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Re: [ANE-2] Re: masters, disciples, and prayers

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  • Jeffrey B. Gibson
    ... It was? Can you provide some documentation for this claim? Jeffrey -- Jeffrey B. Gibson, D.Phil. (Oxon) 1500 W. Pratt Blvd. Chicago, Illinois e-mail
    Message 1 of 14 , Mar 1 5:27 AM
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      Graham Hagens wrote:
      > --- On Wed, 2/25/09, Jeffrey B. Gibson <jgibson000@...> wrote:
      >
      > "Please note that I'm not looking for speculation about what might have
      > happened if someone had disciples. I'm looking for actual evidence of
      > that those who had disciples also actually did a specific thing."
      >
      > I find myself wondering whether the reason this is a difficult question to answer may be because teaching disciples to pray - or indeed teaching disciples to think in any novel way at all - was a dangerous, even revolutionary activity in the ANE.
      >
      It was? Can you provide some documentation for this claim?

      Jeffrey

      --
      Jeffrey B. Gibson, D.Phil. (Oxon)
      1500 W. Pratt Blvd.
      Chicago, Illinois
      e-mail jgibson000@...
    • Graham Hagens
      It was? Can you provide some documentation for this claim? Jeffrey Teaching of new ideas in the ANE as a dangerous occupation?   Where to begin?   Just a
      Message 2 of 14 , Mar 4 12:31 PM
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        'It was? Can you provide some documentation for this claim?'
        Jeffrey

        Teaching of new ideas in the ANE as a dangerous occupation?
         
        Where to begin?
         
        Just a few examples.
         
        According to tradition, Zoroaster was hounded by traditionalists most of his life.
         
        We don't hear much in the way of revolutionary religious ideas coming out of ancient Egypt - except perhaps Akhnaton who (like Oliver Cromwell) was badly treated posthumously.
         
        And the other famous innovator (if historical), Moses, who had to scuttle out of Egypt in a hurry.
         
        Nor do the Assyrian and Babylonian records provide many examples of individuals with radical ideas shaking up the religio-political authorities.  Nabonidus was one.  He tried to elevate the status of his home town moon god, Sin, but this upset the priests of Marduk, and history remembers him as a madman 
         
        Many or most of the Hebrew prophets had troubles with the authories: Jezebel being but one of many who did not like being told what to do.  The voices of the prophets were finally silenced by the priestly hierarchy when the canon was closed in the 5th century

        Branching briefly away from the ANE heartland, the 6th century Ionian philosophers famously stood up to the authorities, but in 494 Miletos was razed to the ground by the Persians.  As a result many of the Ionian revolutionaries moving to the safe obscurity of colonies in Italy or Sicily.  By the end of the 5th century the antinomian attitudes of  Athenian  philosopherss resulted in many executions, Socrates being just one of many who was put to death either for atheism or disruption of  the peace.  Even Democritus, arguably the most brilliant and prolific writer of his time had all his books destroyed.  This for getting on the wrong side of Plato (and later St. Augustine) for propagating what has  today become the pre-eminent scientific worldview.  
         
        We all know about the troubles encountered by John the Baptist and Jesus.
         
        Even Mohammed had a hard time with his revolution which hung by a thread for a while.
         
        Books were burned, ideas suppressed, and innovators hounded, while others such as practitioners of the Orphic cults protected themselves by cloaking their ideas in secrecy.
         
        I simply raise this as one possible explanation for the difficulty you have encountered trying to find examples of  leaders in the ANE teaching their followers how to pray. 
         
        Now India.  Well, that was different.
         
        Graham Hagens

        --- On Sun, 3/1/09, Jeffrey B. Gibson <jgibson000@...> wrote:

        From: Jeffrey B. Gibson <jgibson000@...>
        Subject: Re: [ANE-2] Re: masters, disciples, and prayers
        To: ANE-2@yahoogroups.com
        Date: Sunday, March 1, 2009, 8:27 AM






        Graham Hagens wrote:
        > --- On Wed, 2/25/09, Jeffrey B. Gibson <jgibson000@comcast. net> wrote:
        >
        > "Please note that I'm not looking for speculation about what might have
        > happened if someone had disciples. I'm looking for actual evidence of
        > that those who had disciples also actually did a specific thing."
        >
        > I find myself wondering whether the reason this is a difficult question to answer may be because teaching disciples to pray - or indeed teaching disciples to think in any novel way at all - was a dangerous, even revolutionary activity in the ANE.
        >

        --
        Jeffrey B. Gibson, D.Phil. (Oxon)
        1500 W. Pratt Blvd.
        Chicago, Illinois
        e-mail jgibson000@comcast. net



















        [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
      • Trudy Kawami
        Alas, Zoroaster (Zarathustra, Zardusht) is not a good parallel, as we know neither the century in which he lived, nor the belief system(s) of his
        Message 3 of 14 , Mar 4 2:31 PM
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          Alas, Zoroaster (Zarathustra, Zardusht) is not a good parallel, as we
          know neither the century in which he lived, nor the belief system(s) of
          his contemporaries. So it is hard to judge how his ideas were received -
          or even how they differed from the common belief. Most of the copies of
          Zoroastrian texts that have come down to us date from the period after
          the coming of Islam. Hence they could well be casting "history" as a
          paradigm of their present situation. Jeffrey was trying to get beyond
          subjective "tradition." Note that he asks for documentation, a
          different thing altogether.

          (I would ask how India was different, but that topic is outside this
          list.)

          Trudy Kawami



          ________________________________

          From: ANE-2@yahoogroups.com [mailto:ANE-2@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of
          Graham Hagens
          Sent: Wednesday, March 04, 2009 3:32 PM
          To: ANE-2@yahoogroups.com
          Subject: Re: [ANE-2] Re: masters, disciples, and prayers



          'It was? Can you provide some documentation for this claim?'
          Jeffrey

          Teaching of new ideas in the ANE as a dangerous occupation?
          Where to begin?
          Just a few examples.
          According to tradition, Zoroaster was hounded by traditionalists most
          of his life.

          [SNIP]

          Books were burned, ideas suppressed, and innovators hounded, while
          others such as practitioners of the Orphic cults protected themselves by
          cloaking their ideas in secrecy.
          I simply raise this as one possible explanation for the difficulty you
          have encountered trying to find examples of leaders in the ANE teaching
          their followers how to pray.
          Now India. Well, that was different.

          Graham Hagens

          :
          _



          [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
        • Graham Hagens
          ... This is true. However the list homepage informs us that the ANE-2 region of interest reaches from the Indus to the Nile. It would therefore include the
          Message 4 of 14 , Mar 8 7:47 AM
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            --- In ANE-2@yahoogroups.com, "Trudy Kawami" <tkawami@...> wrote:
            >
            > (I would ask how India was different, but that topic is outside this
            > list.)
            >
            > Trudy Kawami
            >

            This is true.

            However the list homepage informs us that the ANE-2 region of interest reaches from the Indus to the Nile.

            It would therefore include the easternmost satrapies of the Achaemenian empire, the cultural hub of Gandhara, as well as the Indo-Greek kingdoms which endured until the end of the first millennium BCE.

            Although these territories do not feature in ANE-2 exchanges very frequently, their multi-cultural significance is of profound importance.

            The well maintained trade routes of the Achaemenian empire allowed adventurers such as Democritus to mingle with 'naked Indian sages' in addition to giving him the freedom to visit Egypt and Babylon in the course of his many travels. The simultaneous rise of Indian and Greek philosophy - both of which may take credit for many of the worldviews we hold today - may be directly traced to such exchanges.

            ANE-2 will be the weaker if such topics are ignored or brushed aside

            Graham Hagens
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