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Re: [ANE-2] Re: ink from a Dead Sea Scroll made near the Dead Sea

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  • David Hall
    The Nabateans built Shivtah near the Sinai border and other settlements of the Negev in the first century B.C.  There were dams and dam terraces constructed
    Message 1 of 20 , Feb 28, 2009
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      The Nabateans built Shivtah near the Sinai border and other settlements of the Negev in the first century B.C.  There were dams and dam terraces constructed across valleys for agriculture and domestic water use.  The Nabateans were annexed by Rome.  Later in the fourth century Christians perhaps Nabateans who converted to Christianity had these villages as evidenced by crosses on building stones, churches, and baptismals.  There is evidence they may have continued to repair and perhaps build more dams. 
       
      The Romans built numerous dams including one by Nero that was 40 meters/120 feet high in Italy for his private enjoyment.
       
      David Q. Hall 


      --- On Sat, 2/28/09, dastacey62 <DAVID.STACEY63@...> wrote:

      From: dastacey62 <DAVID.STACEY63@...>
      Subject: [ANE-2] Re: ink from a Dead Sea Scroll made near the Dead Sea
      To: ANE-2@yahoogroups.com
      Date: Saturday, February 28, 2009, 2:51 AM






      So Joe, Building a dam 4 to 5 m high, with walls on average perhaps
      2.5 m thick, perhaps with foundations cut into the bedrock, was all a
      bit of a doddle. The fact that no trace of it has survived the floods
      of the past 2000 years indicates the forces it had to withstand. If
      it was all so easy why didn't every Tom, Dick or Harry build dams all
      over the country? The fact is that only Herod seems to have had the
      necessary knowledge and resources which he put to use in his two
      prestigious city water systems; for the high-level aqueduct at
      Caesarea, and the Wadi el-Biyar dam in the Solomons Pool system
      outside Jerusalem.
      David Stacey

      --- In ANE-2@yahoogroups. com, Joe Zias <joezias@... > wrote:
      >
      > David Stacey writes in connection to Goransons post the
      following::The only dams from the Second Temple period of which I am
      >
      > aware are both considered to be the work of Herod and are integral
      >
      > parts of the water systems of two of his most prestigious cities,
      >
      > Jerusalem and Caesarea (high level aqueduct). Neither would have
      had
      >
      > to withstand the same ferocity of floods as in Qumran.
      >
      > I would like to remind readers that a few kms up the road in the
      8th millineum BC the folks in Jericho were already constructing dams.
      For the folks in Qumran I doub't if this was any mean feat, some
      8,000 yrs later.
      >
      > Joe
      >
      > Joe Zias www.joezias. com
      > Anthropology/ Paleopathology
      >
      > Science and Antiquity Group - Jerusalem
      > Jerusalem, Israel
      >
      > --- On Thu, 2/26/09, dastacey62 <DAVID.STACEY63@ ...> wrote:
      > From: dastacey62 <DAVID.STACEY63@ ...>
      > Subject: [ANE-2] Re: ink from a Dead Sea Scroll made near the Dead
      Sea
      > To: ANE-2@yahoogroups. com
      > Date: Thursday, February 26, 2009, 9:59 AM
      >
      >
      >
      >
      >
      >
      >
      >
      >
      >
      >
      >
      > Stephen It is noticeable how selective you are in what
      you want to
      >
      > draw to peoples attention. You did not, for example, inform this
      list
      >
      > of either my article in DSD 14:2 (2007) in which I showed that,
      from
      >
      > the archaeological data, the only buildings existing throughout
      >
      > seventy years of the Hasmonean period were the tower, the pottery
      >
      > kilns and the industrial building - no living quarters, not enough
      >
      > water for year round occupation, unlikely site for elite scribes. I
      >
      > also showed that the 'main' aqueduct and, with it, the expansion of
      >
      > Qumran, could not possible date earlier than 31 BCE. By merely
      >
      > ignoring it this fact will not go away. Nor did you mention my
      >
      > article in BAIAS 26 (2008) in which I suggested that during that
      time
      >
      > the site was a seasonal industrial area.
      >
      >
      >
      > To further consolidate the dating of the 'main' aqueduct I suggest
      >
      > you consider the dam that was eventually built across the mouth of
      a
      >
      > basin in Nahal Qumran to capture flood water. This dam must have
      been
      >
      > between 4 and 5 metres high and as such the base of the walls must
      >
      > have been c. 3m thick (compare with the Byzantine dams associated
      >
      > with the low-level aqueduct at Caesarea). It had to withstand the
      >
      > ferocity of torrential floods and would have been a considerable
      feet
      >
      > of engineering, requiring great technological know how and a large
      >
      > budget. The only dams from the Second Temple period of which I am
      >
      > aware are both considered to be the work of Herod and are integral
      >
      > parts of the water systems of two of his most prestigious cities,
      >
      > Jerusalem and Caesarea (high level aqueduct). Neither would have
      had
      >
      > to withstand the same ferocity of floods as in Qumran. The Qumran
      >
      > dam is clearly related to the expansion of the site which required
      >
      > the raising of the sides of the cistern L110 (as noted by de Vaux
      >
      > 1973: 9)and the two pools L117 and 118. A channel overflowing from
      >
      > the top of the raised side of L117 takes water to the NE. Magen and
      >
      > Peleg have traced part of this channel running over a 'northern'
      dump
      >
      > (Magen and Peleg 2007 Fig 11) which they date to 'the first half of
      >
      > the first century' (M and P 2007:8). When the material from
      >
      > this 'dump' is published it may well confirm my dating of
      the 'main'
      >
      > aqueduct to c. 31 BCE.
      >
      >
      >
      > As an archaeologist I can only address archaeological issues with
      >
      > any confidence. I can make no contribuition to the dating of the
      >
      > Thanksgiving Scroll. However I understand it has been dated as
      early
      >
      > as the 2nd century BCE (thus Eshel)or to about 40 BCE (thus Stokl)
      a
      >
      > period when there is no evidence for permanent occupation at
      Qumran.
      >
      > So even it is was written somewhere near the Dead Sea it's unlikely
      >
      > that it was at Qumran.
      >
      >
      >
      > David Stacey
      >
      >
      >
      > --- In ANE-2@yahoogroups. com, goranson@ wrote:
      >
      > >
      >
      > >
      >
      > > A new article reports measurements of the ratio of chlorine and
      >
      > bromine in ink
      >
      > > from a Qumran Cave One manuscript and concludes that the ink was
      >
      > prepared with
      >
      > > water from or near the Dead Sea; the Qumran scroll was inscribed
      >
      > near the Dead
      >
      > > Sea.
      >
      > >
      >
      > > Ira Rabin, Oliver Hahn, Timo Wolff, Admir Masic and Gisela
      >
      > Weinberg, "On the
      >
      > > Origin of the Ink of the Thanksgiving Scroll (1QHodayot a)," Dead
      >
      > Sea
      >
      > > Discoveries 16.1 (2009) 97-106.
      >
      > >
      >
      > > Abstract (p. 97): "In this study we demonstrate the possibility
      to
      >
      > > identify the
      >
      > > production area of the scrolls, coupling non-destructive
      >
      > quantitative analysis
      >
      > > of trace elements to spectroscopic investigation of the inks.
      This
      >
      > approach,
      >
      > > that allowed us to determine the Dead Sea area as origin of
      >
      > 1QHodayot a, is of
      >
      > > general validity."
      >
      > >
      >
      > > Conclusion (p. 102) "Using the fingerprint composition of the
      water
      >
      > from the
      >
      > > Dead Sea region we could directly link the fragment, and
      >
      > consequently, the
      >
      > > production of 1QHodayot a to the Qumran area. Furthermore, our
      >
      > study of
      >
      > > organic
      >
      > > components present in the carbon ink of this scroll indicates
      that
      >
      > gall nuts
      >
      > > extracts were used in the ink preparation as early as 1st century
      >
      > C.E."
      >
      > >
      >
      > > Stephen Goranson
      >
      > > http://www.duke edu/~goranson/ Essenes_& _Others.pdf
      >
      > > "Others and Intra-Jewish Polemic as Reflected in Qumran Texts"
      >
      > >
      >
      >
      >
      >
      >
      >
      >
      >
      >
      >
      >
      >
      >
      >
      >
      >
      >
      >
      >
      >
      >
      >
      >
      >
      >
      >
      >
      >
      > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
      >



















      [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
    • dastacey62
      Well Joe, that s odd - there are no major dams at Masada or Jericho where you say they are necessary, and in fact the only two major Second Temple dams are in
      Message 2 of 20 , Mar 1 6:55 AM
      • 0 Attachment
        Well Joe, that's odd - there are no major dams at Masada or Jericho
        where you say they are necessary, and in fact the only two major
        Second Temple dams are in Caesarea and Jerusalem where you say they
        are unnecessary... curioser and curiouser

        David Stacey

        UK
        --- In ANE-2@yahoogroups.com, "Joe Zias" <joezias@...> wrote:
        >
        > David Stacey on the subject of dams in antiquity writes "If it was
        all so
        > easy why didn't every Tom, Dick or Harry build dams all over the
        country?"
        > The answer is simple, in the desert areas where rain fall is
        minimal as in
        > Masada, Qumran and Jericho, dams are necessary to collect runoff
        from higher
        > elevations. In areas where there is adequate seasonal rainfall or
        springs,
        > such as Jerusalem, Caesarea, Beit Shean ect, they are unnecessary.
        >
        >
        >
        > Joe Zias
        >
        >
        >
        > From: ANE-2@yahoogroups.com [mailto:ANE-2@yahoogroups.com] On
        Behalf Of
        > dastacey62
        > Sent: Saturday, February 28, 2009 9:51 AM
        > To: ANE-2@yahoogroups.com
        > Subject: [ANE-2] Re: ink from a Dead Sea Scroll made near the Dead
        Sea
        >
        >
        >
        > So Joe, Building a dam 4 to 5 m high, with walls on average perhaps
        > 2.5 m thick, perhaps with foundations cut into the bedrock, was all
        a
        > bit of a doddle. The fact that no trace of it has survived the
        floods
        > of the past 2000 years indicates the forces it had to withstand. If
        > it was all so easy why didn't every Tom, Dick or Harry build dams
        all
        > over the country? The fact is that only Herod seems to have had the
        > necessary knowledge and resources which he put to use in his two
        > prestigious city water systems; for the high-level aqueduct at
        > Caesarea, and the Wadi el-Biyar dam in the Solomons Pool system
        > outside Jerusalem.
        > David Stacey
        >
        > --- In ANE-2@yahoogroups.com <mailto:ANE-2%40yahoogroups.com> , Joe
        Zias
        > <joezias@> wrote:
        > >
        > > David Stacey writes in connection to Goransons post the
        > following::The only dams from the Second Temple period of which I
        am
        > >
        > > aware are both considered to be the work of Herod and are
        integral
        > >
        > > parts of the water systems of two of his most prestigious cities,
        > >
        > > Jerusalem and Caesarea (high level aqueduct). Neither would have
        > had
        > >
        > > to withstand the same ferocity of floods as in Qumran.
        > >
        > > I would like to remind readers that a few kms up the road in the
        > 8th millineum BC the folks in Jericho were already constructing
        dams.
        > For the folks in Qumran I doub't if this was any mean feat, some
        > 8,000 yrs later.
        > >
        > > Joe
        > >
        > > Joe Zias www.joezias.com
        > > Anthropology/Paleopathology
        > >
        > > Science and Antiquity Group - Jerusalem
        > > Jerusalem, Israel
        > >
        > > --- On Thu, 2/26/09, dastacey62 <DAVID.STACEY63@> wrote:
        > > From: dastacey62 <DAVID.STACEY63@>
        > > Subject: [ANE-2] Re: ink from a Dead Sea Scroll made near the
        Dead
        > Sea
        > > To: ANE-2@yahoogroups.com <mailto:ANE-2%40yahoogroups.com>
        > > Date: Thursday, February 26, 2009, 9:59 AM
        > >
        > >
        > >
        > >
        > >
        > >
        > >
        > >
        > >
        > >
        > >
        > >
        > > Stephen It is noticeable how selective you are in what
        > you want to
        > >
        > > draw to peoples attention. You did not, for example, inform this
        > list
        > >
        > > of either my article in DSD 14:2 (2007) in which I showed that,
        > from
        > >
        > > the archaeological data, the only buildings existing throughout
        > >
        > > seventy years of the Hasmonean period were the tower, the pottery
        > >
        > > kilns and the industrial building - no living quarters, not
        enough
        > >
        > > water for year round occupation, unlikely site for elite scribes.
        I
        > >
        > > also showed that the 'main' aqueduct and, with it, the expansion
        of
        > >
        > > Qumran, could not possible date earlier than 31 BCE. By merely
        > >
        > > ignoring it this fact will not go away. Nor did you mention my
        > >
        > > article in BAIAS 26 (2008) in which I suggested that during that
        > time
        > >
        > > the site was a seasonal industrial area.
        > >
        > >
        > >
        > > To further consolidate the dating of the 'main' aqueduct I
        suggest
        > >
        > > you consider the dam that was eventually built across the mouth
        of
        > a
        > >
        > > basin in Nahal Qumran to capture flood water. This dam must have
        > been
        > >
        > > between 4 and 5 metres high and as such the base of the walls
        must
        > >
        > > have been c. 3m thick (compare with the Byzantine dams associated
        > >
        > > with the low-level aqueduct at Caesarea). It had to withstand the
        > >
        > > ferocity of torrential floods and would have been a considerable
        > feet
        > >
        > > of engineering, requiring great technological know how and a
        large
        > >
        > > budget. The only dams from the Second Temple period of which I am
        > >
        > > aware are both considered to be the work of Herod and are
        integral
        > >
        > > parts of the water systems of two of his most prestigious cities,
        > >
        > > Jerusalem and Caesarea (high level aqueduct). Neither would have
        > had
        > >
        > > to withstand the same ferocity of floods as in Qumran. The Qumran
        > >
        > > dam is clearly related to the expansion of the site which
        required
        > >
        > > the raising of the sides of the cistern L110 (as noted by de Vaux
        > >
        > > 1973: 9)and the two pools L117 and 118. A channel overflowing
        from
        > >
        > > the top of the raised side of L117 takes water to the NE. Magen
        and
        > >
        > > Peleg have traced part of this channel running over a 'northern'
        > dump
        > >
        > > (Magen and Peleg 2007 Fig 11) which they date to 'the first half
        of
        > >
        > > the first century' (M and P 2007:8). When the material from
        > >
        > > this 'dump' is published it may well confirm my dating of
        > the 'main'
        > >
        > > aqueduct to c. 31 BCE.
        > >
        > >
        > >
        > > As an archaeologist I can only address archaeological issues with
        > >
        > > any confidence. I can make no contribuition to the dating of the
        > >
        > > Thanksgiving Scroll. However I understand it has been dated as
        > early
        > >
        > > as the 2nd century BCE (thus Eshel)or to about 40 BCE (thus
        Stokl)
        > a
        > >
        > > period when there is no evidence for permanent occupation at
        > Qumran.
        > >
        > > So even it is was written somewhere near the Dead Sea it's
        unlikely
        > >
        > > that it was at Qumran.
        > >
        > >
        > >
        > > David Stacey
        > >
        > >
        > >
        > > --- In ANE-2@yahoogroups. com, goranson@ wrote:
        > >
        > > >
        > >
        > > >
        > >
        > > > A new article reports measurements of the ratio of chlorine and
        > >
        > > bromine in ink
        > >
        > > > from a Qumran Cave One manuscript and concludes that the ink
        was
        > >
        > > prepared with
        > >
        > > > water from or near the Dead Sea; the Qumran scroll was
        inscribed
        > >
        > > near the Dead
        > >
        > > > Sea.
        > >
        > > >
        > >
        > > > Ira Rabin, Oliver Hahn, Timo Wolff, Admir Masic and Gisela
        > >
        > > Weinberg, "On the
        > >
        > > > Origin of the Ink of the Thanksgiving Scroll (1QHodayot a),"
        Dead
        > >
        > > Sea
        > >
        > > > Discoveries 16.1 (2009) 97-106.
        > >
        > > >
        > >
        > > > Abstract (p. 97): "In this study we demonstrate the possibility
        > to
        > >
        > > > identify the
        > >
        > > > production area of the scrolls, coupling non-destructive
        > >
        > > quantitative analysis
        > >
        > > > of trace elements to spectroscopic investigation of the inks.
        > This
        > >
        > > approach,
        > >
        > > > that allowed us to determine the Dead Sea area as origin of
        > >
        > > 1QHodayot a, is of
        > >
        > > > general validity."
        > >
        > > >
        > >
        > > > Conclusion (p. 102) "Using the fingerprint composition of the
        > water
        > >
        > > from the
        > >
        > > > Dead Sea region we could directly link the fragment, and
        > >
        > > consequently, the
        > >
        > > > production of 1QHodayot a to the Qumran area. Furthermore, our
        > >
        > > study of
        > >
        > > > organic
        > >
        > > > components present in the carbon ink of this scroll indicates
        > that
        > >
        > > gall nuts
        > >
        > > > extracts were used in the ink preparation as early as 1st
        century
        > >
        > > C.E."
        > >
        > > >
        > >
        > > > Stephen Goranson
        > >
        > > > http://www.duke edu/~goranson/ Essenes_& _Others.pdf
        > >
        > > > "Others and Intra-Jewish Polemic as Reflected in Qumran Texts"
        > >
        > > >
        > >
        > >
        > >
        > >
        > >
        > >
        > >
        > >
        > >
        > >
        > >
        > >
        > >
        > >
        > >
        > >
        > >
        > >
        > >
        > >
        > >
        > >
        > >
        > >
        > >
        > >
        > >
        > >
        > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
        > >
        >
        >
        >
        >
        >
        > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
        >
      • theodc25
        Quite close to Qumran, is the Buqe ah Valley which has substantial evidence of intensive agricultural production including dams, terraces, and walls built for
        Message 3 of 20 , Mar 1 4:02 PM
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          Quite close to Qumran, is the Buqe'ah Valley which has substantial
          evidence of intensive agricultural production including dams,
          terraces, and walls built for pools. The major sites in valley are
          Khirbet Abu Tabaq, Khirbet es-Samrah, and Khirbet el-Maqari partially
          excavated by Cross and Milik, and further research was done by Stager.
          The sites, terracing, and dams are all dated around the 8th/7th
          century BCE based on lmlk jars and other pottery found at the sites.

          It has been suggested that much of this area was reused in the 3rd
          cent BCE-1st cent CE, because of the close proximity of Hyrcania, a
          Roman road running through the valley to Qumran, and some late
          Hellenistic/early Roman pottery that was found at the forts. Also I
          thought there were dams around Masada?

          Owen Chesnut
          Ph.D. Candidate
          Andrews University




          --- In ANE-2@yahoogroups.com, "dastacey62" <DAVID.STACEY63@...> wrote:
          >
          > Well Joe, that's odd - there are no major dams at Masada or Jericho
          > where you say they are necessary, and in fact the only two major
          > Second Temple dams are in Caesarea and Jerusalem where you say they
          > are unnecessary... curioser and curiouser
          >
          > David Stacey
          >
          > UK
          > --- In ANE-2@yahoogroups.com, "Joe Zias" <joezias@> wrote:
          > >
          > > David Stacey on the subject of dams in antiquity writes "If it was
          > all so
          > > easy why didn't every Tom, Dick or Harry build dams all over the
          > country?"
          > > The answer is simple, in the desert areas where rain fall is
          > minimal as in
          > > Masada, Qumran and Jericho, dams are necessary to collect runoff
          > from higher
          > > elevations. In areas where there is adequate seasonal rainfall or
          > springs,
          > > such as Jerusalem, Caesarea, Beit Shean ect, they are unnecessary.
          > >
          > >
          > >
          > > Joe Zias
          > >
          > >
          > >
          > > From: ANE-2@yahoogroups.com [mailto:ANE-2@yahoogroups.com] On
          > Behalf Of
          > > dastacey62
          > > Sent: Saturday, February 28, 2009 9:51 AM
          > > To: ANE-2@yahoogroups.com
          > > Subject: [ANE-2] Re: ink from a Dead Sea Scroll made near the Dead
          > Sea
          > >
          > >
          > >
          > > So Joe, Building a dam 4 to 5 m high, with walls on average perhaps
          > > 2.5 m thick, perhaps with foundations cut into the bedrock, was all
          > a
          > > bit of a doddle. The fact that no trace of it has survived the
          > floods
          > > of the past 2000 years indicates the forces it had to withstand. If
          > > it was all so easy why didn't every Tom, Dick or Harry build dams
          > all
          > > over the country? The fact is that only Herod seems to have had the
          > > necessary knowledge and resources which he put to use in his two
          > > prestigious city water systems; for the high-level aqueduct at
          > > Caesarea, and the Wadi el-Biyar dam in the Solomons Pool system
          > > outside Jerusalem.
          > > David Stacey
          > >
          > > --- In ANE-2@yahoogroups.com <mailto:ANE-2%40yahoogroups.com> , Joe
          > Zias
          > > <joezias@> wrote:
          > > >
          > > > David Stacey writes in connection to Goransons post the
          > > following::The only dams from the Second Temple period of which I
          > am
          > > >
          > > > aware are both considered to be the work of Herod and are
          > integral
          > > >
          > > > parts of the water systems of two of his most prestigious cities,
          > > >
          > > > Jerusalem and Caesarea (high level aqueduct). Neither would have
          > > had
          > > >
          > > > to withstand the same ferocity of floods as in Qumran.
          > > >
          > > > I would like to remind readers that a few kms up the road in the
          > > 8th millineum BC the folks in Jericho were already constructing
          > dams.
          > > For the folks in Qumran I doub't if this was any mean feat, some
          > > 8,000 yrs later.
          > > >
          > > > Joe
          > > >
          > > > Joe Zias www.joezias.com
          > > > Anthropology/Paleopathology
          > > >
          > > > Science and Antiquity Group - Jerusalem
          > > > Jerusalem, Israel
          > > >
        • dastacey62
          Most of these dams are, are they not, on a fairly minor scale and would not have had to withstand the sort of terrific force present in flash floods as they
          Message 4 of 20 , Mar 3 1:24 AM
          • 0 Attachment
            Most of these dams are, are they not, on a fairly minor scale and
            would not have had to withstand the sort of terrific force present
            in flash floods as they thunder down Nahal Qumran. The power of such
            flash floods is an awesome sight. The dam at Qumran would have been 4
            or 5 metres high and would have needed to have walls at least 3m
            thick at the base. Yet it probably needed some sort of sluice system
            to, if necessary, relieve the pressure of the initial torrent. This
            required considerable hydrological knowledge and was not your average
            agricultural installation.

            David Stacey
            -
            -- In ANE-2@yahoogroups.com, "theodc25" <chesnut@...> wrote:
            >
            > Quite close to Qumran, is the Buqe'ah Valley which has substantial
            > evidence of intensive agricultural production including dams,
            > terraces, and walls built for pools. The major sites in valley are
            > Khirbet Abu Tabaq, Khirbet es-Samrah, and Khirbet el-Maqari
            partially
            > excavated by Cross and Milik, and further research was done by
            Stager.
            > The sites, terracing, and dams are all dated around the 8th/7th
            > century BCE based on lmlk jars and other pottery found at the
            sites.
            >
            > It has been suggested that much of this area was reused in the 3rd
            > cent BCE-1st cent CE, because of the close proximity of Hyrcania, a
            > Roman road running through the valley to Qumran, and some late
            > Hellenistic/early Roman pottery that was found at the forts. Also I
            > thought there were dams around Masada?
            >
            > Owen Chesnut
            > Ph.D. Candidate
            > Andrews University
            >
            >
            >
            >
            > --- In ANE-2@yahoogroups.com, "dastacey62" <DAVID.STACEY63@> wrote:
            > >
            > > Well Joe, that's odd - there are no major dams at Masada or
            Jericho
            > > where you say they are necessary, and in fact the only two major
            > > Second Temple dams are in Caesarea and Jerusalem where you say
            they
            > > are unnecessary... curioser and curiouser
            > >
            > > David Stacey
            > >
            > > UK
            > > --- In ANE-2@yahoogroups.com, "Joe Zias" <joezias@> wrote:
            > > >
            > > > David Stacey on the subject of dams in antiquity writes "If it
            was
            > > all so
            > > > easy why didn't every Tom, Dick or Harry build dams all over
            the
            > > country?"
            > > > The answer is simple, in the desert areas where rain fall is
            > > minimal as in
            > > > Masada, Qumran and Jericho, dams are necessary to collect
            runoff
            > > from higher
            > > > elevations. In areas where there is adequate seasonal rainfall
            or
            > > springs,
            > > > such as Jerusalem, Caesarea, Beit Shean ect, they are
            unnecessary.
            > > >
            > > >
            > > >
            > > > Joe Zias
            > > >
            > > >
            > > >
            > > > From: ANE-2@yahoogroups.com [mailto:ANE-2@yahoogroups.com] On
            > > Behalf Of
            > > > dastacey62
            > > > Sent: Saturday, February 28, 2009 9:51 AM
            > > > To: ANE-2@yahoogroups.com
            > > > Subject: [ANE-2] Re: ink from a Dead Sea Scroll made near the
            Dead
            > > Sea
            > > >
            > > >
            > > >
            > > > So Joe, Building a dam 4 to 5 m high, with walls on average
            perhaps
            > > > 2.5 m thick, perhaps with foundations cut into the bedrock, was
            all
            > > a
            > > > bit of a doddle. The fact that no trace of it has survived the
            > > floods
            > > > of the past 2000 years indicates the forces it had to
            withstand. If
            > > > it was all so easy why didn't every Tom, Dick or Harry build
            dams
            > > all
            > > > over the country? The fact is that only Herod seems to have had
            the
            > > > necessary knowledge and resources which he put to use in his
            two
            > > > prestigious city water systems; for the high-level aqueduct at
            > > > Caesarea, and the Wadi el-Biyar dam in the Solomons Pool system
            > > > outside Jerusalem.
            > > > David Stacey
            > > >
            > > > --- In ANE-2@yahoogroups.com <mailto:ANE-2%40yahoogroups.com> ,
            Joe
            > > Zias
            > > > <joezias@> wrote:
            > > > >
            > > > > David Stacey writes in connection to Goransons post the
            > > > following::The only dams from the Second Temple period of which
            I
            > > am
            > > > >
            > > > > aware are both considered to be the work of Herod and are
            > > integral
            > > > >
            > > > > parts of the water systems of two of his most prestigious
            cities,
            > > > >
            > > > > Jerusalem and Caesarea (high level aqueduct). Neither would
            have
            > > > had
            > > > >
            > > > > to withstand the same ferocity of floods as in Qumran.
            > > > >
            > > > > I would like to remind readers that a few kms up the road in
            the
            > > > 8th millineum BC the folks in Jericho were already constructing
            > > dams.
            > > > For the folks in Qumran I doub't if this was any mean feat,
            some
            > > > 8,000 yrs later.
            > > > >
            > > > > Joe
            > > > >
            > > > > Joe Zias www.joezias.com
            > > > > Anthropology/Paleopathology
            > > > >
            > > > > Science and Antiquity Group - Jerusalem
            > > > > Jerusalem, Israel
            > > > >
            >
          • JEFFREY A BLAKELY
            Good Morning Barrage dams feeding sluices and watering fields were a bit of a doodle by even 1200 BC in Yemen. If you look around Saba and Qataban evidence
            Message 5 of 20 , Mar 3 5:52 AM
            • 0 Attachment
              Good Morning

              Barrage dams feeding sluices and watering fields were a bit of a "doodle" by even 1200 BC in Yemen. If you look around Saba and Qataban evidence for them is all over the place in remnants and in agricultural fields built up by the silt in the runoff produced during floods. If you want a good example see the Marib Dam, a truly massive dam capable of taking on an incredible deluge and a dam that was in use for over a millennium. It is hard to believe that the knowledge did not reach the other end of the trade route.

              Jeffrey A. Blakely
              Madison, WI

              ----- Original Message -----
              From: dastacey62 <DAVID.STACEY63@...>
              Date: Tuesday, March 3, 2009 4:04 am
              Subject: [ANE-2] Re: ink from a Dead Sea Scroll made near the Dead Sea
              To: ANE-2@yahoogroups.com


              > Most of these dams are, are they not, on a fairly minor scale and
              > would not have had to withstand the sort of terrific force present
              > in flash floods as they thunder down Nahal Qumran. The power of such
              >
              > flash floods is an awesome sight. The dam at Qumran would have been 4
              >
              > or 5 metres high and would have needed to have walls at least 3m
              > thick at the base. Yet it probably needed some sort of sluice system
              >
              > to, if necessary, relieve the pressure of the initial torrent. This
              > required considerable hydrological knowledge and was not your average
              >
              > agricultural installation.
              >
              > David Stacey
              > -
              > -- In ANE-2@yahoogroups.com, "theodc25" <chesnut@...> wrote:
              > >
              > > Quite close to Qumran, is the Buqe'ah Valley which has substantial
              > > evidence of intensive agricultural production including dams,
              > > terraces, and walls built for pools. The major sites in valley are
              > > Khirbet Abu Tabaq, Khirbet es-Samrah, and Khirbet el-Maqari
              > partially
              > > excavated by Cross and Milik, and further research was done by
              > Stager.
              > > The sites, terracing, and dams are all dated around the 8th/7th
              > > century BCE based on lmlk jars and other pottery found at the
              > sites.
              > >
              > > It has been suggested that much of this area was reused in the 3rd
              > > cent BCE-1st cent CE, because of the close proximity of Hyrcania, a
              > > Roman road running through the valley to Qumran, and some late
              > > Hellenistic/early Roman pottery that was found at the forts. Also
              > I
              > > thought there were dams around Masada?
              > >
              > > Owen Chesnut
              > > Ph.D. Candidate
              > > Andrews University
              > >
              > >
              > >
              > >
              > > --- In ANE-2@yahoogroups.com, "dastacey62" <DAVID.STACEY63@> wrote:
              > > >
              > > > Well Joe, that's odd - there are no major dams at Masada or
              > Jericho
              > > > where you say they are necessary, and in fact the only two major
              >
              > > > Second Temple dams are in Caesarea and Jerusalem where you say
              > they
              > > > are unnecessary... curioser and curiouser
              > > >
              > > > David Stacey
              > > >
              > > > UK
              > > > --- In ANE-2@yahoogroups.com, "Joe Zias" <joezias@> wrote:
              > > > >
              > > > > David Stacey on the subject of dams in antiquity writes "If it
              >
              > was
              > > > all so
              > > > > easy why didn't every Tom, Dick or Harry build dams all over
              > the
              > > > country?"
              > > > > The answer is simple, in the desert areas where rain fall is
              > > > minimal as in
              > > > > Masada, Qumran and Jericho, dams are necessary to collect
              > runoff
              > > > from higher
              > > > > elevations. In areas where there is adequate seasonal rainfall
              >
              > or
              > > > springs,
              > > > > such as Jerusalem, Caesarea, Beit Shean ect, they are
              > unnecessary.
              > > > >
              > > > >
              > > > >
              > > > > Joe Zias
              > > > >
              > > > >
              > > > >
              > > > > From: ANE-2@yahoogroups.com [mailto:ANE-2@yahoogroups.com] On
              > > > Behalf Of
              > > > > dastacey62
              > > > > Sent: Saturday, February 28, 2009 9:51 AM
              > > > > To: ANE-2@yahoogroups.com
              > > > > Subject: [ANE-2] Re: ink from a Dead Sea Scroll made near the
              > Dead
              > > > Sea
              > > > >
              > > > >
              > > > >
              > > > > So Joe, Building a dam 4 to 5 m high, with walls on average
              > perhaps
              > > > > 2.5 m thick, perhaps with foundations cut into the bedrock, was
              >
              > all
              > > > a
              > > > > bit of a doddle. The fact that no trace of it has survived the
              >
              > > > floods
              > > > > of the past 2000 years indicates the forces it had to
              > withstand. If
              > > > > it was all so easy why didn't every Tom, Dick or Harry build
              > dams
              > > > all
              > > > > over the country? The fact is that only Herod seems to have had
              >
              > the
              > > > > necessary knowledge and resources which he put to use in his
              > two
              > > > > prestigious city water systems; for the high-level aqueduct at
              >
              > > > > Caesarea, and the Wadi el-Biyar dam in the Solomons Pool system
              >
              > > > > outside Jerusalem.
              > > > > David Stacey
              > > > >
              > > > > --- In ANE-2@yahoogroups.com < ,
              > Joe
              > > > Zias
              > > > > <joezias@> wrote:
              > > > > >
              > > > > > David Stacey writes in connection to Goransons post the
              > > > > following::The only dams from the Second Temple period of which
              >
              > I
              > > > am
              > > > > >
              > > > > > aware are both considered to be the work of Herod and are
              > > > integral
              > > > > >
              > > > > > parts of the water systems of two of his most prestigious
              > cities,
              > > > > >
              > > > > > Jerusalem and Caesarea (high level aqueduct). Neither would
              > have
              > > > > had
              > > > > >
              > > > > > to withstand the same ferocity of floods as in Qumran.
              > > > > >
              > > > > > I would like to remind readers that a few kms up the road in
              >
              > the
              > > > > 8th millineum BC the folks in Jericho were already constructing
              >
              > > > dams.
              > > > > For the folks in Qumran I doub't if this was any mean feat,
              > some
              > > > > 8,000 yrs later.
              > > > > >
              > > > > > Joe
              > > > > >
              > > > > > Joe Zias www.joezias.com
              > > > > > Anthropology/Paleopathology
              > > > > >
              > > > > > Science and Antiquity Group - Jerusalem
              > > > > > Jerusalem, Israel
              > > > > >
              > >
              >
              >
              >
            • dastacey62
              Of course barrage dams existed in Judea. The point that I m making, if it needs spelling out, is that all of the major dams requiring considerable know-how
              Message 6 of 20 , Mar 3 7:51 AM
              • 0 Attachment
                Of course barrage dams existed in Judea. The point that I'm making,
                if it needs spelling out, is that all of the major dams requiring
                considerable know-how and huge resources were instigated by the state
                or the temple. The construction of the dam at Qumran and of the rock-
                cut channel required the sort of labour and financial resources,
                technical expertise and determination demonstrated by Herod in other
                of his building projects and should be associated with his expansion
                of the settlement in 31 BCE. The recent excavations of Magen and
                Peleg would appear to confirm this date.

                David Stacey
                UK

                --- In ANE-2@yahoogroups.com, JEFFREY A BLAKELY <jblakely@...> wrote:
                >
                > Good Morning
                >
                > Barrage dams feeding sluices and watering fields were a bit of
                a "doodle" by even 1200 BC in Yemen. If you look around Saba and
                Qataban evidence for them is all over the place in remnants and in
                agricultural fields built up by the silt in the runoff produced
                during floods. If you want a good example see the Marib Dam, a truly
                massive dam capable of taking on an incredible deluge and a dam that
                was in use for over a millennium. It is hard to believe that the
                knowledge did not reach the other end of the trade route.
                >
                > Jeffrey A. Blakely
                > Madison, WI
                >
                > ----- Original Message -----
                > From: dastacey62 <DAVID.STACEY63@...>
                > Date: Tuesday, March 3, 2009 4:04 am
                > Subject: [ANE-2] Re: ink from a Dead Sea Scroll made near the Dead
                Sea
                > To: ANE-2@yahoogroups.com
                >
                >
                > > Most of these dams are, are they not, on a fairly minor scale and
                > > would not have had to withstand the sort of terrific force
                present
                > > in flash floods as they thunder down Nahal Qumran. The power of
                such
                > >
                > > flash floods is an awesome sight. The dam at Qumran would have
                been 4
                > >
                > > or 5 metres high and would have needed to have walls at least 3m
                > > thick at the base. Yet it probably needed some sort of sluice
                system
                > >
                > > to, if necessary, relieve the pressure of the initial torrent.
                This
                > > required considerable hydrological knowledge and was not your
                average
                > >
                > > agricultural installation.
                > >
                > > David Stacey
                > > -
                > > -- In ANE-2@yahoogroups.com, "theodc25" <chesnut@> wrote:
                > > >
                > > > Quite close to Qumran, is the Buqe'ah Valley which has
                substantial
                > > > evidence of intensive agricultural production including dams,
                > > > terraces, and walls built for pools. The major sites in
                valley are
                > > > Khirbet Abu Tabaq, Khirbet es-Samrah, and Khirbet el-Maqari
                > > partially
                > > > excavated by Cross and Milik, and further research was done by
                > > Stager.
                > > > The sites, terracing, and dams are all dated around the
                8th/7th
                > > > century BCE based on lmlk jars and other pottery found at the
                > > sites.
                > > >
                > > > It has been suggested that much of this area was reused in the
                3rd
                > > > cent BCE-1st cent CE, because of the close proximity of
                Hyrcania, a
                > > > Roman road running through the valley to Qumran, and some late
                > > > Hellenistic/early Roman pottery that was found at the forts.
                Also
                > > I
                > > > thought there were dams around Masada?
                > > >
                > > > Owen Chesnut
                > > > Ph.D. Candidate
                > > > Andrews University
                > > >
                > > >
                > > >
                > > >
                > > > --- In ANE-2@yahoogroups.com, "dastacey62" <DAVID.STACEY63@>
                wrote:
                > > > >
                > > > > Well Joe, that's odd - there are no major dams at Masada or
                > > Jericho
                > > > > where you say they are necessary, and in fact the only two
                major
                > >
                > > > > Second Temple dams are in Caesarea and Jerusalem where you
                say
                > > they
                > > > > are unnecessary... curioser and curiouser
                > > > >
                > > > > David Stacey
                > > > >
                > > > > UK
                > > > > --- In ANE-2@yahoogroups.com, "Joe Zias" <joezias@> wrote:
                > > > > >
                > > > > > David Stacey on the subject of dams in antiquity
                writes "If it
                > >
                > > was
                > > > > all so
                > > > > > easy why didn't every Tom, Dick or Harry build dams all
                over
                > > the
                > > > > country?"
                > > > > > The answer is simple, in the desert areas where rain fall
                is
                > > > > minimal as in
                > > > > > Masada, Qumran and Jericho, dams are necessary to collect
                > > runoff
                > > > > from higher
                > > > > > elevations. In areas where there is adequate seasonal
                rainfall
                > >
                > > or
                > > > > springs,
                > > > > > such as Jerusalem, Caesarea, Beit Shean ect, they are
                > > unnecessary.
                > > > > >
                > > > > >
                > > > > >
                > > > > > Joe Zias
                > > > > >
                > > > > >
                > > > > >
                > > > > > From: ANE-2@yahoogroups.com [mailto:ANE-2@yahoogroups.com]
                On
                > > > > Behalf Of
                > > > > > dastacey62
                > > > > > Sent: Saturday, February 28, 2009 9:51 AM
                > > > > > To: ANE-2@yahoogroups.com
                > > > > > Subject: [ANE-2] Re: ink from a Dead Sea Scroll made near
                the
                > > Dead
                > > > > Sea
                > > > > >
                > > > > >
                > > > > >
                > > > > > So Joe, Building a dam 4 to 5 m high, with walls on
                average
                > > perhaps
                > > > > > 2.5 m thick, perhaps with foundations cut into the
                bedrock, was
                > >
                > > all
                > > > > a
                > > > > > bit of a doddle. The fact that no trace of it has survived
                the
                > >
                > > > > floods
                > > > > > of the past 2000 years indicates the forces it had to
                > > withstand. If
                > > > > > it was all so easy why didn't every Tom, Dick or Harry
                build
                > > dams
                > > > > all
                > > > > > over the country? The fact is that only Herod seems to
                have had
                > >
                > > the
                > > > > > necessary knowledge and resources which he put to use in
                his
                > > two
                > > > > > prestigious city water systems; for the high-level
                aqueduct at
                > >
                > > > > > Caesarea, and the Wadi el-Biyar dam in the Solomons Pool
                system
                > >
                > > > > > outside Jerusalem.
                > > > > > David Stacey
                > > > > >
                > > > > > --- In ANE-2@yahoogroups.com < ,
                > > Joe
                > > > > Zias
                > > > > > <joezias@> wrote:
                > > > > > >
                > > > > > > David Stacey writes in connection to Goransons post the
                > > > > > following::The only dams from the Second Temple period of
                which
                > >
                > > I
                > > > > am
                > > > > > >
                > > > > > > aware are both considered to be the work of Herod and
                are
                > > > > integral
                > > > > > >
                > > > > > > parts of the water systems of two of his most
                prestigious
                > > cities,
                > > > > > >
                > > > > > > Jerusalem and Caesarea (high level aqueduct). Neither
                would
                > > have
                > > > > > had
                > > > > > >
                > > > > > > to withstand the same ferocity of floods as in Qumran.
                > > > > > >
                > > > > > > I would like to remind readers that a few kms up the
                road in
                > >
                > > the
                > > > > > 8th millineum BC the folks in Jericho were already
                constructing
                > >
                > > > > dams.
                > > > > > For the folks in Qumran I doub't if this was any mean
                feat,
                > > some
                > > > > > 8,000 yrs later.
                > > > > > >
                > > > > > > Joe
                > > > > > >
                > > > > > > Joe Zias www.joezias.com
                > > > > > > Anthropology/Paleopathology
                > > > > > >
                > > > > > > Science and Antiquity Group - Jerusalem
                > > > > > > Jerusalem, Israel
                > > > > > >
                > > >
                > >
                > >
                > >
                >
              • JEFFREY A BLAKELY
                Well, I guess the point I wish to make is that a truly major water project, such as the aqueduct system at Caesarea or the Marib dam, certainly would be state
                Message 7 of 20 , Mar 3 8:48 AM
                • 0 Attachment
                  Well, I guess the point I wish to make is that a truly major water project, such as the aqueduct system at Caesarea or the Marib dam, certainly would be state supported. One the other hand a small barrage dam and channel on a small wadi like at Qumran hardly rises to that level no matter how much force may be coming down the channel on occasion. The technology had been around for a long time.

                  Jeff Blakely
                  Madison, Wisconsin

                  ----- Original Message -----
                  From: dastacey62 <DAVID.STACEY63@...>
                  Date: Tuesday, March 3, 2009 9:52 am
                  Subject: [ANE-2] Re: daming [formerly ink from a Dead Sea Scroll ...]
                  To: ANE-2@yahoogroups.com


                  > Of course barrage dams existed in Judea. The point that I'm making,
                  > if it needs spelling out, is that all of the major dams requiring
                  > considerable know-how and huge resources were instigated by the state
                  >
                  > or the temple. The construction of the dam at Qumran and of the rock-
                  > cut channel required the sort of labour and financial resources,
                  > technical expertise and determination demonstrated by Herod in other
                  >
                  > of his building projects and should be associated with his expansion
                  >
                  > of the settlement in 31 BCE. The recent excavations of Magen and
                  > Peleg would appear to confirm this date.
                  >
                  > David Stacey
                  > UK
                  >
                  > --- In ANE-2@yahoogroups.com, JEFFREY A BLAKELY <jblakely@...> wrote:
                  > >
                  > > Good Morning
                  > >
                  > > Barrage dams feeding sluices and watering fields were a bit of
                  > a "doodle" by even 1200 BC in Yemen. If you look around Saba and
                  > Qataban evidence for them is all over the place in remnants and in
                  > agricultural fields built up by the silt in the runoff produced
                  > during floods. If you want a good example see the Marib Dam, a truly
                  >
                  > massive dam capable of taking on an incredible deluge and a dam that
                  >
                  > was in use for over a millennium. It is hard to believe that the
                  > knowledge did not reach the other end of the trade route.
                  > >
                  > > Jeffrey A. Blakely
                  > > Madison, WI
                • dastacey62
                  In June 2007 I visited the site of the dam a couple of weeks after a particularly ferocious flood had cleaned out the whole basin down to bedrock (and killed
                  Message 8 of 20 , Mar 4 1:02 AM
                  • 0 Attachment
                    In June 2007 I visited the site of the dam a couple of weeks after a particularly ferocious flood had cleaned out the whole basin down to bedrock (and killed two abseilers lower down the wadi). The entrance to the aqueduct some 4 or 5 metres higher was completely inaccessible, not only to an old fart like myself, but also to a young and agile PhD student I was showing around. How exactly the dam was built is hard to reconstruct. Presumably the stones were quarried in the basin itself but there was little room for a ramp to get them to the upper courses of the dam - I know I wouldn't have liked to have been one of the labourers involved - perhaps as it's apparently so insignificant a construction project you have ideas as to how it was built?

                    You accept that Caesarea was state supported. Owen Chesnut has mentioned barrages around Hyrcania and Masada, both building projects of Herod, who, incidentally, liked Jericho so much that he built himself three different palaces there, increasing the availablilty of water to them by extending the Hasmonean Na'aran aqueduct to take in the waters of Ein el-Auja some 14 kms to the north which is the same distance as Qumran is to the south. It would seem that Qumran was just a part of his Jericho estate and inter-connected with his other building projects. And archaeologically the date of the dam, which most logically was built together with the so-called- 'main' aqueduct system, can be no earlier than 31 BCE (see my article in DSD 14:2 (2007) - that's 'Dead Sea Discoveries' for those who find these acronyms obscure). This dating will probably be confirmed when the results of Magen and Peleg's excavations (even the preliminary publication was not available to me at the time I was writing the DSD article)are finally published (see Magen and Peleg 2007 p.8 amd fig 11).

                    Which takes us back all the way to the start of this correspondence when I asked how a scroll dated by some as early as the second century BCE could have been written in Qumran at a time when there was no possibility of year round occupation?

                    David Stacey


                    --- In ANE-2@yahoogroups.com, JEFFREY A BLAKELY <jblakely@...> wrote:
                    >
                    >
                    > Well, I guess the point I wish to make is that a truly major water project, such as the aqueduct system at Caesarea or the Marib dam, certainly would be state supported. One the other hand a small barrage dam and channel on a small wadi like at Qumran hardly rises to that level no matter how much force may be coming down the channel on occasion. The technology had been around for a long time.
                    >
                    > Jeff Blakely
                    > Madison, Wisconsin
                    >
                    > ----- Original Message -----
                    > From: dastacey62 <DAVID.STACEY63@...>
                    > Date: Tuesday, March 3, 2009 9:52 am
                    > Subject: [ANE-2] Re: daming [formerly ink from a Dead Sea Scroll ...]
                    > To: ANE-2@yahoogroups.com
                    >
                    >
                    > > Of course barrage dams existed in Judea. The point that I'm making,
                    > > if it needs spelling out, is that all of the major dams requiring
                    > > considerable know-how and huge resources were instigated by the state
                    > >
                    > > or the temple. The construction of the dam at Qumran and of the rock-
                    > > cut channel required the sort of labour and financial resources,
                    > > technical expertise and determination demonstrated by Herod in other
                    > >
                    > > of his building projects and should be associated with his expansion
                    > >
                    > > of the settlement in 31 BCE. The recent excavations of Magen and
                    > > Peleg would appear to confirm this date.
                    > >
                    > > David Stacey
                    > > UK
                    > >
                    > > --- In ANE-2@yahoogroups.com, JEFFREY A BLAKELY <jblakely@> wrote:
                    > > >
                    > > > Good Morning
                    > > >
                    > > > Barrage dams feeding sluices and watering fields were a bit of
                    > > a "doodle" by even 1200 BC in Yemen. If you look around Saba and
                    > > Qataban evidence for them is all over the place in remnants and in
                    > > agricultural fields built up by the silt in the runoff produced
                    > > during floods. If you want a good example see the Marib Dam, a truly
                    > >
                    > > massive dam capable of taking on an incredible deluge and a dam that
                    > >
                    > > was in use for over a millennium. It is hard to believe that the
                    > > knowledge did not reach the other end of the trade route.
                    > > >
                    > > > Jeffrey A. Blakely
                    > > > Madison, WI
                    >
                  • JEFFREY A BLAKELY
                    Clearly there is nothing at the Qumran dam site that identifies Herod as the builder, or maybe better the conscriptor since I doubt he personally built it.
                    Message 9 of 20 , Mar 4 7:28 AM
                    • 0 Attachment
                      Clearly there is nothing at the Qumran dam site that identifies Herod as the builder, or maybe better the conscriptor since I doubt he personally built it. One can certainly reconstruct a Herodian construction view from the extant evidence, just as one can reconstruct a sectarian construction view from that same evidence. We may differ on which is more likely. I will certainly agree with David, however, "I know I wouldn't have liked to have been one of the labourers involved." Its hot down there. On the method of construction, I would guess slowly and carefully during a dry season lest it be washed away. Beyond that we have no evidence.

                      Best wishes,
                      Jeffrey A. Blakely
                      Madison, WI


                      ----- Original Message -----
                      From: dastacey62 <DAVID.STACEY63@...>
                      Date: Wednesday, March 4, 2009 3:03 am
                      Subject: [ANE-2] Re: daming [formerly ink from a Dead Sea Scroll ...]
                      To: ANE-2@yahoogroups.com


                      > In June 2007 I visited the site of the dam a couple of weeks after a
                      > particularly ferocious flood had cleaned out the whole basin down to
                      > bedrock (and killed two abseilers lower down the wadi). The entrance
                      > to the aqueduct some 4 or 5 metres higher was completely inaccessible,
                      > not only to an old fart like myself, but also to a young and agile PhD
                      > student I was showing around. How exactly the dam was built is hard to
                      > reconstruct. Presumably the stones were quarried in the basin itself
                      > but there was little room for a ramp to get them to the upper courses
                      > of the dam - I know I wouldn't have liked to have been one of the
                      > labourers involved - perhaps as it's apparently so insignificant a
                      > construction project you have ideas as to how it was built?
                      >
                      >
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