pretty
                      much open, above ground.

                      Joe Zias www.joezias.com
                      Anthropology/Paleopathology

                      Science and Antiquity Group - Jerusalem
                      Jerusalem, Israel

                      --- On Tue, 3/3/09, Peter T. Daniels <grammatim@...
                      <mailto:grammatim%40verizon.net> > wrote:
                      From: Peter T. Daniels <grammatim@...
                      <mailto:grammatim%40verizon.net> >
                      Subject: Re: [ANE-2] some queries on DSS Ink article
                      To: ANE-2@yahoogroups.com <mailto:ANE-2%40yahoogroups.com>
                      Date: Tuesday, March 3, 2009, 10:31 AM

                      Are sheep, goats, and kine (the animals most likely to be turned into
                      parchment, as also pigs are) housed in stables?

                      --

                      Peter T. Daniels grammatim@verizon. net

                      ____________ _________ _________ __

                      From: Joe Zias <joezias@yahoo. com>

                      To: ANE-2@yahoogroups. com

                      Sent: Tuesday, March 3, 2009 8:17:20 AM

                      Subject: Re: [ANE-2] some queries on DSS Ink article

                      Daniels asks: " If parchment was being made somewhere, wouldn't there be
                      evidence of flocks and herds there?

                      'A few yrs back, after listening to all the controversy over whether or
                      not locus 51 was a toilet or a tabun, or the stable was really a stable,
                      we simply sampled the earth found there in the loci and found human
                      parasites in the toilet and animal parasites in the stable. Both were
                      species specific, thus there were four legged animals there in the
                      stable as De Vaux believed and two legged animals using locus 51.

                      Joe Zias

                      Joe Zias www.joezias. com

                      Anthropology/ Paleopathology











                      [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]





                      [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                    • Peter T. Daniels
                      I bracketed the pigs because, at this date, it s rather unlikely that they might have used pig parchment, especially for holy books. Do any chemical analyses
                      Message 10 of 21 , Mar 3, 2009
                      • 0 Attachment
                        I bracketed the pigs because, at this date, it's rather unlikely that they might have used pig parchment, especially for holy books.

                        Do any chemical analyses of the soil or sediments show any substances associated with parchment- or leather-making? (Parchment involves "liming," so presumably there would be traces of quicklime or its byproducts. Leather-making is more familiar, and if you found tanning residue, you'd know it.) 

                        If you can keep your sheep indoors, you can't have had very many of them. Certainly not enough to supply the writing needs of an active scriptorium ... which the ink analysis folks seem to be heading back to.
                        --
                        Peter T. Daniels grammatim@...
                        ________________________________
                        From: Joe Zias <joezias@...>
                        To: ANE-2@yahoogroups.com
                        Sent: Tuesday, March 3, 2009 11:00:14 AM
                        Subject: Re: [ANE-2] some queries on DSS Ink article


                        We found the liver fluke, sheep/goats. There are wild boar in the oasis's I'm told but the area is not hospitable to swine in terms of large numbers. Their feces are however fatal in terms of water contamination, the situation in Calif. a few months back was a prime example of the danger. And remember the water supply there was pretty much open, above ground.

                        Joe Zias www.joezias. com
                        Anthropology/ Paleopathology

                        Science and Antiquity Group - Jerusalem
                        Jerusalem, Israel

                        --- On Tue, 3/3/09, Peter T. Daniels <grammatim@verizon. net> wrote:
                        From: Peter T. Daniels <grammatim@verizon. net>
                        Subject: Re: [ANE-2] some queries on DSS Ink article
                        To: ANE-2@yahoogroups. com
                        Date: Tuesday, March 3, 2009, 10:31 AM

                        Are sheep, goats, and kine (the animals most likely to be turned into parchment, as also pigs are) housed in stables? 
                        --
                        Peter T. Daniels grammatim@verizon. net

                        ____________ _________ _________ __

                        From: Joe Zias <joezias@yahoo. com>

                        To: ANE-2@yahoogroups. com

                        Sent: Tuesday, March 3, 2009 8:17:20 AM

                        Subject: Re: [ANE-2] some queries on DSS Ink article

                        Daniels asks: " If parchment was being made somewhere, wouldn't there be evidence of flocks and herds there?

                         'A few yrs back, after listening to all the controversy over whether or not locus 51 was a toilet or a tabun, or the stable was really a stable, we simply sampled the earth found there in the loci and found human parasites in the toilet and animal parasites in the stable. Both were species specific, thus there were four legged animals there in the stable as De Vaux believed and two legged animals using locus 51.

                        Joe Zias

                        Joe Zias www.joezias. com
                      • ihutchesson
                        ... Hi Joe. Is there a bibliographic pointer for this analysis? It s quite an interesting fact. ... I fear the fact that the water system is now above ground
                        Message 11 of 21 , Mar 6, 2009
                        • 0 Attachment
                          --- In ANE-2@yahoogroups.com, Joe Zias <joezias@...> wrote:
                          >
                          > We found the liver fluke, sheep/goats. There are wild boar in
                          > the oasis's I'm told but the area is not hospitable to swine in
                          > terms of large numbers.

                          Hi Joe.

                          Is there a bibliographic pointer for this analysis? It's quite an interesting fact.

                          > Their feces are however fatal in terms of water contamination,
                          > the situation in Calif. a few months back was a prime example of
                          > the danger. And remember the water supply there was pretty much
                          > open, above ground.

                          I fear the fact that the water system is now above ground is the result of the archaeological dig, not the builders of the water system. The water channel was sumped at the SE of L132, obviously to stop sediments from going down the channel. Do you think they would have left it open so that the water they wanted to keep got dirty? There are still a few traces of the stones covering the channel to be seen.


                          Ian Hutchesson
                        • Joe Zias
                          Shalom, I ve published 2 or 3 articles on the parasites, it s probably here... All were in Revue d Qumran. I ve given all my reprints away , maybe you could
                          Message 12 of 21 , Mar 6, 2009
                          • 0 Attachment
                            Shalom, I've published 2 or 3 articles on the parasites, it's probably here... All were in Revue d Qumran. I've given all my reprints away , maybe you could find it on line.





                              
                            1.   Toilet practices among the Essene community at Qumran (Harter, Bouchet,
                            Mumcuoglu, Zias) in Revue d Qumran 2004.



                            Joe Zias www.joezias.com
                            Anthropology/Paleopathology

                            Science and Antiquity Group - Jerusalem
                            Jerusalem, Israel

                            --- On Fri, 3/6/09, ihutchesson <ihutchesson@...> wrote:

                            From: ihutchesson <ihutchesson@...>
                            Subject: [ANE-2] Re: some queries on DSS Ink article
                            To: ANE-2@yahoogroups.com
                            Date: Friday, March 6, 2009, 8:56 AM












                            --- In ANE-2@yahoogroups. com, Joe Zias <joezias@... > wrote:

                            >

                            > We found the liver fluke, sheep/goats. There are wild boar in

                            > the oasis's I'm told but the area is not hospitable to swine in

                            > terms of large numbers.



                            Hi Joe.



                            Is there a bibliographic pointer for this analysis? It's quite an interesting fact.



                            > Their feces are however fatal in terms of water contamination,

                            > the situation in Calif. a few months back was a prime example of

                            > the danger. And remember the water supply there was pretty much

                            > open, above ground.



                            I fear the fact that the water system is now above ground is the result of the archaeological dig, not the builders of the water system. The water channel was sumped at the SE of L132, obviously to stop sediments from going down the channel. Do you think they would have left it open so that the water they wanted to keep got dirty? There are still a few traces of the stones covering the channel to be seen.



                            Ian Hutchesson




























                            [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                          • Joe Zias
                            I was there last week, traces of fecal material from the rains clearly seen in the channel and remember it s the virus s/bacteria which cannot be seen which
                            Message 13 of 21 , Mar 6, 2009
                            • 0 Attachment
                              I was there last week, traces of fecal material from the rains clearly seen in the channel and remember it's the virus's/bacteria which cannot be seen which get you in the end.
                              I've tested the water (IL dept of health) and the runoff is highly contaminated, prob. is that tests show e-coli but not from which animal and some are benign


                              Joe Zias www.joezias.com
                              Anthropology/Paleopathology

                              Science and Antiquity Group - Jerusalem
                              Jerusalem, Israel

                              --- On Fri, 3/6/09, ihutchesson <ihutchesson@...> wrote:

                              From: ihutchesson <ihutchesson@...>
                              Subject: [ANE-2] Re: some queries on DSS Ink article
                              To: ANE-2@yahoogroups.com
                              Date: Friday, March 6, 2009, 8:56 AM












                              --- In ANE-2@yahoogroups. com, Joe Zias <joezias@... > wrote:

                              >

                              > We found the liver fluke, sheep/goats. There are wild boar in

                              > the oasis's I'm told but the area is not hospitable to swine in

                              > terms of large numbers.



                              Hi Joe.



                              Is there a bibliographic pointer for this analysis? It's quite an interesting fact.



                              > Their feces are however fatal in terms of water contamination,

                              > the situation in Calif. a few months back was a prime example of

                              > the danger. And remember the water supply there was pretty much

                              > open, above ground.



                              I fear the fact that the water system is now above ground is the result of the archaeological dig, not the builders of the water system. The water channel was sumped at the SE of L132, obviously to stop sediments from going down the channel. Do you think they would have left it open so that the water they wanted to keep got dirty? There are still a few traces of the stones covering the channel to be seen.



                              Ian Hutchesson




























                              [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                            • David Hall
                              Cholera, polio, and dysentery were human diseases passed through contact with or by drinking polluted water.  Cases of cholera recorded by Dr. Torrance of the
                              Message 14 of 21 , Mar 6, 2009
                              • 0 Attachment
                                Cholera, polio, and dysentery were human diseases passed through contact with or by drinking polluted water.  Cases of cholera recorded by Dr. Torrance of the Tiberias Scottish Mission Hospital in the 19th century were attributed to women who had household members infected with cholera washing their clothes at a section of lakeside beach where women went to draw water.  The disease spread quickly through the community. 
                                 
                                The use of the mikveh may have begun after 150 B.C. during Hasmonean times.  This may have indicated a time when a type of observance of this particular law of Moses' ritual purity began.  It is not proven when the actual law was written as this may have differed from the time it was observed by use of the mikveh.  The mikveh was a community dipping pool for cleansing one's body, clothes, and certain new food and beverage utensils, or used metal or glass utensils suspected of being unclean.  The use of the mikveh had become less widespread by the end of the first century A.D.
                                 
                                There were likely problems with the Roman baths as polio that caused paralysis was caused by bathing in water polluted by bathers. Where people bathed or discharged sewage near areas that were used for drawing drinking water were also likely to become sources of disease.  The first modern medical description of polio was by Heine in 1840, although conditions of paralysis were described as far back as Roman times.  The Christians did not require immersion for ritual purity, except once in a lifetime, and sometimes the fresh water was poured over the head rather than full immersion in a river for baptism.  Eventually the work of Pasteur and Salk developed vaccines to prevent cholera and polio. 

                                Qumran Park has some first century mikvehs on display.  The Dead Sea sectarian scrolls describe the use of a mikveh:  4Q270  "...a man may not wash in water that is filthy and too shallow to make a ripple, a man may not purify any dish in such water..." Dead Sea Scrolls, Wise, Abegg, and Cook, 1996, HarperCollins.

                                Mark 7:2-4 (ASV public domain)
                                 
                                2 and had seen that some of his disciples ate their bread with defiled, that is, unwashen, hands.
                                3 (For the Pharisees, and all the Jews, except they wash their hands diligently, eat not, holding the tradition of the elders;
                                4 and when they come from the market-place, except they bathe themselves, they eat not; and many other things there are, which they have received to hold, washings of cups, and pots, and brasen vessels.)

                                The washing of pots, pitchers, and cups in the mikveh was not sanitary as the water where people bathed was subject ot fecal contamination. A pitcher used to wash one's hands was suspect to spreading epidemic disease.

                                The practical use of mikvehs for bathing and washing utensils described in both 4Q270 and the Gospel According to Mark may be compared to similar instances in the Talmud, all 72 volumes, one publisher sold 73. 

                                The primary vectors for spread of flukes (found at Qumran according to Joe Zias) was described in the first paragraph of this article:

                                http://www.parasite-cleanse.com/fluke-parasite.html

                                David Q. Hall   
                                dqhall59@...


                                --- On Fri, 3/6/09, Joe Zias <joezias@...> wrote:

                                From: Joe Zias <joezias@...>
                                Subject: Re: [ANE-2] Re: some queries on DSS Ink article
                                To: ANE-2@yahoogroups.com
                                Date: Friday, March 6, 2009, 2:32 PM






                                Shalom, I've published 2 or 3 articles on the parasites, it's probably here... All were in Revue d Qumran. I've given all my reprints away , maybe you could find it on line.

                                  
                                1.   Toilet practices among the Essene community at Qumran (Harter, Bouchet,
                                Mumcuoglu, Zias) in Revue d Qumran 2004.

                                Joe Zias www.joezias. com
                                Anthropology/ Paleopathology

                                Science and Antiquity Group - Jerusalem
                                Jerusalem, Israel

                                --- On Fri, 3/6/09, ihutchesson <ihutchesson@ yahoo.com> wrote:

                                From: ihutchesson <ihutchesson@ yahoo.com>
                                Subject: [ANE-2] Re: some queries on DSS Ink article
                                To: ANE-2@yahoogroups. com
                                Date: Friday, March 6, 2009, 8:56 AM

                                --- In ANE-2@yahoogroups. com, Joe Zias <joezias@... > wrote:

                                >

                                > We found the liver fluke, sheep/goats. There are wild boar in

                                > the oasis's I'm told but the area is not hospitable to swine in

                                > terms of large numbers.

                                Hi Joe.

                                Is there a bibliographic pointer for this analysis? It's quite an interesting fact.

                                > Their feces are however fatal in terms of water contamination,

                                > the situation in Calif. a few months back was a prime example of

                                > the danger. And remember the water supply there was pretty much

                                > open, above ground.

                                I fear the fact that the water system is now above ground is the result of the archaeological dig, not the builders of the water system. The water channel was sumped at the SE of L132, obviously to stop sediments from going down the channel. Do you think they would have left it open so that the water they wanted to keep got dirty? There are still a few traces of the stones covering the channel to be seen.

                                Ian Hutchesson











                                [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                              • ihutchesson
                                Thanks, Joe. Much appreciated. Ian Hutchesson
                                Message 15 of 21 , Mar 6, 2009
                                • 0 Attachment
                                  Thanks, Joe. Much appreciated.

                                  Ian Hutchesson

                                  > Shalom, I've published 2 or 3 articles on the parasites, it's
                                  > probably here... All were in Revue d Qumran.
                                  >   
                                  > 1.   Toilet practices among the Essene community at Qumran (Harter,
                                  > Bouchet, Mumcuoglu, Zias) in Revue d Qumran 2004.
                                  >
                                  > Joe Zias www.joezias.com
                                • ihutchesson
                                  Just so that I understand correctly here, you re talking about fecal material that has recently washed down into the site and along the main channel. Is that
                                  Message 16 of 21 , Mar 7, 2009
                                  • 0 Attachment
                                    Just so that I understand correctly here, you're talking about fecal material that has recently washed down into the site and along the main channel. Is that right? Or is there some implication to be gathered about the situation 2000 years ago?

                                    Thanks.


                                    Ian Hutchesson

                                    --- In ANE-2@yahoogroups.com, Joe Zias <joezias@...> wrote:
                                    >
                                    > I was there last week, traces of fecal material from the rains
                                    > clearly seen in the channel and remember it's the virus's/bacteria
                                    > which cannot be seen which get you in the end.
                                    > I've tested the water (IL dept of health) and the runoff is highly
                                    > contaminated, prob. is that tests show e-coli but not from which
                                    > animal and some are benign
                                    >
                                    >
                                    > Joe Zias www.joezias.com
                                  • Joe Zias
                                    What you see today would mirror the situation in the past as there has not been any serious bldg in the area for thousands of years, I climbed the cliffs, got
                                    Message 17 of 21 , Mar 7, 2009
                                    • 0 Attachment
                                      What you see today would mirror the situation in the past as there has not been any serious bldg in the area for thousands of years, I climbed the cliffs, got the water from the pools and despite what Stacey says, it's possible and I got a few yrs on him. As for those dams which folks were talking about, someone said that there was no dam at Masada, there were, according to the current excavator, there were two and higher and a lower one. My impression from my Qumran climb was that there may have not been a need for a dam there as the channel was close to a natural depression in the bed rock which would have channeled the flash floods into the aqueduct. Animal fecal material was everywhere, washed down from the higher elevations.

                                      Joe

                                      Joe Zias www.joezias.com
                                      Anthropology/Paleopathology

                                      Science and Antiquity Group - Jerusalem
                                      Jerusalem, Israel

                                      --- On Sat, 3/7/09, ihutchesson <ihutchesson@...> wrote:

                                      From: ihutchesson <ihutchesson@...>
                                      Subject: [ANE-2] Animal parasites (Was: some queries on DSS Ink article)
                                      To: ANE-2@yahoogroups.com
                                      Date: Saturday, March 7, 2009, 3:39 AM












                                      Just so that I understand correctly here, you're talking about fecal material that has recently washed down into the site and along the main channel. Is that right? Or is there some implication to be gathered about the situation 2000 years ago?



                                      Thanks.



                                      Ian Hutchesson



                                      --- In ANE-2@yahoogroups. com, Joe Zias <joezias@... > wrote:

                                      >

                                      > I was there last week, traces of fecal material from the rains

                                      > clearly seen in the channel and remember it's the virus's/bacteria

                                      > which cannot be seen which get you in the end.

                                      > I've tested the water (IL dept of health) and the runoff is highly

                                      > contaminated, prob. is that tests show e-coli but not from which

                                      > animal and some are benign

                                      >

                                      >

                                      > Joe Zias www.joezias. com




























                                      [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                                    • ihutchesson
                                      ... Hi Joe. I don t know what you are basing your need call on here, Joe, but the dam s existence is fairly strong. The aqueduct is not a makeshift adaption to
                                      Message 18 of 21 , Mar 10, 2009
                                      • 0 Attachment
                                        --- In ANE-2@yahoogroups.com, Joe Zias <joezias@...> wrote:
                                        >
                                        > What you see today would mirror the situation in the past as
                                        > there has not been any serious bldg in the area for thousands
                                        > of years, I climbed the cliffs, got the water from the pools
                                        > and despite what Stacey says, it's possible and I got a few
                                        > yrs on him. As for those dams which folks were talking about,
                                        > someone said that there was no dam at Masada, there were,
                                        > according to the current excavator, there were two and higher
                                        > and a lower one. My impression from my Qumran climb was that
                                        > there may have not been a need for a dam there as the channel
                                        > was close to a natural depression in the bed rock which would
                                        > have channeled the flash floods into the aqueduct. Animal fecal
                                        > material was everywhere, washed down from the higher elevations.

                                        Hi Joe.

                                        I don't know what you are basing your need call on here, Joe, but the dam's existence is fairly strong. The aqueduct is not a makeshift adaption to the available terrain, but includes stretches of channel cut through solid rock, the latter part which takes the water away from the ravine is as impressive as it is hard on the knees. The channel doesn't start at some natural sink, as you might expect, but hugs the northern wall of the gorge, ending at a location that best makes sense if one considers the notion of a dam wall. If you spent the resources to cut that tunnel, I think you'd go the extra distance to build the dam wall.

                                        Without the dam a year round water supply becomes precarious. (I'm sure you'd want to be sure you had water all the year, wouldn't you?) The water system from the ravine down on through Qumran was covered to protect the water.

                                        As to the idea of parasites washing down into the water system in ancient times, I wouldn't know. I don't know anything about the density of heard population that would have used the catchment area for grazing. But as to the parasite traces found in the "stables", I guess you mean L.97 and perhaps L.96, is that right?


                                        Ian Hutchesson
                                      • Joan Griffith
                                        In my area, it is usually the ducks & geese that gather on the beaches... but e coli is e. coli. Joan H Griffith ... -- Joan For my part I know nothing with
                                        Message 19 of 21 , Mar 10, 2009
                                        • 0 Attachment
                                          In my area, it is usually the ducks & geese that gather on the beaches...
                                          but e coli is e. coli.
                                          Joan H Griffith
                                          On Sat, Mar 7, 2009 at 4:39 AM, ihutchesson <ihutchesson@...> wrote:

                                          > Just so that I understand correctly here, you're talking about fecal
                                          > material that has recently washed down into the site and along the main
                                          > channel. Is that right? Or is there some implication to be gathered about
                                          > the situation 2000 years ago?
                                          >
                                          > Thanks.
                                          >
                                          > Ian Hutchesson
                                          >
                                          > --- In ANE-2@yahoogroups.com <ANE-2%40yahoogroups.com>, Joe Zias <joezias@...>
                                          > wrote:
                                          > >
                                          > > I was there last week, traces of fecal material from the rains
                                          > > clearly seen in the channel and remember it's the virus's/bacteria
                                          > > which cannot be seen which get you in the end.
                                          > > I've tested the water (IL dept of health) and the runoff is highly
                                          > > contaminated, prob. is that tests show e-coli but not from which
                                          > > animal and some are benign
                                          > >
                                          > >
                                          > > Joe Zias www.joezias.com
                                          >
                                          >
                                          >



                                          --
                                          Joan
                                          For my part I know nothing with any certainty, but the sight of the stars
                                          makes me dream.~ Vincent van Gogh


                                          [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                                        • Joe Zias
                                          Water all year they had that s for sure with all those cisterns, mikvot. As for a dam, I followed the aqueduct from the beginning, in and through the cliffs
                                          Message 20 of 21 , Mar 10, 2009
                                          • 0 Attachment
                                            Water all year they had that's for sure with all those cisterns, mikvot. As for a dam, I followed the aqueduct from the beginning, in and through the cliffs down to the site. There may have once been a dam as according to the excvator of Masada there were prob. two, one having been washed away. These devices, like terraces, must be mainainted, if they were there, though I did not see one while climbing the cliffs.

                                            Joe Zias


                                            Joe Zias www.joezias.com
                                            Anthropology/Paleopathology

                                            Science and Antiquity Group - Jerusalem
                                            Jerusalem, Israel

                                            --- On Tue, 3/10/09, ihutchesson <ihutchesson@...> wrote:

                                            From: ihutchesson <ihutchesson@...>
                                            Subject: [ANE-2] Re: Animal parasites (Was: some queries on DSS Ink article)
                                            To: ANE-2@yahoogroups.com
                                            Date: Tuesday, March 10, 2009, 2:29 PM












                                            --- In ANE-2@yahoogroups. com, Joe Zias <joezias@... > wrote:

                                            >

                                            > What you see today would mirror the situation in the past as

                                            > there has not been any serious bldg in the area for thousands

                                            > of years, I climbed the cliffs, got the water from the pools

                                            > and despite what Stacey says, it's possible and I got a few

                                            > yrs on him. As for those dams which folks were talking about,

                                            > someone said that there was no dam at Masada, there were,

                                            > according to the current excavator, there were two and higher

                                            > and a lower one. My impression from my Qumran climb was that

                                            > there may have not been a need for a dam there as the channel

                                            > was close to a natural depression in the bed rock which would

                                            > have channeled the flash floods into the aqueduct. Animal fecal

                                            > material was everywhere, washed down from the higher elevations.



                                            Hi Joe.



                                            I don't know what you are basing your need call on here, Joe, but the dam's existence is fairly strong. The aqueduct is not a makeshift adaption to the available terrain, but includes stretches of channel cut through solid rock, the latter part which takes the water away from the ravine is as impressive as it is hard on the knees. The channel doesn't start at some natural sink, as you might expect, but hugs the northern wall of the gorge, ending at a location that best makes sense if one considers the notion of a dam wall. If you spent the resources to cut that tunnel, I think you'd go the extra distance to build the dam wall.



                                            Without the dam a year round water supply becomes precarious. (I'm sure you'd want to be sure you had water all the year, wouldn't you?) The water system from the ravine down on through Qumran was covered to protect the water.



                                            As to the idea of parasites washing down into the water system in ancient times, I wouldn't know. I don't know anything about the density of heard population that would have used the catchment area for grazing. But as to the parasite traces found in the "stables", I guess you mean L.97 and perhaps L.96, is that right?



                                            Ian Hutchesson






























                                            [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                                          • Joe Zias
                                            Joan writes ...but e coli is e. coli.   Whereas there are many different types of e-coli, some are dangerous, some are fatal, most are harmless and some are
                                            Message 21 of 21 , Mar 10, 2009
                                            • 0 Attachment
                                              Joan writes '...but e coli is e. coli.'  Whereas there are many different types of e-coli, some are dangerous, some are fatal, most are harmless and some are beneficial. I guarantee you that when you are buying food in the mkts. you are usually ingesting some, whether you know it or not.

                                              Joe Zias www.joezias.com
                                              Anthropology/Paleopathology

                                              Science and Antiquity Group - Jerusalem
                                              Jerusalem, Israel

                                              --- On Tue, 3/10/09, Joan Griffith <despinne@...> wrote:

                                              From: Joan Griffith <despinne@...>
                                              Subject: Re: [ANE-2] Animal parasites (Was: some queries on DSS Ink article)
                                              To: ANE-2@yahoogroups.com
                                              Date: Tuesday, March 10, 2009, 2:41 PM












                                              In my area, it is usually the ducks & geese that gather on the beaches...

                                              but e coli is e. coli.

                                              Joan H Griffith

                                              On Sat, Mar 7, 2009 at 4:39 AM, ihutchesson <ihutchesson@ yahoo.com> wrote:



                                              > Just so that I understand correctly here, you're talking about fecal

                                              > material that has recently washed down into the site and along the main

                                              > channel. Is that right? Or is there some implication to be gathered about

                                              > the situation 2000 years ago?

                                              >

                                              > Thanks.

                                              >

                                              > Ian Hutchesson

                                              >

                                              > --- In ANE-2@yahoogroups. com <ANE-2%40yahoogroup s.com>, Joe Zias <joezias@... >

                                              > wrote:

                                              > >

                                              > > I was there last week, traces of fecal material from the rains

                                              > > clearly seen in the channel and remember it's the virus's/bacteria

                                              > > which cannot be seen which get you in the end.

                                              > > I've tested the water (IL dept of health) and the runoff is highly

                                              > > contaminated, prob. is that tests show e-coli but not from which

                                              > > animal and some are benign

                                              > >

                                              > >

                                              > > Joe Zias www.joezias. com

                                              >

                                              >

                                              >



                                              --

                                              Joan

                                              For my part I know nothing with any certainty, but the sight of the stars

                                              makes me dream.~ Vincent van Gogh



                                              [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]




























                                              [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                                            Your message has been successfully submitted and would be delivered to recipients shortly.