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RE: [ANE-2] Re: ink from a Dead Sea Scroll made near the Dead Sea

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  • Joe Zias
    David Stacey on the subject of dams in antiquity writes If it was all so easy why didn t every Tom, Dick or Harry build dams all over the country? The answer
    Message 1 of 20 , Feb 28 1:05 PM
    • 0 Attachment
      David Stacey on the subject of dams in antiquity writes "If it was all so
      easy why didn't every Tom, Dick or Harry build dams all over the country?"
      The answer is simple, in the desert areas where rain fall is minimal as in
      Masada, Qumran and Jericho, dams are necessary to collect runoff from higher
      elevations. In areas where there is adequate seasonal rainfall or springs,
      such as Jerusalem, Caesarea, Beit Shean ect, they are unnecessary.



      Joe Zias



      From: ANE-2@yahoogroups.com [mailto:ANE-2@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of
      dastacey62
      Sent: Saturday, February 28, 2009 9:51 AM
      To: ANE-2@yahoogroups.com
      Subject: [ANE-2] Re: ink from a Dead Sea Scroll made near the Dead Sea



      So Joe, Building a dam 4 to 5 m high, with walls on average perhaps
      2.5 m thick, perhaps with foundations cut into the bedrock, was all a
      bit of a doddle. The fact that no trace of it has survived the floods
      of the past 2000 years indicates the forces it had to withstand. If
      it was all so easy why didn't every Tom, Dick or Harry build dams all
      over the country? The fact is that only Herod seems to have had the
      necessary knowledge and resources which he put to use in his two
      prestigious city water systems; for the high-level aqueduct at
      Caesarea, and the Wadi el-Biyar dam in the Solomons Pool system
      outside Jerusalem.
      David Stacey

      --- In ANE-2@yahoogroups.com <mailto:ANE-2%40yahoogroups.com> , Joe Zias
      <joezias@...> wrote:
      >
      > David Stacey writes in connection to Goransons post the
      following::The only dams from the Second Temple period of which I am
      >
      > aware are both considered to be the work of Herod and are integral
      >
      > parts of the water systems of two of his most prestigious cities,
      >
      > Jerusalem and Caesarea (high level aqueduct). Neither would have
      had
      >
      > to withstand the same ferocity of floods as in Qumran.
      >
      > I would like to remind readers that a few kms up the road in the
      8th millineum BC the folks in Jericho were already constructing dams.
      For the folks in Qumran I doub't if this was any mean feat, some
      8,000 yrs later.
      >
      > Joe
      >
      > Joe Zias www.joezias.com
      > Anthropology/Paleopathology
      >
      > Science and Antiquity Group - Jerusalem
      > Jerusalem, Israel
      >
      > --- On Thu, 2/26/09, dastacey62 <DAVID.STACEY63@...> wrote:
      > From: dastacey62 <DAVID.STACEY63@...>
      > Subject: [ANE-2] Re: ink from a Dead Sea Scroll made near the Dead
      Sea
      > To: ANE-2@yahoogroups.com <mailto:ANE-2%40yahoogroups.com>
      > Date: Thursday, February 26, 2009, 9:59 AM
      >
      >
      >
      >
      >
      >
      >
      >
      >
      >
      >
      >
      > Stephen It is noticeable how selective you are in what
      you want to
      >
      > draw to peoples attention. You did not, for example, inform this
      list
      >
      > of either my article in DSD 14:2 (2007) in which I showed that,
      from
      >
      > the archaeological data, the only buildings existing throughout
      >
      > seventy years of the Hasmonean period were the tower, the pottery
      >
      > kilns and the industrial building - no living quarters, not enough
      >
      > water for year round occupation, unlikely site for elite scribes. I
      >
      > also showed that the 'main' aqueduct and, with it, the expansion of
      >
      > Qumran, could not possible date earlier than 31 BCE. By merely
      >
      > ignoring it this fact will not go away. Nor did you mention my
      >
      > article in BAIAS 26 (2008) in which I suggested that during that
      time
      >
      > the site was a seasonal industrial area.
      >
      >
      >
      > To further consolidate the dating of the 'main' aqueduct I suggest
      >
      > you consider the dam that was eventually built across the mouth of
      a
      >
      > basin in Nahal Qumran to capture flood water. This dam must have
      been
      >
      > between 4 and 5 metres high and as such the base of the walls must
      >
      > have been c. 3m thick (compare with the Byzantine dams associated
      >
      > with the low-level aqueduct at Caesarea). It had to withstand the
      >
      > ferocity of torrential floods and would have been a considerable
      feet
      >
      > of engineering, requiring great technological know how and a large
      >
      > budget. The only dams from the Second Temple period of which I am
      >
      > aware are both considered to be the work of Herod and are integral
      >
      > parts of the water systems of two of his most prestigious cities,
      >
      > Jerusalem and Caesarea (high level aqueduct). Neither would have
      had
      >
      > to withstand the same ferocity of floods as in Qumran. The Qumran
      >
      > dam is clearly related to the expansion of the site which required
      >
      > the raising of the sides of the cistern L110 (as noted by de Vaux
      >
      > 1973: 9)and the two pools L117 and 118. A channel overflowing from
      >
      > the top of the raised side of L117 takes water to the NE. Magen and
      >
      > Peleg have traced part of this channel running over a 'northern'
      dump
      >
      > (Magen and Peleg 2007 Fig 11) which they date to 'the first half of
      >
      > the first century' (M and P 2007:8). When the material from
      >
      > this 'dump' is published it may well confirm my dating of
      the 'main'
      >
      > aqueduct to c. 31 BCE.
      >
      >
      >
      > As an archaeologist I can only address archaeological issues with
      >
      > any confidence. I can make no contribuition to the dating of the
      >
      > Thanksgiving Scroll. However I understand it has been dated as
      early
      >
      > as the 2nd century BCE (thus Eshel)or to about 40 BCE (thus Stokl)
      a
      >
      > period when there is no evidence for permanent occupation at
      Qumran.
      >
      > So even it is was written somewhere near the Dead Sea it's unlikely
      >
      > that it was at Qumran.
      >
      >
      >
      > David Stacey
      >
      >
      >
      > --- In ANE-2@yahoogroups. com, goranson@ wrote:
      >
      > >
      >
      > >
      >
      > > A new article reports measurements of the ratio of chlorine and
      >
      > bromine in ink
      >
      > > from a Qumran Cave One manuscript and concludes that the ink was
      >
      > prepared with
      >
      > > water from or near the Dead Sea; the Qumran scroll was inscribed
      >
      > near the Dead
      >
      > > Sea.
      >
      > >
      >
      > > Ira Rabin, Oliver Hahn, Timo Wolff, Admir Masic and Gisela
      >
      > Weinberg, "On the
      >
      > > Origin of the Ink of the Thanksgiving Scroll (1QHodayot a)," Dead
      >
      > Sea
      >
      > > Discoveries 16.1 (2009) 97-106.
      >
      > >
      >
      > > Abstract (p. 97): "In this study we demonstrate the possibility
      to
      >
      > > identify the
      >
      > > production area of the scrolls, coupling non-destructive
      >
      > quantitative analysis
      >
      > > of trace elements to spectroscopic investigation of the inks.
      This
      >
      > approach,
      >
      > > that allowed us to determine the Dead Sea area as origin of
      >
      > 1QHodayot a, is of
      >
      > > general validity."
      >
      > >
      >
      > > Conclusion (p. 102) "Using the fingerprint composition of the
      water
      >
      > from the
      >
      > > Dead Sea region we could directly link the fragment, and
      >
      > consequently, the
      >
      > > production of 1QHodayot a to the Qumran area. Furthermore, our
      >
      > study of
      >
      > > organic
      >
      > > components present in the carbon ink of this scroll indicates
      that
      >
      > gall nuts
      >
      > > extracts were used in the ink preparation as early as 1st century
      >
      > C.E."
      >
      > >
      >
      > > Stephen Goranson
      >
      > > http://www.duke edu/~goranson/ Essenes_& _Others.pdf
      >
      > > "Others and Intra-Jewish Polemic as Reflected in Qumran Texts"
      >
      > >
      >
      >
      >
      >
      >
      >
      >
      >
      >
      >
      >
      >
      >
      >
      >
      >
      >
      >
      >
      >
      >
      >
      >
      >
      >
      >
      >
      >
      > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
      >





      [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
    • David Hall
      The Nabateans built Shivtah near the Sinai border and other settlements of the Negev in the first century B.C.  There were dams and dam terraces constructed
      Message 2 of 20 , Feb 28 3:50 PM
      • 0 Attachment
        The Nabateans built Shivtah near the Sinai border and other settlements of the Negev in the first century B.C.  There were dams and dam terraces constructed across valleys for agriculture and domestic water use.  The Nabateans were annexed by Rome.  Later in the fourth century Christians perhaps Nabateans who converted to Christianity had these villages as evidenced by crosses on building stones, churches, and baptismals.  There is evidence they may have continued to repair and perhaps build more dams. 
         
        The Romans built numerous dams including one by Nero that was 40 meters/120 feet high in Italy for his private enjoyment.
         
        David Q. Hall 


        --- On Sat, 2/28/09, dastacey62 <DAVID.STACEY63@...> wrote:

        From: dastacey62 <DAVID.STACEY63@...>
        Subject: [ANE-2] Re: ink from a Dead Sea Scroll made near the Dead Sea
        To: ANE-2@yahoogroups.com
        Date: Saturday, February 28, 2009, 2:51 AM






        So Joe, Building a dam 4 to 5 m high, with walls on average perhaps
        2.5 m thick, perhaps with foundations cut into the bedrock, was all a
        bit of a doddle. The fact that no trace of it has survived the floods
        of the past 2000 years indicates the forces it had to withstand. If
        it was all so easy why didn't every Tom, Dick or Harry build dams all
        over the country? The fact is that only Herod seems to have had the
        necessary knowledge and resources which he put to use in his two
        prestigious city water systems; for the high-level aqueduct at
        Caesarea, and the Wadi el-Biyar dam in the Solomons Pool system
        outside Jerusalem.
        David Stacey

        --- In ANE-2@yahoogroups. com, Joe Zias <joezias@... > wrote:
        >
        > David Stacey writes in connection to Goransons post the
        following::The only dams from the Second Temple period of which I am
        >
        > aware are both considered to be the work of Herod and are integral
        >
        > parts of the water systems of two of his most prestigious cities,
        >
        > Jerusalem and Caesarea (high level aqueduct). Neither would have
        had
        >
        > to withstand the same ferocity of floods as in Qumran.
        >
        > I would like to remind readers that a few kms up the road in the
        8th millineum BC the folks in Jericho were already constructing dams.
        For the folks in Qumran I doub't if this was any mean feat, some
        8,000 yrs later.
        >
        > Joe
        >
        > Joe Zias www.joezias. com
        > Anthropology/ Paleopathology
        >
        > Science and Antiquity Group - Jerusalem
        > Jerusalem, Israel
        >
        > --- On Thu, 2/26/09, dastacey62 <DAVID.STACEY63@ ...> wrote:
        > From: dastacey62 <DAVID.STACEY63@ ...>
        > Subject: [ANE-2] Re: ink from a Dead Sea Scroll made near the Dead
        Sea
        > To: ANE-2@yahoogroups. com
        > Date: Thursday, February 26, 2009, 9:59 AM
        >
        >
        >
        >
        >
        >
        >
        >
        >
        >
        >
        >
        > Stephen It is noticeable how selective you are in what
        you want to
        >
        > draw to peoples attention. You did not, for example, inform this
        list
        >
        > of either my article in DSD 14:2 (2007) in which I showed that,
        from
        >
        > the archaeological data, the only buildings existing throughout
        >
        > seventy years of the Hasmonean period were the tower, the pottery
        >
        > kilns and the industrial building - no living quarters, not enough
        >
        > water for year round occupation, unlikely site for elite scribes. I
        >
        > also showed that the 'main' aqueduct and, with it, the expansion of
        >
        > Qumran, could not possible date earlier than 31 BCE. By merely
        >
        > ignoring it this fact will not go away. Nor did you mention my
        >
        > article in BAIAS 26 (2008) in which I suggested that during that
        time
        >
        > the site was a seasonal industrial area.
        >
        >
        >
        > To further consolidate the dating of the 'main' aqueduct I suggest
        >
        > you consider the dam that was eventually built across the mouth of
        a
        >
        > basin in Nahal Qumran to capture flood water. This dam must have
        been
        >
        > between 4 and 5 metres high and as such the base of the walls must
        >
        > have been c. 3m thick (compare with the Byzantine dams associated
        >
        > with the low-level aqueduct at Caesarea). It had to withstand the
        >
        > ferocity of torrential floods and would have been a considerable
        feet
        >
        > of engineering, requiring great technological know how and a large
        >
        > budget. The only dams from the Second Temple period of which I am
        >
        > aware are both considered to be the work of Herod and are integral
        >
        > parts of the water systems of two of his most prestigious cities,
        >
        > Jerusalem and Caesarea (high level aqueduct). Neither would have
        had
        >
        > to withstand the same ferocity of floods as in Qumran. The Qumran
        >
        > dam is clearly related to the expansion of the site which required
        >
        > the raising of the sides of the cistern L110 (as noted by de Vaux
        >
        > 1973: 9)and the two pools L117 and 118. A channel overflowing from
        >
        > the top of the raised side of L117 takes water to the NE. Magen and
        >
        > Peleg have traced part of this channel running over a 'northern'
        dump
        >
        > (Magen and Peleg 2007 Fig 11) which they date to 'the first half of
        >
        > the first century' (M and P 2007:8). When the material from
        >
        > this 'dump' is published it may well confirm my dating of
        the 'main'
        >
        > aqueduct to c. 31 BCE.
        >
        >
        >
        > As an archaeologist I can only address archaeological issues with
        >
        > any confidence. I can make no contribuition to the dating of the
        >
        > Thanksgiving Scroll. However I understand it has been dated as
        early
        >
        > as the 2nd century BCE (thus Eshel)or to about 40 BCE (thus Stokl)
        a
        >
        > period when there is no evidence for permanent occupation at
        Qumran.
        >
        > So even it is was written somewhere near the Dead Sea it's unlikely
        >
        > that it was at Qumran.
        >
        >
        >
        > David Stacey
        >
        >
        >
        > --- In ANE-2@yahoogroups. com, goranson@ wrote:
        >
        > >
        >
        > >
        >
        > > A new article reports measurements of the ratio of chlorine and
        >
        > bromine in ink
        >
        > > from a Qumran Cave One manuscript and concludes that the ink was
        >
        > prepared with
        >
        > > water from or near the Dead Sea; the Qumran scroll was inscribed
        >
        > near the Dead
        >
        > > Sea.
        >
        > >
        >
        > > Ira Rabin, Oliver Hahn, Timo Wolff, Admir Masic and Gisela
        >
        > Weinberg, "On the
        >
        > > Origin of the Ink of the Thanksgiving Scroll (1QHodayot a)," Dead
        >
        > Sea
        >
        > > Discoveries 16.1 (2009) 97-106.
        >
        > >
        >
        > > Abstract (p. 97): "In this study we demonstrate the possibility
        to
        >
        > > identify the
        >
        > > production area of the scrolls, coupling non-destructive
        >
        > quantitative analysis
        >
        > > of trace elements to spectroscopic investigation of the inks.
        This
        >
        > approach,
        >
        > > that allowed us to determine the Dead Sea area as origin of
        >
        > 1QHodayot a, is of
        >
        > > general validity."
        >
        > >
        >
        > > Conclusion (p. 102) "Using the fingerprint composition of the
        water
        >
        > from the
        >
        > > Dead Sea region we could directly link the fragment, and
        >
        > consequently, the
        >
        > > production of 1QHodayot a to the Qumran area. Furthermore, our
        >
        > study of
        >
        > > organic
        >
        > > components present in the carbon ink of this scroll indicates
        that
        >
        > gall nuts
        >
        > > extracts were used in the ink preparation as early as 1st century
        >
        > C.E."
        >
        > >
        >
        > > Stephen Goranson
        >
        > > http://www.duke edu/~goranson/ Essenes_& _Others.pdf
        >
        > > "Others and Intra-Jewish Polemic as Reflected in Qumran Texts"
        >
        > >
        >
        >
        >
        >
        >
        >
        >
        >
        >
        >
        >
        >
        >
        >
        >
        >
        >
        >
        >
        >
        >
        >
        >
        >
        >
        >
        >
        >
        > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
        >



















        [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
      • dastacey62
        Stephen, As the latest DSD will probably not reach CUL shelves for some time could you perhaps tell us whether 1. the authors suggest a source for the gall
        Message 3 of 20 , Mar 1, 2009
        • 0 Attachment
          Stephen, As the latest DSD will probably not reach CUL shelves for
          some time could you perhaps tell us whether 1. the authors suggest a
          source for the gall nuts (quercus ilex are found in the Galil, but
          I've never seen them around the Dead Sea); and 2. whether they
          suggest that the presence of bromine and chlorine was 'accidental' or
          was deliberately chosen because in some way it made better ink? In an
          earlier analysis (Archaeometry 38:1 2007)of red ink from the scrolls
          it was determined that cinnabar was used, probably imported from
          Spain, and that "the use of cinnabar has been discovered so far only
          in the Third Winter Palace of Herod the Great in Jericho".....

          David Stacey

          --- In ANE-2@yahoogroups.com, goranson@... wrote:
          >
          >
          > A new article reports measurements of the ratio of chlorine and
          bromine in ink
          > from a Qumran Cave One manuscript and concludes that the ink was
          prepared with
          > water from or near the Dead Sea; the Qumran scroll was inscribed
          near the Dead
          > Sea.
          >
          > Ira Rabin, Oliver Hahn, Timo Wolff, Admir Masic and Gisela
          Weinberg, "On the
          > Origin of the Ink of the Thanksgiving Scroll (1QHodayot a)," Dead
          Sea
          > Discoveries 16.1 (2009) 97-106.
          >
          > Abstract (p. 97): "In this study we demonstrate the possibility to
          > identify the
          > production area of the scrolls, coupling non-destructive
          quantitative analysis
          > of trace elements to spectroscopic investigation of the inks. This
          approach,
          > that allowed us to determine the Dead Sea area as origin of
          1QHodayot a, is of
          > general validity."
          >
          > Conclusion (p. 102) "Using the fingerprint composition of the water
          from the
          > Dead Sea region we could directly link the fragment, and
          consequently, the
          > production of 1QHodayot a to the Qumran area. Furthermore, our
          study of
          > organic
          > components present in the carbon ink of this scroll indicates that
          gall nuts
          > extracts were used in the ink preparation as early as 1st century
          C.E."
          >
          > Stephen Goranson
          > http://www.duke.edu/~goranson/Essenes_&_Others.pdf
          > "Others and Intra-Jewish Polemic as Reflected in Qumran Texts"
          >
        • dastacey62
          Well Joe, that s odd - there are no major dams at Masada or Jericho where you say they are necessary, and in fact the only two major Second Temple dams are in
          Message 4 of 20 , Mar 1, 2009
          • 0 Attachment
            Well Joe, that's odd - there are no major dams at Masada or Jericho
            where you say they are necessary, and in fact the only two major
            Second Temple dams are in Caesarea and Jerusalem where you say they
            are unnecessary... curioser and curiouser

            David Stacey

            UK
            --- In ANE-2@yahoogroups.com, "Joe Zias" <joezias@...> wrote:
            >
            > David Stacey on the subject of dams in antiquity writes "If it was
            all so
            > easy why didn't every Tom, Dick or Harry build dams all over the
            country?"
            > The answer is simple, in the desert areas where rain fall is
            minimal as in
            > Masada, Qumran and Jericho, dams are necessary to collect runoff
            from higher
            > elevations. In areas where there is adequate seasonal rainfall or
            springs,
            > such as Jerusalem, Caesarea, Beit Shean ect, they are unnecessary.
            >
            >
            >
            > Joe Zias
            >
            >
            >
            > From: ANE-2@yahoogroups.com [mailto:ANE-2@yahoogroups.com] On
            Behalf Of
            > dastacey62
            > Sent: Saturday, February 28, 2009 9:51 AM
            > To: ANE-2@yahoogroups.com
            > Subject: [ANE-2] Re: ink from a Dead Sea Scroll made near the Dead
            Sea
            >
            >
            >
            > So Joe, Building a dam 4 to 5 m high, with walls on average perhaps
            > 2.5 m thick, perhaps with foundations cut into the bedrock, was all
            a
            > bit of a doddle. The fact that no trace of it has survived the
            floods
            > of the past 2000 years indicates the forces it had to withstand. If
            > it was all so easy why didn't every Tom, Dick or Harry build dams
            all
            > over the country? The fact is that only Herod seems to have had the
            > necessary knowledge and resources which he put to use in his two
            > prestigious city water systems; for the high-level aqueduct at
            > Caesarea, and the Wadi el-Biyar dam in the Solomons Pool system
            > outside Jerusalem.
            > David Stacey
            >
            > --- In ANE-2@yahoogroups.com <mailto:ANE-2%40yahoogroups.com> , Joe
            Zias
            > <joezias@> wrote:
            > >
            > > David Stacey writes in connection to Goransons post the
            > following::The only dams from the Second Temple period of which I
            am
            > >
            > > aware are both considered to be the work of Herod and are
            integral
            > >
            > > parts of the water systems of two of his most prestigious cities,
            > >
            > > Jerusalem and Caesarea (high level aqueduct). Neither would have
            > had
            > >
            > > to withstand the same ferocity of floods as in Qumran.
            > >
            > > I would like to remind readers that a few kms up the road in the
            > 8th millineum BC the folks in Jericho were already constructing
            dams.
            > For the folks in Qumran I doub't if this was any mean feat, some
            > 8,000 yrs later.
            > >
            > > Joe
            > >
            > > Joe Zias www.joezias.com
            > > Anthropology/Paleopathology
            > >
            > > Science and Antiquity Group - Jerusalem
            > > Jerusalem, Israel
            > >
            > > --- On Thu, 2/26/09, dastacey62 <DAVID.STACEY63@> wrote:
            > > From: dastacey62 <DAVID.STACEY63@>
            > > Subject: [ANE-2] Re: ink from a Dead Sea Scroll made near the
            Dead
            > Sea
            > > To: ANE-2@yahoogroups.com <mailto:ANE-2%40yahoogroups.com>
            > > Date: Thursday, February 26, 2009, 9:59 AM
            > >
            > >
            > >
            > >
            > >
            > >
            > >
            > >
            > >
            > >
            > >
            > >
            > > Stephen It is noticeable how selective you are in what
            > you want to
            > >
            > > draw to peoples attention. You did not, for example, inform this
            > list
            > >
            > > of either my article in DSD 14:2 (2007) in which I showed that,
            > from
            > >
            > > the archaeological data, the only buildings existing throughout
            > >
            > > seventy years of the Hasmonean period were the tower, the pottery
            > >
            > > kilns and the industrial building - no living quarters, not
            enough
            > >
            > > water for year round occupation, unlikely site for elite scribes.
            I
            > >
            > > also showed that the 'main' aqueduct and, with it, the expansion
            of
            > >
            > > Qumran, could not possible date earlier than 31 BCE. By merely
            > >
            > > ignoring it this fact will not go away. Nor did you mention my
            > >
            > > article in BAIAS 26 (2008) in which I suggested that during that
            > time
            > >
            > > the site was a seasonal industrial area.
            > >
            > >
            > >
            > > To further consolidate the dating of the 'main' aqueduct I
            suggest
            > >
            > > you consider the dam that was eventually built across the mouth
            of
            > a
            > >
            > > basin in Nahal Qumran to capture flood water. This dam must have
            > been
            > >
            > > between 4 and 5 metres high and as such the base of the walls
            must
            > >
            > > have been c. 3m thick (compare with the Byzantine dams associated
            > >
            > > with the low-level aqueduct at Caesarea). It had to withstand the
            > >
            > > ferocity of torrential floods and would have been a considerable
            > feet
            > >
            > > of engineering, requiring great technological know how and a
            large
            > >
            > > budget. The only dams from the Second Temple period of which I am
            > >
            > > aware are both considered to be the work of Herod and are
            integral
            > >
            > > parts of the water systems of two of his most prestigious cities,
            > >
            > > Jerusalem and Caesarea (high level aqueduct). Neither would have
            > had
            > >
            > > to withstand the same ferocity of floods as in Qumran. The Qumran
            > >
            > > dam is clearly related to the expansion of the site which
            required
            > >
            > > the raising of the sides of the cistern L110 (as noted by de Vaux
            > >
            > > 1973: 9)and the two pools L117 and 118. A channel overflowing
            from
            > >
            > > the top of the raised side of L117 takes water to the NE. Magen
            and
            > >
            > > Peleg have traced part of this channel running over a 'northern'
            > dump
            > >
            > > (Magen and Peleg 2007 Fig 11) which they date to 'the first half
            of
            > >
            > > the first century' (M and P 2007:8). When the material from
            > >
            > > this 'dump' is published it may well confirm my dating of
            > the 'main'
            > >
            > > aqueduct to c. 31 BCE.
            > >
            > >
            > >
            > > As an archaeologist I can only address archaeological issues with
            > >
            > > any confidence. I can make no contribuition to the dating of the
            > >
            > > Thanksgiving Scroll. However I understand it has been dated as
            > early
            > >
            > > as the 2nd century BCE (thus Eshel)or to about 40 BCE (thus
            Stokl)
            > a
            > >
            > > period when there is no evidence for permanent occupation at
            > Qumran.
            > >
            > > So even it is was written somewhere near the Dead Sea it's
            unlikely
            > >
            > > that it was at Qumran.
            > >
            > >
            > >
            > > David Stacey
            > >
            > >
            > >
            > > --- In ANE-2@yahoogroups. com, goranson@ wrote:
            > >
            > > >
            > >
            > > >
            > >
            > > > A new article reports measurements of the ratio of chlorine and
            > >
            > > bromine in ink
            > >
            > > > from a Qumran Cave One manuscript and concludes that the ink
            was
            > >
            > > prepared with
            > >
            > > > water from or near the Dead Sea; the Qumran scroll was
            inscribed
            > >
            > > near the Dead
            > >
            > > > Sea.
            > >
            > > >
            > >
            > > > Ira Rabin, Oliver Hahn, Timo Wolff, Admir Masic and Gisela
            > >
            > > Weinberg, "On the
            > >
            > > > Origin of the Ink of the Thanksgiving Scroll (1QHodayot a),"
            Dead
            > >
            > > Sea
            > >
            > > > Discoveries 16.1 (2009) 97-106.
            > >
            > > >
            > >
            > > > Abstract (p. 97): "In this study we demonstrate the possibility
            > to
            > >
            > > > identify the
            > >
            > > > production area of the scrolls, coupling non-destructive
            > >
            > > quantitative analysis
            > >
            > > > of trace elements to spectroscopic investigation of the inks.
            > This
            > >
            > > approach,
            > >
            > > > that allowed us to determine the Dead Sea area as origin of
            > >
            > > 1QHodayot a, is of
            > >
            > > > general validity."
            > >
            > > >
            > >
            > > > Conclusion (p. 102) "Using the fingerprint composition of the
            > water
            > >
            > > from the
            > >
            > > > Dead Sea region we could directly link the fragment, and
            > >
            > > consequently, the
            > >
            > > > production of 1QHodayot a to the Qumran area. Furthermore, our
            > >
            > > study of
            > >
            > > > organic
            > >
            > > > components present in the carbon ink of this scroll indicates
            > that
            > >
            > > gall nuts
            > >
            > > > extracts were used in the ink preparation as early as 1st
            century
            > >
            > > C.E."
            > >
            > > >
            > >
            > > > Stephen Goranson
            > >
            > > > http://www.duke edu/~goranson/ Essenes_& _Others.pdf
            > >
            > > > "Others and Intra-Jewish Polemic as Reflected in Qumran Texts"
            > >
            > > >
            > >
            > >
            > >
            > >
            > >
            > >
            > >
            > >
            > >
            > >
            > >
            > >
            > >
            > >
            > >
            > >
            > >
            > >
            > >
            > >
            > >
            > >
            > >
            > >
            > >
            > >
            > >
            > >
            > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
            > >
            >
            >
            >
            >
            >
            > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
            >
          • theodc25
            Quite close to Qumran, is the Buqe ah Valley which has substantial evidence of intensive agricultural production including dams, terraces, and walls built for
            Message 5 of 20 , Mar 1, 2009
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              Quite close to Qumran, is the Buqe'ah Valley which has substantial
              evidence of intensive agricultural production including dams,
              terraces, and walls built for pools. The major sites in valley are
              Khirbet Abu Tabaq, Khirbet es-Samrah, and Khirbet el-Maqari partially
              excavated by Cross and Milik, and further research was done by Stager.
              The sites, terracing, and dams are all dated around the 8th/7th
              century BCE based on lmlk jars and other pottery found at the sites.

              It has been suggested that much of this area was reused in the 3rd
              cent BCE-1st cent CE, because of the close proximity of Hyrcania, a
              Roman road running through the valley to Qumran, and some late
              Hellenistic/early Roman pottery that was found at the forts. Also I
              thought there were dams around Masada?

              Owen Chesnut
              Ph.D. Candidate
              Andrews University




              --- In ANE-2@yahoogroups.com, "dastacey62" <DAVID.STACEY63@...> wrote:
              >
              > Well Joe, that's odd - there are no major dams at Masada or Jericho
              > where you say they are necessary, and in fact the only two major
              > Second Temple dams are in Caesarea and Jerusalem where you say they
              > are unnecessary... curioser and curiouser
              >
              > David Stacey
              >
              > UK
              > --- In ANE-2@yahoogroups.com, "Joe Zias" <joezias@> wrote:
              > >
              > > David Stacey on the subject of dams in antiquity writes "If it was
              > all so
              > > easy why didn't every Tom, Dick or Harry build dams all over the
              > country?"
              > > The answer is simple, in the desert areas where rain fall is
              > minimal as in
              > > Masada, Qumran and Jericho, dams are necessary to collect runoff
              > from higher
              > > elevations. In areas where there is adequate seasonal rainfall or
              > springs,
              > > such as Jerusalem, Caesarea, Beit Shean ect, they are unnecessary.
              > >
              > >
              > >
              > > Joe Zias
              > >
              > >
              > >
              > > From: ANE-2@yahoogroups.com [mailto:ANE-2@yahoogroups.com] On
              > Behalf Of
              > > dastacey62
              > > Sent: Saturday, February 28, 2009 9:51 AM
              > > To: ANE-2@yahoogroups.com
              > > Subject: [ANE-2] Re: ink from a Dead Sea Scroll made near the Dead
              > Sea
              > >
              > >
              > >
              > > So Joe, Building a dam 4 to 5 m high, with walls on average perhaps
              > > 2.5 m thick, perhaps with foundations cut into the bedrock, was all
              > a
              > > bit of a doddle. The fact that no trace of it has survived the
              > floods
              > > of the past 2000 years indicates the forces it had to withstand. If
              > > it was all so easy why didn't every Tom, Dick or Harry build dams
              > all
              > > over the country? The fact is that only Herod seems to have had the
              > > necessary knowledge and resources which he put to use in his two
              > > prestigious city water systems; for the high-level aqueduct at
              > > Caesarea, and the Wadi el-Biyar dam in the Solomons Pool system
              > > outside Jerusalem.
              > > David Stacey
              > >
              > > --- In ANE-2@yahoogroups.com <mailto:ANE-2%40yahoogroups.com> , Joe
              > Zias
              > > <joezias@> wrote:
              > > >
              > > > David Stacey writes in connection to Goransons post the
              > > following::The only dams from the Second Temple period of which I
              > am
              > > >
              > > > aware are both considered to be the work of Herod and are
              > integral
              > > >
              > > > parts of the water systems of two of his most prestigious cities,
              > > >
              > > > Jerusalem and Caesarea (high level aqueduct). Neither would have
              > > had
              > > >
              > > > to withstand the same ferocity of floods as in Qumran.
              > > >
              > > > I would like to remind readers that a few kms up the road in the
              > > 8th millineum BC the folks in Jericho were already constructing
              > dams.
              > > For the folks in Qumran I doub't if this was any mean feat, some
              > > 8,000 yrs later.
              > > >
              > > > Joe
              > > >
              > > > Joe Zias www.joezias.com
              > > > Anthropology/Paleopathology
              > > >
              > > > Science and Antiquity Group - Jerusalem
              > > > Jerusalem, Israel
              > > >
            • dastacey62
              Most of these dams are, are they not, on a fairly minor scale and would not have had to withstand the sort of terrific force present in flash floods as they
              Message 6 of 20 , Mar 3, 2009
              • 0 Attachment
                Most of these dams are, are they not, on a fairly minor scale and
                would not have had to withstand the sort of terrific force present
                in flash floods as they thunder down Nahal Qumran. The power of such
                flash floods is an awesome sight. The dam at Qumran would have been 4
                or 5 metres high and would have needed to have walls at least 3m
                thick at the base. Yet it probably needed some sort of sluice system
                to, if necessary, relieve the pressure of the initial torrent. This
                required considerable hydrological knowledge and was not your average
                agricultural installation.

                David Stacey
                -
                -- In ANE-2@yahoogroups.com, "theodc25" <chesnut@...> wrote:
                >
                > Quite close to Qumran, is the Buqe'ah Valley which has substantial
                > evidence of intensive agricultural production including dams,
                > terraces, and walls built for pools. The major sites in valley are
                > Khirbet Abu Tabaq, Khirbet es-Samrah, and Khirbet el-Maqari
                partially
                > excavated by Cross and Milik, and further research was done by
                Stager.
                > The sites, terracing, and dams are all dated around the 8th/7th
                > century BCE based on lmlk jars and other pottery found at the
                sites.
                >
                > It has been suggested that much of this area was reused in the 3rd
                > cent BCE-1st cent CE, because of the close proximity of Hyrcania, a
                > Roman road running through the valley to Qumran, and some late
                > Hellenistic/early Roman pottery that was found at the forts. Also I
                > thought there were dams around Masada?
                >
                > Owen Chesnut
                > Ph.D. Candidate
                > Andrews University
                >
                >
                >
                >
                > --- In ANE-2@yahoogroups.com, "dastacey62" <DAVID.STACEY63@> wrote:
                > >
                > > Well Joe, that's odd - there are no major dams at Masada or
                Jericho
                > > where you say they are necessary, and in fact the only two major
                > > Second Temple dams are in Caesarea and Jerusalem where you say
                they
                > > are unnecessary... curioser and curiouser
                > >
                > > David Stacey
                > >
                > > UK
                > > --- In ANE-2@yahoogroups.com, "Joe Zias" <joezias@> wrote:
                > > >
                > > > David Stacey on the subject of dams in antiquity writes "If it
                was
                > > all so
                > > > easy why didn't every Tom, Dick or Harry build dams all over
                the
                > > country?"
                > > > The answer is simple, in the desert areas where rain fall is
                > > minimal as in
                > > > Masada, Qumran and Jericho, dams are necessary to collect
                runoff
                > > from higher
                > > > elevations. In areas where there is adequate seasonal rainfall
                or
                > > springs,
                > > > such as Jerusalem, Caesarea, Beit Shean ect, they are
                unnecessary.
                > > >
                > > >
                > > >
                > > > Joe Zias
                > > >
                > > >
                > > >
                > > > From: ANE-2@yahoogroups.com [mailto:ANE-2@yahoogroups.com] On
                > > Behalf Of
                > > > dastacey62
                > > > Sent: Saturday, February 28, 2009 9:51 AM
                > > > To: ANE-2@yahoogroups.com
                > > > Subject: [ANE-2] Re: ink from a Dead Sea Scroll made near the
                Dead
                > > Sea
                > > >
                > > >
                > > >
                > > > So Joe, Building a dam 4 to 5 m high, with walls on average
                perhaps
                > > > 2.5 m thick, perhaps with foundations cut into the bedrock, was
                all
                > > a
                > > > bit of a doddle. The fact that no trace of it has survived the
                > > floods
                > > > of the past 2000 years indicates the forces it had to
                withstand. If
                > > > it was all so easy why didn't every Tom, Dick or Harry build
                dams
                > > all
                > > > over the country? The fact is that only Herod seems to have had
                the
                > > > necessary knowledge and resources which he put to use in his
                two
                > > > prestigious city water systems; for the high-level aqueduct at
                > > > Caesarea, and the Wadi el-Biyar dam in the Solomons Pool system
                > > > outside Jerusalem.
                > > > David Stacey
                > > >
                > > > --- In ANE-2@yahoogroups.com <mailto:ANE-2%40yahoogroups.com> ,
                Joe
                > > Zias
                > > > <joezias@> wrote:
                > > > >
                > > > > David Stacey writes in connection to Goransons post the
                > > > following::The only dams from the Second Temple period of which
                I
                > > am
                > > > >
                > > > > aware are both considered to be the work of Herod and are
                > > integral
                > > > >
                > > > > parts of the water systems of two of his most prestigious
                cities,
                > > > >
                > > > > Jerusalem and Caesarea (high level aqueduct). Neither would
                have
                > > > had
                > > > >
                > > > > to withstand the same ferocity of floods as in Qumran.
                > > > >
                > > > > I would like to remind readers that a few kms up the road in
                the
                > > > 8th millineum BC the folks in Jericho were already constructing
                > > dams.
                > > > For the folks in Qumran I doub't if this was any mean feat,
                some
                > > > 8,000 yrs later.
                > > > >
                > > > > Joe
                > > > >
                > > > > Joe Zias www.joezias.com
                > > > > Anthropology/Paleopathology
                > > > >
                > > > > Science and Antiquity Group - Jerusalem
                > > > > Jerusalem, Israel
                > > > >
                >
              • JEFFREY A BLAKELY
                Good Morning Barrage dams feeding sluices and watering fields were a bit of a doodle by even 1200 BC in Yemen. If you look around Saba and Qataban evidence
                Message 7 of 20 , Mar 3, 2009
                • 0 Attachment
                  Good Morning

                  Barrage dams feeding sluices and watering fields were a bit of a "doodle" by even 1200 BC in Yemen. If you look around Saba and Qataban evidence for them is all over the place in remnants and in agricultural fields built up by the silt in the runoff produced during floods. If you want a good example see the Marib Dam, a truly massive dam capable of taking on an incredible deluge and a dam that was in use for over a millennium. It is hard to believe that the knowledge did not reach the other end of the trade route.

                  Jeffrey A. Blakely
                  Madison, WI

                  ----- Original Message -----
                  From: dastacey62 <DAVID.STACEY63@...>
                  Date: Tuesday, March 3, 2009 4:04 am
                  Subject: [ANE-2] Re: ink from a Dead Sea Scroll made near the Dead Sea
                  To: ANE-2@yahoogroups.com


                  > Most of these dams are, are they not, on a fairly minor scale and
                  > would not have had to withstand the sort of terrific force present
                  > in flash floods as they thunder down Nahal Qumran. The power of such
                  >
                  > flash floods is an awesome sight. The dam at Qumran would have been 4
                  >
                  > or 5 metres high and would have needed to have walls at least 3m
                  > thick at the base. Yet it probably needed some sort of sluice system
                  >
                  > to, if necessary, relieve the pressure of the initial torrent. This
                  > required considerable hydrological knowledge and was not your average
                  >
                  > agricultural installation.
                  >
                  > David Stacey
                  > -
                  > -- In ANE-2@yahoogroups.com, "theodc25" <chesnut@...> wrote:
                  > >
                  > > Quite close to Qumran, is the Buqe'ah Valley which has substantial
                  > > evidence of intensive agricultural production including dams,
                  > > terraces, and walls built for pools. The major sites in valley are
                  > > Khirbet Abu Tabaq, Khirbet es-Samrah, and Khirbet el-Maqari
                  > partially
                  > > excavated by Cross and Milik, and further research was done by
                  > Stager.
                  > > The sites, terracing, and dams are all dated around the 8th/7th
                  > > century BCE based on lmlk jars and other pottery found at the
                  > sites.
                  > >
                  > > It has been suggested that much of this area was reused in the 3rd
                  > > cent BCE-1st cent CE, because of the close proximity of Hyrcania, a
                  > > Roman road running through the valley to Qumran, and some late
                  > > Hellenistic/early Roman pottery that was found at the forts. Also
                  > I
                  > > thought there were dams around Masada?
                  > >
                  > > Owen Chesnut
                  > > Ph.D. Candidate
                  > > Andrews University
                  > >
                  > >
                  > >
                  > >
                  > > --- In ANE-2@yahoogroups.com, "dastacey62" <DAVID.STACEY63@> wrote:
                  > > >
                  > > > Well Joe, that's odd - there are no major dams at Masada or
                  > Jericho
                  > > > where you say they are necessary, and in fact the only two major
                  >
                  > > > Second Temple dams are in Caesarea and Jerusalem where you say
                  > they
                  > > > are unnecessary... curioser and curiouser
                  > > >
                  > > > David Stacey
                  > > >
                  > > > UK
                  > > > --- In ANE-2@yahoogroups.com, "Joe Zias" <joezias@> wrote:
                  > > > >
                  > > > > David Stacey on the subject of dams in antiquity writes "If it
                  >
                  > was
                  > > > all so
                  > > > > easy why didn't every Tom, Dick or Harry build dams all over
                  > the
                  > > > country?"
                  > > > > The answer is simple, in the desert areas where rain fall is
                  > > > minimal as in
                  > > > > Masada, Qumran and Jericho, dams are necessary to collect
                  > runoff
                  > > > from higher
                  > > > > elevations. In areas where there is adequate seasonal rainfall
                  >
                  > or
                  > > > springs,
                  > > > > such as Jerusalem, Caesarea, Beit Shean ect, they are
                  > unnecessary.
                  > > > >
                  > > > >
                  > > > >
                  > > > > Joe Zias
                  > > > >
                  > > > >
                  > > > >
                  > > > > From: ANE-2@yahoogroups.com [mailto:ANE-2@yahoogroups.com] On
                  > > > Behalf Of
                  > > > > dastacey62
                  > > > > Sent: Saturday, February 28, 2009 9:51 AM
                  > > > > To: ANE-2@yahoogroups.com
                  > > > > Subject: [ANE-2] Re: ink from a Dead Sea Scroll made near the
                  > Dead
                  > > > Sea
                  > > > >
                  > > > >
                  > > > >
                  > > > > So Joe, Building a dam 4 to 5 m high, with walls on average
                  > perhaps
                  > > > > 2.5 m thick, perhaps with foundations cut into the bedrock, was
                  >
                  > all
                  > > > a
                  > > > > bit of a doddle. The fact that no trace of it has survived the
                  >
                  > > > floods
                  > > > > of the past 2000 years indicates the forces it had to
                  > withstand. If
                  > > > > it was all so easy why didn't every Tom, Dick or Harry build
                  > dams
                  > > > all
                  > > > > over the country? The fact is that only Herod seems to have had
                  >
                  > the
                  > > > > necessary knowledge and resources which he put to use in his
                  > two
                  > > > > prestigious city water systems; for the high-level aqueduct at
                  >
                  > > > > Caesarea, and the Wadi el-Biyar dam in the Solomons Pool system
                  >
                  > > > > outside Jerusalem.
                  > > > > David Stacey
                  > > > >
                  > > > > --- In ANE-2@yahoogroups.com < ,
                  > Joe
                  > > > Zias
                  > > > > <joezias@> wrote:
                  > > > > >
                  > > > > > David Stacey writes in connection to Goransons post the
                  > > > > following::The only dams from the Second Temple period of which
                  >
                  > I
                  > > > am
                  > > > > >
                  > > > > > aware are both considered to be the work of Herod and are
                  > > > integral
                  > > > > >
                  > > > > > parts of the water systems of two of his most prestigious
                  > cities,
                  > > > > >
                  > > > > > Jerusalem and Caesarea (high level aqueduct). Neither would
                  > have
                  > > > > had
                  > > > > >
                  > > > > > to withstand the same ferocity of floods as in Qumran.
                  > > > > >
                  > > > > > I would like to remind readers that a few kms up the road in
                  >
                  > the
                  > > > > 8th millineum BC the folks in Jericho were already constructing
                  >
                  > > > dams.
                  > > > > For the folks in Qumran I doub't if this was any mean feat,
                  > some
                  > > > > 8,000 yrs later.
                  > > > > >
                  > > > > > Joe
                  > > > > >
                  > > > > > Joe Zias www.joezias.com
                  > > > > > Anthropology/Paleopathology
                  > > > > >
                  > > > > > Science and Antiquity Group - Jerusalem
                  > > > > > Jerusalem, Israel
                  > > > > >
                  > >
                  >
                  >
                  >
                • dastacey62
                  Of course barrage dams existed in Judea. The point that I m making, if it needs spelling out, is that all of the major dams requiring considerable know-how
                  Message 8 of 20 , Mar 3, 2009
                  • 0 Attachment
                    Of course barrage dams existed in Judea. The point that I'm making,
                    if it needs spelling out, is that all of the major dams requiring
                    considerable know-how and huge resources were instigated by the state
                    or the temple. The construction of the dam at Qumran and of the rock-
                    cut channel required the sort of labour and financial resources,
                    technical expertise and determination demonstrated by Herod in other
                    of his building projects and should be associated with his expansion
                    of the settlement in 31 BCE. The recent excavations of Magen and
                    Peleg would appear to confirm this date.

                    David Stacey
                    UK

                    --- In ANE-2@yahoogroups.com, JEFFREY A BLAKELY <jblakely@...> wrote:
                    >
                    > Good Morning
                    >
                    > Barrage dams feeding sluices and watering fields were a bit of
                    a "doodle" by even 1200 BC in Yemen. If you look around Saba and
                    Qataban evidence for them is all over the place in remnants and in
                    agricultural fields built up by the silt in the runoff produced
                    during floods. If you want a good example see the Marib Dam, a truly
                    massive dam capable of taking on an incredible deluge and a dam that
                    was in use for over a millennium. It is hard to believe that the
                    knowledge did not reach the other end of the trade route.
                    >
                    > Jeffrey A. Blakely
                    > Madison, WI
                    >
                    > ----- Original Message -----
                    > From: dastacey62 <DAVID.STACEY63@...>
                    > Date: Tuesday, March 3, 2009 4:04 am
                    > Subject: [ANE-2] Re: ink from a Dead Sea Scroll made near the Dead
                    Sea
                    > To: ANE-2@yahoogroups.com
                    >
                    >
                    > > Most of these dams are, are they not, on a fairly minor scale and
                    > > would not have had to withstand the sort of terrific force
                    present
                    > > in flash floods as they thunder down Nahal Qumran. The power of
                    such
                    > >
                    > > flash floods is an awesome sight. The dam at Qumran would have
                    been 4
                    > >
                    > > or 5 metres high and would have needed to have walls at least 3m
                    > > thick at the base. Yet it probably needed some sort of sluice
                    system
                    > >
                    > > to, if necessary, relieve the pressure of the initial torrent.
                    This
                    > > required considerable hydrological knowledge and was not your
                    average
                    > >
                    > > agricultural installation.
                    > >
                    > > David Stacey
                    > > -
                    > > -- In ANE-2@yahoogroups.com, "theodc25" <chesnut@> wrote:
                    > > >
                    > > > Quite close to Qumran, is the Buqe'ah Valley which has
                    substantial
                    > > > evidence of intensive agricultural production including dams,
                    > > > terraces, and walls built for pools. The major sites in
                    valley are
                    > > > Khirbet Abu Tabaq, Khirbet es-Samrah, and Khirbet el-Maqari
                    > > partially
                    > > > excavated by Cross and Milik, and further research was done by
                    > > Stager.
                    > > > The sites, terracing, and dams are all dated around the
                    8th/7th
                    > > > century BCE based on lmlk jars and other pottery found at the
                    > > sites.
                    > > >
                    > > > It has been suggested that much of this area was reused in the
                    3rd
                    > > > cent BCE-1st cent CE, because of the close proximity of
                    Hyrcania, a
                    > > > Roman road running through the valley to Qumran, and some late
                    > > > Hellenistic/early Roman pottery that was found at the forts.
                    Also
                    > > I
                    > > > thought there were dams around Masada?
                    > > >
                    > > > Owen Chesnut
                    > > > Ph.D. Candidate
                    > > > Andrews University
                    > > >
                    > > >
                    > > >
                    > > >
                    > > > --- In ANE-2@yahoogroups.com, "dastacey62" <DAVID.STACEY63@>
                    wrote:
                    > > > >
                    > > > > Well Joe, that's odd - there are no major dams at Masada or
                    > > Jericho
                    > > > > where you say they are necessary, and in fact the only two
                    major
                    > >
                    > > > > Second Temple dams are in Caesarea and Jerusalem where you
                    say
                    > > they
                    > > > > are unnecessary... curioser and curiouser
                    > > > >
                    > > > > David Stacey
                    > > > >
                    > > > > UK
                    > > > > --- In ANE-2@yahoogroups.com, "Joe Zias" <joezias@> wrote:
                    > > > > >
                    > > > > > David Stacey on the subject of dams in antiquity
                    writes "If it
                    > >
                    > > was
                    > > > > all so
                    > > > > > easy why didn't every Tom, Dick or Harry build dams all
                    over
                    > > the
                    > > > > country?"
                    > > > > > The answer is simple, in the desert areas where rain fall
                    is
                    > > > > minimal as in
                    > > > > > Masada, Qumran and Jericho, dams are necessary to collect
                    > > runoff
                    > > > > from higher
                    > > > > > elevations. In areas where there is adequate seasonal
                    rainfall
                    > >
                    > > or
                    > > > > springs,
                    > > > > > such as Jerusalem, Caesarea, Beit Shean ect, they are
                    > > unnecessary.
                    > > > > >
                    > > > > >
                    > > > > >
                    > > > > > Joe Zias
                    > > > > >
                    > > > > >
                    > > > > >
                    > > > > > From: ANE-2@yahoogroups.com [mailto:ANE-2@yahoogroups.com]
                    On
                    > > > > Behalf Of
                    > > > > > dastacey62
                    > > > > > Sent: Saturday, February 28, 2009 9:51 AM
                    > > > > > To: ANE-2@yahoogroups.com
                    > > > > > Subject: [ANE-2] Re: ink from a Dead Sea Scroll made near
                    the
                    > > Dead
                    > > > > Sea
                    > > > > >
                    > > > > >
                    > > > > >
                    > > > > > So Joe, Building a dam 4 to 5 m high, with walls on
                    average
                    > > perhaps
                    > > > > > 2.5 m thick, perhaps with foundations cut into the
                    bedrock, was
                    > >
                    > > all
                    > > > > a
                    > > > > > bit of a doddle. The fact that no trace of it has survived
                    the
                    > >
                    > > > > floods
                    > > > > > of the past 2000 years indicates the forces it had to
                    > > withstand. If
                    > > > > > it was all so easy why didn't every Tom, Dick or Harry
                    build
                    > > dams
                    > > > > all
                    > > > > > over the country? The fact is that only Herod seems to
                    have had
                    > >
                    > > the
                    > > > > > necessary knowledge and resources which he put to use in
                    his
                    > > two
                    > > > > > prestigious city water systems; for the high-level
                    aqueduct at
                    > >
                    > > > > > Caesarea, and the Wadi el-Biyar dam in the Solomons Pool
                    system
                    > >
                    > > > > > outside Jerusalem.
                    > > > > > David Stacey
                    > > > > >
                    > > > > > --- In ANE-2@yahoogroups.com < ,
                    > > Joe
                    > > > > Zias
                    > > > > > <joezias@> wrote:
                    > > > > > >
                    > > > > > > David Stacey writes in connection to Goransons post the
                    > > > > > following::The only dams from the Second Temple period of
                    which
                    > >
                    > > I
                    > > > > am
                    > > > > > >
                    > > > > > > aware are both considered to be the work of Herod and
                    are
                    > > > > integral
                    > > > > > >
                    > > > > > > parts of the water systems of two of his most
                    prestigious
                    > > cities,
                    > > > > > >
                    > > > > > > Jerusalem and Caesarea (high level aqueduct). Neither
                    would
                    > > have
                    > > > > > had
                    > > > > > >
                    > > > > > > to withstand the same ferocity of floods as in Qumran.
                    > > > > > >
                    > > > > > > I would like to remind readers that a few kms up the
                    road in
                    > >
                    > > the
                    > > > > > 8th millineum BC the folks in Jericho were already
                    constructing
                    > >
                    > > > > dams.
                    > > > > > For the folks in Qumran I doub't if this was any mean
                    feat,
                    > > some
                    > > > > > 8,000 yrs later.
                    > > > > > >
                    > > > > > > Joe
                    > > > > > >
                    > > > > > > Joe Zias www.joezias.com
                    > > > > > > Anthropology/Paleopathology
                    > > > > > >
                    > > > > > > Science and Antiquity Group - Jerusalem
                    > > > > > > Jerusalem, Israel
                    > > > > > >
                    > > >
                    > >
                    > >
                    > >
                    >
                  • JEFFREY A BLAKELY
                    Well, I guess the point I wish to make is that a truly major water project, such as the aqueduct system at Caesarea or the Marib dam, certainly would be state
                    Message 9 of 20 , Mar 3, 2009
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                      Well, I guess the point I wish to make is that a truly major water project, such as the aqueduct system at Caesarea or the Marib dam, certainly would be state supported. One the other hand a small barrage dam and channel on a small wadi like at Qumran hardly rises to that level no matter how much force may be coming down the channel on occasion. The technology had been around for a long time.

                      Jeff Blakely
                      Madison, Wisconsin

                      ----- Original Message -----
                      From: dastacey62 <DAVID.STACEY63@...>
                      Date: Tuesday, March 3, 2009 9:52 am
                      Subject: [ANE-2] Re: daming [formerly ink from a Dead Sea Scroll ...]
                      To: ANE-2@yahoogroups.com


                      > Of course barrage dams existed in Judea. The point that I'm making,
                      > if it needs spelling out, is that all of the major dams requiring
                      > considerable know-how and huge resources were instigated by the state
                      >
                      > or the temple. The construction of the dam at Qumran and of the rock-
                      > cut channel required the sort of labour and financial resources,
                      > technical expertise and determination demonstrated by Herod in other
                      >
                      > of his building projects and should be associated with his expansion
                      >
                      > of the settlement in 31 BCE. The recent excavations of Magen and
                      > Peleg would appear to confirm this date.
                      >
                      > David Stacey
                      > UK
                      >
                      > --- In ANE-2@yahoogroups.com, JEFFREY A BLAKELY <jblakely@...> wrote:
                      > >
                      > > Good Morning
                      > >
                      > > Barrage dams feeding sluices and watering fields were a bit of
                      > a "doodle" by even 1200 BC in Yemen. If you look around Saba and
                      > Qataban evidence for them is all over the place in remnants and in
                      > agricultural fields built up by the silt in the runoff produced
                      > during floods. If you want a good example see the Marib Dam, a truly
                      >
                      > massive dam capable of taking on an incredible deluge and a dam that
                      >
                      > was in use for over a millennium. It is hard to believe that the
                      > knowledge did not reach the other end of the trade route.
                      > >
                      > > Jeffrey A. Blakely
                      > > Madison, WI
                    • dastacey62
                      In June 2007 I visited the site of the dam a couple of weeks after a particularly ferocious flood had cleaned out the whole basin down to bedrock (and killed
                      Message 10 of 20 , Mar 4, 2009
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                        In June 2007 I visited the site of the dam a couple of weeks after a particularly ferocious flood had cleaned out the whole basin down to bedrock (and killed two abseilers lower down the wadi). The entrance to the aqueduct some 4 or 5 metres higher was completely inaccessible, not only to an old fart like myself, but also to a young and agile PhD student I was showing around. How exactly the dam was built is hard to reconstruct. Presumably the stones were quarried in the basin itself but there was little room for a ramp to get them to the upper courses of the dam - I know I wouldn't have liked to have been one of the labourers involved - perhaps as it's apparently so insignificant a construction project you have ideas as to how it was built?

                        You accept that Caesarea was state supported. Owen Chesnut has mentioned barrages around Hyrcania and Masada, both building projects of Herod, who, incidentally, liked Jericho so much that he built himself three different palaces there, increasing the availablilty of water to them by extending the Hasmonean Na'aran aqueduct to take in the waters of Ein el-Auja some 14 kms to the north which is the same distance as Qumran is to the south. It would seem that Qumran was just a part of his Jericho estate and inter-connected with his other building projects. And archaeologically the date of the dam, which most logically was built together with the so-called- 'main' aqueduct system, can be no earlier than 31 BCE (see my article in DSD 14:2 (2007) - that's 'Dead Sea Discoveries' for those who find these acronyms obscure). This dating will probably be confirmed when the results of Magen and Peleg's excavations (even the preliminary publication was not available to me at the time I was writing the DSD article)are finally published (see Magen and Peleg 2007 p.8 amd fig 11).

                        Which takes us back all the way to the start of this correspondence when I asked how a scroll dated by some as early as the second century BCE could have been written in Qumran at a time when there was no possibility of year round occupation?

                        David Stacey


                        --- In ANE-2@yahoogroups.com, JEFFREY A BLAKELY <jblakely@...> wrote:
                        >
                        >
                        > Well, I guess the point I wish to make is that a truly major water project, such as the aqueduct system at Caesarea or the Marib dam, certainly would be state supported. One the other hand a small barrage dam and channel on a small wadi like at Qumran hardly rises to that level no matter how much force may be coming down the channel on occasion. The technology had been around for a long time.
                        >
                        > Jeff Blakely
                        > Madison, Wisconsin
                        >
                        > ----- Original Message -----
                        > From: dastacey62 <DAVID.STACEY63@...>
                        > Date: Tuesday, March 3, 2009 9:52 am
                        > Subject: [ANE-2] Re: daming [formerly ink from a Dead Sea Scroll ...]
                        > To: ANE-2@yahoogroups.com
                        >
                        >
                        > > Of course barrage dams existed in Judea. The point that I'm making,
                        > > if it needs spelling out, is that all of the major dams requiring
                        > > considerable know-how and huge resources were instigated by the state
                        > >
                        > > or the temple. The construction of the dam at Qumran and of the rock-
                        > > cut channel required the sort of labour and financial resources,
                        > > technical expertise and determination demonstrated by Herod in other
                        > >
                        > > of his building projects and should be associated with his expansion
                        > >
                        > > of the settlement in 31 BCE. The recent excavations of Magen and
                        > > Peleg would appear to confirm this date.
                        > >
                        > > David Stacey
                        > > UK
                        > >
                        > > --- In ANE-2@yahoogroups.com, JEFFREY A BLAKELY <jblakely@> wrote:
                        > > >
                        > > > Good Morning
                        > > >
                        > > > Barrage dams feeding sluices and watering fields were a bit of
                        > > a "doodle" by even 1200 BC in Yemen. If you look around Saba and
                        > > Qataban evidence for them is all over the place in remnants and in
                        > > agricultural fields built up by the silt in the runoff produced
                        > > during floods. If you want a good example see the Marib Dam, a truly
                        > >
                        > > massive dam capable of taking on an incredible deluge and a dam that
                        > >
                        > > was in use for over a millennium. It is hard to believe that the
                        > > knowledge did not reach the other end of the trade route.
                        > > >
                        > > > Jeffrey A. Blakely
                        > > > Madison, WI
                        >
                      • JEFFREY A BLAKELY
                        Clearly there is nothing at the Qumran dam site that identifies Herod as the builder, or maybe better the conscriptor since I doubt he personally built it.
                        Message 11 of 20 , Mar 4, 2009
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                          Clearly there is nothing at the Qumran dam site that identifies Herod as the builder, or maybe better the conscriptor since I doubt he personally built it. One can certainly reconstruct a Herodian construction view from the extant evidence, just as one can reconstruct a sectarian construction view from that same evidence. We may differ on which is more likely. I will certainly agree with David, however, "I know I wouldn't have liked to have been one of the labourers involved." Its hot down there. On the method of construction, I would guess slowly and carefully during a dry season lest it be washed away. Beyond that we have no evidence.

                          Best wishes,
                          Jeffrey A. Blakely
                          Madison, WI


                          ----- Original Message -----
                          From: dastacey62 <DAVID.STACEY63@...>
                          Date: Wednesday, March 4, 2009 3:03 am
                          Subject: [ANE-2] Re: daming [formerly ink from a Dead Sea Scroll ...]
                          To: ANE-2@yahoogroups.com


                          > In June 2007 I visited the site of the dam a couple of weeks after a
                          > particularly ferocious flood had cleaned out the whole basin down to
                          > bedrock (and killed two abseilers lower down the wadi). The entrance
                          > to the aqueduct some 4 or 5 metres higher was completely inaccessible,
                          > not only to an old fart like myself, but also to a young and agile PhD
                          > student I was showing around. How exactly the dam was built is hard to
                          > reconstruct. Presumably the stones were quarried in the basin itself
                          > but there was little room for a ramp to get them to the upper courses
                          > of the dam - I know I wouldn't have liked to have been one of the
                          > labourers involved - perhaps as it's apparently so insignificant a
                          > construction project you have ideas as to how it was built?
                          >
                          >
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